SAR question...

[WSPS]

Hi chaps,

just a short SAR question:

a mate of mine has been flying SAR in the Navy and told me that they used to fly 'bout four hours each day. Mission or no mission. So it was those four hours regardless

Now what happens to commercial SAR crews these days? Is the same principle applied here, too?

Thanks for all info

Keep the rotor(s) in the green :ok:

WSPS

[cyclic gal]

SAR crews will normally carry out a training sortie twice per shift (SAR Missions notwithstanding). The shift will generally start around mid-day with an afternoon training sortie, stand-by overnight and a second training sortie before midday the following day, though it varies slightly from company to company. This is pretty much a rule of thumb and is dependant on many other variables. Weather, crew and/or aircraft hours (or lack of), techinical considerations etc. though crews are required to carry out a minimum number of hours in each discipline each year. Normal training sorties would generally be anything between 1 and 2 hours.

[Geoffersincornwall]

In Shannon we used to do one hour a day unless we had been out on a shout. If the Navy guys are doing 4 hours a day then they must have money to burn. In my day an hour a day was about average - but I suppose that was a long time ago!:hmm:

G

:ok:

[Night Watchman]

If you want the maths then each member of a UK CG SAR unit does roughly 200-250 flying hours a year (taskings and training). Because of the working time directive they can only work an average of 8 shifts per month (max duty hours 2000).

So on average a UK CG SAR pilot will achieve 2.1 to 2.6 flying hours per shift.

The number of training hours available hasn't changed with the new contracts (which were effectively decided by the military) so I assume the CG and the MOD are happy with maintaining that level of currency. Of course with harmonization the big question is will the number of training hours available be the same across the board for both civil and military pilots.

NW

[[email protected]]

Cyclic Gal - are you saying that you don't do training at night?

RAF crews have a 4 hour per day allocation which is usually 2 hrs day/ 2 hrs night.

[Night Watchman]

Cyclic Gal - are you saying that you don't do training at night?


Crab -stop stirring. Even you with your ' I hate civvy SAR attitude' must know that both civil SAR operations in the UK and Ireland all carry out night training to meet the requirements laid down in the contracts.

[The Ferret]

I recently spent a few years as an aircraft commander on an RN SAR Roster and we would come on watch at 0800 and fly one day SAR Training Flight in a 24 hours shift and if anybody in the crew was not night current (2 hours that month) we would also fly a night training sortie (night cliff winching/night boats transfers etc). So on a normal 24 hr duty we would normally only fly one sortie of about 1.30 - not 4 hrs! If we flew at night we may fly 3hrs max plus any hours we flew on Shouts!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[[email protected]]

Night Watchman - so exactly how much training is mandated at night then?

[Night Watchman]

Night Watchman - so exactly how much training is mandated at night then?

You see, you are stirring. Have a look at CG3 the night flying and night deck requirements are all listed there. :)

[cyclic gal]

[quote=cyclic gal;2950594]though crews are required to carry out a minimum number of hours in each discipline each year.quote]

I'm sure you'll be aware that one of these disciplines is night flying of course.

[3D CAM]

Crab,
Good to se that your attitude is still the same! We will have fun with you come harmonisation?? If you can hack working with us lesser mortals that is!!!
Night watchman..well said in both your posts!

[cyclic]

Crab, you just can't help yourself can you. Our night flying requirements are the same as day - equal hours. Out of the military's 4 hours available how much of it used when most of the time the cabs are u/s?

In our operation we fly as much as we can at night within the constraints imposed, quite sensibly, by the CAA, company etc. No one in their right mind likes night flying and it is often the least practised discipline within the military and civil sectors. Proficiency at night is quite important when most of the shift is spent in the dark!

[detgnome]

cyclic - what figures do you have to factually back up your statement that the mil cabs are u/s most of the time - by which I take it you mean over 50%. Last time I looked we were well in excess of 98% availability. Additionally, by my reckoning the RAF cabs fly on average (a very rough average) 3.5 hours a day.

[cyclic]

DG

None whatsoever, just personal experience of 18 years flying for HM, most of it SAR. I have no authorative documents or statistics and I am not entering a bun fight as I really don't care whether you fly 3.5hrs or 4.0hrs. The point I was making was in response to Crab who immediately jumps in on anything to do with SAR and turns it into a p*ssing contest. I have flown SAR in both the military and civil sector and I can honestly say that the serviceability factor of the civil sector far outweighs the availability of HM's available hours for training. Unless the SK fleet has had a remarkable upturn in serviceability, I doubt much has changed.

I have never said that one side is better at the job than the other - I'll leave that to Crab as he has a monopoly on ill-informed bias.

