TSA's Alien Flight Training/Citizenship Validation Rule [Archive]

View Full Version : TSA's Alien Flight Training/Citizenship Validation Rule

englishal

29th Sep 2006, 19:16

IO540

29th Sep 2006, 20:54

So it appears that the Commercial Pilot Certificate is not included in that lot

Yes, this has been the case since TSA started.

The Visa situation is something else; there is no clear guidance.

slim_slag

30th Sep 2006, 07:58

So it appears that the Commercial Pilot Certificate is not included in that lot. This is interesting because a JAA PPL holder with a reciprocal FAA private, could flight train and sit the Commercial SE and gain the FAA CPL/SE certificate without having to go through the validation process. This would leave them with a standalone FAA certificate, no longer based upon their JAA licence.If you didn't have an FAA-IR it would have crippling restrictions which made it not much better than a PP-ASEL, but it looks like it is possible.Therefore if training for the Commercial Certificate is not classified as "Flight Training" by the TSA, then presumably no visa is required?If you look at US law then no visa is required for any training if you do less than 18 hours per week, but that is an academic answer.

englishal

30th Sep 2006, 09:42

If you look at US law then no visa is required for any training if you do less than 18 hours per week, but that is an academic answer.
Quite true. But since the TSA don't classify the CPL as "Flight training" then you'd have a very good leg to stand on if heading out to the USA for the CPL without a visa.....May be beneficial to someone who wants to transfer to the N reg or someone who wants to let the JAA licence lapse for whatever reason.

Of course as you say without an IR or ME rating the CPL isn't worth a whole lot, but you could go all the way to CFI with no visa / tsa requirement.

Interests me as I already have the ME and IR, I always wanted to add the CFI/II/MEI ratings but could never be bothered to get visa's (why break a habit of a lifetime ;))

IO540

30th Sep 2006, 11:35

As far as I can tell, an FAA CPL (with or without an IR) is close to worthless in Europe.

Outside some AOC context (which needs UK Govt permission anyway) the only thing I can think of is that you can be a paid company pilot.

However, a CPL can be worth doing for other reasons:

One is to get possible future grandfather rights. It's clear that a "professional" license is held in a higher esteem around the world. For example, look at the CAA/JAA concession for bypassing the Class 1 medical initial limits and going straight to the renewal limits - but only if you hold a CPL or ATPL. What does a CPL or ATPL got to do with your medical condition?? Nothing. But this concession alone can be worth doing a CPL, for some pilots.

Another reason is to do with who is going to get shafted on the N-reg kicking-out front. EASA is taking over from JAA on flight crew licensing. They also want to kick out N-reg planes from Europe (that's if the DfT doesn't beat them to it, in the UK). IMHO they cannot do this by force without repercussions in the form of a loss of Airbus sales in the USA. With a bit of clever lobbying and publicity in the right places in the US media, how many Americans would touch an Airbus, given 1) it's French (remember Gulf War II?) and 2) the Europeans are seen to be treating U.S. aircraft with such contempt on their own soil. EASA is Airbus; the two are totally wrapped up together. So EASA will have to do this by more-or-less embracing FAA licenses/ratings and FAA certification. Remove those two factors and very few people will bother with N. Now, this is going to be really hard to swallow for the "Europe is superior" majority crowd in the European CAAs, the Germans perhaps more than most. So somebody's privileges are sure to get shafted in the process, and who will that be? This business is all about IFR flight (EASA is going for some de-regulation and unification of VFR anyway) and one possibility is that FAA PPL/IR pilots will end up with somehow limited privileges. This won't bother most bizjet/corporate ops (who are the really powerful people in this game, politically) since their pilots tend to be CPL/ATPL anyway. It would make a good piece of meat to throw to the dogs in the various committees.

Just a few thoughts; might be all rubbish, but then I wonder what really will happen. Got to keep 1 step ahead in this game.

IO540

30th Sep 2006, 16:47

This may be a good place to start

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1268.html

If you are going to the U.S. primarily for tourism, but want to take a short course of study of less than 18 hours per week, you may be able to do so on a visitor visa

EvilKitty

30th Sep 2006, 16:50

I may be completely wrong and I will try to find this reference. Likewise if anybody has a reference that specifically states the less than 18 hour limit applies to training for a cert/rating then please post it - - as opposed to purely academic learning.

A fully academic course of study at an accredited US college or university requires a F-1 visa. The M-1 visa is needed for either non-academic or vocational study. The 18 hour a week limit applies to both the F-1 and M-1 visas.

