Mountain Flying

[HuskyDog]

Are there any pilots out there with the Mountain Rating (French, Italian or Swiss) or members of the European Mountain Flying Pilots Association ? Or any "mountain strips" in Scotland ? Any recommendation for the best place to get the European rating - Meribel ??

[IanSeager]

I'd vote for Megeve

Ian

[QDMQDMQDM]

And I categorically wouldn't vote for Megeve.

I went out there in July this year in my own aircraft, a Super Cub, having arranged it with them beforehand and when I got there they basically said they didn't have time to fly with me. They couldn't have been less interested. They seemed to think that, having flown all the way from the UK, I would be happy to sit around the airport on the promise that, maybe, the day after tomorrow, they would be able to do an hour with me. This is what they said!

Part of the problem may have been that I was in my own aircraft so they weren't making as much money (although they charged me 70 Euros an hour for the instructor for the hour or so I was able to do).

I think their priority, or at least that of Jacques Brun, the chief instructor, is to fly tourists around Mont Blanc, not to instruct mountain pilots.

Others -- Ian, Aerobatic Flyer and Flying Dutch -- have had very good experiences there. I had a terrible experience and I thought their attitude to me was remarkable in its lack of shame. It seemed to go completely over their heads that I had basically made a wasted trip, wasted large amounts of money and my week's European flying for the year.

If you decide to go to Megeve, I advise you to get set down in writing what they will offer you.

QDM

[pistongone]

Well i pitched up at Megeve completely out of the blue, and i had a chat with monseur Brun, we settled on a couple of hours in the Jodel 180 for 120 euro's per hour. I didnt want the mountain rating as i wouldnt be able to keep it current. But as a ppl i didnt want to pay tourist rates either. So all in all i think it is the way you approach Monseur Brun! I had a wonderfull flight in and around the trois valleys and if you dont like Megeve, than go to Sallanches, or another couple of hours over the mountains to Courcheval. Whatever you decide, get up there as the scenry is absolutely stunning.

[QDMQDMQDM]

pistongone,

I don't think it's in the way you approach M. Brun. You were there for a quick flight, I was there to do some serious training over a week, which is a big difference.

I think no-one had really thought through my arrival and made any plans. It was something slightly out of the ordinary -- someone coming in their own aircraft -- and so they just ignored it.

They were perfectly pleasant, but they just couldn't gve a toss. Others will likely have better luck, particularly if they are flying in Megeve aircraft. I was seriously disillusioned.

QDM

[IanSeager]

QDM - really sorry that you had that experience. A note for others heading for Megeve - Aeroclub de Megeve is, well an aeroclub. Aeroclubs in France are members clubs and as such they can have a very different 'feel' to a flying school with 'customers' There are two organisations at Megeve, the aeroclub de Megeve and Aerocime. Aerocime is the commercial company (owned by Jacques I beliueve), they do the tourist flights. The aeroclub does the training.

QDM, did you join the club?

Ian

[stickandrudderman]

During a skiing trip a couple of years back, I popped into the club at Courcheval, and was met with complete indifference.
After the usual Gallic shrug, the guy handed me a couple of leaflets in French which, apart from "fai moi la mor", I don't speak!
Perhaps it's a French/English thing?:confused:

[QDMQDMQDM]

Ian,

No-one mentioned joining the club. I would have done, had they asked.

QDM

[Mike Cross]

There's more than one club at Courchevel. Two fixed wing, one helicopter, one balloon and 3 paragliding. Details here. (http://www.courchevel.com/index2.php?page=act-ext)

You can find a useful list here (http://www.afpm.org/aeroclubs01.htm) on the website of the Association Francaise des Pilotes de Montagne (http://www.afpm.org/)

You could also PM Adrian on the Flyer forum. he lives in France and has the full French mountain qualification.

This is he in a D140 from Megeve
http://mrc0001.users.btopenworld.com/webimages/IMG_3355.jpg

Mike

[Mike Cross]

Je crois que EGLD parle bolleaux:E

Qualification Montagne or Altiport Rating is required for landing at Altiports and Altisurfaces in France.

The former is valid for life, the latter is not. Separate categories for wheels and skis.

You can find a certain amount of information ici (http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier/texteregle/arr020204montagne.pdf) (en francais of course)

Mike

[skua]

My understanding is that an altiport rating is only valid for 6 months, therefore if you play it by the rules (and many do not) you need to visit the Alps in SUmmer as well as Winter. Makes it kinda expensive.

Skua

[IanSeager]

skua

Strictly speaking there's no such thing as an altiport rating, there is a 'site specific authorisation', which lasts for six months, so one of those does provide a good excuse to return on a regular basis. The Qualification Montagne is the full rating (there's one for skis and one for wheels) and that doesn't expire.

HTH

Ian

[fltcom]

I reccommend Courchevel - In particular the Three Valleys Aero Club, Speak to Robert Christin - Smashing bloke.

Flt

[Adrian N]

Are there any pilots out there with the Mountain Rating (French, Italian or Swiss) or members of the European Mountain Flying Pilots Association ? Or any "mountain strips" in Scotland ? Any recommendation for the best place to get the European rating - Meribel ??

