Quickies while Flying

[tiggermoth]

Jeyes Quickies remove permanent marker from Charts

My wife was cleaning off her nail varnish on the sofa with little pads from a pink container. What on earth are they? "They're Quickies". Quite simply, they are cotton pads impregnated with acetone (nail varnish remover).

http://www.jeyes.co.uk/images/brands/Quickies-Range.jpg

So as quickly as she said "get off" I got one of those permanent CD/DVD marker pens, put a mark on my 1:500 000 chart, and then with one wipe of one of these Quickies. The box it comes in is in a hideous pink box, so chaps hide these deep in your flight bags. The box does reseal, and I can resuse a pad several times (it comes with 20 pads inside). They cost about the same as a pint, available (I'd imagine) in most high street chemists and superstores.

I've tried dry whiteboard type pens which just wipe off, but they wipe off a bit too easily, and I've also used the technique of writing over permament marker with a dry wipe marker too (works well). I've also used nail varnish remover and a kitchen roll which is fine too, but can be a bit messy and smelly and it may not get past security.

No, I don't work for Jeyes, and no I don't wear nail varnish as a rule!

[tiggermoth]

I've just done a search about and find that Numark and Superdrug do their own brand of pads too, which I'd imagine work just as well.

[DX Wombat]

May I suggest you be VERY careful when using acetone / acetone impregnated tissues in a closed environment it is an extremely flammable substance and can also give you nasty headaches (amongst other things). You could always get some non-acetone nail varnish remover, make your own pads and keep them in a leakproof, airtight container. They would probably be a bit cheaper too and the lads wouldn't need to worry about what colour the container was :O as they could choose their own. :E

[dublinpilot]

These seem to work quite well too. (http://www.ukdvdr.co.uk/shop/Amps-CD-DVD-Permanent-Marker-Pens-4-Pens-4-colours-+-Eraser-pr-19021.html) The white one, is an eraser....you simply shade over your existing line, and then wipe it off with a cloth.

A lot cheaper than permanent pens in the aviation shops too.

dp

[BRL]

Quickies while Flying

Am I the only one who expected a thread about joining the mile high club in a small aeroplane!!!!!!!!! :D

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Am I the only one who expected a thread about joining the mile high club in a small aeroplane!!!!!!!!! :D


Guilty as charged M'Lud

[Whirlygig]

Am I the only one who expected a thread about joining the mile high club in a small aeroplane!!!!!!!!! :D
Nope! I was looking forward to smutty banter involving joysticks and cyclics :O

However, back to the subject; surgical spirit works and is dead cheap!

Cheers

Whirls

[ShyTorque]

Whirls, I think you've been warned before about not spilling your drinks on aviation charts. :E

[Whirlygig]

'SOk, now that I carry a small bottle of white wine with me, I can easily get rid of the red wine stains on my charts!

And if you want to get rid of tea stains in your mug, use a steradent tablet but never use bleach as it destroys the structure of fine bone china!

Cheers

Whirls - Queen of the handy household hints!

[Whirlybird]

Am I the only one who expected a thread about joining the mile high club in a small aeroplane!!!!!!!!!
Moi??? Would I have even thought of something like that, when I hurriedly clicked on this thread immediately after returning from a long day getting soaked at the airfield? Err...do I even know what you mean? ;)

However, I have kept Tesco's nail varnish remover pads in my flight bag for years and years. Doesn't everyone?

[davidatter708]

Permanent markers, kitchen roll, spray bottle with meths in works just fine.
David

[englishal]

My wife was cleaning off her nail varnish on the sofa
I hate it my wife does that.....Especially as I get a b*llocking for not taking my shoes off when I put my feet up on the sofa....

[Lister Noble]

[QUOTE=tiggermoth;3053722][B]
e). They cost about the same as a pint, available (I'd imagine) in most high street chemists and superstores.
QUOTE]
Tigger,
Where do you live,it sounds quite interesting?
Lister:D :D ;)

[mad_jock]

I am willing to bet a fiver that these things will never catch on in PFA circles.


