IMC rating for MP IR holder

[ATP_Al]

Here's a question for you all

I fly for an airline and hold a Multipilot IR but would like to
acquire an IMC rating for private flying in the easiest and most cost
effective way. My single pilot IR has now lapsed, but I passed the
skill test in January 2005 and revalidated it in October 2005. As an IMC
rating is valid for 25 months, could I get one issued on the basis of
either of those checks?

Incidentally, can you still revalidate an IMC rating on the basis of a Multi pilot OPC/LPC, that paragraph seems to have mysteriously disappeared from LASORS!

Thanks,

Al

[swervin'mervin]

Not sure about the OPC/LPC bit, but know for a fact that the CAA will only issue an IMC for nowt if it is applied for with the application for initial IR. After this you have to take an IMC skills test but should be exempt from any training.

[Keygrip]

Conversations with the CAA have suggested that the answer is most certainly "NO!" (as you do not do any limited panel and/or unusual attitude recoveries on the IR-MPA).

They are, however, the singularly most inconsistent company I've ever had the displeasure to attempt to deal with.

I do actually go with the above. Application at same time as IR application and then on each (or relevant) IR renewal/revalidation get the examiner to sign the National Ratings form in your licence.

[S-Works]

My friend fly's for an airline and now only has a Mulit crew IR and can't get an IMC on the back of it. A multi crew IR is "easier" from a workload perspective than Single Pilot IFR and does not have the partial panel and UA type stuff.

But you only have to do the renewal with an Instructor so why not combine it with your 2 year SEP flight with an Instructor and get it signed off?

[LFS]

Not sure what you mean about the renewal with an instructor. The IMC has to be renewed by test with a suitably qualified examiner

[S-Works]

Not sure what you mean about the renewal with an instructor. The IMC has to be renewed by test with a suitably qualified examiner

Thats what I meant. So you do the renewal and you get your hour with an instructor and the IMC renewal in one flight.

[LFS]

Ah, sorry see what you mean now. That would be the most efficient way of doing it.

[ATP_Al]

Thanks for all your replies guys. My feeling is that If I have to do a check, I might as well go all the way and renew my single pilot IR in a FNPT sim.

Cheers,

Al

[S-Works]

did you renew last time in a sim? I think it is alternate renewals in the sim, my next one I can do in the sim.

[LFS]

Thats right, alternate renewals in the sim. However if you let the IR lapse you have to renew it in the aircraft irrespective of what method you last used.

[S-Works]

As a thought does an SEP IR not automatically lapse into an IMC? If your IR was revalidated in Oct 2005 then it ran out in Oct 2006 and so I think you get IMC privlidges to Nov 2007?

Otherwise as pointed out renewing the IR in the aircraft is the only choice it seems.

[Mercenary Pilot]

The new rules coming in will allow your MP/IR to also cover your SP/IR. :ok:

[rustle]

The new rules coming in will allow your MP/IR to also cover your SP/IR. :ok:

Why?

How is a multi pilot rating valid in a single pilot environment?

[ATP_Al]

LFS,

This is where I get very very confused! Whether you have a single or multi pilot IR (or both) you only have the one endorsement on the "ratings to be revalidated" page of your licence, yet LASORS says the two priviledges need to be revalidated separately. So do I:

(a) have two completely separate ratings, one of which is current and the other of which has lapsed, and therefore needs a renewal rather than a revalidations.

or

(b) do I just have an IR, of which the multi pilot part is current, and the single pilot part requires a only a revalidation, because i can still say that i have a current IR(A).

What a pain in the a$$!

Al

[IO540]

I don't know the rules for this but it does come up often among airline pilots I have met.

My recollection, which may be worth checking out, is that if your ATPL is a CAA-issued one then you get automatic IMC Rating privileges for a SE plane.

CAA CPL/ATPL holders get this and it's been around for years. I don't know if you have to apply for the IMCR or whether it is automatic.

If it is a JAA-issued one then you don't get this, although I have read somewhere that somebody managed to get the CAA to give him an IMCR anyway.

I know for certain that a CAA or JAA ATPL (multi crew, one always assumes) does not give you a SE IR - that has to be done with a checkride at least. A friend has just done this.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Why?

How is a multi pilot rating valid in a single pilot environment?

How is it not? Just because you have to operate your own gear, flaps and comms hardly make it enough to need a completely different renewal every year. The fact that a 30,000 hour captain who decides to return to light aircraft after 7 years of flying heavies has to do a CAA IR test on a light aircraft is just ridiculous. Obviously the CAA and JAA agree and are abolishing the rule.