I have the French ratings (as well as the cool sunglasses in the picture above :cool: ), and am a member of EMP through my membership of the French Mountain Pilots Association. Robert Barrier, the president of EMP and author of what used to be the definitive guide to French mountain landing strips before the internet came along, tried to find an organisation in the UK that would participate in EMP, but failed.

My vote for the best place to get the rating is, of course, Megève. As Ian points out, it is an aéroclub and not a commercial training school; that said, it is the only serious year-round place to train that is open and active all year, it is run by the most experienced CFI, has a very low accident rate and is friendly and welcoming. I've been a member for 6 years, and QDM is the only person I've ever known to have a bad experience. Alternatives are Méribel, which has some very experienced instructors but is much less active than Megève (it has also suffered a lot of accidents in recent years), the Aéroclub du Dauphiné based at Grenoble Le Versoud, and Courchevel - but they seem more focused on quick site authorisations in the Cessna than training towards the full mountain rating. Also, IMHO, they give out site authorisations much too quickly - Megève instructors will make sure you have a lot more experience before signing you off to fly alone.

You can get a mountain rating in Switzerland for glacier flying. The experience requirements are more formal than in France, and I understand that there are a number of good training organisations. There is no automatic equivalence to get a "piggyback" French rating. The Swiss have only one summer landing strip, at Verbier; in France there are dozens, so you can scare yourself in the mountains all year round. (Summer is much more difficult than winter.)

There is the potential to develop lots of "mountain style" one-way strips in the UK. If it happens, perhaps I'll move back home!

[QDMQDMQDM]

As Adrian says, most people seem to have a good experience at Megeve.

I had a bad, unwelcoming one and it may well be due to using my own aircraft. I don't know, but it left a sour taste in my mouth. I feel it is worth highlighting my experience.

In my case, they said to come on a particular day, but emailed me the day before to tell me to come the day after as they were too busy. OK, one day of perfect weather wasted for me, but OK. We then arranged a pickup in Annecy at 08.30, flew straight to Megeve and then.... nothing. We got there and Jacques just walked off. No indication of when we may fly. I speak pretty reasonable French and I walked over and asked him. He said they were very busy, definitely nothing today, possibly tomorrow, but possibly not. I hung around the airfield all day, wondering what to do. I asked Jacques again in the afternoon and now he said definitely not the following day, but possibly the day after. About an hour later, Bruno came up at the end of his day's flying at about 17.30 and asked what I wanted to do? Funny question. Er, learn how to fly the mountains, Bruno: that's what I arranged to come here for! I think he must have taken pity on me. Anyway, he took me up for an hour, which was super. We went to Mayeres and did some circuits at Megeve.

When we got down, I decided it was too dispiriting hanging around at the airfield for days waiting for a crumb of flying to be thrown my way. I paid my bill and left for Annecy and home the next day. No expressions of regret, apology or even any real interest from Jacques or Bruno. Vincent was on holiday.

Most of all, I felt like an idiot and that's what I resent most of all! You would have thought they might have considered that someone flying their own aircraft all the way from England to fly specifically with them might be an interested student of mountain flying... Blah, blah, blah, I'm starting to rant now. Anyway, it pissed me off more than anything else has this year!

My advice is to get a clear indication of what and how much they will do with you before you go. In my case, I think there were too many tourist flights with three passengers to do in the Jodel, as opposed to instructor flights with me at 70 euros an hour in my own Cub. The economics are obvious and that is fine, but they shouldn't have said I could come.



.

[Sunday Bird]

Hi QDMQDM...,

I just discovered your post about Megeve and I can tell you that I fully understand! They will not hear from me any more.

JetSet people are most welcome, they will even obtain their ratings in record time, even if it's the first time they see a mountain! But if you are not one of them, they just don't give a damn about you. Better be a (paying) tourist than a student mountain pilot with them.

So, on my opinion, their organisation is not even a typical French club setup, but more of private club, mainly focused on tourist flights and Ski Ressort attraction.

And believe me, their safety is not so good at all. Reminds me more of the Top Gun "we are the best" behaviour - unjustyfied!

Fly carefully,
Sunday Bird - one more dissapointed

[Medevacjock01]

Is Three Valleys Flying Club at Courcheval still operating? Any update on where is best for the Mountain Rating please?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

WTF is a mountain rating?

Anyone here have an outline of exactly what they teach you and who issues the mountain rating?

What do they consider a mountain?

[piperboy84]

eWTF is a mountain rating?ee

To my knowledge there is no such thing, however a friend of mine with many thousand of hours of jet time told me she attended a "Mountain Flying Camp" https://www.mountaincanyonflying.com

No endorsement to be had but she said it was fun, I think they just drill into you being real particular about knowing your planes exact weight and where the stall is for each weight bracket, kit out the planes you fly with lift reserve indicators etc and warn you about mountain waves, lenticular clouds and flying up box canyons, density altitude etc.