Mind you I have yet to see a member put a line on a chart. If the CAA made the bold step forward of putting real ale pubs symbols on the charts it could possibly double the number of members that carry an up todate chart. And half the number that become unsure of thier position. ;)

[Cusco]

I still have a coupla boxes of medi-swabs left over from the part-time job when I retired a year or so ago. (you know - the individually wrapped 2cm square swabs impregnated with iso-propyl alcohol that your doc -or usually nurse nowadays- cleanses the skin with prior to taking blood)
They work well, don't fill the cockpit with fumes and when sealed seem to stay moist for ever...........
Safe flying
Cusco;)
Should have added that they get chinagraph marks off a treat too...............

[ShyTorque]

From a few years of experience, I've noticed that brown coloured permanent pen marks are the most easily erased. Conversely permanent blue marks can stain the film covering forever, if left on the chart too long and will not come off, even with a solvent, because the ink actually combines with the plastic.

Having said that, I've got a little cardboard box containing almost a gross of brown chinagraph pencil lead refills in my personal stash, so I don't use permanent marks very often these days.

I use mainly just track lines marking the chosen route, sometimes with miles to go leading to the turning points, if I've got time.

[scooter boy]

I have never felt the need to draw a line on any chart ever (except during PPL training).

The GPS draws it for me,:E


SB

[BEagle]

Good old chinagraph pencil - comes off with a damp cloth!

And you're right about brown permanent marker. But it looks like sh..!

But these days, it's just a quick chinagraph line on the chart, measure the track and distance and MDR the heading and time. Put the waypoints in the GPS, confirm the CDI bar is centered, look out and enjoy the view!

[Whirlygig]

I have never felt the need to draw a line on any chart ever (except during PPL training).

The GPS draws it for me,:E


SB
...and what happens if your GPS fails? :}

I've only used GPS once; I still do me nav the old fashioned way - hence the reason I have tried all sorts of dangerous substances to remove my track lines from my charts (and the red wine stains!!).

Cheers

Whirls

[mad_jock]

I think the shops are the worst though for some of the nonsense out there.

I have heard the sales spiel in that spotter shop in Leeds and in transair in London about pens and charts.

In fact someones dad asked me in Transair while I was waiting with my ickle red day log book and a couple of black chinas. What the hell the guy was on about. I really didn't have a clue why you would need even 5% of what the guy was on about. The sales persons heared me and in a very sarcastic tone asked me what I knew, seems you need about 2 charts, a pack of permant OHP pens, a pack of none permant OHPs, some gizzmo to work out circuit directions, a thing which was mask for fan lines and circle thingy's, vor thing's which you stick on the chart, a normal square, a foldy ruler thing and a postitive flight bag full of ****e which I wouldn't use.

My reply of 700 hours as an instructor and all you need is a china graph, a thumb which god gave you anyway, a chart, a square and a stopwatch if you were gay didn't go down to well. The dad had a laugh though just cut his CC bill down from 125 quid down to 25 quid.

[BEagle]

Which brings me on to b£oody 'kneeboards' and 'PLOGs'.....

I just use an A5 spiral top notebook with a biro shoved though the spiral. It'd be nice if someone sold a small, basic aluminium board which held a standard (e.g. WHS) A5 book and a pen or two and had a proper leg strap, not a weedy piece of elastic and velcro. All you can find in the Wannabe shops is either hinged padded foldy-uppy things with plastic insert pages, morse code and quadrantal diagrams, stopwatch holders etc - and those overcomplicated 'PLOG' forms. I do the planning on the ground, then china the leg headings and times and visual fix times, plus average w/v and max drift onto the chart. Work out any revised ETA in flight using the laminated back of the checklist (which also has a half-mill scale on one edge) and a chinagraph.

I hate those awful permanent pens with removable tops. They require 2 hands - what do you do with the top in flight? I've seen students try to stick them in their mouths - which guarantees a radio call.....:rolleyes: Chinagraph or clicky ballpoint (especially the WHS ones with a rubber grip which is exactly 10 miles on a half-mill!) are both topless.

Topless is the only way - which, I guess, brings us back to 'Quickies while flying'...:E ?

[Bertie Thruster]

Like Shytorque I too have a stash of chinagraph leads from a previous existance, but the present job often gets messy and I need a permanent marker for my kneepad, but one without a top!