[detgnome]

Cyclic - I find it slightly ironic that you say you do not want to get into bun fight when you are as guilty of mud slinging by making up some wildly unsubstantiated claims. Furthermore, you seem to be contradicting yourself when in one post you ask the question how much out of the 4 hrs is flown and then in your next post you say you don't really care!!!

Can you really say that in 18 years of mil aviation that the cabs were u/s most of the time i.e. more than 50%?

[[email protected]]

Dear oh dear, what a bunch of sensitive souls......I only asked a question.

But to quote Donald Duck Dunn from the Blues Brothers 'If the sh*t fits, wear it'

[ropedope]

quote "'If the sh*t fits, wear it'"...........whit i winker.
must get thas keyboird faxed.:yuk:

[[email protected]]

And some fell on stony ground.......

[Night Watchman]

And some fell on stony ground.......

Crab,

Are you still talking about wearing sh*t or have you moved on to another one of your profound and philosophical arguments?

NW

[Sven Sixtoo]

Hi all (and Crab)

RAF SAR, as I understand it (and it's where I fly but not where I belong (which should make my ID obvious to all in the business), allows its crews to train for up to 4 hrs per day, with an allowance to 4:30 for Leconfield and Boulmer when they go mountain training to avoid the transit time limiting useful work.

It is permitted, but not required or enforced, to complete 4 hrs trg in a shift. I tend to do so, because I only get 2 capt shifts each month in which to meet the mandatory trg requirements. In my experience, most crews do about 3.5 hrs trg in a shift if they are not interrupted by operations (or, as has been mentioned, the generic unserviceability of the RAF SAR Force).

We are rule bound as regards training to be achieved. A very serious question for the analysts preparing the future SAR contracts is how much trg is needed. The current RAF standard is undoubtedly required for the low-hours first tourist pilots that form much of the RAF element of UK SAR (else how are they to progress to Op Capt in a reasonable time). It is also required for people like me (actually I think I'm unique) who do the job only occasionally to make sure we are up to scratch. Whether it is required for the majority of the RAF SARF, who have been in the business in their current appointment for 1000 hrs+, or for the RN crews who mostly have been somewhere and done that around the world, or for the civvie SAR crews who are mostly suberbly experienced before they ever came to civ SAR and have been there and done that, is debatable.

All this trg costs money. It improves our SAR capability. The question is what the tradeoff is between better kit and more trg to do the job better.

The future SAR contractor's bid will be the accepted answer to that. The question that the future SAR contractor has to answer has yet to be defined.

Sven

[IrishSarBoy]

Ah leave Crab alone. It's always good to have a different point of view when raising issues such as night flying currency, lack of servicable cabs etc. As for the original question, we can fly upto four hours a shift, in fact I feel a few decks and maybe wets coming on this morning followed by a wee bit of IF to polish off the shift. In my experience of mil SAR I spent many more days looking out of the window not flying cos of 'eng' days, u/s cabs and flying too many hours of the aircraft due to jobs etc than I ever have in civi street. I can confidently say that I personally went from a 'don't fly if you don't have to' regime to one of 'fly as much as you can'. Still it's been three years now since I left the mob so things may have changed, then again!:ugh:

[[email protected]]

So as a check of understanding for me............I question a statement in a post, I am immediately subjected to insults, others make wild claims like

'No one in their right mind likes night flying and it is often the least practised discipline within the military and civil sectors'.......

which is certainly not true in the military,

and I am the one accused of mud-slinging and creating p*ssing contests!

Several military posters have stated quite clearly how much night flying we do (a lot) but the actual amount of night flying training per shift in other outfits is still hidden behind 'look in CG3' (which guess what, I don't have).

Sven Sixtoo has articulated the reasons behind our high levels of training, we are not (at the moment) cost limited, but capability driven (for those that like management speak). Without rekindling previous vitriolic threads on this topic - if one crew flies one hour training a month at night and another crew flies 10 hours a month, who is likely to have the better night capability?

[Justintime80]

Crab Crab Crab

Boy oh Boy do you know how to wind people up

Can I ask you is it not Quality of night training carried out by each crew rather than Quantity of hours flown?

[[email protected]]

Justintime - yes it's just a natural talent I guess:) But you are right, quality is vital.

Irishsarboy - you didn't do a tour at Leconfield did you?

[scottishbeefer]

Been away from PP for a while - good to see the mil/civ debate still simmering away!

Surely the civvy lack of banter capability is a significant decision driver for the SAR(H) planners?! Given that most civ crews are ex-mil I can only presume that:

1 - They're ex RN and had their humour surgically removed when they left.

2 - They're ex RAF and so never had a sense of humour.

3 - They're pedigree civs and so just don't understand humour at all - but I understand the pressure you must be under knowing that if you break the chopper you'll get in a lot of trouble with accounts!

Yours militarily dragging the debate to infant level,

SB