Looks like a nice place to visit and fun thing to do, but I understand they charge like a wounded buffalo

[Chilli Monster]

European questions rarely benefit from North American answers!

French "altiports" to give them their proper name require an additional rating to enable you to operate in and out of them. Chuck / Piperboy - that is what is being referred to.

Google "Courcheval" and you might realise why :)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

European questions rarely benefit from North American answers!

Really?

I live in B.C. and we have a lot more mountains than France has, and just for the record I flew in France for quite a few years and never needed a mountain rating...in fact I had no idea there was such a thing.....

....so who issues this rating and under what authority?


French "altiports" to give them their proper name require an additional rating to enable you to operate in and out of them. Chuck / Piperboy - that is what is being referred to.

Once again, what authority issues and enforces the mountain rating?

Google "Courcheval" and you might realise why


I am quite familiar with the Alps.....

Google " mount aconcagua " .

In 1975 I spent half a day bombing a fire on the border of Chile and Argentina at the eight thousand foot level of the west side of Anconcauga in a PBY. So I think I am at least one North American who understands mountains.....

...but never ever heard of needing a mountain rating in any part of the world I flew in. :rolleyes:

[Mark 1]

so who issues this rating and under what authority?

Chuck, It's an EASA thing:

FCL.815 Mountain rating
(a) Privileges. The privileges of the holder of a mountain rating are to conduct flights
with aeroplanes or TMG to and from surfaces designated as requiring such a
rating by the appropriate authorities designated by the Member States.

It's probably less restrictive than the old French altiport rating and is at least everlasting if you maintain currency.

I'm curious as to how you would go about flying to one of these places with a non-EASA ICAO licence that doesn't have an equivalent rating.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I'm curious as to how you would go about flying to one of these places with a non-EASA ICAO licence that doesn't have an equivalent rating.

I last flew in Europe in 2005 and as far as licensing was concerned I was issued JAR authorizations based on my Canadian licenses.

My Airdisplay Authority was also based on my Canadian licenses and a yearly flight test just like everyone else who flew in the air show circuit..

I also had the age restriction removed to fly as Captain on transport category airplanes, when I retired I was seventy with no restrictions for any type of flying.

How does one get these exemptions?

When you work for the right people they get things done for you. :ok:

And of course they pay you real well for your services.

[mad_jock]

Chuck its basically a high altitude funny runway rating.

Its got nothing to do with flying around mountains you can do that you just can't land at these airports without special training.

They are steep gradient unidirectional runways with a flat area at the top that acts an apron.

As for the none EASA ticket they really won't care, they don't particularly want none locals flying in their anyway. And I suspect once things shake themselves out they will change the rules so that a mountain rating will not just be required and you will need some sort of local sign off before you can use them. And it will go back to the old altiport rules anyway. The airports still retain the right to set their own requirements for approval to use them. And that will include a French check out. And I wouldn't be surprised if they don't impose a French language requirement which is virtually impossible to get unless you hold a French license for EASA licenses outside France.

[N-Jacko]

Is Three Valleys Flying Club at Courcheval still operating? Any update on where is best for the Mountain Rating please? On the basis of a couple of weeks flying there last summer, I'd recommend Megève. Good food, well-maintained D140s (some of which have apparently survived the ski season) and friendly instructors. PM me if you want contact details.

P.S. By all means come and practice a bit in sunny Scotland before you go...

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Guys,

One thing that strikes me reading this thread is that everybody seems to be talking about doing mountain flying in French speaking places.

Are there no mountain flying training establishments in Germany, Austria or the German-speaking cantons of Switzerland? After all, there's no shortage of alps down there.

Regards,

BP.

[PH-UKU]

Don't need a mountain rating for anything in the UK, but if you want to learn a bit about technique and dangers, then you could do worse than an hour or two doing some of this. (http://www.scotlandonfloats.com). All the lochs are generally by definition, in amongst the mountains, and it's a s##tload of fun :E

[AirborneAgain]

Don't need a mountain rating for anything in the UK, but if you want to learn a bit about technique and dangers, then you could do worse than an hour or two doing some of this.. All the lochs are generally by definition, in amongst the mountains, and it's a s##tload of fun As mad_jock said, the "Mountain Rating" is not about flying in mountains, it is about operating from very steep (18.5% in Courchevel) one-way runways.

[Fly-by-Wife]

As mad_jock said, the "Mountain Rating" is not about flying in mountains, it is about operating from very steep (18.5% in Courchevel) one-way runways.

It's not just for difficult runways - for example, St. Tropez airport (La Mole) requires pilots of light aircraft to either have the French mountain rating or have done a "familiarisation" flight with local instructors. This is due to its position in a valley between steep slopes - the runway itself is long and perfectly flat.

FBW

[Burtoni]

I'm interested in doing he mountain rating this summer.

No reply so far from 3vallees aeroclub. Anyone know if they speak English?

Struggling to find any other training place with a website. Any clues??

[mad_jock]

St. Tropez airport (La Mole) can't do anything at all to make you do anything unless you want to land there.