Sharpie RT: its a clicky permanent felt tip. Most office stores stock them.

[mad_jock]

BEagel why don't you go into production? Or point an FI in the direction of some extra cash.

Local fabricators with a flow cutter and get them to cut out 10 or more rounded rectangles of your design (more you do the cheaper it is). Remembering a couple of slots for some manly elastic.
If you really want to go for it get them to cut and bend some plate to form a surface for your thigh with the elastic holes in it instead.

Rivet the thigh bit on underneith.

Rivet a suitable clip to the top of it.

Using the handel of a McFLurry spoon, cut the spoon off then glue the handel to the top or underneith what ever takes your fancy, left or right handed versions are dead easy. Thats your pen holder if you want more pens eat more ice cream.

Then ask a girl whats the best way of attaching the elastic.

Depending what buckles etc you use with the strap I can't see it costing more than 35 quid.

Metal 10 quid
Flow jet and bending 15 quid each.
Rivets, clip etc 5 quid
McFlurry 1.50 (the ice cream is a bonus)
Elastic velcro etc 5 quid.

If you use hillwalking quick releases instead of velcro maybe 35-40. And its got to be better than the 20-40 quid plastic jobs which fall to pieces after 6 months.

Then flog them in the club or on ebay for 50 quid or paint them mat green and flog them for 60 quid (you could do a special pink one for a certain person.). I sould imagine there might be quite a market for them especially as they might help rotary pilots as well.

If you don't want to do it and there is PPL out thier that owns a Fabrication shop I will be quite happy to knock some drawings up for 2 quid to the Poppy appeal per unit. There is also a need for just a plain AL A4 board with a clip on the top for IR work.

[BEagle]

What's a 'McFlurry'?

[chevvron]

Sorry, saw the title 'Quickies while Flying' and got completely the wrong impression! (thought it was something to do with the 5 Mile high' club)

[mad_jock]

Thinking about it.

I will nip down to a sheet metal shop tomorrow and price it out making some A5 ones with a thigh form on the bottom. And also some plain metal A4 IR knee boards.

Whats your wish list for it?

How thick do you want the strap?
Do you want elastic and velcro or webbing with a quick release?
How much grip do you want the clip to have?
What surface do you want? Dipped in plastic or plain metal?

A McFlurry is something that the peasants eat in McDonalds. It comes with a tapered plastic spoon which is hollow. It is the perfect size for a pen holde. I can't claim the invention rights for using them for this. They have been glued to various aircraft I have flown.

[BEagle]

Webbing with a quick release sounds good! :E

Clip should be a u-shaped spring thing to trap the spiral:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/board.jpg

(That's my old one before I got fed up with it and the feeble 25mm knicker elastic and velcro strap fell apart! You can see I ripped the useless bits off!
Roughly 150 mm wide if you include some sort of pen grip thing (single or double), by about 230 mm high.

Plastic dipped - blokish black or princess pink would be fine. Strap about 40mm wide?

[tiggermoth]

I believe it's frozen stuff resembling ice cream. The spoon that comes with it is used for 'dosing' things into it.

An Alternative from Boots at £1.40

An update on Quickes again, we went into Boots yesterday to look to see if there are any other alternative products. The "Quickies" sold in the particular Boots were at £1.99, but they sell their own brand "Conditioning Nail Polish Remover Pads" (15 Pads) at £1.40.

I bought some of the Boots pads (or should I say, I slipped them into my wife's basket :rolleyes: ). Just tried them on my chart, and the pads are about half the area of the Quickies, and they seem 'over wet' so they do wipe away the permanent marks on the chart brilliantly, but then you need something else to mop up the inky solution.

Not Flammable

A correction to my original post the Quickies (and the Boots equivalant by the way) are both "Acetone Free" and contain Butyrolactone. Butyrolactone is a common industrial solvent which is stable, low odour (low volatility) and is not classed flammable (by the US classification, "Flammability 1") unless heated. It is obviously wise to take as much precaution with these products as the ladies who use it (and some gents I'm sure) by making sure you have adequate ventilation for health reasons.

