FAA to JAA (even UK) PPL

[HyFlyer]

Just completed an FAA PPL......WOW....

Question is how easy or hard is it to transfer this into a JAA PPL...various countries...

France, UK, Switzerland spring to mind immediately where I might fly.

Further, anybody with experience of both systems..how different is the airspace, procedures etc. between the two. Would it be worth me doing a JAA PPL course, or is it very country specific in reality.

Further, my British instructor in USA, told me that whilst it may be legally OK to use FAA licence in UK as it is an ICAO licence, in reality very few flying clubs allow it....in his words due to high levels of snobbishness......

So what's the viewpoint here then?

Thanks


Licenced to learn

[IO540]

You have to sit the JAA written exams, and do the JAA checkride. There may be a bit of flying too, but your FAA PPL night flying should entitle you an immediate night rating.

Further, my British instructor in USA, told me that whilst it may be legally OK to use FAA licence in UK as it is an ICAO licence, in reality very few flying clubs allow it....in his words due to high levels of snobbishness......

He's right about the last bit of course. But you can fly a G-reg on any ICAO PPL, VFR, worldwide (not just UK). See ANO Article 26.

The only thing for which you need a JAA PPL is for flying planes which are neither G-reg nor N-reg.

Airspace is very different. I am sure others here know much more about the USA than me (I only did the IR there, and forgot the US-specific stuff as quickly as poss) but I recall they have loads of "implied" (unmarked) airspace on their charts. On the UK CAA charts it's all explicit, except Class G which is all the unmarked stuff. There is no Class E in England, nor B or C at any levels that will apply to you. No F. Loads of bits of D, and of course tons of Class A.

You need explicit clearance to enter D, unlike the USA's "two-way radio contact" business. Class A you can enter only under SVFR and then only if it extends all the way to the surface (which is relevant mostly only to the Channel Islands).

Radio differs too, in various details. But to be honest many UK pilots are so inept on the radio that if you use your best American calls correctly ATC will be quite relieved :)

The rest of Europe is more or less like the UK, except they have different airspace structures. It's generally easier to get VFR transit through C/D over there, than in the UK. They have different charts, although for the most part you can use Jeppesen VFR charts to cover the area.

I am sending you a PM also.

[gcolyer]

FAA PPL night flying should entitle you an immediate night rating.



Do you mean night qualification?

[HyFlyer]

IO540,

Thanks for public and private answer.

Seems a pity that ICAO can't get sufficiently organised that airspace is treated the same everywhere.......That's the point isn't it?

It drives be crazy the stupidity of all the 'civil servants' and lawyers around the world...messing things up, when it could all be really rather simple.

I was sent a UK to US ATC and radio etiquette translator...but I suspect a lot is rather tongue in cheek.

If I understand correctly.........

1) With my nice new mint FAA PPL legally I can go to a UK or French or Swiss flying club and (after a checkride) rent a N or G/F/CH reg aircraft and fly VFR anywhere in Europe. Day or night. (as my FAA licence is an ICAO licence and therefore should be valid and recognised in any other ICAO country).

However, the UK rules for what is VFR flight, differ slightly to the US rules...in basically having to have the ground in sight at all times, and I would be obliged to follow UK VFR rules in UK airpsace....logical.

Same probably applies to each other country.

2) If I want to transfer my US licence to a UK or any other JAA licence, then I have to do the written test and probanly a flying test..albeit a shorter one.

So I really don't see any real advantage in getting a JAA licence...unless you can point out something I have wrong or misunderstood.

By the way, I did the full TSA check...and no problems. You just have to be very exact with the forms and fingerprinting etc. And pay at each step of the way....again...

[HyFlyer]

By the way, I only have 50 hours so far. Hence I really know that I have a great deal to learn and am not going to be shooting off around Europe on long cross countries at this stage of the game.

My main aim is getting very clear what the next elements I need to learn are, and what if any other ratings I need to be able eventually to fly around Europe for private and business purposes.

Seems like an Instrument rating is going to be vital. Here again I fall into the basic incompatibility between Europe and US definitions of an instrument rating. Having the FAA PPL it really means I will be doing the FAA IR rating....but then trying to transfer the skills (and learn the additional skills) I need to fly in Europe.

Obvious question is why not do a European rating directly. Well two reasons; firstly cost...it is just significnatly cheaper in the US, and secondly time, in that I am fortunate to have the next 6 months or so back and forth to the US. The issue will be to get the required visa for the IR training. Any thoughts as to how difficult this could be ?

