Own up!

[kevmusic]

At 1725 yesterday (Sunday 15/10) who was it in the PA28 skeetering over Strood trying to stay ahead of the wall of inbound clag, racing it into Rochester? I won't say how low I thought you were but shall we say it looks like Rule 5 lost out to VMC! :=

[Kirstey]

Going over Strood into Rochester?

Sounds like they were making an approach to land... no breach of Rule 5

Also Rule 5 Doesn't apply sticking to it compromises the safety of the aeroplane.. no breach of rule 5

I'm guessing they got home OK and no one got killed.. what's the problem?

[robin]

Also Rule 5 Doesn't apply sticking to it compromises the safety of the aeroplane.. no breach of rule 5

Depends on whether the chaps at the Belgrano look at the weather and decide that a prudent pilot wouldn't have tried to fly. They'd happily throw the book at someone taking off knowing that the weather was below the minima for his licence

[shortstripper]

Been there, done that.

I'd hope any other pilot would appreciate that it happens occassionally and would cut me some slack.

SS

[kevmusic]

A bit more context:

He was about 2 miles NW of the field, very low (noticeably <500') over a very built-up area & going full chat. No chance of his being lined-up on long finals or being anywhere near the circuit.

The airfield is well supported locally but there are plenty of nimbies on the council and in the community who want it closed. Accidents or no, let's not give them ammunition.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Sounds like they were making an approach to land... no breach of Rule 5
Remember the Canadian bush pilot's view of low flying:

"Low flying? Nah, we're in the process of landing .....























..... somewhere, eventually."

[Hour Builder]

He was about 2 miles NW of the field, very low (noticeably <500') over a very built-up area & going full chat. No chance of his being lined-up on long finals or being anywhere near the circuit.
At 1725 yesterday (Sunday 15/10) who was it in the PA28 skeetering over Strood trying to stay ahead of the wall of inbound clag, racing it into Rochester?
Am I the only one that finds the way you phase the "inbound clag" and at "full chat" funny. :p

[Pilotdom]

Have you never been caught-out by the weather? He could have been on a 2 mile final,ive seen plenty of those in my time! Cut the guy a bit of slack and get off your high horse!

Local Nimby's you say,are you sure you are not one of them?

[kevmusic]

Local Nimby's you say,are you sure you are not one of them?

Quite sure, thanks :*

[kevmusic]

And he was on NO kind of final.

[Deano777]

If he was as low as you say he was, then was he close enough for you to get his registration? or did you see him in the distance?
And even though I do not expect anyone to admit it but can you seriously hold up your hand and say you have not broken the said rule ever? not even whilst doing PFLs? if not I find this hard to believe

[Maz11]

Well said deano, whoever it was if he was, in your words, "trying to stay ahead of the wall of inbound clag", then let him get on with it.

IMHO its much better he do that than get stuck IMC with no training, (hypothetically) and lose his bearings. We all make mistakes, and whats to say he didn't just get caught out. We've all been there!!

[Cusco]

Analyse your motives Kev:

Just why did you make this post?

Cusco

[EKKL]

Accidents or no, let's not give them ammunition.


.....................so you go and post all about it on a public forum.

Anyone else see the irony :rolleyes:

[kevmusic]

Anymore for any more? :rolleyes:

So it's ironic that I post about an incident on this forum that might annoy nimbies? Like they'd read this forum!

Having analysed my motives - okay, there but for the grace of God etc. but the guy was really low. And I didn't get his letters because I heard him first from inside my house. By the time I'd dashed out he was about a quarter of a mile away and making an angle of about 25-30 degrees to me. Personally I thought he might have seen the situation coming and placed himself more advantageously earlier in the game; but as none of us actually know what his earlier situation was I suppose there's not much use postulating on that, is there? My first thought was that Headcorn is about 20 miles south & to leeward of the incoming murk........

Keep firing away, do.

