ATPL(H) Theory obtained through CPL(H) & IR

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

I received a letter from the CAA about a year ago confirming if I added an IR to my CPL(H) then I would receive an ATPL(H) theory credit but they also said this could change in the future.

I know in JAR FCL 2 it still states that if you have a CPL(H) with IR then you meet the ATPL(H) theory credits but I’ve been told that this could change soon.

Has anyone heard anything about this?

Thanks guys TTTE.

[paco]

Yes, it is changing, but don't hold your breath. The current CPL(H) with only minor changes to the syllabus is soon to become the ATPL(VFR), and a new CPL(H) will be brought in at the same academic level as the CPL(A) (i.e. very low).

NPA 25 has been sort of agreed but still has to go through the British legal process, which will take a few months yet.

You won't lose out on your studies.

Phil

[SmokinHole]

Does that mean that students who have completed the current ATPL(H) theory and have a CPL(H) under the current system can 'convert' it (or preferably just 'get') the new ATPL(VFR)??!

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Phill

I’ve just read it in JAR FCL 2.285(a) so it has changed.

What I really want to do is get my IR and get an ATPL(H) theory credit so I have the option to fly off shore, I see with the changes in the JAR system that I need to sit the all the ATPL(H) theory to do this.

Thank TTTE.

[Whirlygig]

:eek: Eek :eek:

I'm in the middle of CPL(H) ground school with a view to an IR maybe later but on the understanding that the CPL(H)/IR could be "converted" to an ATPL(H) as and when the hours experience were fulfilled.

Should I change horses or stick with CPL(H) exams?

Cheers

Whirls

[kissmysquirrel]

Whirls,
I'd just give up now and spend the money on a great holiday/cruise/car/kitchen (delete as appropriate)

The reality is that there are hardly any jobs for low time pilots in the UK, even with an IR. This talk of a boom time if you have 1000hrs+ and the IR is not as true as one may think. The next hurdle is experience with IR. Hours on particular types. etc etc.

Unless an offshore operator offers to pay for the IR, I bet it's going to be a bit of a personal waste of cash right now. I know of a number of guys, recently hired by one of the big 3, sitting waiting for training to commence due to lack of a/c, lack of instructors. And these guys are on pay!

PS, if anyone has some part time work for me?????:E :ok:

[Whirlygig]

Kissmy!! Wh'appen? :eek:

I know all about the doom and gloom but I would feel a right chump IF there was an opening a few years down the line and I'd got the wrong exams and had to sit more exams!

In reality I expect to go the instructor route but I don't want to close any doors needlessly at this stage in my training.

Cheers

Whirls

[kissmysquirrel]

Do the exams by all means. IR theory is easy enough anyway as an add on but if you do the atpl's now, i'm sure they'll retain their validity. If you dont want to do an ir in future, then just do the cpls. Why do more than u need?

Whichever way it goes, there has to be a bridging system for people with the cpl course to go IR route and atpl.

:ugh:

[Whirlygig]

The problem is, I haven't actually sat any exams (am about to shortly) so if I swap, then now is the time to do it. My concern is that these new rules mean that a CPL(H)/IR cannot be converted to an ATPL(H) without having a full set of ATPL(H) theory exams.

Cheers

Whirls

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Whirls

Untill August you could have held a CPL(H) with IR and you had the ATPL(H) theory credit but JAR FCL 2 was ammended so now you have to do the ATPL theory which lasts 36 months.

You can down load a copy of JAR FCL 2 from www.jaa.nl see section FCL 2.285

[FredFri]

the ATPL theory which lasts 36 months.


Not exactly, the credit lasts 36 months towards the grant of a CPL(H).
Once you hold a CPL, a pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical
knowledge examinations will remain valid indefinitely.
See FCL 2.495(b).

;)

[thecontroller]

err, are you sure about that?

i thought the ATPL(H) theory credit were only valid for 3 years. if you dont get your IR within that, you have to resit the 7 IR exams again. i know people in that situation and that is what the CAA has told them.

from LASORS:

J1.6 JAR-FCL THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE
EXAMINATION CREDITS
Details of JAR-FCL Theoretical Examination Credits
can be found within the appropriate section for the
licence being sought.

J1.7 JAR-FCL THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE
EXAMINATION ACCEPTANCE PERIOD
Potential candidates for the JAR-FCL ATPL theoretical
knowledge examinations should first consider the
implications of JAR-FCL 1.495 or 2.495 that relates to
the Acceptance Period.

