Temporary FAA Licence based of JAA PPL [Archive]

DaveW

9th Nov 2006, 14:46

Evilkitty's info is correct, and there's a step by step guide here (http://www.atsx91.dsl.pipex.com/aviation.htm), with links to the forms etc - scroll down a screen to get it.

There's no cost at the US end.

Incidentally, the FAA license you end up with isn't temporary - it lasts as long as your JAA licence remains valid - all you have to do extra is undertake the Biennial Flight Review that all FAA PPLs must do every two years anyway.

The 'temporary' confusion perhaps comes from the fact that the FSDO that you present your details at issues you there and then with a 'Temporary Airman's Certificate' (Lasts 90 days IIRC) that allows you to fly immediately i.e. before you get your credit card sized FAA license sent to your home address.

Blueskyrich

9th Nov 2006, 14:55

Ah, that's great - you're all wonderful people! :ok:

Just a little worried as even though I've got a few months to sort it all out, I'm a little nervous about going out there to fly, visit the FSDO, only for them to say 'no licence, on yer bike'! If that happened, I'd be in a little bit of a pickle - so much so, I'm contemplating a little trip out before if needed so I know that I'll be good to go when I'm out there.

This flying lark isn't easy eh??

I promise to update this thread accordingly with updates and experience.

Many thanks,

Blueskyrich

DaveW

9th Nov 2006, 15:10

Don't worry - you get a letter from the FAA at your home address confirming that they've received your details from the CAA, and also confirming that they'll send the relevant internal FAA paperwork to your nominated FSDO (FAA local office) so that they are ready for you.

If there were any problems they should let you know then - the only thing that you need to do is ensure that you have JAA licence, medical certificate and logbook all correct and current when you travel out. If you are really worried, contact the FSDO once you get the letter from the FAA and confirm they have no issues - phone and (I think) email details for the FSDOs are in obtainable via the step by step guide I gave you earlier.

By the way, you will find it helpful to prepare for the Biennial Flight Review (which you'll need to do once you get your FAA license) whilst you are in the UK, to which end I suggest you get hold of a US chart (US "Sectional" = UK "Half Million" is what you want, although US "Terminal Chart" = UK "Quarter Mill" is also handy) before you go. You can then familiarise yourself with chart legends etc.

Even more improtant is to bone up on the regs, for which I'd recommend Jackie Spanitz "Guide to the Biennial Flight Review", which is less than a tenner and available from any random online bookseller named after a large river you might care to mention ;)

Blueskyrich

9th Nov 2006, 15:16

Cool, that sounds like a good way forward. I didn't think it was a simple case of pitching up at the flight school with bag in hand and charts marked up!

In fact, it's a little re-assuring that there are processes to follow i.e. you aren't just let loose in the great outdoors! I'll be staying/flying in the NJ area near to Phily, so I guess the Tetboro office will be my best bet.

Thanks for the info on the books - I'll get on it. :)

cs03dmj

9th Nov 2006, 22:52

...so is there anyway to convert a JAA-PPL(A) to, and obtain a full FAA licence without stepping foot in America? Apologies if that's a particularly silly question, but I have my reasons!

Keygrip

10th Nov 2006, 02:30

'Temporary Airman's Certificate' (Lasts 90 days IIRC)

The TAC, as mentioned in message #4, is valid 120 days.

EvilKitty

10th Nov 2006, 11:34

...so is there anyway to convert a JAA-PPL(A) to, and obtain a full FAA licence without stepping foot in America? Apologies if that's a particularly silly question, but I have my reasons!

I've been wondering the same thing (currently trying to decide whether to finish my PPL in the US and pick up both JAA and FAA tickets at the same time, or finish JAA here and convert to standalone FAA - the simple reason being that long term I'll be in the US and will let my JAA ticket lapse).

Anywho... from what I've gathered, what you need to do is
work out what flight training you need to satisfy the FAA training requirements with a suitable FAA instructor and undertake that training
pass the ground exams
do the flight review and oral examThe ground exams I believe can be sat at Flight Safety International in Farnborough. For the flight training you will need an FAA instructor. If I've understood the requirements correctly, as you already have a JAA-PPL, they do not need to be a JAA-FI (as they are not teaching a JAA rating and you already have the JAA-PPL), but in order to get paid they will need to be a JAA-CPL. I don't think there is a requirement for the aircraft to be N reg. Sean at Eagle Flight in Luton maybe able to help with further info, as I recall he has both JAA and FAA FI, and I'm sure there are others around too (WillowAir comes to mind as one). Searches on your favourite search engine may bring up others. The final part is the flight review and oral exam which needs to be carried out by a FAA pilot examiner. To do this in the UK they will need to be JAA-CPL in order to get paid. Not sure if there are any here or not. Probably the best thing to do on this is to contact the New York FSDO (International Field Office) and they will be able to advise you on whether there is a suitable examiner available or due to visit. I suspect though that a trip to the US will be needed. I'm not sure what the visa requirements are for this as strictly you will not be undertaking training - just a flight review. Probably best to check with the embassy, USCIS and TSA just to make sure. Again the NY FSDO may be able to advise.

The only other thing is that no matter where you undertake training (whether or not the training is undertaken in the USA) for a FAA certificate, you must register with the TSA if you are not a US citizen. This will almost certainly involve a trip to Flight Safety International as they are authorised to carry out the necessary fingerprinting in the UK.

Errors and Omissions exempt. Let me know if I've got anything wrong :)

Arrowflyer

10th Nov 2006, 11:54

Incidentally, the FAA license you end up with isn't temporary - it lasts as long as your JAA licence remains valid - all you have to do extra is undertake the Biennial Flight Review that all FAA PPLs must do every two years anyway.