From the US Department of State website: "If you are going to the U.S. primarily for tourism, but want to take a short course of study of less than 18 hours per week, you may be able to do so on a visitor visa. You should inquire at the appropriate U.S. Embassy or Consulate."

The important bits here are "primarily for tourism" and the word "may". So if you are going to the US in order to learn to fly then you will need a visa as the primary purpose of your trip is not tourism. Also some courses of study may require a visa even is less than 18 hours a week are required.

More information at: http://educationusa.state.gov/usvisa.htm and http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1268.html

EvilKitty

1st Oct 2006, 00:04

Which leaves us the other case - of someone who is taking an extended vacation in the USA and decides to learn to fly whilst there. The primary purpose of their visit is tourism, and they could easily fall under the 18 hour limit. This is almostthe situation I'm in, as I'm considering an extended vacation there next year, and due to current time constraints may complete my PPL whilst there. I guess I should go speak to the Embassy...

IO540

1st Oct 2006, 07:20

Sure you can go to the USA on a holiday; anybody can. Obviously if you advertise to the immigration official that you plan to set foot within 1nm of a plane then he/she will go berserk and will be completely uninterested in your explanation about "18hrs", so this is a no-no.

The real question is whether the school will do the training without seeing the M-1 and the TSA authorisation. In my limited experience of dealing with several schools out there, none of them have ever read the regulations properly, if at all, and trying to explain that e.g. you don't need TSA for a CPL falls on deaf ears. They have enough domestic business and can't be bothered to read reams of this stuff.

Perhaps those schools in Florida which are geared up for a lot of foreign business are different.

slim_slag

1st Oct 2006, 08:21

If you look at US law then no visa is required for any training if you do less than 18 hours per week, but that is an academic answer.Then a bunch of people quoted web sites giving interpretations, many of which say 'may', to justify why a visa is required to do a CPL/PPL.

So where is the law which says you need a visa to do a PPL if that course of study is less than 18 hours per week. I'd even say that as a PPL is mainly non classroom work, the cut off is 21 hours per week.

Non-resident aliens do need a B visa to visit the US for pleasure. Some people are permiited a waivers to this requirement. Where is the law which says you need an M visa to get a PPL?

As I said it's academic as they can deny you entry for any reason, but you know how these threads go :)

IO540

1st Oct 2006, 09:08

An interesting angle on this, relevant to the 18hrs figure, is whether ground school is included in the "course of study". I think it is.

It is feasible (not by much though) for a PPL or an IR to exceed 18hrs/week especially if ground school is included. On a PPL or an IR you are likely to fly twice a day, 6 days a week, which is 12hrs/week, but obviously one could go past that if not feeling too tired and there is no thing else to do in the area.

But most of the other "courses" in flying aren't going to get past 18hrs/week, especially if (as is most strongly advisable) you sit the ground exams before going to the USA.

As I say above, it is down to the school in the end.

dartagnan

1st Oct 2006, 19:28

Here is an interesting ditty:

TSA has provided clarification on the definition of "flight training" for aircraft with an MTOW of 12,500 pounds or less; it now only includes flight training for a recreational pilot, sport pilot, or private pilot certificate; multiengine rating (at any level); or instrument rating.

and add initial type rating...

I have lost lot of money and time, after being denied by the TSA for a type rating in the USA.
And I am not the first one or the last one.
They have no visa for type ratings and the tourist visa is not authorized by the DHS.
Legally all non US citizen going to the USA (for a t/r)are simply illegal aliens and can face deportation.

if you go to the USA with a visa waiver, and you say you are going to learn how to fly an Airbus, Boeing,...and you don't need a visa because you heared you don't need one... they will lock you for 2 weeks before your deportation.

So be very very careful with what your TRTO tells you. Specially when they say you do not need a visa, or just come with a tourist visa because this is an upgrade training...(that's all BS).

If you have read on some websites that you "may" obtain flight training if your first intention is to visit the USA under a toursit visa, again, this is BS and you risk deportation (and jail time).

Recently a TRTO sent me an old form telling the INS accepts the tourist visa for type rating(BS again). This form was dated of 2001 by the INS. The INS doesn't exist any more, and some TRTO continues to "lie" to us to come with a visa waiver. I was too stupid, and I started to pay for the application, finger prints,...(non refundable)

what can happen to you? if you are lucky and you did a t/ rating or a privat license in the USA...they can at anytime take your license away from you and ban you from the USA for 10 years.

