Special Branch and their interpretation of the Anti-Terrorism laws.

[Say again s l o w l y]

We have always had a close relationship with our local Special Branch in Glasgow, but recent staff changes have lead to few changes.
Below is the transcipt of a letter we recieved from them today.

"I am writing to you about the recent confusion regarding the memo sent out by staff at Cumbernauld Airport regarding pilots requirements under the Terrorism Act 2000.

As you are already aware, there is a requirement for anyone who is travelling by Light Aircraft form any Non Designated Airport within the UK to notify Special Branch, a minimum 12 hours prior to their journey.

This is not new Legislation, as stated in the memo , the Legislation is in fact ten years old.

The Terrorism Act 2000 states that;
"Where an aircraft is employed on a journey to which this paragraph applies otherwise than to carry passengers for reward, the captain of the aircraft shall not permit it to call or leave a port in Great Britain or Northern Ireland unless-
a) The port is a designated port, or
b) he gives at least 12 hours notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated."

NB. Where an aircraft is on a journey where passengers are being carried for reward, the captain is required to give a minimum of 24 hours notice.

There are only two designated airports in the Strathclyde area, these being Glasgow International Airport, and Glasgow Prestwick.

This means that any flight which begins at Cumbernauld, to anywhere in Great Britain, ( this includes Northern Ireland, and all of the Scottish Islands), must have had permission from Special Branch to fly, so therefore must have given a minimum of 12 hours notice prior to the flight departing.

It is the pilot of the Light Aircrafts responsibility to ensure that this has been complied with.

The information to be supplied to Special Branch is as follows:

1) The registration of the Aircraft
2) The pilots name, date of birth, home address, contact telephone number, (address in which the pilot will be staying upon arrival at his destination , if applicable ).
3) Port of Departure and Arrival
4) Date and time of departure from both Port of Departure and Port of Arrival
5) Make and Model of Aircraft
6) Where the aircraft normally operates from, and who the Aircraft owner is.
7) Passenger details (name, date of birth, home address)

Failure to submit any of the above information is an offence under the Terrorism Act, and could render the pilot of the aircraft subject to prosecution.

Strathclyde Police Ports Unit are aware that the weather is an important factor as to whether flights go ahead as planned. As previously stated a minimum of 12 hours notice is required, if the flight has to be cancelled, due to inclement weather, however the weather clears up and it is decided that the flight can now take place, a telephone call is sufficient, as long as the intial written notification has been submitted.

I hope this letter clears up any confusion regarding the recent memo which has been circulated by Cumbernauld Airport.

Please do not hesitate to contact either myself or any of my colleagues at the Ports Unit should you have any queries.

DC ........... ...............
Ports Unit
Glasgow Airport"


So my interpretation of this letter is that we are supposed to give them 12 hours notice of any flight within the UK and get permission, rather than just notify a constable.

We've already queried this again and it ended up in a very rude and defensive response from the DC involved.

So what does everyone else think.

[S-Works]

<This means that any flight which begins at Cumbernauld, to anywhere in Great Britain, ( this includes Northern Ireland, and all of the Scottish Islands), must have had permission from Special Branch to fly, so therefore must have given a minimum of 12 hours notice prior to the flight departing.>


He's having a laugh! Any flight from Cumbernauld to anywhere in great Britain requires SB permission!! I laughed so much my head fell off..........

We will be getiing SB permission to drive to the shops next.

[rustle]

This came up a couple/three years ago at Newcastle I think.

Have you inherited their SB man?

From memory the advice was tell them to shove it up their arses, but it might pay you to search the forum ;)

Special Branch Newcastle should help you find the thread I mean.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Actually, He's a She!

What worries me most, is that these are supposedly the folks looking after us. If they can't even get this right, what chance have we got against real and organised terrorists. If they ever caught any and went to court, they'd be ripped apart by even the daftest brief with stuff like this!

[ifonly]

Unfortunately there are 43 different police forces putting 43 different interpretations on Schedule 7 of the Terrorism act and anything that has superceded it. North Yorks police certainly don't view it that way.

From their website

" The Terrorism Act 2000, (as amended by the Crime & Security Act 2001) requires that all Aircraft entering/leaving the mainland of Great Britain to or from Northern Ireland, Eire, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands (Common Travel Area – CTA) must call at a designated Port.

The exception to this rule is if the pilot gives at least 12 hours notice in writing to the Police Force, in whose area he is landing or departing from, of his intention to use a non designated port. "

"Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act gives the police powers to examine any flight arriving or departing any airfield irrespective of its destination – this includes internal flights within the UK."

And from Sussex

"An integral part of the unit’s remit is dealing with aircraft flying to and from the ‘Common Travel Area’ of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and/or Eire, Isle of Man or the Channel Isles.

Aircraft flying to or arriving from other areas are also examined by our officers where required.

The owner/operator of an aircraft flying to or from locations within the Common Travel Area must seek ‘permission to fly’ from the Ports Unit, by means of completing and faxing a General Aviation Report, giving at least 12-hours’ notice of their flight."


I see that as having to give notice if flying to or from a CTA place to or from a non-designated airfield(as we have always done).

Having had a large amount of dealings with different Special Branches over the years this nearly always happens when a new bloke comes in and decides he knows better.

If PC Plod wants to come and talk to us on an internal flight he needs to get off his a**e and do so.

As far as I can see he cannot demand anything in advance for an internal flight.

[rustle]

Okay, it was 4 years ago.