[BRL]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

You never know mate, thousands of people a day read this forum alone. :)

[kevmusic]

Doh. :{

Free for all, everybody....:}

[sir.pratt]

geez wish i was perfect and that the weather gods always did as i told them to and that i never made a decision that i luckily was able to change without getting into too much danger.

and have you never driven into short finals at 140kts, pulled the power, zoom climbed to Vfe, dumped flap, flared and landed?

apparantley that's heaps of fun.....

[Maz11]

Well said sir.pratt. At the end of the day, a weather forecast is just that,
a FORECAST.

We all get caught out once in a while, even flying a jet, things aren't always what they said they'd be.

This industry is difficult and challenging enough without people trying to make it worse. Who-ever it was lets just hope they made it down ok, and its another one for the 'little book of experiences'.

[SkyHawk-N]

Personally I thought he might have seen the situation coming and placed himself more advantageously earlier in the game; but as none of us actually know what his earlier situation was I suppose there's not much use postulating on that, is there?

kevmusic, have you ever been flying an aircraft and been caught out by the weather before? Serious question.

[Andy_RR]

Whether posting on a forum or flying aircraft, you will make errors of judgement. The important thing is to learn from them.

[kevmusic]

Skyhawk: I was going to post a reply to your question before you asked it. You beat me to it.

<takes deep breath> I made a judgement about a guy coping with a situation that I've never had to cope with myself. I shouldn't have done that and I'm sorry to him and to anyone else who thinks they might have been similarly judged by extension. The main thing is that he got in ok and there was nothing to really upset anyone. It's clear that experience puts a completely different slant on a situation whose bald facts are seen in a two-second window.

I also didn't appreciate how, by raising the issue here, I might have stirred the very hornet's nest I was talking about! Very naive of me. Thanks to EKKL and BRL for pointing that out. :)

I have learned from this. Not a pleasant experience- akin to being 'flogged around the fleet' if you're into your naval history!

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll find a nice little corner to curl up in for a while.......

Kev.

[FullyFlapped]

Indeed, Kevmusic. How dare you suggest that one of our fine piloting community could behave improperly ? After all, whilst we have all (apparently) been caught out by weather which has either been wrongly forecast or which has deteriorated rapidly and unexpectedly, none of us would ever deliberately break Rule 5 for a few seconds, would we ?

Oh no ....

Lighten up, people, and get of his back. Kevmusic might well have got this wrong, but then again, unless the guy in question puts his hands up, none of you have any more accurate information, do you ?

FF (who had to divert himself just a few days ago!) :ok:

[Kirstey]

OK so the "making an approach to land" was tongue in cheek. But I think I'm correct than one is absolved of rule 5 in order to keep the aeroplne safe?


or did I make that up!

I've made the same error. Front moved in several hours early I turned round over Beachy Head and diverted to Lydd.. personaly I'd rather fly 200ft over Strood than divert to Lydd lol

[S-Works]

OK so the "making an approach to loand". But I think I'm correct than one is absolved of rule 5 in order to keep the aeroplne safe?
or did I make that up!
I've made the same error. Front moved in several hours early I turned round over Beachy Head and diverted to Lydd.. personaly I'd rather fly 200ft over Strood than divert to Lydd lol

It is a rather dire place to get stuck you have to admit. Mind you as it is London Ashford Airport it should only be a short taxi ride into the City......

[Kirstey]

£35 to Hastings station Bose!!

[Fuji Abound]

Looking at my plate (and I haven’t been to Rochester for a while) I would have thought Strood was a very likely position to find an aircraft joining for a landing at Rochester, and if it wasn’t for a straight in approach potentially for a number of other joins.

The problem with a thread such as this is there are some all to ready to flame. We don’t know exactly what the pilot was doing, how low he really was, whether he had been caught out by the weather or had set off when he should have known full well it was going to deteriorate. While speculation is interesting - that is all it is. Moreover, there is a lesson in that it is often the NIMBY that will take a similar stance whilst devoid of all the facts.

For what it is worth I was flying at around that time not too far away and the weather did exactly what the forecast said, and was pretty much as forecast all day. It wasn’t a day to be flying VFR without some time to your name, but otherwise it was fine. I am not sure what the wall of inbound clag was, there was a pronounced inversion at 3,000 feet all day with an overcast between 2,000 and 3,000 which moved west on a fast stream of about 30 knots. (Beautiful above as it happened particularly if west bound).

So kevmusic don’t worry you may be perfectly correct that the pilot had got it horribly wrong and was extracting himself from some weather he had no business to be in, equally he may have know exactly what he was doing and was happily visual for a join and well accustomed to a bit of low level flying if required to arrive safely at his destination.

In short we just don’t know! (at least from what you tell us)

[Baboon Boy]

the pilot you speak of is I. Kevmusic, apologies for being so low, but there was a very good reasonfor it, namely that I thought I was suffering from decompression sickness owing to having been scuba diving the day before. Had felt a numb and tingling sensation in my fingers as I was climbing and therefore turned back and came in at the lowest height possible in order to counteract the DCS. TUrned out when I got back that Id only had pins and needles, lol!

[BeeBee]

Did you get yourself checked by a doctor afterwards, just to be on the safe side?

[S-Works]

For future reference.... You can't get a bend at normal VFR altitudes that would appear or worsen as a result of the flight. If you had a bend it would have appeared at the surface. The pressure differential of between 6m and the surface is greater than the differential of surface to 18,000 feet. Diving on air the bend would have occurred in the 10m to surface ascent and would have presented itself within a short while of surfacing. If you had been diving helium the bend would have incurred in water at the point where the greates tissue unloading occured, generally in the 50-30m range.

A bend that "appears" several hours after surfacing is a bend that was already there and the diver was in denial......

[skydriller]

Bose-X,

I know absolutely nothing about this...

...However I recall reading somewhere that there is a recommended minimum time between Diving and Flying, 24hrs or similar? From what you have said above this would appear to be an unnecessary precaution - what is correct?
:confused:
Regards, SD..

[jayteeto]

Why doesn't someone who knows how to do it, post the TAF and actuals from the time of the flight. Then we will know if he got 'caught out' by the weather or he should have stayed down for a beer.............:)

[S-Works]

Recommended intervals are based on recommendations from litagous aware diving certification agencies. It is much easier to make a blanket statement that covers your arse than try and explain the much more subtle rules around DCS. The 24hr rule comes from the assumption that even a diver in denial will admit to having a bend and seek treatment during this time. Having had a number of bends in my time and written numerous, articles, books and course materials on advanced mix gas diving and reabreather diving over the last 20 years I have had the honour to consort with some of the most knowledgable diving physiologists on the planet. Their view is that the 24hr guidlines are perfect as a blanket cover.

I merely pointed out the facts from a physiology standpoint. The choice of observing 24hrs or not is down to the individual. I have flown home both in my aircraft and commercially within hours of deep mixed gas dives. It is a risk assessment based on my knowledge of diving physics and physiology.

[Maxflyer]

Bose may be right, but this looks more interesting;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bends

[Legalapproach]

Kirstey "But I think I'm correct than one is absolved of rule 5 in order to keep the aeroplne safe?


or did I make that up!"

You are quite correct but if you do breach rule 5 in such circumstances you must inform the CAA in writing as soon as is reasonably practicable after the breach.

The reason for this is obviously to ensure that its not used as an excuse after the CAA have started investigating a low flying complaint.

[kevmusic]

Baboon Boy, thanks for your input here and glad that you made it down safely. :) For the sake of the wolves in this thread, there was also a bank of in-rolling low cloud, right? Or was it far enough away not to bother you? Or was it the alcoholic haze from my pre-prandial glass or two?

An instance of irony has been mentioned before in this thread. Well, here's another one: I love watching low-flying aircraft! It's no problem to me.

[BeeBee]

An instance of irony has been mentioned before in this thread. Well, here's another one: I love watching low-flying aircraft! It's no problem to me.

