Better T&C? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

ORAC

2nd Oct 2006, 14:32

The PM's spokesman..... added Britain was "around the top of the table" in surveys from 2002 and 2005 into the pay and conditions of forces in Nato and Commonwealth countries. Throughout their careers, all service personnel receive a 13% allowance on top of their basic salaries, he added......

Well it´s good to see that it will be a fair and impartial review......:hmm:

South Bound

2nd Oct 2006, 14:42

I am sorry to correct them, but I receive no allowance on top of my basic salary, my basic salary includes an X-factor amount of 13% that recognises that what I do is just a little different to what civvies do.

I am starting to think that the 13% is not enough...

Melchett01

2nd Oct 2006, 17:36

Well this should be interesting, although if they are counting the X-Factor as an additional allowance, then it shows just how poor our basic pay is for what we actually do and the levels of responsibility we are given i.e. for lives rather than the company accounts. I'm sure they will point out that we have a super all singing all dancing pension scheme that we don't physically contribute to; whilst the old scheme is good, I suspect they would negelect to mention that our pay is abated by around 7% in order to fund it.

As for the MOD denying that members of the armed forces are paid less than the minimum wage (£5.35/hr), do the sums yourself and work it out. We are expected to be on call to go anywhere and do anything 365/24/7: take you annual salary and see what that works out to per hour ...... based on being on call 24/7, I believe you have to get the mid Sqn Ldr bracket before you make £5.35/hr.

If this review is going to be full and fair, I have a question that I would like them to answer as fully and fairly as possible: why do the government keep trotting out the old line that we have the best armed forces in the world, but only have one of the best renumeration policies? Surely if we are the best, they should prove it by giving us the best renumeration package?

But then again, instead of a full and fair review, I'll just settle for it being less of a white wash than the Hutton and Butler reports. Or am I being overly optimistic?

L1A2 discharged

2nd Oct 2006, 20:02

..... Or am I being overly optimistic?

Of course you are.

No government, especially this inept bunch of tw@ts would ever want a free and open review of anything, especially their own gold plated, platinum lined pensions.

Politicians :mad:

Don't vote and you get what you don't want, vote and a small % of the population will at least influence the result.

vecvechookattack

2nd Oct 2006, 22:03

Thats true. Ive just worked out Im on £7.16 an hour.....bloody appalling

LunchMonitor

2nd Oct 2006, 22:44

As for the MOD denying that members of the armed forces are paid less than the minimum wage (£5.35/hr), do the sums yourself and work it out. We are expected to be on call to go anywhere and do anything 365/24/7: take you annual salary and see what that works out to per hour ...... based on being on call 24/7, I believe you have to get the mid Sqn Ldr bracket before you make £5.35/hr.

Looking at the payscales april 2006 and assuming an 80 hour week whilst on dets. (Obviously this will increase during periods of intense ops). Any higher pay band private soldier (or equivalent) with less than 6 years service will be on less than the 5.35 minimum wage.

ORAC

3rd Oct 2006, 05:20

Believe it if you will. If true, it proves, once again, that the claims that the review is independent is a farce. if false, and spin, it will allow them to claim they had the best of intentions but the final decision was out of their hands.

And that´s before Gordon and the treasury get into the act....

Soldiers in warzones to be freed from paying income tax (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-2385487,00.html)

tonkatechie

3rd Oct 2006, 11:40

Thats true. Ive just worked out Im on £7.16 an hour.....bloody appalling
I'm only on £3.30 - can i wash your car to help pay the mortgage?:hmm:

Statty

3rd Oct 2006, 11:51

I'm only on £3.30 - can i wash your car to help pay the mortgage?:hmm:

....depends if its a MT wagon - as we all know the driver cleans it. Now where is the link to that 330 page behemoth<img>

Kitbag

3rd Oct 2006, 12:05

Better T & C

Believe it when it happens, this will never get past the Treasury and I'm afraid the media will have forgotten all about it by the end of the week. Anybody know a tame MP to push the issue now that Parliament is (almost) back from their well deserved summer break? :hmm:

Melchett01

3rd Oct 2006, 12:11

Well this will be interesting - I wait with baited breath to see which way they have jumped (or as usual fall flat on their fat faces)

At the risk of sounding gash, I will be hoping for tax free pay for those on ops as opposed to the across the board large pay rises for all junior ranks. To me, the later option has 2 huge flaws which significantly outweigh the implications of differentiation of pay which the high paid help seem to be concerned about. Firstly, what about those that do not fall into that bracket of 'junior ranks' but spend lots of time away on ops? Secondly, it rewards failure to perform; whilst there are those by virtue of their jobs that do not go away, there are too many that are too unfit, too incompetent or just plain lazy to go away. Why should they get the same benefits as those that are spending an increasing amount of time away from home?