Actually, that's a common mistake in understanding. There is no need to do the Biennial. The FAA license based on a foreign licenses only requires that the foreign license is valid and you have a current medical. As long as your UK license and medical are valid, that's good enough. Check out the FAR 61.75.

Logically, you can't do a Biennial as you would have to perform flight manouvers (and night flight) that you have not been taught in the UK.

DaveW

10th Nov 2006, 14:30

Actually, that's a common mistake in understanding. There is no need to do the Biennial. The FAA license based on a foreign licenses only requires that the foreign license is valid and you have a current medical. As long as your UK license and medical are valid, that's good enough. Check out the FAR 61.75.

Logically, you can't do a Biennial as you would have to perform flight manouvers (and night flight) that you have not been taught in the UK.

That's not so, Arrowflyer. Indeed, I've been shown the relevant section of the FARs by a CFI in the US. I accept that my authority is somewhat diminished I have to admit, by my not having the FAR para reference to hand, but I assure you it's true! FARs are searchable online, of course.

Any PPL can of course do a Biennial because the format of a Biennial is not laid down anywhere. Your FAA PPL will be marked as "Restricted Use" if your JAA/CAA priviliges don't allow you to do everything a vanilla FAA PPL holder can do - e.g. night, so you simply tell the Instructor "unable". As for un-taught flight manoeuvres, what do you mean?

<Later> I've found the relevant FARs, which are Sec 61.75 and Sec 61.56. I'll quote chapter and verse in a bit when I'm at a machine outside a firewall which restricts post sizes.

Arrowflyer

10th Nov 2006, 15:51

I have been told that as long as the UK license is current, the FAA one is also. Therefore as long as you do your SEP renewal every 2 years for your UK license, you are good to go. I have flown in the States (well California at least) and never been asked for a BFR.

I fly an N-reg and thus was concerned that, at SEP renewal time, I had to 2. One for the UK and 1 for the FAA. I know a lot of N-reg flyers working on this principle with FAA foreign license.

I hope I'm not wrong:hmm:
I think it's one of those things that you get a different answer depending on who you ask.

DaveW

10th Nov 2006, 17:31

I have been told that as long as the UK license is current, the FAA one is also.
Best to think of it the other way around. If the non-US licence is current, then the foundation for the FAA certificate is firm.
Therefore as long as you do your SEP renewal every 2 years for your UK license, you are good to go.

Unfortunately that's not correct - what you are doing here is maintaining that foundation, on top of which needs to be built the FAA's own requirements.

The important thing is that you are flying on your FAA PPL when flying in the US / in an N reg aircraft.

The UK PPL validates it, but the FAA certificate is what makes you legal.

Therefore it is necessary to ensure that all the things required to make the FAA PPL current are also in place. Just because you haven't been asked for your BFR doesn't mean you shouldn't have had it!

This is where the FARs come in.
FAR 61.75 (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/8ea366a0c603b8ca86256959004bccfd!OpenDocument) is concerned with foreign pilot authorizations:
A person who holds a current foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation may be issued a private pilot certificate based on the foreign pilot license without any further showing of proficiency, provided the applicant:
(1) Meets the requirements of this section;
(2) Holds a foreign pilot license that--
(i) Is not under an order of revocation or suspension by the foreign country that issued the foreign pilot license; and
(ii) Does not contain an endorsement stating that the applicant has not met all of the standards of ICAO for that license;
(3) Does not currently hold a U.S. pilot certificate;
(4) Holds a current medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a current medical certificate issued by the country that issued the person's foreign pilot license; and
(5) Is able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.

(An aside: The bit in bold above is, I understand, a fairly common source of misunderstanding at US rental organizations, who are confused if an FAA medical cannot be produced, although fortunately I've never fallen foul of it.)

The point here is that you "may be issued with" the FAA certificate - that doesn't mean it is the end of the story.

FAR 61.56 (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/8E5FD1956A15733586256959004BB274?OpenDocument) deals with the Flight Review:
c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has--
(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor; and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.

Given the provenance of the quote (i.e. the FARs) "Authorized" obviously means "authorised by the FAA", which your UK instructor who flew with you for your JAA "biennial" won't be in 99.9% of cases. In the final 0.1%, he/she needs to sign your logbook with the relevant FAA wording and CFI number.

(Paras (d), (e) and (g) are not relevant to this discussion.)

I hope I'm not wrong:hmm:
Sorry...

I think it's one of those things that you get a different answer depending on who you ask.

It would certainly help if the FAA clearly stated "Foreign pilot? You need to do an FAA Flight Review every 24 months". But they don't, hence the confusion. The definitive answer comes from the FARs, as above

Speedbird48

10th Nov 2006, 19:06

OK Guys,

Before this gets any worse would you like it from the dark side??

YES, you need a Biennial Flight Review. Non of your UK stuff counts.

The US operators insurance will require a valid Biennial. Your checkout will count as a Biennial.

Yes, you need a medical. Your UK license is not valid without the medical and without a valid UK license your FAA vaidation is not valid.

However should your UK medical run out while you are here it has been known and accepted that you get a US medical. Lets start more argument on that one??

Please study for the Biennial as it is about US regulations and airspace not where you come from.

The rubbish about having to fly at night for a Biennial is all BS. In fact your validation "should" have a limitation placed on it to say that night flying is prohibited but few FAA inspectors know that the UK doesn't require night flying for a Private license.

This issue has been hashed so many times that you UK guys should all have it hanging on every hanger wall by now.

Any questions??

Speedbird48

10th Nov 2006, 20:48

Hi Paris Dakar,

I would ask if you were familiar with the FAR's, or even had a copy, to show the people at Bermuda Dunes that you were indeed current and legal?