Ditto, and what's even more ironic -- I live not more than a few miles of this incident in a rural area. We're perfectly used to many PFLs being done in the surrounding fields and I find them fascinating to watch :-)

[aw8565]

Having had a number of bends in my time and written numerous, articles, books and course materials on advanced mix gas diving and reabreather diving over the last 20 years I have had the honour to consort with some of the most knowledgable diving physiologists on the planet.


So are you not a very good diver then? Get the impression you often surface like a Polaris missile...? ;)

[mm_flynn]

For future reference.... You can't get a bend at normal VFR altitudes that would appear or worsen as a result of the flight.

Does 'normal VFR' mean the typical 2,400 or below O2 levels (say FL120). It is many years since my diving theory (and unlike you I don't do it for a living) but I seem to remember the guideline being somewhere between 5000 and 8500 ft. Even more from memory, I think it was D diver and OK to 8,000 - so OK on a commercial airliner unless it decompreses.

Appologies for the thread drift

[microlight AV8R]

I recall from my recent 'Human Performance Limitations' exam that the guidance concerning flying after breathing compressed air during diving is that you should not fly within 12 hours of the dive. If you have dived deeper than 30 feet, you should wait 24 hours.

The above is taken from a well known book for Microlight pilots.

Also, same book....

Barotrauma

Within the body itself gases can build up through eating rich or spicy types of food and drinking beer. If the gases so produced cannot escape through the normal channels of mouth or rear then considerable pain and even fainting can result. If you are going to fly high - watch your diet.

However, it doesn't mention the risk of others fainting if the gases are able to escape:eek:

[S-Works]

polaris missile, a favourite diving term! No I have never done that one! My bends of arisen from helium not air, in the early days of gas diving we used to carry out a deepwater switch from helium based mixes at around 60m this had a double wammy effect in that we recieved somewhat of a massive narcotic shock and a massive outpouring of helium as the tissue groups over presurised. This would lead to an in water bend that would present itself around the 30m mark, leaving you with a choice of another 3-4 very uncomfortable hours of decompression whith a known bend or a descent and repetition of stops at the switch depth. These days we use closed circuit rebreathers and maintain the bottom mix throughout the dive relying on the unit to maintain constant PO2. This gives a favourable deco curve, no narcotic jolt and reduced instance of DCS.

Yes normal means the non O2 range allthough realisticaly you should be fine upto much higher. It is not the altitude it is the rapid depressurization problem that causes the problem following micro bubble seeding. The bubbles are always present, it is the catalyst that causes them to group together like an angry mob that we have to be aware off. In a commercial jet a blow out could be enough to invite all the bubbles floating around your body to a big brain based rave. In a little spamcan we do not have this problem and the time to climb is so slow we do not sned out the party invites.

Yes I know what all the well know books say about flying after diving. It is your choice to follow the very good advice. I am just pointing out the advice is based on liability and not on accurate physiology. So for anyone who does not understand the subject I would suggest your are better off following the guides.

[Maxflyer]

So are you not a very good diver then? Get the impression you often surface like a Polaris missile...?
Having seen Boses' workshop and also having a little background knowledge of the man, I would suggest reserving these types of comments until you have met him.
His workshop makes Jacques Cousteau's Calypso look like a PADI beginners rowing boat. Aside from re-breathers assorted cylinders and other diving odds and sods I also noticed a rather meaty looking motorbike.

[Baboon Boy]

Bose-X, what you say is interesting regarding it being impossible to get DCS at VFR heights, i think you might be right and have come up with a fairly reaonable mathematical proof.

Lets say you fly at 5000 ft, the pressure there is about 850 hpa. This is about 150mb than a typical surface pressure (1000 mb say).

Now, any diver will know that when you dive, the pressure is doubled for every 10 depth of water you are in. Ie a pressure increase rate of 1000 mb / 10 m, or 100 mb / m.
Now, say a diver were to dive to say 20m and thenjump in a plane and go up to 5000ft he would be subjecting himself to an decompression of 2000mb in surfacing from the dive, plus an additional 150mb due to the climb, ie a total decompression of 2150mb.

