Gloster Grebe J7530

[abeaumont]

Gentlemen,

Among my late fathers personal effects I found a lot of photographs from his RAF service days (1929 to 1946). I found three photographs of Gloster Grebes (at leats I think they are), two of them of the same aircraft, J-7530. The aircraft had crash landed very close to what I think is Eastchurch Primary School on the Isle of Sheppey.

I cannot now remember in any great detail what my father told me about this aircraft. I think the accident was in either 1929 or 1930, and so hopefully will not awaken any unhappy memories for anyone after the passing of so many years.

Can anyone advise me how I might find out more about this aicraft, its pilot, and what happened?

If it is still too soon to make such an enquiry, then please tell me and I'll search no further.

Kind regards

Adrian

[airborne_artist]

Try asking on the AH and N (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=86) forum. Even BEagle wasn't flying in the Vickers Funbus that long ago.

If you have time to scan them they would be of a lot of interest to many Ppruners. A fascinating period to have served (and survived) in the RAF.

[abeaumont]

I should have thought of that!
Many thanks, have done so.
Adrian

[GlosMikeP]

Have a look at these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Grebe

http://www.aircraft.airframe.org.uk/gloster/index.html

[Archimedes]

Crashed on 10 April 1930, while with 19 Squadron according to an Air Britain publication lurking in our library. Details sparse - simply says 'spun in' and written off charge. The book makes no reference to the fate of the pilot.

[Flap62]

How nice to read such a sensitively posted request as opposed to the usual semi-literate drivel we get.

[snapper41]

You could also try contacting the Air Historical Branch (at Bentley Priory). They hold the record cards for each individual aircraft that has ever served with the RAF; the card will tell you where it was built, to which sqn(s) it was issued and its fate, plus all dates; give them the type and/or serial number and they'll look it up for you The AHB chaps have been very helpful to me in the past when tracking down aircraft records - I was able to give my ex-air gunner neighbour a copy of the card relating to 'his' Lancaster.

As for the pilot, the AHB may well have a record of who was flying it when it crashed; if not, what about trying the local newspaper? It was probably a newsworthy story in its day, and most newspapers have archives that can be researched easily. If you can get a name, you could then write to RAF PMA at Innsworth to get his service record, but IIRC, you need to be a relative for the records to be released.

Hope this helps - let us know what you discover!

[abeaumont]

Gentlemen

Thank you all for the very helpful information and kind words.

Interesting that the aircraft was with 19 Squadron, as dad was serving with 29 Squadron at the time. I'll continue with the research and am relieved that I have not caused offence by making the request for information.

I have scanned the pictures, but do not know where I can post them for you all to examine, and advice would be welcomed. I also have many pictures that dad took when he was with 29 Squadron during their time at El Amriya in 1935/36. There are many of various types of aircraft, and one or two that had been bent to various degrees. One that suffers somewhat from camera shake has inscribed on the back "Flight Sgt gives a song during the beer shifting, Christmas Day 1935".

It would take time but I would be very happy to scan the lot if it would be of interest.

Kind regards

Adrian

[abeaumont]

I have created a Flickr account, and scans of the two pictures of J7350 can be viewed at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adrianbeaumont/

Kind regards

Adrian

[wg13_dummy]

Outstanding photos, Adrian!!

A real slice of history.

Keep em coming.

[abeaumont]

I have just added more with some captions. There's loads of them and it will take a long time, but I'm glad they are appreciated.

Adrian

[Archimedes]

Mmmmm. I began to ponder whether or not the Grebe was in front-line service as late as 1930 (one has to do something crawling behind a lorry at 20mph on the A420). And it wasn't. Neither 19 nor 29 were flying the Grebe in 1930, according to Jeff Jefford's RAF Squadrons - they'd moved on to Siskins by then. On top of that, the badge in the photo looks a little like 25 Squadron's. Very odd, until...

Digging out Thetford's Aircraft of the RAF Since 1918, it transpires that J7530 was a Grebe IIIDC, a two-seat dual control trainer. I quote:

"Six of these were flown by No 25 Squadron (J7520, J7530, J7532, J7534, J7536 and J7538) to assist the training of pilots in the skills of formation aerobatics"

So we know the type, but we're now left with the awkward fact that 25 Sqn was also Grebe-less by 1930. Either 25 kept the trainers on charge to continue formation aerobatic practice, or they moved to another unit. And in the photo, the aircraft is lacking 25 Sqn markings (the silver/black bars).

So, where next? Well, another book later, and it appears that the Coastal Defence Co-operation flight was at Eastchurch in 1930, as was the armament and gunnery school. The badge on the tail might be for one of those, perhaps.

It seems, therefore, that as long as the date of loss is correct, the aircraft almost certainly wasn't 19 Squadron's, was possibly with 25 and could well have been with a second-line unit at Eastchurch.

And the photos are splendid, Adrian. They're the sort of thing that get lost very easily over the years, (when they ought to be preserved for posterity), and no-one gets to view them - so please keep posting them!

[airborne_artist]

Some great research/investigation by Archimedes, and the photos are superb. There must be loads in attics all over the country, and loads more already junked, but the chance to see these is fantastic.

One of the better uses of the interweb, I'd say.

[abeaumont]

I'll try to get some more scanned this evening gentlemen.

Adrian

[lasernigel]

Nothing to do with the original thread,but was given a load of photos which I thought had been lost over the years last weekend.Were in my Auntie's loft for the past 24 years as she cleared out my Mum's house when she died.Dad was in Heliopolis and Kabrit with 78 sqn (1944-46).Have two of the AVM's Dakota interior shots.The officers in those days certainly knew how to travel in style,somehow don't think it would be allowed nowadays.
Various shots of Wellingtons,Blenheims and Liberators.
Will post if there is interest.:ok:

[Archimedes]

Yes, Please!

[abeaumont]

Gentlemen,

The next batch of photos has just been uploaded to Flickr and can be viewed at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adrianbeaumont/

See a Fleet Air Arm aircraft after a bad landing and also a Handley Page HP42.....

More to come later. Many thanks to Arechimedes for his research.

Adrian

[Archimedes]

Adrian,

Thanks for the PM. Did a spot more research today - in the form of going to look again at the book, since these Air Britain works are right much more often than they're wrong, and I had to be certain that I'd read it correctly.

Discovered that if one opened the book a little wider to overcome the slightly over-tight binding, the magic letters 'A&GS' appeared at the edge of the page...

So the Grebe was with the Armament & Gunnery School at Eastchurch when it crashed.

[abeaumont]

Amazing. My thanks to you Archimedes! It is at least thirty years since my father spoke to me about that aircraft, and he didn't say much at the time. He did say that it had only just missed Eastchurch Primary School, which I must presume is the building in one of the pictures. Dad had done his initial training at RAF Uxbridge (not long after Aircraftman Shaw was there) and thence to RAF Manston for technical training where he cam top out of 200 airmen. From there he went to Eastchurch early in 1930, I suspect not long before the crash of J7530.

I added more pictures yesterday evening, and there are more to come, of 29 Squadron at El Amyra - hope you like them.

Kind regards

Adrian

[abeaumont]

I've just checked and found that the accident date for J7530 on 10 April 1930 was a Thursday. Quite a chance therefore that the school was occupied at the time.

[Green Flash]

Whilst it is always good to see pictures of the classic machines of old I find it equally fascinating to see the non-aviation photos too; the tents, buildings, infrastructure, mess, tents!, the footy match but most of all the people. Gives a real flavour to the whole thing. Utterly fascinating. Very good scans too (I love the leave pass). Has Pprune found it's mil photo archivist?:ok:

[airborne_artist]

Have a look at all the old 60s motors on this Pprune thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=250846).

[abeaumont]

I've also got pictures of the area around the station, and places/people he saw while off camp. I'll add them asap. I also have a lot of other RAF paperwork, incuding dads Record of Service Book. That is already scanned and I'll add it tonight if I get a chance. Somewhere at home I have a 29 Squadron diary that he bought, which covers his time in Egypt - I'll find it and scan all the pages as well. Makes interesting reading.

Adrian

[Kitbag]

The unidentified biplane on your picture site is almost certainly Avro Tutor K3365. One of 153 built against contract 195190/32. It was initially issued to CFS @ Upavon (details thanks to Jackson, A. J. Avro Aircraft since 1908, Putnam, London, 1965). Interestingly there was at least one RAF Tutor in the region being used to tow civilian sports gliders for use by service pilots when off duty, but depending on when the photo was taken I don't think it was this one as I cant see the light bomb release shackle that was jury rigged to release the glider, according to one pilot it was directly behind the tailwheel.

[abeaumont]

The unidentified biplane on your picture site is almost certainly Avro Tutor K3365.

I'm astounded! How on earth did you manage to find that out?

Kind regards

Adrian

[abeaumont]

Whilst it is always good to see pictures of the classic machines of old I find it equally fascinating to see the non-aviation photos too; the tents, buildings, infrastructure, mess, tents!, the footy match but most of all the people. Gives a real flavour to the whole thing. Utterly fascinating. Very good scans too (I love the leave pass). Has Pprune found it's mil photo archivist?:ok:

I have just added a lot of scans of documents. More later.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adrianbeaumont/

Adrian

[lasernigel]

As promised the first of quite a few photos.Pretty busy at the moment but will do them as time permits.Plenty of VE day celebrations in Egypt and footie matches.

Bad rainstorm had a lot of aircraft upto their wings in sand.This one not too bad.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/lasernigel/Blenheima.jpg

Damage to a Wellington that did sink upto it's wing roots

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/lasernigel/Wellingtona.jpg

Views looking forward and aft of the AVM's Dakota transport

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/lasernigel/Avmdakfwd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/lasernigel/Avmdakrear.jpg

Taken at RAF Heliopolis about 1945/6

[abeaumont]

I've just added more images to the Flickr site and would welcome comments and information.

With best wishes

Adrian

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adrianbeaumont/

[abeaumont]

I've added a scan of an admission ticket to the Hendon Display of 1937. Two shillings and six pence - a lot of money in those days.

One year 29 Squadron took part and in rehearsals of formation aerobatics two aircraft collided and one fell to earth on the airfield. Dad was first on the scene and the pilot was his flight commander. Dad said that he looked at dad, smiled in recognition and died. Does anyone know anything about this? I think it happened at RAF North Weald.

Kind regards

Adrian

[abeaumont]

I have just added another ten photographs of aircraft from my fathers collection. Some are labelled with the inscriptions he made on the backs of the photos, others are blank.

Some I do not recognise, and sadly there is one of another crash site. Does anyone recognise any of these aircraft? One or two might be quite a challenge!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adrianbeaumont/

Kind regards

Adrian

[Kitbag]

The large twin engine biplane is almost certainly J6856 the Vickers Virginia Mk I prototype possibly serving with 9 Sqn (I have a very similar photo in another Putnam book), but I doubt it went into service with the 'fighting tops'. The rather soggy transport type looks like a Vickers Victoria, the single engine biplane is a DH9a, which came in more varients than a well known brand of beans. As for the crashed aircraft I went round in circles until I realised it was a rear 3/4 view of another Vickers Virginia, this time a Mk IX or X, (probably the latter as the structure appears to be metal and to have survived a fire) which had a prominent tail gunners position instead of the 'fighting tops' of the prototype. :ok:


BTW, for those who haven't looked at the link I really think you should, and who doesn't think those seaplanes look the biz?

[abeaumont]

Gentlemen

As promised, I have dug out from the depth of a storage box, my father's diary from 1936. It records the activities, on a day to day basis, of 29 Squadron during their operational tour at RAF El Amriya. A sort of snapshot of RAF service life in those days.

So far I have scanned the entries for January 1936 and posted them on my Flickr site

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adrianbeaumont/

I hope this is of interest. Comments welcomed!

Kind regards to all

Adrian

[abeaumont]

My thanks to Alex who found a newspaper report of the accident to the Gloster Grebe in the Times Archive.

Witnesses said that the plane was flying "fairly high" but got into a spin. It happened just before midday while the children were in their classrooms, and missed the school by "50 yards". The aircraft had already flown for about two hours that day, and was 10 minutes into its flight.

There were two men on board and both were removed unconscious from the wreckage. The pilot, Flying Officer Ernest Leonard Wilson RAF was the pilot was taken to the Royal Naval Hospital in Chatham, where he later died, and PJ111484 Telegraphist James Ronald Armison, Royal Navy, who died in Eashchurch Hospital.

I presume that the Telegraphist was in the more damaged front seat. The pilot was taken to Chatham which would have taken quite a time, perhaps an hour, so perhaps he was seen as having a better chance of surviving? Eastchurch Hospital was more of a cottage hospital for those that remember such things, and would have had only rudimentary A&E facilities.

The report also confirms Archimedes discovery that the aircraft was used by the Armaments and Gunnery School at RAF Eastchurch.

Many thanks to both Alex and Archimedes!

Kind regards to all

Adrian

[abeaumont]

It has taken over four years, but I now know rather more about this tragic accident.