You made the point that they didn't know what they were talking about, but did you help yourself?? When I appear at Redhill or Popham do they know what my US certificates relate to under UK law? I take a copy of the regulation with me.

There are times when you have to help yourself a little and attitude is everything.

A call to the local FSDO would have cleared it up "IF" they wanted to rent to you. Please remember it is not a right and they don't have to let you have their airplane. Not good business but true never the less.

You are also quite right that being a backwater may have been the problem. whereas one of the larger fields near international airports have seen it and done it all before.

Please come and enjoy our very fortunate way of aviation. Some of us are here to help you??

If you guys need help I would be happy to give guidance but I think it should be via a PM.

Speedbird48

11th Nov 2006, 07:37

Hi Paris Dakar,

Like to try again. I have no PM's at all.

Regards.:bored:

gcolyer

11th Nov 2006, 07:40

Yep, it happened to me!

I wanted to rent an aircraft from an organisation at Bermuda Dunes Airport (CA) last year, and they qouted that exact FAR. The owner of the school was not available at the time of my visit but the CFI & 2 FIs were adamant that without the med cert I couldn't take the aircraft.

I've never had any problem in Florida but they are probably more used to foreign punters coming through their doors than a rural airport just outside of Palm Springs.

I have had exactly the same (different organisation though). Also when I went to the FSDO I had to have an FAA med or they would not issue the TAC.

DaveW

11th Nov 2006, 08:09

FAR 61.75 is explicit on the medical issue as I pointed out at post 15; whilst it may be no surprise that every FBO doesn't know the details of what (to them) may be an obscure FAR, it's infuriating when an organisations reps don't know - or don't check - their own rules, isn't it? :ugh:

Shades of the Special Branch thread elsewhere in this forum!

dont overfill

11th Nov 2006, 08:32

Yep, it happened to me!

I wanted to rent an aircraft from an organisation at Bermuda Dunes Airport (CA) last year, and they qouted that exact FAR. The owner of the school was not available at the time of my visit but the CFI & 2 FIs were adamant that without the med cert I couldn't take the aircraft.

I've never had any problem in Florida but they are probably more used to foreign punters coming through their doors than a rural airport just outside of Palm Springs.
Go along the road to The Flight School at PSP. Andy Dutzi knows the score and hires new aircraft
d.o.

DaveW

11th Nov 2006, 08:36

Paris, no criticism of you intended by me, I assure you - I fully agree; one shouldn't expect to be educating people abut their own rules. :rolleyes: I've never taken FARs to an FBO or FSDO (because I never thought about it) and always been more fortunate than some of you.

Having said that, if I'd read this thread beforehand I just might have printed out the relevant FARs in 18 point font and laid about them with a highlighter pen! :hmm:

Arrowflyer

11th Nov 2006, 10:36

DaveW
Thanks for the clarification.
I am really confused because my CFI in the UK is also an FAA one and has told me that as long as the Uk license is valid, the FAA one is too.

I think I will go back to him and challenge the view. I wonder if anyone has a definitive statement from the FAA

421C

11th Nov 2006, 11:50

I am really confused because my CFI in the UK is also an FAA one and has told me that as long as the Uk license is valid, the FAA one is too.

Your instructor is right. Your FAA license is valid as long as the UK one is, or is valid for life if it's a stand-alone FAA license.

But a valid license is a necessary but not sufficient condition for acting as PIC. This is the source of the confusion. The FAA don't say your license is not valid without a BFR. It is valid without one. You could use it to act as a non-PIC instructor or as a Safety Pilot. But you can't use a valid FAA license to act as PIC without a BFR.

FAR 61.56 is a 100% definitive statement. It doesn't get more definitive than that. It is clearer when you see how it applies to stand-alone FAA licenses, which are equally as valid as your UK-derived FAA license without a BFR, but can't be used for PIC privileges.

Another example is the 90 day rule. This is a further layer of requirement. The valid license and BFR are necessary but not sufficient conditions to carry passengers. Your FAA license being valid because your CAA one is doesn't absolve you of the need for 90 day currency, any more than it absolves you of the need for the BFR.

DaveW - great post BTW -
Given the provenance of the quote (i.e. the FARs) "Authorized" obviously means "authorised by the FAA", which your UK instructor who flew with you for your JAA "biennial" won't be in 99.9% of cases. In the final 0.1%, he/she needs to sign your logbook with the relevant FAA wording and CFI number
FAR61.41 explains the Authorised Instructor definition. Any ICAO instructor is authorised to give instruction towards the requirements of FAR 61 but an FAA instructor is needed for all the endorsements (including the BFR) and some specific recent training (eg. 3hrs in last 60days before the Instrument checkride IIRC)

regards
421C

Speedbird48

11th Nov 2006, 11:57

Ok Guys,

One more time slowly!!

If you have an FAA private certificate issued on the basis of your UK private license it is valid as long as all the parts of your UK one are current and valid.

This has been said many times. Please drill into this subject here in prune.

Any other questions?? PM me.

Sorry guys am I missing something here?? Or, was it a bad night??

Regards.

Speedbird48

11th Nov 2006, 11:59

Thanks 421C,

Very well put.

Much better than my posts. I will now go and fly!!

Regards.

englishal

11th Nov 2006, 20:48

I wonder if anyone has a definitive statement from the FAA
The examiner wouldn't take me on my IR check ride first time due to no BFR logged at the time........

You need a BFR.....

Speedbird48

11th Nov 2006, 21:41

Hi Englishal,

He was quite correct. Fortunatly it was a Designee Examiner as an FAA Inspector would have done the same thing and then gone looking for the instructor that signed you off as being quaified for the check ride.