As I'm still a boy at heart, I lit one of these, and I was very unimpressed. Granted, the vapour was probably above the HEL (Higher Explosive Limit).

[mad_jock]

And the strap?

Do you think one thick one would be best say 40mm or one top and one bottom at 15mm?

I will suss out 3 options,

A plain one without any thigh form and strap/s? attached underneith with the pen holder on top. I will make the pen holder bit and the clip multi handed with holes to suit both handed people. And just leave it so the user bolts the bits on how they like with M3 grip nuts and bolts. Also allows people to replace bits when the springs go on the pen holders or the clip goes. I can also put a couple of holes down the side in case people want to side grip thier paper.

A thigh form one strap/s through the form and pen holder underneith again with the holes to suit either hand.

And a A4 drilled for sideways or up down with again some holes for a pen clip either side.

H'mm just to note if I do start making these things a suitable cut of any profits will go to the poppy appeal or the RNLI or we can make them officail PPrune products and Danny can have his cut.

[tiggermoth]

Do you need a strap at all?

I just glued (With Uhu glue) some of that anti-slip rubbery matting stuff to the underside of my ordinary A4 clipboard, my pen clips (using its own clip) on the bit that sticks out for the clipboard used for hanging it up.

The non-slip bit, available from the RNIB (http://onlineshop.rnib.org.uk/display_item.asp?n=11&c=0&sc=0&id=1954&it=1&l=3) (for example) or on good sized rolls from the likes of Woolworths, and if you have them in your neck of the woods Wilkinsons.

The clipboard doesn't shift for me during normal or utility manoevers (not tried it for spins though).

My stop watch I attach to the clip bit of the clipboard with a loop of elastic material.

[mad_jock]

Thats a good idea.

I might be able to dip the whole thing in something similar.

Whats it like to write on?

[tiggermoth]

Whats it like to write on?

I only glued the back of the clipboard with it, so your'e writing on essentially a normal clipboard.

[mad_jock]

Can you just flip it over and try writing on it.

The boards are going to be plate metal. And its easier to have both sides covered with the same stuff. Also means that if the covering wears out on one side you can just take the bolts out and flip it over and start afresh.

[tiggermoth]

No mine is the "bobbly variety" of non-slip map (it's got holes in it) a bit like this:

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10085043/Dashboard_Anti_slip_Mat.jpg

The RNIB link was for a Dycem material (http://www.dycem-ns.com/prodgeneral.html) which is smooth it appears which also I suppose would be easier to write on

[tiggermoth]

Mad_Jock,

From RNIB website (http://onlineshop.rnib.org.uk/display_item.asp?n=11&c=0&sc=0&id=1954&it=1&l=3): Dycem non-slip mats help children to concentrate on the academic or fun elements of activities eg. Stabilising writing paper, toys, games or puzzles as well as avoiding sliding elbows during play or writing.This implies that this Dycem stuff is fine for writing on. :)

http://onlineshop.rnib.org.uk/local_images/products/thumbnails/tn_dk33uy8163gy.jpg

[mad_jock]

Right thats sorted then.

I am quite looking forward to getting it sorted tomorrow.

Think I will suss out the two easy ones first.

An A4 board covered both sides for IR. (Because thats the one I will be using)

An A5 with 40mm web strap covered both sides so it sticks to your trousers so the strap won't have to cut your blood off to keep it in one place.

Any ideas how many of them I should make? I will see how much it is to setup the flow jet I have a suspiscion that once it's ready to go each one will be buttons on top of the metal.

I can't see them being more than 25 quid for the A4 board and 30quid for the A5.

[matelot]

I can't believe there's two pages of thread here on the nitty-gritty of bugger all! :ouch:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

MJ - Excellent
I can see the ad campaign now:
Designed by instructors For future instructors......
or
It looks crap but it works.............
or if transair end up selling it.
"Never get lost again....."
or
"Now modified to include the GPS mounting bracket and handy fire extinguisher holder" :rolleyes:
The schools are just as guilty of selling sh1te to students, they all get their monthly visit from pooleys to stock up on "Circuit pattern joining computers" I suppose if people arn't flying their aircraft they need to make a few quid somewhere

[BEagle]

madjock - those prices are way too high. Reckon on around half your figures - including a £1 donation to RNLI or PPRuNE.