A pass in the ATPL theory examinations will be
accepted for the issue of a CPL or IR during the 36
months from the end of the month of the date of the final
pass in the examinations. Provided that an IR is
obtained during this period, a pass in the ATPL
theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid
(for the purpose of ATPL issue) for a period of 7 years
from the validity date of the most recent renewal IR
entered in the CPL.
Failure to comply with Acceptance Period
If a CPL and IR are not granted within the 36 month
acceptance period then the ATPL theory credit will
lapse. Candidates will be required to re-pass all ATPL
theoretical knowledge examinations to regain ATPL
theory credit. However, it has been agreed that where
a candidate has previously passed all ATPL theoretical
knowledge examinations but were not granted a CPL/
IR within the 36 month acceptance period, the amount
of ATPL theoretical knowledge instruction will be at the
discretion of the Head of Training of the Approved FTO.

[FredFri]

A pass in the ATPL theory examinations will be
accepted for the issue of a CPL or IR during the 36
months from the end of the month of the date of the final
pass in the examinations. Provided that an IR is
obtained during this period, a pass in the ATPL
theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid
(for the purpose of ATPL issue) for a period of 7 years
from the validity date of the most recent renewal IR
entered in the CPL.
Failure to comply with Acceptance Period
If a CPL and IR are not granted within the 36 month
acceptance period then the ATPL theory credit will
lapse. Candidates will be required to re-pass all ATPL
theoretical knowledge examinations to regain ATPL
theory credit. However, it has been agreed that where
a candidate has previously passed all ATPL theoretical
knowledge examinations but were not granted a CPL/
IR within the 36 month acceptance period, the amount
of ATPL theoretical knowledge instruction will be at the
discretion of the Head of Training of the Approved FTO.

All that is correct but (in part) related to the passing of an ATPL(H)/IR.

Difference must be made for an ATPL(H) (without any mention added, ie VFR).

From FCL 2.495 :

(b) A pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(H) during 36 months and will remain valid indefinitely towards the grant of the ATPL(H) provided that the applicant has a valid type rating entered in the CPL(H).

(c) Provided that an IR(H) is obtained, a pass in the ATPL(H)/IR theoretical knowledge examination will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR(H) entered in the CPL(H) for the issuance of an ATPL(H)/IR.


ATPL(H) theory is valid for 36 months to gain a CPL(H) or IR(H).

If you hold a CPL(H), it is valid indefinitely for the grant of an ATPL(H)/VFR.
If you hold a CPL(H)/IR, it is valid 7 years for an ATPL(H)/IR.


Aniway, we're not answering the initial topic (just giving Whirlygig some food for thought !) :
"ATPL theory gained through CPL & IR ?" - and I must say that I find no clue in the FCL2 to any positive answer.
Also I don't get the relation between FCL 2.285(a) (mentioned before) and the initial question...?

[FredFri]

My concern is that these new rules mean that a CPL(H)/IR cannot be converted to an ATPL(H) without having a full set of ATPL(H) theory exams.



That's the way I understand it (note I didn't say "that's the way it is" :=)

As I see it, you have 14 exams in an ATPL(H)/IR theory. That's the 13 of an ATPL(H)/VFR + subject 092 (IFR communications).
(see FCL 2.470 (a) for Vfr and (d) for Ifr)

If you pass those 14, you have 3 years to get a CPL and an IR.

If you get only the CPL, they are still valid (no limit) for the issuance of an ATPL(H)/VFR.
If you get CPL&IR, then you have 7 years to take the ATPL(H)/IR practical test.

Question is if you get a CPL only and want to go for IR 4 years later?
Do you resit the 7 IR exams? or 092 only? :bored:

:ugh:

[thecontroller]

ATPL(H) VFR? whats the point of that?!

[FredFri]

ATPL(H) VFR? whats the point of that?!

Meant to allow "commercial air transport in multi-pilot
helicopters as PIC in VFR operations".

The difference between ATPL(H) and ATPL(H)/IR has appeared in amendment 4 of the JAR-FCL2.

[thecontroller]

multipilot VFR ops?

i can't imagine there's much of that going on, is there?

[FredFri]

I've just found the reference to the initial question of this thread!

It's new in amendment 4 :

FCL 2.050 (b) (9) through (11) :

(9) An applicant having passed the theoretical knowledge examination for a CPL(H) under previous amendments of JARFCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge requirements for ATPL(H).
(10) The holder of a CPL(H) gained under previous amendments of JAR-FCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge requirements for ATPL(H).
(11) The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) gained under previous amendments of JARFCL 2 up to and including Amendment 3 is credited with the theoretical knowledge requirements for ATPL(H) and IR(H).

.

[paco]

thecontroller

The ATPLVFR is to cover guys flying big machines in mountains where they can't fly IFR anyway.

phil

[Whirlygig]

I thought Air Ambulances have to be VFR ops?

Cheers

Whirls

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

From FCL 2.495 :

(b) A pass in the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations will be accepted for the grant of the CPL(H) during 36 months and will remain valid indefinitely towards the grant of the ATPL(H) provided that the applicant has a valid type rating entered in the CPL(H).

(c) Provided that an IR(H) is obtained, a pass in the ATPL(H)/IR theoretical knowledge examination will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR(H) entered in the CPL(H) for the issuance of an ATPL(H)/IR.


ATPL(H) theory is valid for 36 months to gain a CPL(H) or IR(H).

If you hold a CPL(H), it is valid indefinitely for the grant of an ATPL(H)/VFR.
If you hold a CPL(H)/IR, it is valid 7 years for an ATPL(H)/IR.


I had saw in lasors J1.7 that you had to re-sit the ATPL theory if you did not obtain a CPL(H) & IR(H) within 36 months after passing the original ATPL theory, If you want an ATPL(H) (IR) issued, however it does not state in JAR FCL 2.295 that you have to re-sit all the ATPL theory exams (See Fredfri quote above)

So I don’t see why I can't just do my IR theory and gain an IR(H) then at a latter date if I find my self flying offshore with a CPL(H) & (IR) gaining MP experience and the get my ATPL(H) (IR) that way. I’ve emailed the CAA to ask this.

Fredfri JAR FCL 2.85(a) used to refer to the holder of a CPL(H) & IR(H) = ATPL(H) theory credit.

Fredfri I just saw your post on FCL 2.050, appendix 4 of FCL 2.050 does give credits for some theory exams.

I will send an email to the CAA to see what they say.

Thanks guys.

[helicopter-redeye]

As I see it, you have 14 exams in an ATPL(H)/IR theory. That's the 13 of an ATPL(H)/VFR + subject 092 (IFR communications).
(see FCL 2.470 (a) for Vfr and (d) for Ifr)



It's 13. with the IFR Comms (isn't it??) (i.e. 14 minus the Perf paper)

(I'm loosing track now..)

h-r;)

[FredFri]

It's 13. with the IFR Comms (isn't it??) (i.e. 14 minus the Perf paper)

(I'm loosing track now..)

h-r;)

Check FCL 2.470 (a) and (d) :
13 + IFR comms = 14 :)

[helicopter-redeye]

Having now read the entire JAR FCL2 in some detail I see that there is a Perf paper for H now, which must be the new bit (I did IFR Comms ).

h-r;)

[chester2005]

So what about the people already studying for the ATPLs under the UK CAA " interim" arrangement of 12 ATPL(A) subjects/exams and 1 P of F (H) exam.?

Are these people , myself included, wasting our time and will these exam passes be worthless?

Please tell me that's not so.:{ :{

Chester

[The Ferret]

thecontroller
The ATPLVFR is to cover guys flying big machines in mountains where they can't fly IFR anyway.
phil

...........the pilots in Switzerland should be happy with that!

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[paco]

Chester2005

I don't understand your confusion. Assuming you pass your exams in the next few months and gain an ATPL, why would it suddenly be worthless once issued? All this is only just being agreed and it still has to go through the British legal process so I would not expect anything to happen until at least July 2007.

The current interim system allows aeroplane exams to be credited towards a helicopter licence, so you won't have to do them again.

In any case, there will be improved crediting between the CPL and IR, and between (A) and (H), plus bridging exams. All this has still to be resolved, however.

The new equivalence will be:

ATPL(H)/IR = ATPL(A)
CPL(H) = CPL(A)
ATPL(VFR) = Old CPL(H)

The revised CQB will be out in early 2007 and the transition period could take up to 2 years, so there's plenty of time, although there is a specific helicopter course nearly ready, so this might be shorter.

There - clear as mud! :)

Phil

[thecontroller]

I have been told that there willl not be a new question bank for EASA.

[paco]

The powerpoint sheet I have from the NPA 25 meeting last month in the Belgrano says "revised CQB to NAAs in Jan 2007"

Phil

[thecontroller]

i stand corrected. i was told by the people that run the question bank website that there will not be a new one

i certainly would NOT want to be the first people taking EASA exams! all those new questions. what a nightmare.

[chester2005]

So when the revised CQB is brought into use , are all the questions changed or do they just add a proportion of new ones?:ugh:

The FAA system is so much more straightforward:ok:

Chester

[Bravo73]

the FAA system? unfortunately, that's TOO easy. it results in any monkey getting a licence


Oooh boy, controller, you are going to be in a world of pain now! :ouch:

[paco]

I suspect it will just be additions so the questions you are already familiar with should still be there ;)

The FAA system gives out the questions, certainly, BUT - they do not give out the answers - those in books are the author's opinions of what they should be, although, obviously, there is some sort of feedback system.