It is a matter of the rules. Either they apply or they don't!!

There are many frustrations with the way different FSDO's apply the rules and even different inspectors and supervisors within those FISDO's. I have been under the ARB/CAA rules, giving my age away, and your rules are very cut and dried. Ours allow some discretion or latitude. All you have to do is find an inspector that will work with you. Much easier said than done. There are discretionary inspectors and those that walk on a razor blade and to them it is only Black and White similar to the UK.

The question then is which one is correct and that gives rise to the frustrations??

Regards.

Keef

12th Nov 2006, 00:18

I have rented in the USA many times over the past 20 years or so. Every FBO I used insisted on a checkout before letting me go off in their aircraft, and I don't blame them for that. I always asked them to make that checkout into a biennial if the time was getting close. It avoided any argument later.

When I converted more recently to a full (standalone) FAA PPL, I asked the examiner about this. He said that his reading of the FARs is that a "reciprocal" PPL DOES require a separate FAA BFR, although he had heard many visiting foreign pilots arguing about why it shouldn't. His "take" was that the more they argued, the more convinced he became that they "needed" a BFR.

Speedbird48

12th Nov 2006, 03:30

Hi Keef,

Well said, and as I said earlier"attitude is everything"!!

I would no more think of "expecting" to be allowed loose with someones machine in the UK, without some form of check, than fly to the moon. Nor, do I expect to take an airplane without a check-out here. Yet there are people that do???

I find that you can always learn something or even pass on some snippit of knowledge on these rides. I also get to fly some neat airplanes, 108 different types so far!!

I hope that the subject has been well aired this time and the UK pilot understands where we are coming from and why?? We are so fortunate, in spite of the ADIZ and TFR problems, to be able to have so much freedom to enjoy our hobby or means of transportation.

As I said I work for the "dark side" and the point I was trying to make was "these are the rules, quit arguing and accept it" as I don't want to see UK pilot, or anywhere else, in trouble !!

Regards, come an see us we need your money!!

421C

12th Nov 2006, 22:48

Not quite true..
There is a big difference between valid and current. You don't even need a certificate if you have no intention of being PIC - you may as just well go with an Instructor.

ca_flyer, in all good faith, which bit is "not quite true"? The diference between valid and current is exactly what I was posting?

The purpose of a Safety Pilot is to take control should it be necessary e.g. traffic avoidance. A Safety Pilot can be in the right seat whilst the pilot in the left seat is under the hood in simulated instrument conditions. That safety pilot has to have a current certificate applicable to the category and class and a valid medical. The safety pilot in this instance is considered a 'Required' Crew Member" and may log the time as second in command (FAR 61.51) Not having a current BFR means that that person cannot act as safety pilot as he cannot legally take control.

I am not sure of this. 91.109(b)(1) says No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless the other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

On the other hand, 61.55(a) says

(a) A person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command pilot flight crewmember only if that person holds:
(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating

It is not clear to me that a Safety Pilot in the simulated instrument sense has to qualify as a required SIC. Of course, he needs to be BFR current to log the time as SIC as you describe. It's just that 91.109 does not use the word "current". My understanding is that the Safety Pilot does not need to be current unless he wants to log the time.

Another example is that 91.109 only specifies category and class ratings, not endorsements. So a Safety Pilot may be qualified on ASEL but not have the required complex endorsement to act as PIC, or have a AMEL rating but not the High Altitude endorsement to act as PIC.

englishal

13th Nov 2006, 02:09

And this was because I fell into the same trap as other people i.e. not believing a BFR was required.

The DPE did find the instructor and have a chat with him. It was an oversight as the BFR had been carried out as part of a rental checkout.....as well as 50 odd hours of instrument training, but not logged "as a BFR", and hence I didn't meet the minimum requirements.

421C

13th Nov 2006, 02:58

If you do not carry the appropriate endorsements, then you are not qualified to be the required crew member that you would be if you are acting as safety pilot.

I understand this is a bit of a minefield but it is fact and you have to review the FAR's as a whole and not in isolation (unfortunately).

I agree you have to read 14CFR as a whole - good point. However, the interpretation hinges on whether the Safety pilot is a required crew member able to act as PIC. (clearly there are required crew members like S-I-C or FE who need not qualify as PIC).

§61.31(d)(1); § 61.51(e)(1)(iii), § 61.51(f)(2), § 61.3(c); § 61.56(c), § 61.57(c), & § 61.3(c)
and meet all the other pilot-in-command currency requirements §61.3.

None of these references are specific to the Safety Pilot role. I can not find a part of 61 or 91 that links the definition of Safery Pilot in 91.109 with the requirement to qualify as PIC. If this linkage exists then yout Part61 references are relevant, but if not, then I don't see that they apply. My understanding of both the spirit and letter of 91.109 is that the Safety Pilot is not required to fully qualify as PIC - he needs to have some basic qualification in order to spot traffic etc, may be even take the controls for a few seconds if traffic avoidance requires it, but not to take over as PIC. Another example is that, as I understand it, the SP need not have an Instrument Rating even if the flight is under an IFR flight plan - hence can't act as PIC on that flight.

Sorry, I hope I don't seem to be debating this for the sake of being argumentative! It's potentially an important point for someone needing a Safety Pilot where the SP candidate may be lapsed in BFR terms, or not have the exact endorsement (like Hi Alt) or, I guess, outside the US, who may have a non-US Private certificate with the right class rating.

Arrowflyer

13th Nov 2006, 10:42

Wow! All this has been really helpful, even if some contributors thought it was going over old ground. Forgive me for final clarification (I've been flying for 2 years now so just gone through my UK PPL Revalidation and thus the confusion). I fly an N-reg (but not outside the UK yet).