See http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63139

and http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70490

If it's a she maybe she can use another orifice :O

[S205-18F]

Reading this letter suggests that to depart Cumbernauld and land at Perth (Scone) we need to submit a GAR form! So every time a student wishes to do his XCQ he needs to submit 2 etc! I think we should do that and see what response we get when they have to deal with hundreds if not thousands of GAR forms.:E

[ifonly]

Having looked at the Strathclyde Police website I can find no mention of Ports policing.
Special Branch doesn't appear under the 'Specialist Units' but the 'Strathclyde Police Pipe Band' does !!!
Perhaps the management hold them in the same regard that we are starting to ?

[ifonly]

Just found the bit he/she/it ? (conveniently) left out.
In the letter he has quoted paragraph 12(2) of the Terrorism Act. He seems to have omitted paragraph 12(1) which states:-
(1) This paragraph applies to a journey-
(a) to Great Britain from the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands,
(b) from Great Britain to any of those places,
(c) to Northern Ireland from Great Britain, the Republic of Ireland or any of the Islands, or
(d) from Northern Ireland to any of those places.
Write to the Chief Constable and report him for attempting to abuse his powers.

[ifonly]

Apologies he was quoting Para 12(3)

Full schedule 7 here:-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2000/00011--t.htm

[Say again s l o w l y]

This would be laughable, if it wasn't for the fact that this SB unit has already given one of our chaps a written warning under the Terrorism Act for not having given 12 hours notice.

Supposedly he'd already had a verbal warning about this previously (though the DC who supposedly gave him this has denied it totally. Unfortunately he's left the ports unit now, but will give us a statement to confirm this.) basically the DC involved has been caught out telling porkies and is now trying to make life difficult for us, but I think they've underestimated hom much we enjoy a fight, especially when we're in the right!

What actually happened was there was a delay to a flight due to poor Wx. Another pilot said he would do it since he had an IR. SB was telephoned and asked if we could make a late change. This was agreed by them, but later on they dragged him in saying that he'd not give 12hrs notice of the change in writing............

Now we get this crap from them.....:yuk:

It's really shot my faith in the boys (and girls) in blue.

Rustle, thanks for that. AOPA are next on the list to get a copy of this letter, closely followed by as many MP's as possible!

[ProfChrisReed]

Apologies he was quoting Para 12(3)

Full schedule 7 here:-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2000/00011--t.htm

Para 12(1) - which you quoted earlier - also applies to para 12(3).

In other words, SB has no powers to require you to seek permission for internal flights.

Complain to the Chief Constable - if no response, complain to the Police Complaints Authority. Even a threat to do the latter should get the attention of the offending [sic] officer.

[pistongone]

Am i missing something here?

(a) to Great Britain from the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands,
(b) from Great Britain to any of those places,
(c) to Northern Ireland from Great Britain, the Republic of Ireland or any of the Islands, or
(d) from Northern Ireland to any of those places

I am no lawyer, but my geography is ok i believe. So how can you fly from Great Britain to Northern Ireland ? Aren't N.I, Channel Islands and The IoM all PART of GREAT BRITAIN? Also as i mentioned in a different thread, I have never seen any official type presence at Lydd Int!! Although it is one of the Designated A/P's!!!

[ifonly]

Great Britain does not include Northern Ireland.
The sovereign state is the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.'

[IO540]

S.A.S.

I just don't believe any of this is for real. Much better brains than me have had a look at the legislation and nothing is required within the UK, and also no permission is required.

The Plod have the powers to stop you going, sure, but they will (eventually) have to come up with a reason for having in effect arrested you.

The last person to ask for an interpretation of the law is PC Plod. Like army recruits, they are not picked for being PhD material. Those half smart go for CID.

[Say again s l o w l y]

IO, unfortunately it is all too real. I'm sitting here with the letter next to me. If I wasn't concerned by it, I would be laughing like a hyena over this. My original post is the letter that arrived this morning. Typo's and all. I've just left the individuals names out.

Whilst your average PC may not be Einstein, they aren't that daft and I would hope they would have at least a basic grasp of the laws they are paid to uphold. If not, why don't they just arrest everyone and let the courts sort out the guilty from the innocent. (Hmm, the cynic in me sees the flaw in that argument already!)

It seems they are now saying to just "rip up the letter if there is anything in it you don't understand. We'll come and see and tell you in person and explain." Methinks there maybe a bit of back peddling going on! The contents of the letter show total incompetance and I wonder if they want it to disappear! If I don't post within the next 24 hours, you'll know they've got to me!!

[jabberwok]

Aren't N.I, Channel Islands and The IoM all PART of GREAT BRITAIN?

No. And only Northern Ireland is in the United Kingdom.

[Say again s l o w l y]

One thing that is confusing me slightly is the phrase "(1) This paragraph applies to a journey-
(a) to Great Britain from the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands."

Which Islands are they talking about. Have I missed a definition somewhere? Does the Isle of Wight count? The Hebridies? etc..... Since this is what we have been told by SB up here and just by reading this, it seems to support their assumption.

Or am I just being thick and paranoid?

[rustle]

Which Islands are they talking about.

Or am I just being thick and paranoid?

"The Islands" will be defined somewhere, but expect that to mean Jersey/Guernsey/Alderney and Isle of Man - the usual suspects ;)

It is understandable to be paranoid when idiots are given authority to write letters such as the one you quoted from.

[pistongone]

Well it is a bit quiet in the office this morning, so i just did a bit of research so as to educate myself on my lack of knowledge regarding the terminology of Great Britain etc etc. Here's what i found, i hope this helps with the problem, it sure surprised me! I still seem to remember that Mary Peters was quoted as being a british athlete, running for GB etc? I must be wrong though!