[englishal]

Dunno,

but you will also need to meet the requirements of the IR....such as 50 hours PIC cross country (over 50nm)....which may be tricky if you only have 50 hours now.

Cheers

[Fuji Abound]

Interesting topic and without wishing to hijack the thread (but I think the question has been answered) the other side of the coin might also be of interest to many as well as me.

What are your priviliges with a JAR license in an N reg aircraft?

My understanding is within UK airspace you can fly a N reg aircraft in VMC.

I also understand with a JAR IMC or night you can excercise these priviliges as well in UK airspace in an N reg - can that be so, it seems unlikely?

I also understand that it is debatable whether you can fly an N reg in Europe in VMC on a JAR license - but why is there some doubt?

Finally what is the position with your JAR IR priviliges.

I have both FAA and JARIR but if purchasing an N reg for example with only a JAR their might be no advantages in transfering the aircraft to the G reg depending on its intended use, thus saving a lot of complications and potentially two different bienials checks (albeit I know with the "right" instructor you could combine the two).

[IO540]

What are your priviliges with a JAR license in an N reg aircraft?

UK only, but I can't find the reference for this.

My understanding is within UK airspace you can fly a N reg aircraft in VMC.

On an FAA PPL, yes.

I also understand with a JAR IMC or night you can excercise these priviliges as well in UK airspace in an N reg - can that be so, it seems unlikely?

I have in writing from both the CAA and the FAA that the UK IMC Rating is valid in an N-reg.

The "night" question has never been clearly settled as far as I know. This is because in the UK night=IFR (forgetting the SVFR option for the moment) and the FARs require an IR for any IFR flight.

I also understand that it is debatable whether you can fly an N reg in Europe in VMC on a JAR license - but why is there some doubt?

No idea.

Finally what is the position with your JAR IR priviliges.

The JAA IR (with a UK/JAA PPL) is fully valid for an N-reg, but only in UK airspace. Again, I don't have a reference.

[Fuji Abound]

Hmmmm IO much as I understood and thank you.

The interesting ones as you say are whether the night transfers and also the position in the rest of Europe.

The IMC is unhelpful in Europe because it is a national rating, but the PPL and night are not, so it is difficult to understand why these would not transfer.

The IMC also came as a surprise because whilst one can understand why the CAA would accept the rating (after all it is specific to their airspace) why should the Americans accept an operator in "their" aircaft excercising a non ICAO rating, so it is very useful you have it in writing from the FAA.

Also interesting that with the boot on the other foot you could not fly an N reg in America on a JAR PPL.

[IO540]

The UK/JAA night qualification, in an N-reg, should be safe in any airspace where night=VFR. This is the ICAO default. It is the UK that is the odd one out.

The UK situation is one of a number of sleeping dogs, created by one country's regs having been written without regard for the world outside it.

Also a lot of stuff is not enforced. Take all those single engine helicopters flying in the UK at night, with full consent from the CAA :) I still don't know how that works, given that night=IFR in the UK. Practically it is fine of course.

As regards the IMCR, what I got is a letter from the CAA confirming the IMCR is not limited to any specific aircraft reg, and I got another one from the FAA stating they consider the IMCR equivalent to the FAA IR (in the specific context (i.e. UK IFR, below Class A) which I very carefully described in my enquiry to them. You are welcome to this text; you know where to find me :)

Also interesting that with the boot on the other foot you could not fly an N reg in America on a JAR PPL

Yes, I vaguely remember that one.

It's all a mess. But it keeps up the bandwidth on these forums :)

[Fuji Abound]

IO - thanks again - interesting!

Anyone got a view on flying an N reg in Europe on a JAR license please?

[HyFlyer]

Also interesting that with the boot on the other foot you could not fly an N reg in America on a JAR PPL

Yes, I vaguely remember that one.

It's all a mess. But it keeps up the bandwidth on these forums :)



OK, so there really is no point in having a JAR PPL, if you cant use it to fly in USA. Bizarre as it is ICAO and as a member US should allow other ICAO nations to exercise rights in their airspace...... Are you 100% sure of this gottcha....

I ask this, as I cant really afford to keep FAA and JAR licences valid at same time, and yet once I finish current activity in US, will have less access to FAA currency and examiners...by the way, I am NOT based in the UK.....but visit every now and again. Hence big decision is going to be to go for the JAR licence and let the FAA one lapse or just ignore the JAR possibility and fly in Europe on an FAA licence, and try to work my way up the ratings ladder with the US system...even though 80% of use will be in Europe.