1. For an FAA license based on a foreign license to be VALID, the foreign license needs to be valid with a valid, current medical and all restrictions on the foreign license apply to the FAA one.

2. A valid license also has to be current to allow PIC (ICAO/FAA/CAA etc)

3. For the FAA license to be current for the type/class, all FAA currency rules apply so a BFR, 90 days passenger rules, and 12 hours in previous 12 months etc.

4. A pilot cannot fly PIC in the US on the FAA license unless it is current and valid so the foreign license needs to be valid, but only the FAA one needs to be current (go figure!). For renting in the USA therefore, a BFR is required as it's likely a checkride for insurance purposes also.

5. For a UK (say) pilot flying an N-reg in the UK, it can be flown on the UK license which must be valid & current for the type. However, the N-Reg cannot be flown outside the UK on a UK license and thus it must be flown on the FAA license at which point it needs to be current and a BFR etc is required.

6. The airwork (and groundschool?) for a BFR can be done by any ICAO instructor, but the logbook endorsements must be made by an FAA certified instructor. (So theoretically, doing a UK PPL re-val with an instructor counts for 1 hour of the FAA BFR, but to complete the BFR, 1 hour of groundschool on FAA FARS is required plus proper logbook endorsement)

Is that a fair understanding?:8

If so, opens a whole new debate for me on why have an N-reg without a full FAA license. Makes the FAA license issued based on a foreign license kind of pointless if you own an N-reg or rent in the US. (OK, I can hear all responses about 2 medicals now:hmm:)

421C

13th Nov 2006, 12:24

There are plenty of hits on Google re this.
Here is a cut and paste from such an article...
"... 14 CFR 91.109 says a safety pilot is required for simulated instrument
flight and that the safety pilot must have at least a private pilot
certificate, along with the type and category ratings appropriate to the
aircraft being used. Since a safety pilot is a required crew member, they must have a current medical certificate (14 CFR 61.51) and meet all the other pilot-in-command currency requirements..."

So not only must the safety pilot have a BFR he/she must also have the 90 day currency for carrying a passenger.

At this point it is probably best that you contact a FSDO and get it straight from the horses mouth..

I think we leave it at agreeing to disagree. Google hits are not the same as the FAR's. I have read the exact opposite in other googled articles! The quote above is logically flawed. A Flight Engineer or a Second-in-Command are required crewmembers and yet do not need to meet PIC requirements. Therefore I don't believe that Safety Pilot = Required Crewmember = must qualify as PIC.

Arrowflyer

6. The airwork (and groundschool?) for a BFR can be done by any ICAO instructor, but the logbook endorsements must be made by an FAA certified instructor. (So theoretically, doing a UK PPL re-val with an instructor counts for 1 hour of the FAA BFR, but to complete the BFR, 1 hour of groundschool on FAA FARS is required plus proper logbook endorsement)

In order to endorse you for the BFR, the FAA Instructor has to do the ground and flight school elements with you. So no, non-FAA ICAO instructors can not do any of the BFR. There are other ways of meeting the BFR requirement (eg. passing an FAA checkride, or recurrent and differences training with FAA instructors that may include a BFR sign-off)

My advice would be to get access to an FAA Instructor you trust and verify all the advice you get by personally reading the FAR/AIM books. You can see from the discussion ca_flyer and I have had that there is scope for disagreement between 2 reasonable guys who sound pretty knowledgeable (for instance, I'd swear I'm right on the Safety Pilot thing, but I may be wrong, and the rules do change both in print and how the FAA interprets them....wait till you ask about forecast icing and known icing!). You can not treat any given instructors advice as absolutely definitive on every regulatory subject, because there are always a few areas of difficult interpretation and different instructors will disagree. As ca_flyer says, the last resort is writing to a FSDO. In the case of UK N-reg operators, this is the New York International Field Office, although I think we have an obligation to do as much research and due diligence as possible before bothering them.

This is an excellent document on the BFR:
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/media/flight_review.pdf
The BFR isn't a 1hr ground plus 1hr air 'box ticking' excercise. The FAA view is that 1+1hrs might be appropriate for a Pilot in very current practice (eg. >300hrs/yr) but for a UK pilot exercising FAA privileges I'd expect the instructor to be extra diligent that they really new all the important rules both for operating in the US, and for operating on the N-reg in Europe.

Arrowflyer

13th Nov 2006, 16:00

Thanks 421c.
Further clarification helps:)
I have, today, written to the Airmen Branch to see if I can get a definitive statement. I have no problem with the BFR as such (although I think it will be harder than my UK revalidation). I am reasonably confident in my knowledge of FARS and I'm confident in my flying and piloting abilities. Actually for my UK reval, my instructor made me do some cross-country, so the only issue would be weather planning (or more precisely - planning sources).

I'm pretty cheesed off that I have to do a UK and an FAA revalidation, given the issuance of the license based on my UK one and that I have to pay twice for effectively doing the same thing. Now I need to go and get dispensation from the DoT to do the BFR in my N-reg.

However, this thread has shown that the FAA BFR IS required for licenses issued on the basis of a foreign license and that's the key learning.:{

421C

13th Nov 2006, 17:19

Arrowflyer - it's worth mentioning a couple of other requirements that are specific to using your N-reg license here in the UK. You must also have an FCC Restricted Radiotelephoone Operator Permit (easily done, go to the FCC website). Also, you must carry a Passport whenever using the privileges of the license on an N-reg airplane, even if the flight is within the UK. IIRC the Passport is the only qualifying photo ID, I don't think a UK photo driver's license will do.

rgds
421C

421C

13th Nov 2006, 18:04

I take back my earlier point. ca_flyer, thanks for your patience, at least I have learned something. More careful reading of 61.55 (especially subpart (d) which refers to Safety Pilots) makes it clear that the Safety Pilot is a required crewmember in the Second-In-Command sense, and that means he must be current etc, and meet other SIC requirements except those that 61.55f4 says are not needed.