GREAT BRITAIN, THE UNITED KINGDOM,
THE BRITISH ISLES, BRITISH ISLANDS




Many are not aware of the precise meaning of the term "Great Britain". Even many British are unaware of the precise reality that the term expresses. Try asking a person living in the United Kingdom the exact meaning of the expression they have on their passports: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Many will not be able to provide an adequate answer. No wonder, therefore, that confusion also exists outside the United Kingdom and that in other European countries people erroneously group together the English, Scottish and Welsh under the word in their own language meaning "English". Hence, for example, the French commonly group them together in the term "anglais" and the Italians "inglesi"). This can be a cause of offence for the Scottish and the Welsh.
Here we shall try to explain the meaning of the terms "Great Britain", "United Kingdom", "British Islands" and "British Isles" as wells as the political and geographical realities that they express.


Great Britain
Great Britain is the largest island in Europe. "Great Britain" is the collective name for the three countries of England, Scotland and Wales. It also includes the small adjacent islands but it does not include the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.
The term "Great Britain" came into being when England and Scotland became a single kingdom under King James VI of Scotland who also became King James I of England, after the death of Queen Elizabeth I in 1603. It must be remembered, however, that this was not a political union but merely the union of the crowns of the two countries. Politically they were still two states, each with its own Parliament.1 Political union came about only during the reign of Queen Anne, in 1707. It was in this year that the Scottish Parliament assembled for the last time and the formal union of Parliaments was effected. It was on 1 May of that same year that the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" came into existence.
Under Edward I the conquest of Wales was completed and Wales was united to England under Henry VIII, the second monarch descended from the Welsh House of Tudor. 2 This union was ratified by two Acts of Parliament in 1536 and again in 1543.

The adjective "British"
The adjective "British" is, of course, used in relation to Great Britain but there is also a common tendency to use it when referring to issues relating to both Great Britain and the United Kingdom. This is inaccurate and from a legal point of view erroneous.
Sometimes, however, in legislation the term "British" is used to refer to the United Kingdom as a whole, especially in matters relating to the question of nationality. 3




The United Kingdom
The United Kingdom is made up of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The official name "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" came into use in 1922 after the constitution of the Irish Free State (1922-1937), the former name of the Republic of Ireland.
The whole of Ireland had been united to Great Britain by an Act of Parliament in 1800 and which took effect in January 1801. 4 However, this union had never been popular in Ireland and became the target of Irish Nationalist leaders ever since. The union of the whole of Ireland with Great Britain lasted until the constitution of the Irish Free State. The Treaty that sanctioned the separation laid down that the six counties in the north should remain united to Great Britain hence constituting Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom but not part of Great Britain.
Therefore, the United Kingdom of Great Britain, used to indicate the political union of England, Scotland and Wales, was expanded, in the 20th century, to include Northern Ireland: the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" as it now appears on passports.


When speaking of the United Kingdom and its constituent parts it is important to use the correct terminology. In 1969 the Royal Commission on the Constitution was set up with the aim of examining the relation between central legislature and government on one hand and the "several countries, nations and regions of the United Kingdom" on the other. The words "countries", "nations" and "regions" reveal a certain vagueness which was eventually resolved by the Report of the Commission. 5

The Isle of Man and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey are not part of Great Britain, they are not part of the United Kingdom and neither are they part of the European Union. They are self-governing British Crown dependencies.



The British Islands
The expression "British Islands" has been defined in the Interpretation Act 1978 as meaning the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. The Republic of Ireland is not included in this definition.



The British Isles
The expression "British Isles" is geographical and not political. They are a group of islands off the northwest coast of Europe consisting of Great Britain, the whole of Ireland, the Orkney and Shetland Islands, the Isle of Man, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the Isle of Wight, the Scilly Islands, Lundy Island, the Channel Islands and many other smaller islands. A list of the main islands of Great Britain is to be found on another page on this site.




Notes
1 Art. 1 of the Treaty of Union between England and Scotland in 1707.
2 The Tudor dynasty was descended from the Welsh adventurer Owen Tudor (c. 1400-1461). Wales had already been conquered by Edward I and the conquest was sealed with the Statute of Rhuddlan, also known as the Statute of Wales, in 1284. In the first half of the sixteenth century, under the reign of Henry VIII, acts of union were passed and Wales sent representatives to the English Parliament. After the union of the two countries Wales had no effective government and Welsh laws and administration were replaced by the English. The Welsh saw this as an annexation of their country.
3 Cfr. Interpretation Act 1978, Sched. 1. By the British Nationality Act 1981, s. 50 (1), the United Kingdom includes the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man for the purposes of nationality law.
4 Art. 1 of the Act of Union created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Since medieval times Ireland had had its own Parliament. By the end of the 18th century this Parliament had enjoyed only limited power due to political pressure from England. After the break with Rome during the reign of Henry VIII and particularly after Cromwell, the Irish Parliament effectively became the voice of the Protestant minority in Ireland as all members of Parliament had to take the Oath of Supremacy recognising the monarch as head of the Church. This was obviously incompatible with the Roman Catholic religion of the vast majority of Irishmen. An interesting allegorical account of the English treatment of Ireland inspired by the planned union of England and Scotland can be found in Jonathan Swift's The Story of the Injured Lady. To complement the ideas contained in this tract, written from the point of view of a member of the Anglo-Irish community, one might also read one or two Irish ballads in which the indigenous Irish abhorred their increasing dependence on England. Swift's The Story of the Injured Lady and the Irish ballads are available on the site "Irish Literary Texts".
5 The report of the commission does much to clarify the question of terminology. It speaks of the four "countries" that make up the United Kingdom: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Not sure how this affects the original post though?

[dublinpilot]

One thing that is confusing me slightly is the phrase "(1) This paragraph applies to a journey-
(a) to Great Britain from the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands."

Which Islands are they talking about. Have I missed a definition somewhere?

Found it!

Section 121 Terrorism Act 2000 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--i.htm#121)

121. In this Act-
[...]

"the Islands" means the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man,

I hope that helps!

dp

[Say again s l o w l y]

Thanks for that! I think that clears it all up. Time to get stuck in, I'm going to enjoy this!

[FLCH-SPD]

Say again s l o w l y, keep us posted! :ok:

[wbryce]

Thanks for that! I think that clears it all up. Time to get stuck in, I'm going to enjoy this!

Its a nice day, go flying!

.....but remember, file with SB! :E

This should be an interesting topic to follow, can remember first hearing in May our local SB were out to make an example of someone! Be rather hiliarious if it back fires...

From what I know, SB's picked the only two people who were most likely to argue and fight their corner of any wrong doing...I think we know this legislation better than them.

[dublinpilot]

Thanks for that! I think that clears it all up. Time to get stuck in, I'm going to enjoy this!

SAS,

Please beaware that the customs requirements are slightly different before you 'get stuck in'.

Flights outside the EU are different to flights inside the EU for Customs purposes.

The Channel Islands are outside the EU, and are specifically mentioned on the GAR form.

I understand that the Isle of Mann is also outside the EU, but have some sort of special status, so I'm not sure how they are treated for Customs purposes.

See my posting on this thread. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251001)

dp

[Say again s l o w l y]

I don't mess with Customs, but Special Branch are a different matter, especially since this is specifically to do with their (mis)reading of the Terrorism Act 2000.

[Justiciar]

There seems to be alot of unnecessary confusion about the effect of the Terrorism Act 2000. Schedule 7 applies to flights to and from the common travel area and from or to Great Britain. The requirement is fly from a designated airport or give twelve hours notice to the police. There is no requirement or power for the police to authorise the flight unless it is for hire or reward.

The common travel area is Northern Ireland, the Republic, Isle of Man and Channel Islands. The Channel Islands are the last possessions held by the Crown which once formed part of the Dutchy of Normandy. The Queen's position as the islands' head of state is often considered to be that of the Duke of Normandy and not be virtue of being Queen of England.

I don't understand how this nonsense has remained in force, since a flight to say the Channel Islands via a stop over at Le Touquet, for example, is not subject to the legislation.

[dublinpilot]

I don't understand how this nonsense has remained in force, since a flight to say the Channel Islands via a stop over at Le Touquet, for example, is not subject to the legislation.

Are you not just substituting your SB notification with Immigration notification?

Being based in the ROI, I'm not as familiar with this side of things.

dp

[IO540]

If you go to Ireland/IOM/CI you have to notify SB but if you go there via a landing in France you don't have to notify anybody because the UK has no exit Customs or Immigration.

This is quite unusual. Many countries, and probably most/all "3rd world" ones, have exit Customs, which is a real hassle because it can seriously restrict the departure airport. Switzerland for example has a number of such airfields but some are "Exit Customs on request" and you just fax a 6hrs' (?) notice, nobody ever turns up, and you fly.

So, if you have forgotten to fax SB, or PC Plod refuses to let you go (does anybody have first hand knowledge of such a case, and the full details??) then just go via France. You waste a bit of time but not 12 hours.

All this stuff is stupid. The IRA worked out the route about 40 years ago, I am certain.

[pistongone]

IO540 you are spot on, i agree the system is in the dark ages! How many times have they even had so much as a verified piece of intelligence gained through this system, let alone actually caught any one in the process of naughtyness? And how much have we all spent going to pointless airfields going through the hoops? I never quite understood why the Channel Islands were included? I haven't noticed an over supply of Irish Folk on the Islands! Why not Lundy as well?

[llanfairpg]

Evening all!

Dont be too hard on SB, remember most are failed policemen thats why they sit in an office all day with nothing to do except to try and think of something that may make them look important.

[dublinpilot]

So, if you have forgotten to fax SB, or PC Plod refuses to let you go (does anybody have first hand knowledge of such a case, and the full details??) then just go via France. You waste a bit of time but not 12 hours.


Ok. But if you are only going for a day trip, then you still have problem, as you can't return directly without giving SB & Customs the required notice, nor can you return via France without giving Customs & Immigration the required notice. Works ok, for an over night trip, but not for a lunch trip.

Incidently, what are the Immigration notification periods? Immigration barely seems to be mentioned on the GAR form, (and aren't required for flights covered by SB.)

dp

[LH2]

I'm not directly concerned as I do not fly in the UK for the moment, but if I may ask a question... if you do not tell SB you will be going from A to B, how will they know, which they'll have to in order to prosecute you? And if they do get to know you've been from A to B without you telling them, then why do you need to go and tell them in the first place if they're going to find out anyhow? :confused:

[IO540]

They get copies of flight plans sent to them, and/or they have access to airport arrivals/departures website feeds, and/or they get notified by ATC.

All the above is 2nd hand info :)

But they do find out, as I discovered once last year coming back from the CI. They waited for me for 2 hours (I was late departing, and headwind was stronger than planned for). We got a 1 hour interview, obviously just going through the motions of feeling super important.

[Justiciar]

As I said earlier, none of this applies if you fly via a designated airport, so if you have not got your notice in in time just land first at a designated airport and file a flight plan from there (assuming you can afford the landing fees, of course).

IO540: PC Plod cannot refuse to let you go, since the requirement is to notify them and not to obtain their permission. Any police officer who states the contrary is wrong. True the police can stop a particular flight, but this is not the same as saying that every flight needs their permission - it doesn't.

nor can you return via France without giving Customs & Immigration the required notice

This only applies if you are re-entering the country other than through an airfield designated for customs and immigration, of which there are many more than those designated under the Terrorism Act. It should not be a problem to land and clear customs on route to your home airfield.

[bookworm]

Thanks for that! I think that clears it all up. Time to get stuck in, I'm going to enjoy this!

It's undoubtedly a disgrace that a police officer could so misundertsand the legislation as to write that letter. But I'd suggest caution in the way that you approach any complaint. Stress that the GA community is an important ally in protection against terrorism, and that we'll try very hard to help the police in whatever way is appropriate but that it's important that the legislation is clearly understood by all.

[WorkingHard]

If I may just emphasise something already said; YOU DO NOT NEED SB PERMISSION. The Act requires a notification only and a GenDec to Customs is not part of the Terrorisn Act 2000. Justiciar said a flight for hire and reward can be stopped by SB, on what grounds please and where is the authority to which you refer?
I had an occasion a few years ago when a SB officer attempted to stop my departure to IOM from an unscheduled stop at a major airport in the UK. He was unsuccessful in 5 minuts flat after one telephone call to his HO. Only on one other opccasion has it been a problem. I was outbound to Jersey and was getting nowhere with SB so simply changed to Le Touquet and then to Jersey. SB did not like it one little bit but ce la vie. On no other occasion has there been any difficulty so it just is down an idiotic (very rare) PC Plod.

[S-Works]

I had a problem with SB trying to fly from Sandown to CI once. I had filed from home but had to stop at Sandownd for an unexpected fuel stop. Re filed the flight plan and SB form. A PC from the SB unit down there phoned me and told me I could not do the flight as I had not given 12hrs notice. i pointed out that I had filed from home to CI and this was an unplanned stop. He was adamant that I could not go. Got the right hump when I told him to forget it and that I would go via Cherbourg.

I don't have any problems with coming and going from our place at Spanhoe and that is not listed as a designated port. Myabe Northants police are more enlightened!

[dublinpilot]

Justiciar said a flight for hire and reward can be stopped by SB, on what grounds please and where is the authority to which you refer?


Terrorism Act 2000, Sch 7, Paragraph 12 (2) (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--t.htm#sch7)
(2) Where a ship or aircraft is employed to carry passengers for reward on a journey to which this paragraph applies the owners or agents of the ship or aircraft shall not arrange for it to call at a port in Great Britain or Northern Ireland for the purpose of disembarking or embarking passengers unless-

(a) the port is a designated port, or
(b) an examining officer approves the arrangement.


Paragraph 12(3) deals with flights other than ones carrying passesgers for rewards, and in this case only requires notice.

dp

[Say again s l o w l y]

Don't worry Bookworm. I'm not going after them with napalm, but I am letting my concerns known and asking them to justify their comments all in the spirit of police co-operation. It has been strangely quiet though, despite them promising faithfully that they would contact us today.

It seems everyone at the airfield recieved these letters, so it's not just me asking questions.

[dublinpilot]

if you do not tell SB you will be going from A to B, how will they know,

I had a "Meeting" with special branch earlier this year. I had faxed them my GAR forms but they couldn't find it.

I my case, the airport informed them of my foreign arrival, and asked them if they wanted to come see me. Since they didn't have a GAR form, they decided to come see me.

I explained that I had faxed them. They said that that was insufficient, and that I had actually to ring them up and get a reference number before traveling. To back up their point of view, they produced their guidance notes, which said that I actually required their permission.

Not having read the legislation at the time, I had little choice be to accept their version of the legislation and appologise, and promise to ring for the reference number in future.

EVERY pilot making a flight which SB notification is required should keep a copy of their GAR and fax transmittion report with them on the flight. They should also read the relevant part of the legislation....linked in my post above. It's not very long, and not very complicated. Print out the relevant part of Schedule 7, and bring it with you in the aircraft. Had I done that, I would have been able to properly defend myself.

Obviously any flights I make, for which SB notification is required, I now bring along a copy of my fax, the confirmation page, and the relevant part of the leglisation. They can throw their guidance notes in the bin, if I have the Act itself.

This shouldn't be necessary, but the reality is the each force deals with this differently. For some it's a piece of paper work. For some, "it's a file in GAR file". For some it's a "What's this all about?". But for some it's the most important job ever....even if they dont' understand the legislation. Make sure you are ready, and know that leglisation. You'll read it all the relevant bit in 5 minutes.

dp

[ifonly]

Say Again - check your PMs

[Say again s l o w l y]

Thanks for that Ifonly.

We started to keep copies of all correspondance with SB in the last few months. faxes are sent via the computer with logs showing it, we also ask that SB themselves send us confirmation that they have recieved the fax.

Basically we don't trust them anymore as it seems they are out to "get us". I'm mortified by this as we've always tried our hardest to keep them informed of what's going on, anything that we've seen etc.etc. This has even included nights where we have invited SB along to talk to all our members to make sure we all know what to do.

Then all of a sudden there is a change of officers and it all goes t*ts up. They've trashed the good relationship we had for no reason. How this is helping to keep our country safe I will never know.

[Justiciar]

Beat me to it dublinpilot.

Some very sound advice there. You could actually do worse than buy an official copy of the Act, with Schedule 7 para 12 marked. Never assume the police actually know the law just because they assert something as being the law :ugh:

[neutron]

I was involved with the nonsense from SB at Newcastle a few years ago. I had a vigorous telephone conversation with an officer regarding their interpretation of the act - requiring that I gave them 12 hours notice of my trips from Newcastle to the IOM. No amount of my telling him that as Newcastle was a designated port under the act, I could turn up, inform SB and depart, did any good at all. It ended in me politely telling him that I considered his interpretation was wrong and ending the call.
Later that day, I had a call from a senior officer, telling me that I was correct. I have had no further problems.
My advice is to the flyers at Cumbernauld is most definitely to challenge SB. As has been said by others, there is no requirement for notification of any private flight to SB - other than one to Northern Ireland, Eire and the Islands (IOM & CIs).
It's also about time that someone tested the wording that only requires the 12hrs notice to be given to 'a police constable'. My reading of that is that if you inform the airfield's local plod - you have complied. No mention of SB in
the act! Any body tried this yet?

[IO540]

Justiciar

none of this applies if you fly via a designated airport

I know you know this but it's worth mentioning that an airport can be "designated" for Customs and not be "designated" under the TA 2000.

Examples are Farnborough and Shoreham.

However, on the commonly distributed GAR form, there is a mistake. Farnborough is correctly identified as an exception but Shoreham isn't. However, Plod keep an keen eye on Shoreham-arriving flight plans and they don't give a damn about this mistake.

[DFC]

Beat me to it dublinpilot.
Some very sound advice there. You could actually do worse than buy an official copy of the Act, with Schedule 7 para 12 marked. Never assume the police actually know the law just because they assert something as being the law :ugh:

No. All that a pilot needs to do is ensure that they are aware of and comply with the requirements notified in the AIP GEN 1.2.

Perhaps if pilots read the document designed to convey such requirements to them then we would not have this situation.

Read the AIP!!!

5.3 The captain of an aircraft not employed to carry passengers for reward and coming to Great Britain from the Republic of
Ireland, Northern Ireland or any of the Islands or going from Great Britain to any other of those places shall not, without the approval of
an examining officer, permit the aircraft to call or leave an airport in Great Britain other than a designated airport.

.........

5.5 If a pilot or an aircraft operator wishes to make a flight to or from a non-designated airport without an intermediate landing at a
designated airport, he must seek prior permission from the Chief Officer of Police in whose area the non-designated airport is located.
In practice this is usually via the force Special Branch and should be done as far in advance as possible of the flight being made. (Most
Police forces require at least 24 hours notice either directly or via the airport operator).

..........

There is more dealing with forced landings due to weather, shortage of fuel etc which back-up the police position in some posts above.

While there is no requirements with regard to internal GB flights, for all others perhaps before pilots jump up and claim the Police are wrong, they should get their own facts straight.

Regards,

DFC

[dublinpilot]

DFC,

Sorry to disappoint you, but your information is old.

In the AIP, the Paragraph 5.1 in Gen1.2 says that the Terrorism ACT 2000 has come into effect.
5.1 The Terrorism Act 2000 came into operation on 19 February 2001, replacing the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1989.

The information in the following paragraphs, the ones that you quoted, refer to the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989. The wording you quote from the AIP, is virtually word for word, from Schedue 5, Paragraphs 8(2) and 8(4). These were replaced by the Terrorism Act 2000.

You can see the old act by clicking here. (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1989/Ukpga_19890004_en_13.htm#sdiv5)

I will admit that the AIP could make it clearer in line 5.1 that the subsequent lines are replaced by the Terrorism Act 2000.



dp

[Justiciar]

DFC:

You need to consider what an AIP is. Under ICAO Annex 15 it is a publication " ... containing aeronautical information of a lasting character essential to air navigation" (my emphasis).

Therefore, whilst the AIP will set out the legal position it is not the source of the law, which is the Act. In any case of conflict the Act would always prevail. Simply arguing that you have complied with the AIP will not get you off the hook if you have not complied with the legislation. The relevant legislation here (under which you would be prosecuted!) is the Terrorism Act 2000, as amended.

The AIP is indeed wrong, as it mis-states the current law as contained in the 2000 Act.

[englishal]

I heard a story of some people coming back from the CI to some airfield in the UK. They got a call from Solent that they were to divert to Southampton, which they did and were met by SB. SB Carted them off and interviewed them, it turns out that SB had "lost" the GAR. The matter was eventually cleared up and they were sent on their way. By this time the destination would have been shut, so they had to pay to keep the airfield open, plus the other costs just because SB bollocked up.

Why can't there be an online system which send the reports to the relevant police force and issued a confirmation number? Seems like an easy task an A level compuing student could knock up in half a day.......

[Say again s l o w l y]

Because that would be simple and straight forward. I've asked numerous times why we don't have such a system since it would benefit us and the police. Who knows, they could even send the details to immigration and customs, thereby taking as much potential error out as possible, but that would be too much like common sense.

[S-Works]

We don't need a technlogy answer for a problem that should not exist in the first place. The SB notification should just be binned. We can travel around Europe without a problem but we can't travel within our own Isles. There is sooo much wrong with that concept.

Notifying SB of lights does nothing to aid security. Terrorists have become far more sophisticated these days and recruit natives ready to die for the "cause". The IRA have laid down arms and put the job in the hands of the politicians. The last time I looked the CI and IOM were not exactly a hot bed of terrorism. The "threat" we face these days is illegal immigrant smuggling and agian I do not see any of that from our Isles!

The last time I looked the government and the police were here to protect and serve us the people or did we become a police state while I was in bed?

[DFC]

DFC,
Sorry to disappoint you, but your information is old.