However, the written exams are not the real hurdle - the practical is the one to watch out for! This goes for Canada, as well. They are by no means a pushover, and I wouldn't have said they were necessarily easier - just more practical and relevant, or as chester says, more straightforward. At least you get the results back there and then and, more importantly, they tell you what you get wrong and suggest areas for review.

Phil

[thecontroller]

the FAA CPL theory exam takes about 2 weeks to study for

the JAA CPL theory exams takes at LEAST 5-6 months to study for and are far harder

the JAA system, with all it's many faults, results in only the true committed people with above average intelligence getting through

[HillerBee]

The FAA written is easy correct. But the oral is a real killer, if you only study 2 weeks you will never get a FAA license. When you past your JAA theoretical exams it's a piece of cake. The accent lies in JAA land on theoretical knowledge in the form of writtens. In FAA land you need to be able to explain almost everything. By the way did you know that about 50% of students in FAA land also never get a license?

[paco]

thecontroller

Studying the FAA questions takes about 2 weeks. Studying the whole syllabus properly is more like 3-4 months, at least. Same goes for Canada.

Phil

[Ready2Fly]

paco,
from JAR-FCL 2.470 i just read:(b) An applicant for the CPL(H) shall demonstrate a level of knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted in the following [9] subjects: Air Law; Aircraft General Knowledge; Flight Performance and Planning; Human Performance [ ]; Meteorology; Navigation; Operational Procedures; Principles of flight; [VFR] Communications. The breakdown of subjects into examination papers and times allowed will be agreed within JAA Member States [and stated in the associated procedures].Did i miss something or was it always 'just' 9 subjects? I always thought of 14 exams for CPL(H) - in germany at least i should say. :ooh:
If it was 14 before and is now 'down to 9' (excuse my wording, i still have respect for what you have to learn for CPL(H) level) i might think of going that route. I just passed my PPL(H) theory and do not plan to fly for a living, nevertheless i think a CPL(H) is a goal to aim for especially because i think about doing FI(H) later. At least in germany you have to proove CPL(H) knowledge to pass your FI(H). Therefore a FI(H) without getting your CPL(H) before does not make sense as you need to show your CPL(H) knowledge anyway at the LBA. It is just that i always thought getting the CPL(H) theory done with 14 exams is too much given that you have a job taking 10 to 12 hours of your day.

TIA,
Ready2Fly

[HillerBee]

The JAA CPL(H) has always been 9 exams. The ATPL is 14.

[thecontroller]

this is funny. everyone has their own interpretations of JAA/CPL/FCL/EASA/ATPL etc requirements

you ask a flight school and they just say "look in LASORS" or "phone the CAA"

so you phone up the CAA, and they dont know the answer either

classic stuff.

[Aesir]

I almost had a heart attack when I read about the rule change until I read Fredfri´s post about FCL 2.050 which in essence stipulates that everyone that passed CPL/IR under amendment 3 or earlier is not affected.

'Whirlygig' will you get by under that rule or have you decided to take the ATPL exams?

[Whirlygig]

Thanks Aesir, I'll join you in the coronary ward!

No, I haven't sat all the exams yet so I'm "in limbo". There's been nothing from my ground school provider about this change.

Cheers

Whirls

[Alex Whittingham]

The questions in the CQB are being renumbered to match the NPA25 syllabus. I think that is what they mean by 'revised CQB'. The renumbering should move duplicated material like INS and radio theory into individual subjects. I doubt many questions will be added, some will be deleted.

[Clear 2 Winch]

Ok so I've followed this so far. Another angle for those in the know..... Having gained a CPL(H)+IR with ATPL(H) theory credits, what is required to up grade to a full ATPL(H)? I belived it was to get a rating on a multicrew type with a two pilot IR on that type, is this true? if so who are the schools to approach for this and what is the cheapest (what a surprise) type on which to gain the requisit ratings? HELP :hmm:

[Aesir]

JAR-FCL2.280 says 1000TT, 100 night, 350 Multi crew helicopter and a skill test.

I have not heard of any schools prividing ATPL checkrides, that´s usually done by employer.

Yes you have to have experience and rating in a helicopter that requires multi crew either by manufacturer or JAA ops requirements.

[Clear 2 Winch]

Thanks, any further advice on the easiest route to getting the license outside of an employer, have the oppertunity and feel that my employment potential may be improved with a full license.

[kissmysquirrel]

Dont know why you would think you would be more employable with atpl. If you have cpl + ir it's pretty much same thing. You'll only get the upgrade if you fly offshore really. Not much call for it elsewhere unless working for some big outfit which does multipilot corporate stuff.

[paco]

I think you will find you also need 350 hours multi-crew for an ATPL....

It's virually unobtainable outside a company.

Phil