Going back to a copy of the John Lynch 14 CFR FAQs (no longer current or available on the FAA website), it seems that there used to be an item in 61.55 which absolved a Safety Pilot from all of 61,55, but now it is only from the specific SIC training requirements.

However, I now have a stronger conviction that the Safety Pilot needs to qualify as SIC and not PIC, so am clinging to that as being partially right on something!

regards
421C

Arrowflyer

13th Nov 2006, 20:03

Arrowflyer

14th Nov 2006, 12:58

Thanks ca_flyer

I am aware of the Radio Station license and, as I thought, all the rules regarding US registered aircraft otuside the US, but the FCC one is new to me and has never been raised in discussions I've had with other N-reg owners. That's why I was a bit surprised. Got one ordered now though:ok:

BTW. I checked with the US AOPA and they say an FAA BFR is not required if using your foreign license but that the foreign license BFR, if one applies, keeps your FAA license current.......and round we go.:ugh:
I've written to the Airmen Branch for clarification. It's a bit pedantic, but I want to be 100% sure.

DaveW

14th Nov 2006, 18:20

If you fly PIC without that FAA BFR - then you would be doing so illegally - it's your call.

And hence you wouldn't be insured either, which is never a good idea but in the USA could be positively ruinous. :ooh:

ca_flyer's precis also makes logical sense, if you think about it, which is what I was trying to say with my blather several posts back about the non-US licence being a "foundation".

Belated thanks, 421C.

slim_slag

15th Nov 2006, 08:36

I take back my earlier point. ca_flyer, thanks for your patience, at least I have learned something. More careful reading of 61.55 (especially subpart (d) which refers to Safety Pilots) makes it clear that the Safety Pilot is a required crewmember in the Second-In-Command sense, and that means he must be current etc, and meet other SIC requirements except those that 61.55f4 says are not needed.Maybe I'm just being exceedingly thick this morning, but my reading of 61.55(d)(4) says that the SIC regulations don't apply to safety pilots as discussed in this thread.

So I reckon you were right the first time. There is no regulation that says a safety pilot as described in 91.109 has to be current unless he is acting as PIC. An argument has been put forward that he needs to be able to take over as PIC at any time, so must be qualified to be PIC. Well, that's stretching it. If you needed to be current as a part 91.109 safety pilot then why not say that in the regs? Does a 737 co-pilot in a part 121 operation need an ATP just in case the captain dies and the co-pilot SIC needs to take over? Nope, just a CPL, which doesn't allow you to be PIC in that sort of operation.

slim_slag

15th Nov 2006, 16:18

Well there you go, was definitely very thick this morning as I pulled up the wrong link in my browser and got a 2005 version of the FARS. The reg changed in 2005 to come into line with ICAO SIC rules.

Arrowflyer

17th Nov 2006, 20:13

Got this statement from the FAA Airmen Branch on FAR 61.75 and 61.56. These is a clear requirement for a BFR when using an FAA license issued on the basis of a foreign license. Copied here verbatim for an email I received.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In order to exercise the privileges of your FAA pilot certificate you are required to complete a biannual flight review in accordance with 14 CFR Part 61.56.

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.56(c) and § 61.75(b)(1); Yes, the flight review requirement even applies to foreign pilots when exercising their U.S. pilot certificate. It makes no difference whether it was a U.S. pilot certificate that was issued in accordance with § 61.75 or § 61.103. It is still a U.S. pilot certificate. And when a person is exercising that U.S. pilot certificate then as per § 61.56(c) it states, in pertinent part, ". . . no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has-

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor; and

(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review."

There is no difference. If a U.S. pilot is issued a foreign pilot license on the basis of holding a U.S. pilot certificate, that person is expected to comply with that foreign country's pilot certification rules when exercising that foreign pilot certificate. And so, there is no difference when the situation is reversed and a foreign pilot is exercising a U.S. pilot certificate.

As for your comments about § 61.75 (b)(1) which states, in pertinent part ". . . without any further showing of proficiency, provided the applicant:
(1) Meets the requirements of this section;"

What that rule [i.e., § 61.75(b)(1)] is addressing is one of the prerequisite eligibility requirements that govern the issuance of that U.S. private pilot certificate. Once the certificate is issued, there are currency and operational requirements that the pilot must meet and comply with, just like any other pilot certificate that is issued by the FAA.

And as I've said many times in the past, the FAA is a service organization, as well as a regulatory agency, and I agree and fully urge ASIs to take some time with a foreign pilot to explain our recency of experience, instrument currency, VFR rules, air traffic requirements, airspace requirements, etc. to foreign pilots when you all issue one of these § 61.75 private pilot certificates.

And this answer has been coordinated and approved by the FAA's Office of Chief Counsel, AGC 240.
{Q&A-326}

Best regards,
Airmen Certification Branch

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

StevenN

22nd Nov 2006, 08:34

Hi,

I would be grateful if someone could answer this question.

I have a restricted FAA PPL based on my JAA PPL.

I went to the States and done the following -

1) Multi Engine Rating, followed by : -
2) Instument Rating completed all in a multi engine aircraft.

The only ground exam I did was the FAA Instrument Rating Exam.

The FAA have advised me that that they will not issue my FAA Ratings because I did not sit the FAA PPL written exam.

It was my understanding that I would only need to do the FAA written exam if I wanted the restrictions on my license removed.