As you have obtained the license without proper visa (illegaly) , this can go against you in the futur.Even if you have obtained TSA clearance, you still have to obtain a visa (M1-J1-F1) that can not exist for a training (in my case they have no visa for type rating on eavy aircraft, and the tourist visa B1-B2 is not valid).

I will think twice before spending 20-30'000$ in a flight training or a type rating in the USA.

Canada is excellent . They have excellent level, good and cheap planes, and you will learn to fly in hard conditions during winter time...and if you don't like the USA, like 99.99% of people in this world, spend your money somewhere else.

mcgoo

1st Oct 2006, 20:06

I would blame the school who gave you duff advice rather than the country, I'm in the .01 who loves the US then, everytime i've been for flight training i've had no problems, I had an M-1 visa everytime though and got TSA clearance before paying for the course.

dartagnan

1st Oct 2006, 20:24

I liked to fly and be trained in the USA too, but they went to far...it is all based on different governmental interpretations.

the TSA say you need to contact the DHS, then the DHS says you need to ask the TSA, and the TSA will send you back to the DHS(this happened to me),..ad the "opinion" of the FBI, CIA, FAA and at the end you have nothing and you risk to be ban and lose everything.

I give you another stupid exemple of how it works in this "wonderful" country of freedom.
A flight instructor can not give flying lessons to a 0 hour pilot except for discovery flight.

but he can receive 40 hours of discovery flight, and know how to fly an aircraft.
So even if a guy can not receive his TSA clearance, he can still learn how to fly a plane through some discovery flights....

there is no requirement for discovery flights,and it can be on a cessna 150 or a B747..and this is legal.

mcgoo

1st Oct 2006, 20:31

What reason did the TSA give for the denial or didn't they give one?

IO540

1st Oct 2006, 22:26

Just a few points to note.

While one can TSA approval for practically every flying school in the USA, and even for individual (freelance) FAA instructors (in the USA and elsewhere), getting a visa drastically narrows down the school options, because to get a visa you need an I-20 and to get that the school needs to be in SEVIS and to get into SEVIS the school has to be FAA Part 141. And many or most U.S. schools are Part 61 only, so you can't get a visa to train there even if wanted to...

I also don't see how having received non-visa training could be a future problem if you did not violate any U.S. law at the time. Notwithstanding many personal opinions here and elsewhere to the contrary, the law on visas seems to be clear enough.

It's also no good asking the TSA for visa guidance; their reply is a straight handwashing exercise.

Keef

2nd Oct 2006, 00:08

The best advice is the simplest: forget the "apparent" loopholes. The immigration inspector will send you straight back home, with no arguments, if you mention flying training and you don't have a visa and TSA paperwork.

You could lose a lot of money by trying to be "clever". Just jump through the hoops - it's not that bad - pay your TSA fee, go for your interview at the Embassy, and then enjoy your training.

slim_slag

2nd Oct 2006, 07:48

A strange use of the term "loophole".

If there was a loophole it was that non-USA students were being trained without scrutiny by the law enforcement agencies. In the early days after 9/11 they didn't have the TSA in place, so they paniced and forced people to get M visas (even though there was no law requiring this).

Now they have the TSA security checking flight students, that 'loophole' (in another very loose definition) has been closed - yet people still say you need an M visa.

People should question authority, not bow down to them.

So what happens if you turn up at a US border with an M1 visa and you get an immigration official who knows the law. He knows that an M1 visa is required for a 'course of study' and knows the definition of that is 18 or 21 hours a week depending on whether mainly classroom based. You describe a 4 week PPL course which the regulations say is a total of 40 hours flight time + 20 hours of groundschool. 60/4 = 15 hours per week, so it's not a 'course of study'. Can the immigration officer turn you away for having a visa which is inappropriate for your intended purpose of visit?

englishal

2nd Oct 2006, 14:02

nobody on this thread has actually stated that they came to the US and did a course that lead to a cert/license without a visa
Ehem...me :O

PPL (JAR)
IR
ME PVT
CPL SE
CPL ME

IR and onwards is post 911.....

englishal

3rd Oct 2006, 10:55

... to ensure that paperwork is now in order...
Nah.....They were done pre-TSA. I did hold a visa at the time, just not an M1.

Anyway, if the worst comes to the worst, I'll just get my green card ;)

Mitra

8th Oct 2006, 07:11

Mitra

11th Oct 2006, 07:35

Thanks for answering, sounds very reasonable...

I'm guessing that if you have an H1-B, that you are being sponsored by your employer for a few years as you would be considered to be in a 'specialised category for employment' i.e. in your specific field of work

........