Flying is really easy compared to all this legal hocus pocus............How have the pilots allowed the lawyers to take control? Time to fight back I think:-)))
Make all the goddam lawyers walk......that'll teach em!

[HyFlyer]

IO - thanks again - interesting!
Anyone got a view on flying an N reg in Europe on a JAR license please?
I'll see if I can find out. I live near an aerodrome with 3-4 clubs in EU, and believe there is at least 1 N reg aircraft there.

[IO540]

fuji

The reg re JAA PPL privileges in an N-reg will be solely in the FARs. I don't have it handy but should be easy to find. I recall they explicitly allow any ICAO license to be used (and any privileges thereon), in non-US airspace.

I also wonder if anybody here knows why UK night=IFR. It's bizzare. It may be due to stricter separation of IFR/IFR (than VFR/anything) but this doesn't make sense since in the UK there is no real ATS service (i.e. no guaranteed radar) to sub-airways traffic anyway.

hiflyer

Firstly, please read carefully what I wrote re the privileges. Also, don't ever give up a standalone FAA PPL. It lasts for ever. Also, you can add the FAA IR to it (and only to it); the JAA IR is far more work on the ground school (if you think these regs are a muddle, look at the size of the JAA IR study material).

The FAA BFR can also be combined with the JAA 2-yearly check flight, if you get the right sort of instructor.

A lot of European pilots would give a LOT for a standalone FAA PPL. They are hard to do; just about feasible in Europe and going to the USA is such a hassle on the TSA/Visa front. But for a PPL/IR pilot, it's usually the only practical way.

If you are based in say France then you probably can't use an FAA PPL for an F-reg plane, or maybe you can for a period of time if you are not a French national. I remember reading a reg like that - clearly done to prevent loads of French natives dumping their French PPLs.

There is a process for converting an FAA PPL to a French/JAA PPL but I haven't got a clue what it is.

The UK CAA is a lot more generous in this respect, automatically validating any ICAO PPL for use with a G-reg.

[gbpck]

does anyone know if u can validate a FAA CPL in europe like u can in Africa by doing Airlaw exam and a Checkride?
validates it for 1 year

[IO540]

There is no such thing as "Europe" when it comes to aviation regs. Every country has a different procedure. You need to contact their CAAs.

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[Genghis the Engineer]

Coming back to the original question...

Just completed an FAA PPL......WOW....
Question is how easy or hard is it to transfer this into a JAA PPL...various countries...

You can fly VFR in the UK on a G-reg, but to transfer to a JAA licence you'd need to pass some (all?) of the exams and a skills test (checkride). If you go onto the UK CAA website, there's a rather hefty book called "LASORS" that you can download and will give you chapter and verse - for the UK interpretation of European regs anyhow.

France, UK, Switzerland spring to mind immediately where I might fly.
Further, anybody with experience of both systems..how different is the airspace, procedures etc. between the two. Would it be worth me doing a JAA PPL course, or is it very country specific in reality.

Europe doesn't vary all that much, but it is all very very different to the USA. Airspace, RT, airfield procedures, not to mention often the weather, forecasting system, NOTAMs, requirements to file flight plans are substantially different - plus in most of continental Europe they speak to traffic at smaller airfields in the local language.

Oh yes, and Switzerland is full of mountains - seriously big ones, with fascinating local weather conditions. I've flown around mountains a fair bit in Scotland, California and Arizona. On the basis of that experience - there's no way I'd contemplate flying in Switzerland without a hefty dose of learning about the local flying conditions first.


Further, my British instructor in USA, told me that whilst it may be legally OK to use FAA licence in UK as it is an ICAO licence, in reality very few flying clubs allow it....in his words due to high levels of snobbishness......
So what's the viewpoint here then?

He's right IMHO about the fact that many clubs won't accept it (at-least, not without a few hours of instruction if you aren't used to flying in the UK already). This isn't snobbishness (okay, not JUST snobbishness), it's mostly that they know very well that if you've only learned in the USA there is a heck of a lot about flying in the UK you won't know. You will need to spend a reasonable amount of time in UK airspace, with an instructor used to it, to be safe.

Licenced to learn

Good signature, keep that attitude up, you'll be fine.