Cross country time

[MIKECR]

Hopefuly someone might be able to help me here. What is the definition of "cross country time" for here in the UK?? I've had a read of some previous threads but cant seem to find a definitive answer anywhere. I've also tried to wade through Lasors but no joy, perhaps im not loking in the right place. I was assuming it was somewhere in the ANO but I cant see it. Some Google results seem to hint at "a flight conducted 3NM or more from the departure airfield", that seems to be the best answer I can get. Anyone care to help me out here?? Or give me a pointer where to look??
Thanks
(hard hat on!!):ouch:

[Mariner9]

AFAIK, no legal requirement to log X-C time in the UK, which is why (taking your word for it - haven't checked :ok: ) its not in the ANO.

Personally, I consider a X country flight to be one that departs from and arrives at different airfields.

[Zulu Alpha]

I asked this question some time ago.
In the UK cross country is whenever you go outside a 3nm radius, even if you land back at the same place.
In the US its a flight of over 50nm. This is important if you want to keep your logbook for US use ie renting over there.

I therefore log cross country as anything over 50nm.

[MIKECR]

Thanks for the replies guys. Im looking to have a go at the IR soon but I notice one of the pre-entry requirements is that you must have logged a minimum of 50 hours P1 cross country time. I have roughly 200 hours total but most of it is glider towing time, hence I was wondering what the exact definition of cross country was.

[High Wing Drifter]

The ANO (CAP 393) defines cross country a mentioned above (3 nm from aerodrom of departure). It is in Schedule 8, Part B.

[MIKECR]

Thanks,

Found it finally, tucked away at the bottom of page 236 of the ANO pdf document!

[IO540]

Is there any UK/JAA license or a rating that needs a "cross country" time?

The FAA PPL, IR and CPL all need it.

I think that is the real answer to the question: why are you logging time? Usually one is logging time for a specific objective, and one has to make sure it is right for that objective.

That's why it can be important to get the instructor to sign the logbook entry. In years to come you may be glad you did that 2 hour x/c dual VFR flight, or whatever, but the instructor will be long gone (he's a first orificer on a 737 probably) and without the signature the flight will be unverifiable.

That said, I have never had unsigned entries queried; under FAA, the instructor you fly with before the test in question willmake sure you can actually do the stuff.

In the absence of a specific other requirement, I would recommend everybody making sure they have FAA compatible logbook entries :) That's where the future lies.

[High Wing Drifter]

IO540,

Both the JAA CPL and IR have cross country requirements and the application forms for the same expect you to supply the cross country numbers. I just provided my P1 time less the flights I spent in the circuit.

[Hour Builder]

Is there any UK/JAA license or a rating that needs a "cross country" time?

err of course

PPL (A) - 5 hours PIC XC
CPL (A) - 20 hours PIC XC
IR (A) - 50 hours PIC XC
ATPL (A) - 200 hours (not sure if this is PIC or a mix of PIC/US and PIC and/or dual)

in any case, yes all licences require a XC time minima, as does the IR

HB

[IO540]

OK, it seems to me that somebody logging x/c time with flights just long enough for JAA requirements might live to regret it later.

[slim_slag]

A cross country in FAA speak is landing at any airport other than the point of departure. No minimum distance is specified.

However, you need to have logged certain amounts of cross country time as a requirement for testing for ratings. The FARs require these cross countrys to be a minimum of 50nm straight line. In practice, this means you only log as cross country those flights which are over 50nm straight line between airports of arrival and departure. Once you have collected all your ratings you don't even need to do that (in fact you don't need to once you have logged the required time anyway)

For those of you who collect strange exceptions, there is an exception for military pilots who can take a load of bombs half way around the world, release them and go back to the airport of departure without landing elsewhere in between. They can log that as cross country if they wish.

[englishal]

I must have about 400 hours more cross country time than I originally thought :)

(damn, 97 seconds to go).......

[IO540]

One needs more than 50nm for some things - the FAA CPL needs 2 hours or more, day and another 2hr one at night. The 2nd one can be a bit of a logistical job in the UK, involving a sure stay in a hotel...

[S-Works]

i dot even have space in my log book to log cross country time. Never had a question raised about it. When I applied for the CPL IR stuf I just wrote 1500hrs + in the boxes and left it at that.

No one in FAA land has everu questioned it either. Mind you week after next i will probably get it pulled aprt while in Florida for opening my big mouth......

300 seconds to go....... ho hum.

[englishal]

No one in FAA land has everu questioned it either.
If you ever do a licence or rating in the USA (maybe you have?) it is the examiners job to check your logbook and sign the 8710 form stating what you have put on there is correct. If you have 1500+ of X/C time, a cursory glance at the logbook by the examiner would verify this and I'm sure he'd be happy with it without taking too much interest in it.

The 8710 form is useful if you ever loose your logbook, the last submitted form can be used as 100% evidence of your flight time.