:ok:

[LFS]

IO540 is right that old CAA CPL gives you IMC privileges.

I think there is possibly some confusion between single pilot/multi pilot and SE / ME. Your licence should have separate entries for single pilot and multi pilot IRs and these are two sepeaate ratings which must be revalidated separately. Your single pilot IR will almost certainly be a M/E IR. If you renew this on a twin single pilot aircraft you can also revalidate the M/E rating (a separate rating again) at the same time. If you renew on an FNPT II the M/E must be done separately in an aircraft. Renewing your M/E SPA IR gives you S/E SPA IR privileges. If you are in a position where your SPA must be revalidated on the aircraft (ie it has lapsed) you can do it on a S/E but this would then only give you S/E IR privileges (but would be cheaper) you could then at a later date renew on a M/E if you require.

I hope this makes some sense, I am getting my head confused just trying to write this.

MP didn't realise they were changing the rules, however what I have said is how I interpret things at present.

[S-Works]

No it's not ridiculous, sitting at the front end of a flying office having 3 auto pilots doing the work is very different to hand flying a light single manually. Something goes wrong in an airliner out comes the checklist and TWO people resolve the problem. In a light Twin or single on your own the workload is totally different.

As an IR holder I think it is one of the things the CAA have got very right.

My friend is a 17,000hr training Captain and thinks that having to revalidate is correct.

If your 30,000 hr Captain is that good then they should not be able to take a single crew IR renewal in there stride?

[Fuji Abound]

"Just because you have to operate your own gear, flaps and comms hardly make it enough to need a completely different renewal every year."

No gear on most SEPs but you do have to operate your own flaps and comms.

Of course that is not the issue. You also might have few or any automatics, and no one to organise the plates for you and cross check what you are doing - it is potentially all hand flying with the basic legal minimium instruments and little redundancy. How are your single pilot partial panel skills?

I suspect not many commercial pilots without recent SEP IR time would want to operate in these conditions without some recent currency.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Hahaha...and they say the CAA is the Committee Against Aviation!!! :p

Interesting discussion point though (IMHO).

Believe it or not, we do ACTUALLY have to be able to hand fly the big stuff and also cope with crew incapacitation.

Partial panel skills are also kept sharp with standby instrument approaches...The Saab 340 is by FAR the hardest thing I've ever flown on a partial panel.

Lets not confuse the point of aircraft famility, I'm not saying that the 30,000 hr skipper should just jump in an aircraft and off he goes, the SEP & MEP rating currency will still have to be maintained under the new rules.

MP didn't realise they were changing the rules, however what I have said is how I interpret things at present.

You are correct as the new rules have yet to come into force (as of a month ago anyway). Unfortunatly I still had to do my SP/IR renewal (I have 2 current MP/IR's in my licence). I think they said the amendment will come in 2007 but I could be wrong, it maybe sooner.

[Fuji Abound]

"Believe it or not, we do ACTUALLY have to be able to hand fly the big stuff and also cope with crew incapacitation. "

There is a worthwhile article in a recent Flyer which discusses how well commercial pilots get on hand flying an approach in the sim and the trend towards not testing these skills often enough. Worth a read perhaps :) .

[TCXCadet]

I'm not sure if that article in Today's Pilot was written with UK operators in mind, but the implication that pilots want to practice decompression from altitude, flaps up landing etc. but don't have time is ridiculous!

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1158.pdf
gives the mandatory requirements.

At the end of every simulator session i've done we've had twenty to thirty minutes, AFTER the mandatory items, where we've been asked if there's anything at all we'd like to practice.

[S-Works]

This was not a pop at airline pilots, they are highly skilled and focused individuals but even they should realise in an automated environment you rapidly loose the grass roots skills of handling a light aircraft single pilot in IMC. All of the evidence suggests that these skills erode very quickly.

Every airline pilot I know freely admits that they could not cut the mustard in GA anymore without refresher training. The IR is renewed by test every year, why should an airline pilot be any different just because they are flying multi crew?

I drive a 600BHP car and think nothing of it, when I get into the diesel golf the corners and general handling become very "interesting" I am not used to operating low powered machinary with a minimum of automation. Airliner to spacam is the same concept. I can self teach in the car, far more difficult in IMC.............

[TCXCadet]

I completely agree Bose!

I'm totally in favour of requiring a check before flying GA - i'm the first to admit I wouldn't be happy jumping into the BE76 I did my IR in and heading off into IMC without refresher training! It's purely the article mentioned I disagree with - the points mentioned in it are pretty much the whole reason we're sitting at the front!