You may not like the idea of differentiating between those on the front line and those spending every night at home in the pub, (their biggest risk being from a case of mild indegestion from their afternoon of troughing doughnuts), but in a time of an ever increasing operational tempo it is the only right thing to do.

Kitbag

3rd Oct 2006, 12:20

I agree wholeheartedly with Melchett 01 on this point, the folks at the very pointy end should be getting the tax break, but they also need the improvements in kit and support across the board, and that will hurt the budget.
If the tax break should happen then the dear old gov't will say 'we have done all we can' and things on the ground won't actually get any better. As for the issue of Selly Oak being open to all and sundry with a grudge against uniforms :ugh:

Out of curiosity, can anyone give a sound, reasoned argument against the tax break for in-theatre personnel only?

Tourist

3rd Oct 2006, 12:24

Forget in theatre, just go for outside of the UK:ugh:

Mr-AEO

3rd Oct 2006, 12:39

Oh its not all bad. Under JPA don't you get paid an extra day per year?

366 days per year/12 being your monthly pay.

Please correct me if that's wrong, i've yet to enjoy the wonder that is JPA but soon will be!:eek:

I've worked out that I got paid more hourly when I delivered free newspapers as a kid than I do now 19 years on:{ and that doesn't allow for inflation!

mbga9pgf

3rd Oct 2006, 15:54

Times article (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2385487,00.html)

Cameron Already had my vote, I just hope this is not a false promise.

Mr Cameron wrote in The Sun: “We’re asking a lot of our servicemen and women. But are we doing enough for them and their families? Our troops are being sent on more and more missions, in more and more distant lands — but they still have to pay income tax while on operations. The Government say this is all fair. I say it isn’t.

So when we put together our Forces manifesto, we’re going to look at ways to sort these problems out.”

He also commented on the fact that Rapists, Murderers and Paedos get twice as long on the phone to their loved ones as we do. There is noo Labour Social Justice for you.

TheInquisitor

3rd Oct 2006, 23:42

I'll believe this when I see it. I'm betting the term "cost neutral" is going to be toted somewhere along the line - MQ charges seem to be a recent favourite for the ever-grabbing "left hand" - they've already risen almost 30% in the last 3 years.

So how high up the chain does "lower ranks" refer to - again, being a betting man, I'd put money on it NOT applying to JOs - so no tax relief for commisioned aircrew on det, despite doing exactly the same amount of work in exactly the same conditions as our back-enders. Another to append to the list of "push" factors...

I simply cannot, no matter how hard I try, make myself believe that this is as good a piece of news as is being toted. Cynical?

Kitbag

4th Oct 2006, 06:56

So how high up the chain does "lower ranks" refer to - again, being a betting man, I'd put money on it NOT applying to JOs - so no tax relief for commisioned aircrew on det, despite doing exactly the same amount of work in exactly the same conditions as our back-enders. Another to append to the list of "push" factors...

Wouldn't be a problem if it was applied to ALL personnel deployed on 'Op XXXX'.

Anyway (bit of thread creep) hasn't the standard of MQs improved by 30% in the last 3 years, justifying the increased rent?

South Bound

4th Oct 2006, 07:30

Kitbag

please tell me you are trying to be funny about the improvement in SFA....

Collapsar

4th Oct 2006, 07:34

Anyway (bit of thread creep) hasn't the standard of MQs improved by 30% in the last 3 years, justifying the increased rent?
Continuing the thread creep, my quarter has just been downgraded from grade 2 to grade 4. Call that an improvement if you like but at least my rent has been reduced.
Returning to the thread:
Without wishing to sound like a 70's Trade Unionist, what about our differentials?. Depending upon the definition of "lower ranks", a pay rise for "lower ranks" has the potential to erode differentials even further than they already have been, with the concomitant disincentive to work towards promotion.
My favoured option, FWIW, is the tax break for those on Ops. This would have the benefit of targetting the benefit at those incurring the danger/inconvenience but would inevitably lead to a huge influx into Opearational theatres, of very senior visitors wanting to qualify. (Believe me, it happens with the US Forces.)