Dublin Pilot and Justiciar,

The quote is from the current amendment of the AIP and thus as far as the CAA are concerned it is up to date. Please write to the CAA and let them know your opinion that they are wrong!

Do you think that a pilot from France is going to purchase the relevant Acts of every country they will fly to or from. No they will not unless they have money to waste. They will simply look up the AIP.

If that French pilot decides they want to fly from Farmer Tom's strip to Alderney and then back to their home base they will simply do what the AIP says and provided they do that they will not have a problem.

Failure to comply with requirements notified in the AIP can get you in trouble with the CAA as well as the police!

One does not need permission to leave from a designated airport. The reason why "permission" comes into non-designated airfields is that the police can refuse your request. Reasons for refusal can be simply that they want to inspect the flight but do not have the manpower to go out to some farm strip in the middle of nowhere or that they can not be there at the time requested.

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

DFC

You are thankfully WRONG about where the primary legislation is sitting, but you have a fair point about pilots relying on the AIP.

The CAA has to put this right. Somebody ought to write to them, giving the proper references. They aren't stupid; they will fix it.

Otherwise, the police will not miss the chance to prevent people flying to the CI/IOM/Ireland by pretending they don't have the manpower.

This kind of situation already exists in many places abroad, with the "PPR" business. Take Corfu (LGKR) for example: the Notam says 24hrs PPR is required, but the airport officials say they need 5 days. You also don't need a permission (24hrs' notice is enough) but they like to treat it as such, faxing you back with a permission letter.

Personally, I have fixed this "problem" by setting up a laptop with Winfax and faxing the flight details of every foreign flight (departure and arrival) to all 3 lots of people, the day before, with a statement "flight may be cancelled due to weather". They are probably sick of it most of the time, but it's safe.

[Say again s l o w l y]

The latest is that the officer concerned "isn't in today", but I had a good chat with her boss' boss. Who's not a happy chappy about this. He's agreed it's all nonsense, but is continuing to say that we should give notification if we fly to the Scottish Isles. He's coming in to see us all this afternoon so I've told him to don his lead pants.

What a waste of time.....

[Justiciar]

One does not need permission to leave from a designated airport. The reason why "permission" comes into non-designated airfields is that the police can refuse your request
Isn't that (almost) what I said originally. There is a vast difference between needing permission and a power to prevent a particular flight. Informing the police under the provisions of the Terrorism Act 2000 is not a request, it is the supply of information. What the police choose to do with that information is up to them.
As IO540 said, you need to be clear what the origins of the law are in this country. The Law is made by Parliament, either through Act such as the Terrorism Act or through regulations (ANO for example) most approved by a parliamentary process. Law is not made by the AIP, which merely purports to tell people what the law is, sometimes incorrectly.
Yes, I agree that a foreign pilot will tend to look at the AIP. This does not make the AIP right, nor will it legally be a defence should anyone be charged with failing to comply with the provisions of the Act. Don't think for one moment that quoting the AIP to SB will help you. The police enforce the Act not the AIP (which is prepared by the CAA for the purposes of information to airmen and with whom the police have no connection).
What all pilots need to be clear about is what the law is, which is why I suggested a copy of the Act to waive under their noses. A copy of the Act printed on the authority of parliament is difficult to argue with.

continuing to say that we should give notification if we fly to the Scottish Isles. He's coming in to see us all this afternoon so I've told him to don his lead pants.

What cr*p. I suggest you print of the parts of the 2000 Act which cover the situation, namely Schedule 7 and the definition of which islands the rule applies to.

[Stafford]

A quick look at everyone's log book is in order I think. We are all criminals and terrorists obviously - what a plonker of a plod !! Get them back on speed camera duty, stat !

Do I have to give the whisky back then ? :}

[IO540]

nor will it legally be a defence should anyone be charged with failing to comply with the provisions of the Act.

I recall someone here (who I know is a barrister, but not Tudor Owen) posting on this general subject. Ignorance is no defence but if the Govt (the CAA) publishes something which is wrong, it's a reasonable defence because the public has a reasonable entitlement to a correction.

The Plod won't give a damn of course and if you make a fuss they will arrest you and lock you up, but that is as far as it can possibly go. I can't believe anybody would get convicted, because you have a right to a solicitor and he will turn up the relevant page and show it to them.

However, better to bring this into the open before somebody does get locked up.

[metar]

I am planning on flying Cumbernauld to Islay on Friday... do we think I legally HAVE to give 12 hours notice for that flight? It's not IOM of Jersey afterall!

The aforementioned officer had said that a flight to Oban would need permission. Last time I landed there it appeared to be attached to the rest of Scotland?!

Answers on a postcard for my jaunt on Friday!

[denhamflyer]

Just in case this is useful here is a link to the act.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2000/20000011.htm

Schedule 7 seems to be the key part.

[Say again s l o w l y]

It's all sorted. The Boss came in to see us today and after all of this, they have totally backed down and agreed with everything we have put to them. I did print out the Act and highlighted all the salient points, but it wasn't necessary as they didn't argue.

He has even promised to sort out the snafu that ended up with one of our chaps getting a written warning.

So to make it all clear. As we all know, you only need to give 12 hours notification if you are going to IOM, CI, Eire or Northern Ireland. You do not need to give notice if you are going to any other islands. You certainly won't be needing to give notice if you are flying within the UK!

A victory for common sense, but what a waste of effort. Thanks for all the advice.

[rustle]

Nice one. :D

[dublinpilot]

Glad to hear it all worked out.