From enquiries on a Kent local history forum, one poster who is deeply into the aviation history of the Isle of Sheppey provided this insight:-

"Around noon on the 10th April 1930 one particular aircraft above the village was beginning to attract attention. One young lad in his garden looked up because the aircraft's engine seemed to be playing up - cutting out and then re-starting, in bursts. As he looked up he was just in time to see the aircraft drop low across the village, narrowly missing the houses in the High Street, just clear the school roof and disappear behind the school with a bang into Shurland Meadow.
The Gloster Grebe dual-seat trainer, was piloted by Flying Officer F.L. Wilson, 26 and he was accompanied by Telegraphist J.R. Armison R.N. 21.

At the Inquest the next day, held in the Eastchurch airfield's Sick Bay, a succession of witnesses and RAF personnel gave their accounts of what had happened. A fellow pilot from the airfield, who had continued to watch the aircraft after its take off, stated that it was Wilson's third flight, with a different passenger, that morning. Apparently he was taking up Naval Telegraphists whe were coming to the end of five weeks flying training in aerial gunnery.
It transpired that Wilson had taken off at 11.45 and after climbing to 2,000 feet the aircraft was seen to roll onto it's back, right itself and then further climb to around 2,500 feet. From there the aircraft then went into five spins, which were part of the passenger's traning, but on diving out of the last one, the engine was heard to cough on and off a few times. It was then that the aircraft was seen to first flatten out and then steeply dive and disappear behing the village.

Alf Coultrip was in Shurland Farm gardens when he too became aware of the aircraft, reporting that as it completed a spin it levelled off, did a couple of half turns and then went into a steep dive into Shurland Meadow, behind the school.

Mr. G. Codden, son of the lanlord of the Crooked Billet public house, heard the aircraft go over and crash and ran to Ham's the butchers to telephone the airfield. He then ran to Shurland Meadow and joined Mr. Dowsett, Mr. Beard and Dr. Shepard, in trying to free the airmen from the wreckage, watched all the time by an ever growing crowd of schoolchildren and villagers.
Mr. Dowsett, of the High Street, said that he helped to cut the straps that held the airmen into the aircraft and also helped remove their parachutes from their backs. Both men were bleeding profusely and it was assumed that they were dead, or dying.

By this time Flt. Lt. F.J.Haythornwaite, the airfield's Medical Officer, had arrived on the scene to find both the airmen being laid out on the grass. Both were found to be still breathing but unconscious and admist their numerous injuries the MO suspected skull fractures, which was later borne out. He immediately had them removed to the airfield's Sick Bay, where Armiston shortly died and because of this, it was decided to move Wilson to the much better facilities at the RN Hospital, Chatham, but he too died, soon after admission there.

After the hearing had heard how Wilson had 861 hours flying experience to his credit and that the aircraft had been checked over fully the day prior to the accident,the Foreman of the Jurors, Mr. Triplow, gave their verdict as one of "Accidental Death"."

I also now know that the pilot, Flying Officer Ernest Leonard Wilson, is buried in the churchyard of St Peters Church in Broadstairs, Kent. I know this because I received an e-mail two days ago - from the granddaughter of FO Wilson. He lives in New Zealand and had been researching his grandfather and found my photographs on the internet. The granddaughter is in the UK now, and I am meeting her in Canterbury Cathedral next Tuesday morning. She will be going to St Peters to pay her respects to her grandfather.

[abeaumont]

This is the grave of Flying Officer Ernest Wilson RAF, at St Peter's Church, Broadstairs, Kent, with his granddaughter Sarah.

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz115/Ex-Chalky/IMG_1092.jpg

Rather overgrown, and the cross has fallen over. Does anyone have any contacts with the Air Cadets in East Kent? Might be nice if they could "adopt" the grave and keep it tidy - the family can hardly do that as they live in New Zealand...

And this is Flying Officer Wilson:

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz115/Ex-Chalky/Image2.jpg

[Sue Bourgois]

Gentlemen,

Among my late fathers personal effects I found a lot of photographs from his RAF service days (1929 to 1946). I found three photographs of Gloster Grebes (at least I think they are), two of them of the same aircraft, J-7530. The aircraft had crash landed very close to what I think is Eastchurch Primary School on the Isle of Sheppey.

I cannot now remember in any great detail what my father told me about this aircraft. I think the accident was in either 1929 or 1930, and so hopefully will not awaken any unhappy memories for anyone after the passing of so many years.

Can anyone advise me how I might find out more about this aircraft, its pilot, and what happened?

If it is still too soon to make such an enquiry, then please tell me and I'll search no further.

Kind regards

Adrian
My Grandfather W