cheap flying

[felixflyer]

Hi all

I am a low hours PPL and my last flight of 1 hr 45 min cost me £3 short of £250. :eek:

I would be interested to hear of ways to make flying cheaper and i am particularly interested in the share/PFA route. As i am building hours towards my CPL i am unfortunately unable to fly microlights.

I am based near White Waltham but have just moved here and not called in yet.

I feel i have been paying too much for my flying and am missing out on something. The place i used to hire from up north had no club atmosphere and i just turned up flew and paid then left, i would particularly like to get more involved in club type flying. Any advice?

[stick&rudder]

Fortunately for you you're in the perfect place for share/pfa type flying!

White Waltham's got loads of group aircraft, loads of interesting pfa types (my share's based there) and I've yet to see an airfield rival the club atmosphere. Sitting on the lawn of a summer's evening can't be beaten! They also do a fair few club flyouts (or organise your own!).

[BlueRobin]

Unfortunately you live near London where flying prices can attract higher rates. Agreed part-ownership may lead to cheaper flying, but risks more headaches from maintenance. But you will still attract higher costs due to WW basing fees and fuel. But it is still a saving!

Don't discount other types of flying either

I know somewhere that you can hire a 172 for 84ph tacho but its too far from you :E

[A and C]

Check your PM's

[Captain Jock]

I did not think these two words could ever appear in the same sentence!!

[Rod1]

If you are ok with single seat I think there are some very inexpensive PFA shares in your part of the world. Alternatively you could find a Jodel or similar, which gives you two seats. Up in the midlands there are Jodel shares for around £3k (for 1/6th) with £25 per month and £25 per hour ish. I would assume in your area it will be more but it will still be very low compard to renting a 172/PA28.

Rod1

[englishal]

I bought a quater share of a 160HP Rallye......and now my flying costs me:

£40 per hobbs hour wet. Because we use the hobbs this rate covers fuel and annual maintenance, which tends to be based on tach hours.
£20 per month hangarage
no landing fees
quick to get airborne
Around £500 per year in cash calls for maintenance and insurance

I was lucky and got a share of a really good one which had just been rebuilt from scratch in 2005 (and a nice Breitling paint job ;) ), with only 200 hours on the engine. Beats any PA28-161 in performance, is fun to fly, cleared for certain aero's - not that I've tried any, safe to fly, and good for STOL strips. Oh and has 4 seats. We've had 4 adults in it, but flying two with a bit of luggage on the back seat is the best way to fly.

Love it and it was the best thing I did.

[maxdrypower]

There is always the no equity route . I am fortunate in that I live near manchester and can take advantage of this . Basically I Paid six months deposit of £660 quid then £110 per month and £65 per hour wet for the use of a brand spanking new Cessna 172 equipped with a garmin 1000 glass cockpit , a cessna 172 analogue cockpit and a PA28 Archer , Any of these three aircarft are avail to me via the online booking for members ,its a great system especially for those that cannopt afford a lump sum to buy into a group . My last flight was to norfolk from manchester and it cost me £210 there and back 3:45 min flying time . I am not aware of any no equity groups donw south yet but try going to aircraftgrouping.com and have a look

[englishal]

Bournemouth, Blackbush, Popham here......

http://www.aeronautique.co.uk/

[kevmusic]

I bought a quater share of a 160HP Rallye......and now my flying costs me:



.....erm, how much did the quarter share cost you? And what does 'hobbs' mean?

[englishal]

Hobbs.....hour meter which starts when the master goes on. Pay £40 per hour Hobbs time. Keeps it simple and leaves a bit in the pot to pay for the annuals, as most aircraft maintenance times are done by tachometer hours which, I believe, only start ticking up above a certain RPM or oil pressure or something like that.

You can pick up a quater for around £7000, or less. I paid a little bit more but the aeroplane had just been completely rebuilt, re-painted, new wings, corrosion proofed etc.....so it was effectively a new aeroplane.

[Bandit650]

I know where you're coming from. I did my hour-building in the US. Did 30hrs in one particular week in '96 for example. I would advise investigating a trip to the US - bit more paperwork involved these days in getting a temp FAA ticket AFAIK - but still a smart route. You'll be able to pay for accomodation and flights and still have loads of change for the same amount spent on flying in UK. You'll also realise how comparitively in-accessible GA is over here.:{

WW boats great facilities. But you dont half pay for them. Membership is 300 a year before you get anywhere near an aeroplane.

These new no-equity groups seems worthy of consideration? particularly if you would rather save the capital for the CPL training.

[kevmusic]

Hobbs.....hour meter which starts when the master goes on. Pay £40 per hour Hobbs time. Keeps it simple and leaves a bit in the pot to pay for the annuals, as most aircraft maintenance times are done by tachometer hours which, I believe, only start ticking up above a certain RPM or oil pressure or something like that.

You can pick up a quater for around £7000, or less. I paid a little bit more but the aeroplane had just been completely rebuilt, re-painted, new wings, corrosion proofed etc.....so it was effectively a new aeroplane.

Cheers, English. Very interesting.......:ok:

[A and C]

I see a web site above that requires a standing order payment for a dry rate on the aircraft, by the time that you have put the fuel in the aircraft the rate is IRO £134/ hour.

I could at one time offer a slightly older PA-28 £40/hour cheaper than that but did pilots beat a path to my door............. No most PPL's are just a living in a dream world and talk endlesly about the flying that they are going to do but never do it.

I need 300 hours a year to be able to offer a PA28 Archer for IRO £98/hour wet but even at that price I can't get the 300 hours a year so the £8.80/hour insurance cost will have to be spread over less flying hours as will the parking and annual maintenance costs.