........

OVC002

11th Oct 2006, 19:36

There are always those who interpret the regs in the most proscriptive manner.

Let's examine the case of an individual wishing to enter the US for a two day course in, for arguments sake, Origami.

Try asking your local US Embassy if you are eligible for an M1 visa to follow a course of training in "Origami" that, in its entirety, will total less than 12 hours.

I know what the answer is by the way.

If the requirements are as restrictive as some here would have us believe, then it would be impossible for a NRA to gain the ME rating in the USA. On the one hand an M1 would be essential, but on the other hand the applicant would be ineligible.

It is in the interest of part 141 schools to perpetuate the idea that M1 is an absolute requirement.

So they do.

fly_sd

12th Oct 2006, 05:07

I'm on H1 visa and want to start flight training. Any suggestions ?
Can it have negative effect on my green card processing ?
Following note from TSA looks kinda scary....:
> The TSA website FAQ - states in no uncertain terms:
> Taking flight training without an appropriate visa is a violation of your immigration
> status and could result in your arrest and removal from the United States; therefore, it
> is important that you have a visa that permits you to take flight training in the United.
Best Regards,
-- DC

You are allowed to study while on an H1-B without a special visa and so I would imagine flight training would also be considered a course of study. In fact if you did not know already you are entitled to take courses at the local colleges at the local rate for residents if you have lived in the state of CA for at least one year. You will of course have to get the TSA thing done just like green card holders have to. One interesting thing I found out is that regarding frnger printing - you can have the local police do your fingerprints for much cheaper than the flight schools ($6 vs $75 here at Poway police) but it would be a bit more long winded as the TSA would have to send the FP cards to you and then you have to get the FPs done yourself.

421C

12th Oct 2006, 07:07

this is a tough question.

As far as I see it there are 6 factors

1. TSA Category - Is is Cat 3 or higher training?
2. School type - Is it a Part 141 school?
3. Duration - Are you there for a longer period (eg. more than a 1-2 week vacation or business trip)
4. Intensity - Is it more than 18hrs/week
5. Your status - Are you a "student" (eg. someone taking time off work to become a pilot)
6. Course nature - Is it a formal course of study?

If the answer to any of the above is yes, then you very likely need a Visa, certainly in the case of Q1 (due to the TSA interpretation) and in Q2 if enrolling in a 141 course rather than doing ad-hoc training at a 141 school. However, if

- it is Cat 4 training (no TSA approval)
- it is Part 61
- you visit is short and you are not a "student" but a business person taking vacation time to go to the US
- you are not enrolling in a course of study

then I think there is not a visa requirement, subject to all the caveats and interpretations. Certainly that is the view of schools I have spoken to.
In JAA-land we are programmed to think of formal courses with approvals etc for everything. Remember in the US the CPL upgrade, CFI-MEI-CFII ratings have no "course" requirement at all in Part 61. You turn up at a Part 61 school and buy some ad-hoc training to get an endorsement and take a check ride, you read books to take a Computer based knowledge test - that is not enrolling in a course of study in my mind.

rgds
421C

Tim_CPL

13th Oct 2006, 01:42

Just a clarifying point - you cannot hold multiple visas, at least per my lawyer in Houston. I asked this exact question (do I need an M1 to study for my PPL when I am here on an L1)? Answer - only one visa is valid at any one time, and the L1 (and H1) allows a course of study (including PPL). You are admitted to the US under a visa class, you can adjust to another, but only one class is valid at any given point in time.

This was before the TSA alien flight training rules kicked in and before I got my green card.

- Tim

Mitra

18th Oct 2006, 07:29

I've found some official-looking regulations on that matter:
http://www.nafinet.org/news/2005%20-%2003_28%20-%20TSA%20Clarifies%20Rules%20on%20Visa%20Permitted%20for%20A lien%20PilotsTraining.html

Summary (flight training under Category 1, 2, or 3 / 49 CFR 1552.3):
NO flight training under on B1/B2.
MAY train if on H-1, Green card.
MAY train if on M-1 or F-1 + student has notified SEVIS, or in non SEVIS school.

-- Cheers, Mitra

slim_slag

18th Oct 2006, 12:30

I've found some official-looking regulations on that matterThat's just a web page. The official document is the Federal Registry (PDF) (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2002_register&docid=02-8926-filed.pdf) and I'm afraid it still all boils down to whether a PPL/IR/ME is a "course of study" as defined in US immigration law, which is 18 or 22 hours a week depending on how much is in the classroom.