[S-Works]

If you ever do a licence or rating in the USA (maybe you have?) it is the examiners job to check your logbook and sign the 8710 form stating what you have put on there is correct. If you have 1500+ of X/C time, a cursory glance at the logbook by the examiner would verify this and I'm sure he'd be happy with it without taking too much interest in it.
The 8710 form is useful if you ever loose your logbook, the last submitted form can be used as 100% evidence of your flight time.

That explains why no problems.

300 seconds to go.....

[IO540]

I think if one turns up with 1500hrs of x/c time on a logbook, nobody is going to bother to add it up :)

The problem is with unusual requirements like 2hr VFR dual x/c flights - I have 700hrs and a lot of ~ 700nm legs under both VFR and IFR but have never flown 2hrs VFR with an instructor, from one place to a different place > 50nm away. And I don't think this is unusual in UK PPL training.

A night version of the above is much more unusual still.

Somebody reading this thread might think we are all being picky for no apparent reason, but I would have never thought about this stuff when I started. If I had known that I would later be doing the FAA PPL. FAA IR, FAA CPL, it would have been easy for me to arrange with the instructor to do the "right" flights.

[AdamFrisch]

Sorry to dredge up this old thread, but it pertains closely to my question.

For the purpose of an initial rating or qualification in FAA land, a xcountry flights first leg must be over 50nm. My understanding is that after you've got your license, then any landing away from your departing airport is considered a xcountry.

Now my question.

For an instrument rating qualification you need 50hrs of xcountry as PIC in FAA-land. Does that have to be the 50nm flavour, or just regular vanilla ones? Reason I'm asking is that I meet those qualifications if I can log my european xcountries, but not if they have to be of the 50nm variety. I have had cursory glance at FAR/AIM's, but could not find an answer.

[mcgoo]

They have to be the 50nm ones.

[Whopity]

The ANO (CAP 393) defines cross country a mentioned above (3 nm from aerodrom of departure). It is in Schedule 8, Part B.Then try placing this in the correct context5. For the purposes of this Section—
“Cross-country flight” means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than three nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure. and This Section (ANO Schedule 7 PART B Ratings and qualifications SECTION 1) is all about the privileges of instructors Restrictions - restricted privileges
(3) The privileges are restricted to carrying out under the supervision of the holder of a flight instructor rating approved for this purpose—
(a) flight instruction for the issue of the Private Pilot Licence or those parts of integrated courses at Private Pilot Licence level and type ratings for single engine aeroplanes, excluding approval of first solo flights by day or by night and first solo cross-country flights by day or by night Thus, this definition is only relevant to defining cross country for the purpose of the "Restriction" in a FI rating, and has nothing to do with defining cross country flight requirements for the purpose of qualifying for licence issue.
EASA Part FCL defines Cross Country as:Cross-Country.
A flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre –planned route using standard navigation procedures.

[BillieBob]

Actually, you don't have to wait for EASA. That same definition of cross-country quoted by Whopity appears in JAR-FCL at Amendment 7. Mind you, Amendment 7 was only issued 4 years ago and, to be fair, we are talking about the UK CAA.

[englishal]

Regarding the FAA only (which is what the poster appears to be talking about) - Cross Country is ONLY flight > 50nm in a straight line from airport of departure to airport of destination.

So for the FAA IR, no, any flight of < 50nm which you have classed as "euro x/c" (as it doesn't apply in FAA land) does not count towards the 50 hrs x/c PIC.

[Prophead]

Doesn't this also depend on whether the school is Part 141 or Part 61? I thought that the 50 hours XC for the FAA/IR was only for part 61. As the schools that are SEVIS approved are Part 141 then for someone from the UK it should not matter.

[englishal]

ONLY if you have trained under part 141 all the way up to the IR.

141 was designed for fast track pilots going from zero to say CPL/IR/ ATP, like an integrated course, and required stages checks before the student can progress to the next training phase.

If you are training adhoc then you are not training pt 141. A 141 school can of course train you under pt 61 too.

(which is where this whole Visa misunderstanding comes in - Under an integrated 141 course of course you need a visa, but pt 61 schools can't issue a visa because if the course is adhoc and under 16 (18?) hours per week, no visa is required. I have seen a letter to this fact from US INS to one student. Most just issue a visa anyway as US INS don't really understand the system they are policing).

[CISTRS]

I made it a rule to land where my car was parked. Local flying (maybe some aeros) or there and back for a breakfast fly-in.

Power flying with a PPL in UK is/was not a reliable form of transport, but still a lot of fun.

It takes all sorts.

My longest flight durations and distances were in gliders.

[Evan21]

Where did you do your towing? i tried to get in touch with all local clubs but none of them want to know unless your a glider pilot with them. Ive done gliding in the past but am looking to hour build.....same as you did i imagine. any advice?