A diver who dived to 21.5 m would experience the same decompression of 2150mb in reaching the surface.
Hence jumping in a plane and then clmbing to 5000ft straight after diving gives you the same chance of getting DCS as if you had dived to a mere 1.5 m greater depth, ie bugger all!
Essentially, the pressure loss in climbing to VFR heights is insignificant compared to the pressure change in surfacing from a decent depth, hence it is my opinion that the risk of getting DCS from VFR flights, or for that matter passenger flights, where the cabin altitude is I believe 6000 ish ft (?) is minimal.

I may well be wrong however, as there are complex phisiological factors associated with DCS that I dont know about but the above argument does make good sense.

[shortstripper]

Slight thread drift ... but "the bends" seem a very interesting subject when it comes to flight as well as diving. How high would you have to climb to unpressurised to possibly suffer in flight?

I worked for on a fishing vessel years ago where the skipper used to be an RAF diver (gunnery ranges out to sea) I mean the old type of frogman too ... like James bond in black rubber as it was in the sixties. He reckoned, whilst not impervious to the bends, that he had a high tolerance and had survived a bad episode with no ill effects when two collegues died :eek: So I guess it can effect people differently?

SS

[S-Works]

It is not the alt that you climb to per se, it is the rate of change that you are subjected to. We have microbubbles in our body at the end of a dive even after having surfaced normally from either a correctly decompressed dive of from a no stop dive. These bubbles are expelled from our body over a period of time following the dive down to a back ground level. There is always a "background" of bubbles present, a doppler easily verifies this.

A rapid rate of change in pressure can cause the microbubbles to seed, essentially they all decide to wander off to a rave and make new friends. Little bubbles that did not cause problems suddenly grow in size and room has to be made for them. This happens in the form of tearing of tissue and nerve, blockage of veins and arteries etc which then presents as clinical DCI.

There is no such thing as an immunity to a bend, it comes down to carefull decompression and luck. The incidence of bends against time in water is pretty low if the basic rules are followed.

As BB points out his physics are correct on pressure changes. There are some complex issues around the subject as well along with some interesting spanners that can appear in the works PFO being one of them. They arguments continue to rage as to how many and what type of tissue compartments represent the human body. Haldanian, Buhlmaan, DSAT, Comex etc. At the end of the day they are just mathematical models.

AS I said before, the agencies recomendations are good, reduced liability etc. We make our own choice based on knowledge and experiance.

[Max Contingency]

Baboon Boy

I see that in the 6 days that you have been a pruner, you have not only admitted to low flying over a built up area but you have also started posts on the following:

Questioning why no one will hire you a SEP for long solo overwater transits in Florida on the back of your 50 odd hours experience.

Asking what equipment you will need to fit to a C152 in order to tow a banner.


Aviation needs characters and I look forward to reading about "the further adventures of Baboon Boy". I just hope for your sake that its not in a CAA publication.

Something about old pilots and bold pilots????

[Baboon Boy]

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots right?

Baboon boy is recently qualified and is full of the joys of flying, and is enthusiastic about wealth of fantastic possibilities that are opened up by his "shiny new licence."
He also recognises his inexperience and the dangers of aviation.

Max contingency, the posts to which you refer result merely from idle musings aimed at satisfying his inquisitive mind, rather than a desire to "bite off more than he can chew" too early.

Aviation does need characters however do not think that the "crazy" nature of such people necessarily implies a haphazzard attitude and a lack of common sense.
Look at Murdoch off the A Team, clinically insane but arguably the greatest and safest pilot in history!

[Darth_Bovine]

Look at Murdoch off the A Team, clinically insane but arguably the greatest and safest pilot in history!

ROFL! :) :D :ok:

[BRL]

Look at Murdoch off the A Team, clinically insane but arguably the greatest and safest pilot in history!

:D :D :D :D

[Glasgow_Flyer]

Noticing that you are from Scotland - I'm just impressed you were able to fly to Stood (or wherever it was!) at whatever height! I only ever get to Loch Lomond....