[mad_jock]

Sourced some of the high stick stuff in sticky back roll. Sent an email to try and get a sample. Looks like its going to be royal blue or yellow.

pen clip holders are a piece of piss.

Nuts and bolts will be dealt with locally.

Need to find a decent spring clip for the top.

Might have to do a special instructor/captain version with a bead around the outside so you don't cut the students/FO to the bone when when you belt them with it.

BEagle they will be the top end prices. The problem is the setup costs of getting the sheet cut. Once I have done it once it will cost alot less.

The webbing and clip will cost 2 quid, pen clip 3 quid, 4 quid for the covering, document clip for the top 2 quid. The rest is the setup costs and metal. I very much doudt though we can do it for 15 quid.

[tiggermoth]

Mad_Jock,

While you've got a CNC machine making these things, you may as well score a mark every inch and a half or so (is it?) to denote 10nm on 1:500 000 charts too. :rolleyes:

By the way if you end with non-slip material AND a tourniquet (aka. strap for leg) then is it possible that you won't be able to move your legs at all?

Perhaps we should nonimate a name for the product - 'Jockboard'?!

[mad_jock]

It won't be a CNC mill

A flow jet is a very high pressured water jet with bits of sand in it. The CNC bit once loaded can just repeat on a plate. So once its steup you hit the button and come back 10 mins later and every thing cut and no nasty edges to sort out. Only limit is the size of the plate and the machine, I will have to see what the min hole size they can make. I suppose I could try and see if there is a laser cutter about. I have never worked that much with thin section Aluminum but I know its a bastard to weld, extremely high melting point, conducts heat fast so there might be problems with thin sections warping and a laser.
I will have to ask and see what they say.

We will see whats available. The Al ones you can buy from the flight shops are about the 15-20 quid mark. But have knicker elastic and bare metal.

While surfing for cover materials I found some magnetic plastic sheet so it looks like the IR board will have a chess board on the back in the middle surrounded by non slip. Will ship with a garantee that it will piss your fleet manager off.

The reason for putting non slip on the back is to use it as the main method to stop it moving, so it shouldn't need to be to tight, the webbing I found is course weave 38mm with a 40mm quick release bayonet type buckle. There is 38mm elastic webbing as well, I will see if I can con a couple of test samples out of them.

Only thing I am struggling on is the clip for on the top to hold the paper work. The only ones I can find are Stainless steel ones for food clip board's and they are huge

http://www.teknomek.co.uk/stainless-steel-product/clipboard-179c0.htm

Also I don't like the idea of a huge bit of sharp metal sticking up like that. I can imagine how quickly the ball booting will start when windows start getting scratched.

Can anyone think what you would call them? Or know of a supplier who would have them.

At the moment I can only find complete clipboards with what I want on them.

I am intending to bodge together some demo models using some plate hand made, some bits from the local chandlers and butcher a cheap clipboard, experiment at work and see what works best. If it stays put and doesn't cut the blood supply off with the wx we are getting next week it should do an instructor/ppl no probs.

[mcgoo]

http://i5.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/82/67/52ba_1.JPG

I use this ex US military one, it has built in pencil holders, pencil sharpener, light, decent thick leg strap, clips top and bottom and wire ring pen/pencil holder at the top, you can get them for about $20 on the US Ebay

[mad_jock]

Something like that but lower profile so you can use it with a yoke without fouling it. You got admit that will hurt if the student does a control check and you don't spot it in time and it gets you in the nuts.

That strap won't be a problem.

And I will do it so everything is replacable.

No pencil sharpener and definately no light.

[ShyTorque]

Can you also do a super-deluxe version with a drinks holder, please? ;)

[mcgoo]

You got admit that will hurt if the student does a control check and you don't spot it in time and it gets you in the nuts.


Don't keep your nuts on top of your thigh then!

[mad_jock]

Shy do you fancy being the tester for the rotary perversion types?