Can someone please adivse me if I need to do the FAA PPL written exam or if I dont want the restricitons removed the I do not have to sit this exam.

If someonce could also point me in the right direction where this is in the FAR AIM I would be most grateful.

Thanks

Steve

Arrowflyer

24th Nov 2006, 13:25

From my clarification with the FAA on the Restricted License:

1. You can add FAA ratings to your Restricted License, but your Foreign needs to be valid. Currency of licenses depends on which one you fly on.
If you fly on the FAA one, you need a valid foreign license (medical etc) to keep your FAA one valid, but you need to keep your FAA curernt (biennial, 90 pax rules etc)

2. If you add an FAA rating to your Restricted License, you MUST have a current FAA medical as well as your medical to keep your foreign license valid. This is because the FAA rating is issued on a stand alone basis, but tagged to a restricted license and such validiy of the rating is required as well as validity of the license.

So for a Restricted license with additional FAA ratings, you need 2 medical certificates and 2 valid licenses and whichever one you are flying on to be current in order to be legal.

Best bet is to go for the full FAA PPL and do the exams and skills test, then you can ignore your foreign license on the assumption of course, you have no need for it.

Arrowflyer

25th Nov 2006, 09:34

but this is not what StevenN quoted as being the FAA's reason.. hence why he needs to go back and ask for detailed clarification..

True, and I was trying to help clarify some things that may help with formatting the right question to the FAA. Perhaps, for example, StevenN does not have an FAA medical; perhaps he did not realise what a Restircted license really means (as I had not fully appreciated until the FAA clarification). I also suspect the FAA reasoning response StevenN posted was somewhat paraphrased.

By clarifying I was just trying to increase understanding.
You are absolutely correct in that it is only the FAA that can answer the question.

Whopity

26th Nov 2006, 21:58

If the FAA Licence is issued on the basis of a JAA licence which must be valid in order to exercise the privileges of the FAA licence, then to add an IR he must surely hold a JAA IR. Alternatively, he would need an Unrestricted FAA PPL.

OBA

27th Nov 2006, 21:45

The answer is simple.

In order to add an FAA IR to an FAA Private Pilot licence issued on the basis of foreign airmans certificate (IOB) (e.g. JAA PPL SEP) the training requirements and aeronautical experience required under FAA FAR Part 61/141must be met in relation to the FAA Private Pilot Requirements.

The FAA examiner executing the FAA IR practical test should have checked that the applicant had met the Part 61/141 requirements for the issue of an FAA Private Pilot licence prior executing the IR practical test.

Quite where the denial to issue the FAA IR on the basis of not having passed the FAA Private Pilot written exam comes from, I do not know, never heard of this one. FAA FAR's as follows (the section in bold is where most applicant's fail to meet FAA Private Pilot requirements and are therefore denied additional FAA rating issue):

Sec. 61.109

Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least--
(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;
(2) Except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes--
(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and
(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.
(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;(4) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a single-engine airplane, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the date of the test; and
(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least--
(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;
(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and
(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Trust above is helpful.

When an FAA IR is issued to an FAA PPL that is IOB then the licence reads the same as before i.e. Private Pilot Single Engine Land issued on the basis of etc. etc. and then:

Instrument Rating Single Engine US Test Passed

The IR is a "stand alone" rating.

I will however do a little "checking" myself and get answer for you.

Adrian Thompson
Head of Training
OBA FL USA

StevenN

28th Nov 2006, 10:31

Thank you for your replies.

Just before I go back to the FAA, can anyone tell me does the PPL written exam have to be done if I want the multi engine rating added to my restricted PPL.

Thanks

Speedbird48

28th Nov 2006, 22:30

In response to Stevens questions, for which I offer a rather late reply regarding adding an Instrument rating to the US validation of his UK licence. I will offer the following.

When you were given an unsatisfactory answer at the FSDO you should have followed it up with a request for the written rule. The Freedom of Information Act covers all of you!!

Volume 2, Chapter 29 of the FAA Inspectors Handbook, 8700.1 lays it out very clearly and if you ask the inspector to refer to page 29-3 you will see that in the Left hand column (c), the answer.

It states that in order for you to have a "Standard" Instrument Rating you must pass the appropriate Knowledge Test AND the Practical Test. (Flight Check) End of story. Once you have passed BOTH parts you have a Standard FAA Instrument Rating.

If you hold a UK instrument rating there is a "short" Instrument, Foreign Pilot, Knowledge Test" (50 questions) and then the FSDO will make an annotation to your validation and you can fly IFR in the system.

Should you at a later date pass the writtens and the practical test for a US Commercial you will then be able to transfer the "Standard" Instrument Rating without further testing but not the one obtained by doing the "short" written.

I hope that helps a little as there are some strange definitions being pushed out here.

Regards,

Speedbird48

28th Nov 2006, 22:36

To answeer your question regarding getting a Multi Engine Rating added to your UK Validation, you do not have to do any written.

You will be required to get the training and the sign-offs. Then with the Form 8710 in hand, take that and your log book plus certificate to the FSDO.

Don't forget the security issues/visa when you show up and ask to do any flying training. I know they are not uniformly applied but they should be.

Regards.

Speedbird48

28th Nov 2006, 22:40

To answer your question regarding getting a Multi Engine Rating added to your UK Validation, you do not have to do any written.

You will be required to get the training and the sign-offs. Then with the Form 8710 in hand, take that and your log book plus certificate to the FSDO.

Don't forget the security issues/visa when you show up and ask to do any flying training. I know they are not uniformly applied but they should be.

Regards.

IO540

29th Nov 2006, 04:17

Don't forget the security issues/visa when you show up and ask to do any flying training. I know they are not uniformly applied but they should be.