Was the original SB officer doing a "solo run" and his boss knew better, or did his boss quickly educate himself after the complaints?

dp

[Say again s l o w l y]

The boss had some of the same ideas, specifically about the definition of Islands, but they seem to have "educated" themselves. From the sound of it, I don't think we'll be seeing the original officer anymore either.......

[ifonly]

Bit much when youhave to tell 'plod' what the law actually says.:ugh:

[Bluebeard777]

Interesting story - well done, Say Again!
As a fairly frequent sender of the General Aviation Report Forms, I know that police forces all over the UK have different ideas as to how the Act is to be applied in practice. Most seem to believe that some form of "permission" must be obtained from them. I don't know how a visitor to these islands from some other part of Europe is supposed to cope with the lack of uniformity and sheer awkwardness of the decentralised system.
The first issue that the foreign visitor is faced with is who to send the GAR form to? The fax numbers on the commonly-used form are mostly obsolete. Guides such as Pooleys don't tell you which police force covers each airfield. Usually it takes at least several phone calls to identify a person or number to send the form to - then the number doesn't work or is engaged. Even after you succeed in sending it, it seems to frequently be the case that Officer X, who is responsible for this in his force, doesn't actually get the form. So if you're challenged you'd better have proof that your fax/email was sent to a relevant number. Then eventually when you have got someone to deal with, and make the same flight again 6 months later, he/she has been ressigned and you have the same palaver all over again.
I too have been subjected to long delays after arriving at non-TA designated airfields while the police check up my "story" that I did send them the GAR form 12 hours earlier.:=
I too have also been refused permission to leave a TA designated airport (not Newcastle!) without giving 12 hours notice.
One midlands police force's website - I cant find it tonight - says that it wants all flights arriving into its area from outside the UK to give 12 hours GAR form notice; this would include private flights from say France, which are not covered by the Act as quoted above.
Many police forces appear to believe emphatically that their explicit permission is required to fly privately to/from a non-TA designated GB airfield. In practice for my one-off flights I just have to humour them - educating the police can only lead to a pyrrhic victory at best.
If all this nonsense was conferring some obvious security benefit for the UK it would be easier to understand. The logic (if any) of why a flight from Alderney or IoM to England should require more scrutiny than one from Cherbourg escapes me entirely..........:ugh:

[tescoapp]

Personally I reckon there has been a bit of emailing been going on.

I know one of the strathclyde police dive team has a PPL and he ain't the shy retiring type. Especially in the Oban bar.

A couple of the Chief inspectors have been seen out in PIK in light aircraft so I wouldn't be suprised if the old emails have gone up then come down thanks to PPrune.

Maybe highlighting which forces have miss-information would clear things up.

[BigEndBob]

We had the local SB pop in one Sunday afternoon (double time?), to request that they have all our memebers e-mail addresses as well as normal details, for their files....might be a while before they get'em.

[tescoapp]

err why do they need them? And under what legislation can they require them.

What next a DNA sample to add to the database?

[flystrathclyde]

I am the 'chap' referred to in 'Say Again Slowly' quote below.

This would be laughable, if it wasn't for the fact that this SB unit has already given one of our chaps a written warning under the Terrorism Act for not having given 12 hours notice.

SB visited our RTF yesterday to clarify to myself & 'Say Again Slowly' that their information WAS wrong and the information we had been abiding by WAS CORRECT. A total backdown and things should get back to normal.

Thanks to all the constructive input on this forum.

However, this is not yet the end of the matter

[Justiciar]

What the police can ask you for under the Terrorism Act 2000 is set out in the "Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 (Information) Order 2002"

It is here, for anyone who wants to read it:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20021945.htm

It does not include email addresses :E

[neutron]

Great result and a wonderful illustration of the way the power of the internet has enabled a widely dispersed group with similar interests to share information and experiences.
At one time this sort of unilateral action by SB would have gone un-noticed in the wider aviation community - not any more. All sorts of useful information and personal results of encounters posted, as well as links to the various Acts, AIP etc.
I intend to test the matter of informing the police under Schedule 7.12.3b which states that a pilot shall not fly from a non-designated port to the IOM, CIs, Eire or NI unless......he gives at least 12 hours notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated .....by handing written notice to the local plod not SB, next time a have a flight that qualifies. I'll post the result of that encounter here!
Good work by all.

neutron

[dublinpilot]

I intend to test the matter of informing the police under Schedule 7.12.3b which states that a pilot shall not fly from a non-designated port to the IOM, CIs, Eire or NI unless......he gives at least 12 hours notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated .....by handing written notice to the local plod not SB, next time a have a flight that qualifies. I'll post the result of that encounter here!
Good work by all.


Be very careful that local plod doesn't later deny getting the notification. If local plod is a friend, then perhaps he could be in trouble himself for not following some internal police rule. I'm guessing that internally they would have some sort of proceedure for forwarding this info to SB, and if you friend didn't do this he could perhaps be in trouble?

dp

[justinmg]

I heard a story of some people coming back from the CI to some airfield in the UK. They got a call from Solent that they were to divert to Southampton, which they did and were met by SB. SB Carted them off and interviewed them, it turns out that SB had "lost" the GAR. The matter was eventually cleared up and they were sent on their way.
Just out of interest, what are the legalities of an external agency issuing instructions whilst in flight?

Whilst in controlled airspace, can an ATCO direct you to land somewhere, that is not on your route?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yes they can. If they are told by the police, they can issue an order to land somewhere of their choosing. I was told a story about this yesterday by one of the controllers at EDI. He'd been told to order an microlight to land a while ago, as they hadn't given notification of a flight from Ireland.
Supposedly they'd done this a few times and it had been known about by plod each time.