I will try and make 3 tomorrow if Beagle has one for Fixed wing instruction, I can do the fixed wing commercial, I just need a rotary type for the third and as I don't have a clue what you guys need or do (can you even write anything?) do you need a couple of extra tech board clips on it to hold the chart?

mcgoo its the back and to the right which lifts the corner and shoves back and makes your eyes water. And its only some of them that do it. I presume the left handed ones.

[Bravo73]

MJ,

I would also be more than willing to help out with the rotary version.

I fly slightly smaller aircraft than ShyT so it might be more applicable to the instructor/PPL(H) end of the market.

PM me if you want.

B73

[mad_jock]

That can you even write anything came across as a bit rude.

It was meant to be along the lines of you have both hands full most of the time.

what do you do with your charts in a heli?

I could stick a couple of these on so you could hook the chart over the top of your paper work but still let you lift it up to see the log.

http://www.springmasters.com/sp/images/drawing-board-clip.jpg

[ShyTorque]

Mad Jock,

I'm always delighted to say yes to a freebie, of course.

To be honest, for me there is no need to include a chart clip. My chart is folded and put next to me in a safe place (slotted between the centre console and the usually empty left seat) and only used for short periods as required. I think it would get in the way if clipped onto the board as I keep it folded to a size somewhere between A5 and A4.

And I might spill me drink on it ;)

[Whirlybird]

mad jock,

I'd also be happy to test your rotary version....the one WITH a clip or two for the map. Maps are a bit of a problem in an R22. I stick mine under my left arm, or by the side of the seat. But students just starting on nav have a real problem trying to fly and reach for maps in strange places at the same time. So they trying putting the map on top of the clipboard, and of course it falls off..... I haven't found an answer as yet.

Other rotary thoughts, especially for R22 pilots - needs to be narrow; I think the one I have, which Pooley's do, is even narrower than A5. I used to have one of those ex-mil ones with the pencil sharpener and light, but it's too thick; otherwise it was great. Pooley's trifold helicopter one is the nearest I've found to the perfect rotary kneeboard, but again, some people think it's too thick.

I'll be happy to test yours out on a couple of students if you like.

[unfazed]

I buy erasable water based marker pens which simply wipe off with no need for vast amounts of nail varnish remover......am I missing something here?.....is this a fraternity hooked on vapours ?:E

[mad_jock]

Between the two (R22 types) of you decide what dimensions you want.
Just about to go out and see if i can nick some metal.

And I have sussed out a drinks holder shy a suitable nice slot in the top corners which can take the handle of a thermo mug or a can holder for the car so it hangs there against your leg.

[Bravo73]

MJ,

I haven't consulted with Whirly (I'm guessing that she might be out flying today) but here are some of my thoughts on design:

Size - I like BEagle's idea of being the correct size to hold a standard 'Shorthand Notebook' (205mm x 127mm). A5 can tend to be a little bit too big, especially if the board is actually attached to your leg.

Features - Like ShyT, I wouldn't want to be able to actually clip a chart to the board. Due to space constraints in most helis, charts have to be folded very carefully and these are then stored in one of a number of secure places (dependent upon the aircraft type).

However, there are 4 main things that I use my kneeboard to carry:
- A5 laminate sections of the local area from a 1:250k chart. Saves me having to carry a full chart for training and trial lessons.
- 'Plates' for all the local airfields. Well, not 'plates' as such but A5 photocopies for the local fields from Pooley's in case I need an unscheduled diversion. Saves having to carry a full copy of Pooley's.
- 'Frequency Reference Cards'. Both the Southern and Northern England versions.
- A couple of sickbags. Just in case a trial lesson student should need one and there aren't any to hand in the aircraft.

(Any of the A5 laminates can obviously be trimmed to fit your board size).

All of these can however be kept safe by a single clip at the top of the board.


Strap - Ideally this would have a double purpose. If not being used to strap the board to your leg, then the strap would be able to be doubled back on itself in order to keep all of the above sheets tidy.

Non-slip rubber - a great idea! It might even negate the need for a strap altogether.

re writing in helis - unless you are left handed, this can be very hard to do! Most clearances and the like have to be stored in memory (and then repeated very quickly!). I find that I can only write anything down if the helis is on the ground.


I currently use a folding kneeboard as mentioned above by Whirly (Pooley's trifold helicopter kneeboard (http://www.transair.co.uk/product4.asp?SID=2&Product_ID=959)) although due to the size, I rarely (if ever) actually attach it to my leg.


I hope this helps and makes a bit of sense!


B73

[davidatter708]

I use a bulldog clip Couldn't you too as they are one handed operation. Also thinking of Whirlybird's students it would work if Attached to a board strapped to the leg.
David

[tiggermoth]

I buy erasable water based marker pens which simply wipe off with no need for vast amounts of nail varnish remover......am I missing something here?.....is this a fraternity hooked on vapours ?:E

I didn't know you could get erasable water based marker pens - do they stay on quite well? (ie. does the mark stay on without being accidentally rubbed?)

[London Mil]

Like most military types, I just throw my chart away at the end of every flight and furnish myself with a new one for the next.;)

[Bravo73]

I use a bulldog clip Couldn't you too as they are one handed operation. Also thinking of Whirlybird's students it would work if Attached to a board strapped to the leg.
David

Yep, always use 1 or 2 bulldog clips to keep the chart nice and tidy. But the point is that the chart generally doesn't need to be attached to the kneeboard.

Although, thinking about it, some sort of non-slip rubber strip on the upper surface of the clip might be useful to stop the chart sliding around if you do rest the chart on the board.

Does this make sense to you, MJ?

[mad_jock]

I stuck together a wide one and a narrow one today.

One hurdel I have discovered is locally a CNC profile cutter is a bloke with a calculator in one hand and an acetylene torch in the other. But after todays playing it should be no probs doing batches of 10 once I have made a jig up.

O well just been spoiled in Aberdeen where spark eroders and CNC gear is ten a penny and can be hired for bottles of whisky. Will have to wait until I am next through there. I had forgotten what it was like not to be able to wander around to a mates work or fire the MASHY wagon up.

I think the techy drawing clip will be best along with the bulldog clips as normal. You don't want it to secure it, just hold it. And the clips can be bent so that all you need is to give it a one handed push and its held but can be free'd up without fiddeling with anything. I am just going to clamp it with the grip for the webbing or the clamp for the pen holder in the oppersite corner from the one your using. So its pretty easy to shift it if you don't want it.

Got a sample of that none slip stuff winging its way to me.

Got the webbing from BnQ so all I need now is the quick release and a clip for the top. Hopefully I will have an email tomorrow from a promo clipboard manufacturer with some options.

So far

AL plate is 4 quid for 300mm*300mm*3mm
2m of webbing and some 4mm bolts and lock nuts 3 quid.
And 2 hour's having fun fannying around in the workshop.

So BEagle we might very well get it done for 15 quid.

[rjtjrt]

Knee boards.
The ones near the bottom sound to be of the size people are referring to.

http://www.marvgolden.com/knee-boards/index.htm

[unfazed]

I didn't know you could get erasable water based marker pens - do they stay on quite well? (ie. does the mark stay on without being accidentally rubbed?)

WH Smith or any other similar store sells them right alongside the permanent markers (look and write exactly the same). The line can be accidentally "smudged" but from experience that is rare and does not cause me any problems (not easy to erase the complete track line).

Plus point is that you can easilywipe the chart after the trip without going in search of the meths.:ok:

[SteelCity]

Mind you I have yet to see a member put a line on a chart.

Personally, I would rather use my pen!

[Flik Roll]

For those that insist on using OHP pens, all you really need is the orange or the white steadler eraser, sold in all good stationers. The orange one is harder to come by but its purpose in life is to remove OHP pen marks. Wow. Or just buy a chinagraph.

I personally use throwaway paper maps so have no need :}

[BEagle]

"I think the techy drawing clip will be best along with the bulldog clips as normal."

Not sure what you mean, mj. The top needs to have the same type of sprung clip as shown in my photo, so that it's easy to release the spiral, turn over a new page, then trap the spiral again. A bulldog clip is no good for that - either it's so tight to hold the book that it needs 2 hands to open, or it simply isn't up to the job of holding the book.

[mad_jock]

You will still have your clip when I can find a supplier of them.

There were suggestions that to stop students charts disappearing down under the rudders or what ever they have on helicopters when the student has it on thier knee. A slide grip might help.

Must admit personally made them put it away so they couldn't feature crawl. Some sort of removable clip (instructors won't be wanting it) which could trap the chart but not be a fiddle to release it. The bull dog clips are used by people who don't know how to fold a chart properly. Soon as I saw them being used it was a cert that the diversion was going to need refolding of the chart in the air ;)

[Bravo73]

Ah, MJ. Your last post has highlighted some of the subtle differences between the way that 'we' do it and 'you' do it. I certainly don't want to turn this into a 'us/them, rotary/fixed' issue (there's several threads worth of debate in that alone) but just to quickly summarise:



<snip> to stop students charts disappearing down under the rudders or what ever they have on helicopters <snip>Boats and aeroplanes have rudders. We have tail rotor pedals! ;) (Sorry but bit of a pet hate of 'ours').

Must admit personally made them put it away so they couldn't feature crawl. 'Feature/track' crawling isn't so verboten in helis. In certain circumstances, it should be positively encouraged.

The bull dog clips are used by people who don't know how to fold a chart properly. I'm afraid that that's just wrong. It's a very acquired art to be able to fold a 1m x 1m CAA chart into a usable section that measures about 20cm x 20cm (and to be able to use both sides). There's no way of doing this without bulldog clips.

Soon as I saw them being used it was a cert that the diversion was going to need refolding of the chart in the air ;) Also a 'trick' that I like to use but can be avoided by very careful folding of the chart. Bear in mind that we don't always have to find an airport for our diversion destination!



Essentially, most of these issues come down to the room available in an R22 cockpit ie not a lot. Remember that in flight we don't have access to rulers or whizzy wheels or even often pens; all things that you fixed wing chaps probably take for granted.

Is there anyway that you can go up for a quick spin in an R22 to see things from our perspective? (You're more than welcome to come up with me but you'll have to travel a long way south from Aberdeen!) Maybe even sitting in an R22 when it's on the ground might help...


I hope that this lot has been of help to you and really appreciate the work that you've put into this. I certainly sympathise with you for trying to design the perfect 'kneeboard'. Just look at the number already on the market but still we can't find one which really works... :{


B73

[mad_jock]

Its helped alot, it has been 4 years since I used an A5 knee board in anger. Or even put line on a chart. In fact my AA road map gets used more in the air than a chart. And thats only to find out what something is.

Its not really an effort to be honest, its just good fun. Even if I end up with a couple of kneeboads made, and my own A4 kneeboard for work it will be well worth it.

Got the none slip stuff today and boy is it none slip. There is zero chance of it moving on your leg. In fact if you were to wear shorts it could be rather painfull pulling your hairs out. And it is a cracking writing surface for a single sheet of paper.

Always willing to have a go with the darkside. If you let me know where you are I might be able to swing being rostered for a day charter near by. Hanging around a busy GA airfield is always better than watching telly in a hotel room.

[Pitts2112]

Boats and aeroplanes have rudders. We have tail rotor pedals! ;) (Sorry but bit of a pet hate of 'ours').
B73
Aren't they actually "anti-torque pedals"?
Pitts2112

[EvilKitty]

Aren't they actually "anti-torque pedals"?

Surely they can't both be "anti-torque" as on one hand (well, foot) you're using the torque to your advantage. "Torque control pedals" maybe?

(I was going to say that for students they're concentrating so much the pedals are probably better called "anti-talk pedals" but decided not to go there:8)

[Bravo73]

Aren't they actually "anti-torque pedals"?


Well, technically, they are 'anti-torque device pedals' but that's all bit of a mouthful and the tail rotor is the anti-torque device in most helis so hopefully 'tail rotor pedals' will suffice!

Either which way, they ain't connected to a blooming rudder!!! ;) :ok:


PS MJ - I'll be sending you a PM tomorrow.

[3 Point]

I've used this

www.flyboys.com/kneebwiteycl.html

for years in fast jets, light aircraft' warbirds etc. Works great, holds a standard spiral notebook and costs only $29, pretty chaep at the present dollar rate!

3 Point