The above isn't actually correct. It's been done to death elsewhere here but TSA applies to a PPL or IR and does not apply to most/all of the other stuff e.g. CPL, CFI, CFII etc and the guidelines for that are very clear. Visa requirements are less clear but are also debatable. US law refers to a course of study of 18+hrs/week. This will catch a lot of training but far from all.

Speedbird48

29th Nov 2006, 08:34

SoCalApp,
You are correct. Steven does not have to do the Private Knowledge Test prior to adding the Instrument Rating.
What I gave is direct from the Inspectors Handbook, 8700.1, and there is no reference to having to pass the Private Knowledge Test before adding the Instrument. Just that he has to do the Instrument Written and the Practical, flight test in order to get a Standard Instrument rating.
That is why I stated "ask the inspector to show you in writing where he gets his information from"!!
IO-540, As someone from the UK you may indeed be correct. I would suggest you try your argument with the Homeland Security/Immigration guy as you arrive in the country!! Probably a good way to get a fast trip back to the UK. It is known as Win the War but lose the battle. Pick one that you are going to win.
Regards.

IO540

30th Nov 2006, 06:21

I would suggest that there is a big difference between

a) telling the average US Immigration Official that you are going to to flight training (in which case you may as well ask him to show you his .45), and

b) just going to the USA and doing some flying while remaining entirely within the published US law on the matter

are two different things.

The real problem is the school. If you go to a Part 141 school (which you have to, if you want to get a Visa, due to SEVIS / I-20) then will probably just say you have to get a visa. They are pig ignorant but that's the world we live in. OTOH if you go to a small Part 61 school, and explain the law to them, they are unlikely to be bothered.

Still, for the subject matter (an FAA private certificate) TSA is definitely needed, and a Visa will be needed if you will do more than 18hrs/week of ground+air work. And if you are getting TSA then you ought to get the Visa too because they have probably joined up their databases. They were not joined up when I did my stuff (in fact the TSA told me they know nothing and care absolutely nothing about visas) but I believe that may have changed.

IO540

30th Nov 2006, 18:02

OK, back to Square One: what is "appropriate visa for flight training"? Where is the reference for the primary legislation in the USA covering this?

If you cannot dig this out, I will be delighted to write to the TSA and ask them to clarify it ;)

Seagull61

1st Dec 2006, 15:40

gcolyer

1st Dec 2006, 15:58

I`ve booked some hour building and an aero`s course in the states next year, so as far as i`m aware I don`t need a visa - correct? As its not for a further rating?

Also to validate my JAA PPL to a FAA one I have to send the appropriate forms to the FAA and CAA (along with the cash) and wait for it through the post. Do I still need to visit a FSDO over in the states, or will they send all the paperwork through - i have 5 months before I go so plenty of time you would think!

Any advice as ever very much appreciated!

I am keeping out of the VISA mess!:ugh:

As for visiting an FSDO, I take it you mean for obtaining an FAA airmans certificate based on ou JAA license?

If so then yes you will need to go to the FSDO that you choose. you could always book the appointment at the FSDO to coincide with the date that you plan to arrive and fly in the U.S, although that leaves you no time to jump through hoops if you are asked to.

When I went for my appointment they insisted I had an FAA medical certificate as well as my CAA certificate. So I had to run around like a mad man to get the medical.

Seagull61

1st Dec 2006, 16:15

I have a FAA class 3 medical from when i was across in October doing my PPL.

So once the paperwork is done and dusted we head to the nearest FSDO and do we do a checkride there? Or is it just paper pushing.

I did read the first 2 pages of the thread but there was a lot of conflicting information.

Keef

14th Jan 2007, 16:45

There are "clear rules", there are "open questions", and there is "misinformation".

I think it's very clear that a "reciprocal FAA certificate" needs a valid BFR before the visiting pilot can fly in the US (or fly an N-reg aircraft outside the home country).

I've done RHS for folks practising under the hood, but I had a current BFR at the time. I'm not convinced that's a requirement, but it's a good idea.

My understanding is that you need a Visa and TSA clearance for "training for the grant of a certificate or rating". So for a BFR, nothing needed. For some bimbling with an instructor, nothing needed. For training to upgrade a PPL to a CPL, I think Visa and TSA are needed - but I'd be interested to hear what the pundits say. I think there's something on the US Embassy website about it.

As for the FAA refusing to issue a certificate "based on a UK licence", that didn't happen to me. I added an FAA IR to my "based on", and got the famous words "Instrument Airplane US Test Passed". Then I did an unrestricted FAA PPL to keep it simple.

I wonder - did StevenN try to get a multi-engine FAA PPL and IR on the back of a SEP UK licence and a multi-checkride? That would explain the glitch.

DaveW

14th Jan 2007, 16:54

Keef, this Oct 04 letter (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2004/041020tsa_notice.pdf) from the Transportation Security Agency to AOPA clarifies their requirements for notification, visas etc.

Keef

14th Jan 2007, 17:05

Thanks - yes, that matches my understanding of the situation.

StevenN

15th Jan 2007, 11:09

Hi All,

Thanks for all your responses.

Just to let you know the FAA made an error and there was nothing wrong with my application for the FAA Multi Engine Rating.

They issued me with my licenses be it 6 months after I took the test - and soon after they issued that license they issued me with my FAA Multi IR.

Thanks again

Steve

Just one thing to note for people who go out to the States to do the FAA IR and then convert to JAA IR in the UK. The CAA will not issue you with your JAA IR until the FAA issue you with the actual license. In my case this took 6 months, it is usually 3 months. In practical terms this means you can not apply for your JAA CPL/IR until you receive these licenses even though the UK flight tests have been passed.