The sad fact is that if PPL,s would stop romancing about flying and get out and fly more the price woud come down, at the moment most of you are paying for the flying that you are not doing

[EGCC4284]

A and C

What do you think of the pricing range for these 152's, 172,s and a PA28.

http://www.aircraftgrouping.com/no_equity_cessna_152.htm

http://www.aircraftgrouping.com/no_equity_cessna_172r.htm

http://www.aircraftgrouping.com/no_equity_pa28_181.html

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=255473

Would be interested in any feedback from you

[englishal]

Whilst many of the non-capital groups don't actually work out any cheaper than renting an aeroplane, they offer two distinct advantages:

1) No daily minimums. You could take an aeroplane and go to Jersey for a week and just pay the hour there and the our back (or so).

2) Aircraft tend to be better equipped, with IFR certified avionics and GPS's etc...

If you paid £110 per month standing charge and then only did 25 hours per year, that increases the cost per hour to £112 per hour, which still isn't a bad rate for a nice aeroplane. However if you drop to 10 hours per year, the hourly rate goes up to £192 per hour....something to bear in mind.

The Twin Star group looks fun...I wonder where it is based? I have just come back from renting one in the USA which worked out in todays money of £115 per hour. The one on that group works out at £140 per hour for 50 hours per year which seems like quite a good deal.......

[A and C]

Most non-capital groups are set up to atract the non-flyers, these people think that they will fly but don,t but still keep up the paying the standing charge.

I know of at least one group that looses money each time the aircraft flys but has a majority of people who fly so infrequently that they are paying all the fixed costs and doing next to no flying.

All I can say is that try getting one of these aircraft on a bank holiday weekend in the summer.

If you can only fly at weekends you will find these are very expencive aircraft in the long run and you will be paying for the weekday pilots cheap flying.

[Rod1]

Do not assume you will lose your investment in a capital group. I have been involved in several group owned aircraft and have generally made cost plus inflation, if not more. The low cost shares are very easy to sell, but be careful as the value rises. Up in the midlands it can be quite hard to sell anything over about 9k.

Rod1

[EGCC4284]

I am not sure, but I think the Twin Star is going to be based at Blackpool.

If you e-mail the guy, he will be able to give you the information.

I do know that as things grow, he is looking at basing other aircraft around the country if he can find anyone interested in helping him look after the aircraft and making sure they are not abused. If anyone is interested, they should give him a call.

I have seen these aircraft and they are very tidy pieces of kit. All less than 6 years old. I do intend getting a share in this outfit when I can afford to do so in the very near future.

As for the moment, I'll keep flying my cheap old (1973) 150 until I get my jet job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.kiloyankee.co.uk/

http://www.kiloyankee.co.uk/info.htm

http://www.kiloyankee.co.uk/gallery.htm

[maxdrypower]

Indeed EGCC they are very nice pieces of kit indeed , As I mentioned in my previous post the 172 sp is brand new and is garmin 1000 equipped , if you have never flown one of these aircraft the kit is amazing . I think the 172 sp is coming up to its 150hr servicing thats how new it is . The other two aircraft are also very well equipped , the archer is very well maintained indeed. The twinstar is slated to be based at blackpool im not sure of the exact figures but will be a standing order of about £175 pm and hourly rate of £110 , find a twin anywhere for that price . Although like you say give craig a ring he will be more thatn happy to explain it to you . You are correct in that the more you fly the more you save . The group also has a forum where you can ask embers questioons or indeed get the gen from craig direct . I love flying the garmnin cessna although it does take the work out of it a bit , if your going long distances its amazing cracking autopilot all linked into the gps. I would suggest getting a flight in it with a group member or Craig and just have a go , I initially flew pa38's-28s with RVR the amount of money i have saved flying these aoircraft is excellent , but just to stress the pint if you dont fly you dont save money

[potkettleblack]

What turned me off buying a share is that it can take an age to sell the thing when you want to get shot of it. If you can afford to hang around 6 or more months to shift a share then great but many of us aren't in that position which inevitably will mean that the share will need to get sold at a loss in order to get some cash back. Then there are the monthly contributions that still need to be met whilst you are trying to sell the thing and if you are horribly unlucky the engine bill that comes around and needs a bit of topping up as the fund is short due to some new EASA regulation.

You really need to step back and take a wider view on what a typical punter will want in order to minimise your risk if you plan from the outset on reselling. For me that left to many variables to consider.

I was all keen to get into a group and hour build in the UK prior to starting my CPL/IR but decided to head to the US instead and will go down the no equity route once I am complete to keep current. Whilst in some cases (but not all) there is a higher hourly rate there is the bonus of no associated risk.

[fireblade669]

Bournemouth, Blackbush, Popham here......

http://www.aeronautique.co.uk/

Newbie here, please don't flame me! :O

Interesting to see that the link above leads to the same website that is advertised every month now in Pilot/Flyer/Loop: http://www.flycumulus.com

I'm a low hours PPL (100) and I have got to say that anything that adds a bit of spice into what (from a newbie's perspective) seems to be an industry being driven into the ground by ludicrous costs and an inability to adapt has to be good, even if it isn't right for me!

I have reached a point where club aircraft don't allow me to do the things that made me get my licence. I'm loathed to buy into a share because, although I've met some really nice group members, it puts me outside my comfort zone being a part owner in an industry I don't know well. I'm sure the politics horror stories I've heard are exaggerated but I just want to pay my money and fly.

What I'm after is value for money, I don't think there is such a thing as cheap flying outside microlights is there?