South Bound

4th Oct 2006, 08:38

Agreed, tax breaks far preferable to a targetted pay rise if they are not to cause even greater frustration among those not getting anything. Might also have the benefit of getting some of the LMFs back out to theatre to ease the workload a bit on the rest of us.

TheInquisitor

4th Oct 2006, 17:15

Tax breaks woul be a fantastic (and long overdue) idea, but inevitably the treasury will find a way to make it as difficult as possible. I can't see any other way of it being paid than by having to 'claim' it back at the end of the tax year - on a stupidly complicated series of forms, doubtless requiring multiple countersignatures - and a wait of months until it is paid.

ZH875

4th Oct 2006, 17:18

Shadwell the old

4th Oct 2006, 18:51

Looks like my bookkeeping and personal tax business could be getting a boost. I will be filling in all those complicated forms to claim back the tax for deployed servicemen!

Eureka! I have found something positive to think of this bunch of government tawts, and something to thank Tony Bliar for doing.

Sorry got carried away. Kev the Nurse is late with my medication.

Is that rain all down my trouser leg:confused:

Twonston Pickle

5th Oct 2006, 12:06

I think the tax break should be extended to all on postings overseas; the US have applied this rule for years and we seem to follow them in everything else!

k1rb5

5th Oct 2006, 14:42

I think the tax break should be extended to all on postings overseas; the US have applied this rule for years and we seem to follow them in everything else!
I'm pretty sure they only get the tax break when they go into 'hot zones'. I think our cricket-playing cousins are the same.
If we do follow suit it's long overdue.

Melchett01

6th Oct 2006, 11:43

Well, apparently the MOD made an announcement yesterday.

All I have seen is improved welfare package for those injured that mirrors the OWP given to those in theatre. Whilst no doubt a welcome move for those unfortunate enough to have had to put up with this govt and the MOD's cack-handed approach to dealing with wounded members of the Armed Forces, I have to ask: Is that it? What about the rest of us?

Or is this going to be the usual re-run of an episode of Are you being served?, where a senior officer type comes along, gives us a pat on the head, tells us we're all doing very well and that's all we get :uhoh:

Because I'm sure that will improve morale no end.

Mmmmnice

7th Oct 2006, 15:35

They've just mentioned 'pay and care package' on the box again - along with TB trying to look sincere! The press could make up for the spate of almost completely fictional 'stan stories by keeping the more pay/no tax story going. It may also be complete fiction but like all good crewroom rumours it may, by weight of re-telling, become fact?

EODFelix

7th Oct 2006, 20:48

How long until those at the treasury decide to abate the X factor element for excess hours and difficult conditions replacing it with an allowance for those deployed on operations only. Think of the attractions to Gordon - take away from @ 190,000 and distribute (some) to @15,000. Beware of politicians bearing gifts.

ORAC

8th Oct 2006, 07:22

The Observer: UK army rejects war zone 'danger money' (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1890480,00.html)

BEagle

8th Oct 2006, 09:13

I hear a rumour that some of the dear old FunBuses are sitting around out of hours waiting for a slot in the servicing programme. Because there aren't enough of them, they've been working too hard, there aren't enough crews to fly them or gingerbeers to maintain them...

Just a rumour of course. Probably totally false..

And how many have already been scrapped to find enough bits to keep the others going?

Wasn't pre-PFI FSTA originally supposed to have been here in 2004.....??

mbga9pgf

8th Oct 2006, 09:13

The Observer: UK army rejects war zone 'danger money' (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1890480,00.html)

'The issue we have been looking at is how do we do something that is fair and equitable which met the army's concerns that we were not creating a two-tier army, that if you are in barracks or in backroom logistics in the UK you are somehow different,' said a Whitehall source.

1) Dont hear any mention about RAF and RN in the article. :confused:

2) If you are in a barracks or a backroom at the moment, I daresay that you will fully support our frontline guys getting extra cash. And especially if you are LMF and it will give you a kick up your arse to get back onto the front line.

Looks as if they are worming their way out of this already :mad: :mad: :mad: