crossing the irish sea at night in SEP - possible?

[A330 Dreamer]

Hi would a PPL with Night Rating and IMC be allowed to fly for instance glasgow - belfast city at night or would you need to be fully M.E/I.R qualified?

[Kirstey]

Assuming the airport is open not a problem!

Eire requires an IR outside of controlled airspace at night. However you may be able to get into dublin Special VFR if the control zone touches a UK FIR boundary.. i have no idea if it does or not

[Chilli Monster]

What a strange question! What on earth makes you think you couldn't? As the flight would start and finish in Class 'D' the only "decision" you need to make is do you depart and arrive IFR or SVFR (you have both options).

Provided the whole flight is contained within the UK FIR's (which Glasgow - Belfast would be) the requirement for an IR for night flight outside CAS is of no relevance.

[david viewing]

However you may be able to get into dublin Special VFR if the control zone touches a UK FIR boundary..
The Dublin class C does butt right up against the UK FIR at 4500' and above west of Holyhead. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has done this crossing night and special VFR direct Dublin. It would have to be a very clear night to remain above 4500' of course and any lower would put you outside controlled airspace and no VFR at night etc.. I wonder if special permission could be got to cross the boundary lower and enter the CTA as it steps down over the sea?
Even more interesting would be if the expansion of Dublin CTA around Weston means that the flight could route direct Weston special VFR at night? OK I know Weston only operates to the 'end of VFR'.

[Kirstey]

SVFR isn't available in a CTA.. just a CTR

[justinmg]

Slightly confused.
Dublin and Belfast are not in the same place are they?
How does a flight to a different country help?

[bookworm]

How does a flight to a different country help?

How does it help? You haven't been to Belfast, have you?.. ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Johnm]

Does Eire permit might VFR? if so there's no problem, but otherwise you're confined to the UK FIR

Unless you have some instrument qualifications though I'd suggest you don't bother, it's too easy to become disorientated over water at night.

[Chilli Monster]

Unless you have some instrument qualifications though I'd suggest you don't bother, it's too easy to become disorientated over water at night.

1st post PPL with Night Rating and IMC

RTFQ?

[dublinpilot]

Assuming the airport is open not a problem!
Eire requires an IR outside of controlled airspace at night. However you may be able to get into dublin Special VFR if the control zone touches a UK FIR boundary.. i have no idea if it does or not


Well to answer Kirstey's question, the Dublin CTR doesn't touch the UK FIR.

David is correct in that the CTA does touch the UK FIR, but the CTR doesn't, and you are correct in that SVFR isn't available in the CTA.

So no night flights to Dublin, except with an IR.

And in typical Pprune style, we wind up talking about something other than the original question asked! :p

A330D, can't see the problem with the flight all in UK FIR's. Of course adding the risk of a night flight to the risk of a cross water flight puts me into a cold sweat, but maybe I'm just nervous :}

Obviously you'd want to be very comfortable flying on instruments when flying over the sea at night.

dp

[dublinpilot]

Does Eire permit might VFR?
No. Only special VFR within a control zone, with the prior permission of the ATC unit.

[Consol]

Quite correct DP, svfr at night in Ireland is really only used if you need to do some circuits at night and for some helis. It is only in control zones, not all class C. Don't risk flying overwater at night though, the risk factors are higher. This time of year is also not good re ice, ceilings and atlantic fronts etc. Number of alternates at night is also limited and due to our history fields tend to be quite small making forced landings difficult.
Also the name of the country has been "Ireland" for the last 68 years unless you are writing in Irish when it is "Eire".
Fly safe!

[S-Works]

1st post
RTFQ?


Wow! Chilli, you got PMT? I am sensing a lot of hostility at the moment.....:p

[Chilli Monster]

Best you don't ask for an airways joining clearance anytime soon then - you might just find out how much ;)

[S-Works]

:) Best you don't ask for an airways joining clearance anytime soon then - you might just find out how much ;)


Now thats more like the normal chili!!!! :ok: :)

[Kirstey]

Dublinpilot..
The title and A330's question is valid for both bits of Ireland. Belfast was given as a "for example".

This is a reasonably organised, civilised debate with the question well answered.. not really typical PPRUNE if you ask me at all! lol

[H Ferguson]

Also the name of the country has been "Ireland" for the last 68 years unless you are writing in Irish when it is "Eire".
Fly safe!

thank you Consol,

we've also been a Republic since 1949, i find it a bit insulting when people call my country "Eire" as this refers to the whole island ,espiecially by politicians, as it is usually used in a slightly derogatory way not accepting we are an independent country.

[capt ronweb]

I've done it myself years ago in my PPL days and it was no problem during the daytime in good vis and at night, ok if you climb to about 6000 and be assured of a cloud break (well) above the MSA. Make sure you will be in the clear and that the 0D. isotherm is above the cloud level, not much chance of that this time of year!! Take the shortest route,ie Stranraer to Larne area and then follow the coast to wherever you are going. Get the best service you can from ATC and you would be advised to carry a (working) transponder, oh and dont forget to wear your LIFEVEST!!! My advice would be to do the night bit to Belfast, have a pint of the "black stuff" a good nights rest and set off the next day to your destination in the republic. Do a google on irish aviation and you will find loads of helpful info there.Needless to say get some good met advice/info and make sure all is 100% with your flying machine afore ye go!!! It is important to know by way of risk analysis if you like that your chances of surviving a ditching in the seas around these islands especially at this time of year are to put it mildly, poor!! Others would disagree and say they are ZERO.

Anyway I wish you well and I can only say that if you have as much fun flying around Ireland as I did 15 years ago you will be glad you did it.

Aye, Ronweb...............:p

[Kirstey]

thank you Consol,

we've also been a Republic since 1949, i find it a bit insulting when people call my country "Eire" as this refers to the whole island ,espiecially by politicians, as it is usually used in a slightly derogatory way not accepting we are an independent country.


You genuinly find that insulting????????????

I bet you're a barrell of laughs at your work xmas party!!!

[dublinpilot]

I don't believe Eire refers to the island as a whole. At least not since Articles 2 & 3 of our constitution were changed. It refers to the State only.

[giloc]

thank you Consol,
we've also been a Republic since 1949, i find it a bit insulting when people call my country "Eire" ...
Bunreacht na hÉireann must really get up your nose then. From the preamble of the version in English: "We, the people of Éire, ..."

Great thread creep.

[H Ferguson]

Bunreacht na hÉireann must really get up your nose then. From the preamble of the version in English: "We, the people of Éire, ..."

not at all ,but "eire" is sometimes used in a condescending way especially by politicians.

Kirstey i did say a 'bit'...

giloc , great argument name calling.

ok ,rant over

[giloc]

not at all ,but "eire" is sometimes used in a condescending way especially by politicians.

giloc , great argument name calling.

What 'name' is that then?

[giloc]

giloc , great argument name calling.
ok ,rant over
What 'name' is that then?
HF, I see now - you mean 'thread creep'! In addition to being insulted by someone using one of the names provided for by the Constitution of Ireland, you see the term 'thread creep' and assume it refers to you! I think you're trying too hard to find your insults.

[Kirstey]

OK so this more thread creep.

So as a Englishmen.. how am I supposed to refer to the country of which Dublin is the capital?

[giloc]

OK so this more thread creep.
So as a Englishmen.. how am I supposed to refer to the country of which Dublin is the capital?

The Constitution of Ireland says that the name of the state is Ireland or Eire. The Republic of Ireland Act 1948, adds Republic of Ireland as a descriptive name. Take your pick.

Note that "Southern Ireland" was the 26-county state envisaged by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, but it never really functioned, and hasn't existed as a political entity since 1922.

[dublinpilot]

So as a Englishmen.. how am I supposed to refer to the country of which Dublin is the capital?

Well the 'locals' would just call it "Ireland". If the context required a specific exclusion of Northern Ireland then the 'locals' would refer to it as "The Republic of Ireland" or more commonly, simply as "The Republic".

I don't think most people would take any offence at the country being called "Eire" but it does stand out, and identifies you as British (who isn't used to dealing here) straight away. It's just not a name we use in every day conversation.

For some reason I've never known most British people seem to use the Eire version. I suppose that's the version that is taught in British schools?

dp

[H Ferguson]

So as a Englishmen.. how am I supposed to refer to the country of which Dublin is the capital?

Kirstey, Ireland will do fine as this is how nearly everyone refers to it . It would seem that it is a particularly British thing to call Ireland "Eire".

I have absolutely no problem with "Eire " being used as it is used on our stamps and passports. The point i'm trying to make is that "Eire" does have certain condescending connotations dating back to the previous centuary.

[quote:giloc] I think you're trying too hard to find your insults

Giloc i may have taken you up wrong, if so i apologize.

[tyro]

I'm British and I was taught it is called Eire by Miss Harris who was quite good at condescending connotations.

[H Ferguson]

right, there's only one way to sort this out,

let's hire a plane,

fly across the Irish sea,

at night, :uhoh:

in IMC :ok:

now , who's going to fly the plane :)


crossing the irish sea at night in SEP - possible?

[dublinpilot]

I've a better suggestion....

Why don't you guys fly over this direction next summer, we'll show you around, buy you a few drinks, let you chase our women (or men) around Temple Bar, and you see what we call ourselves, when we're all pissed :}

Isn't it time Pprune had an Irish flyin?? :ok:

dp