Comanche Owners...

[topcat450]

G'afternoon,

Does anyone on here own / operate a Piper Comanche? I'm interested in the typical performance figures - cruise speed, max alt, range & payload... I've heard 4 adults, baggage and full fuel is easily possible - which seems rather unique for single engined 4 seaters.

Also, importantly any operating costs you have. They seem pretty rare, is there any particular reason for this?

Thanks in advance,

<TC>

[Humaround]

And of course, long range touring potential - viz Sheila Scott's round-the-world trip in the 60's...

[172driver]

Never flown one, sounds like an interesting machine, though. Here's pretty comprehensive info with further links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-24_Comanche

[pa_24_260]

The performance figures will vary considerably depending on whether you're looking at a 180 hp, 250 hp, 260 hp or 400 hp Comanche. The 260 hp was also made as a turbocharged variant.

I have a share in a normally aspirated 260 B model Comanche. I get the following performance out of it.

55% at FL100: 135-140 kt TAS @ 34 L/h (20-40F LOP)
75% at FL70: 158 kt TAS @ 58 L/h (70F ROP)

Service ceiling is 20000 feet, but it takes about 50 minutes to get there. I typically see an average climb rate of 700-800 ft/min up to FL100 when heavy, and as much as 1100 ft/min average up to FL100 when lightly loaded in the winter.

My Comanche has tip tanks giving it a total fuel capacity of 120 gallons (454 L). At 55%, even allowing for climb and reserves, that's more than 11 hours endurance and a range of 1500+ nm. I have yet to make a trip that long, but it's nice to be able to make a round trip to a destination 500 miles away without needing to refuel.

Empty weight is 874 kg, gross weight 1429 kg. With full fuel (454L) that only leaves 229 kg payload, but with a more typical 340 L of fuel (full mains and full auxes) the payload increases to 310 kg.

/Thomas

[markflyer6580]

This months flyer mag has a pretty good flight test about twin commanche's!

[jabberwok]

Flew one many, many years ago but I hasten to say briefly - the owner sold it a few weeks after I checked out in it. Lovely aircraft with very nice handling.

I still have an owners manual here bought at a car boot sale. 60 gallons or 90 with aux tanks burning 14.1gph (US measure) at 75% and 12.7 at 65%. A quick look at my W+B figures suggests that four 170lb adults and full fuel (60g) would take it near MAUW - but I've got this down as 2800lb whereas the handbook says MAUW is 3100lb. I can't explain my lower figure.

Keep the gear well greased - I've seen three Comanche's belly land with gear stuck up or partly so. That's over 35 years though..

I'm sure there are real PA24 drivers who can give you hard rather than book figures.

[bookworm]

This months flyer mag has a pretty good flight test about twin commanche's!

There's a bit of a disconnect between Geoffrey Boot's view of the numbers and that of the owners of the aircraft in the pictures, of whom I am one.

SZ is 300 lb heavier than the empty weight that GB quotes. Maybe in its younger days it was a little lighter, but it's nowhere near a 4-seater with full fuel. I also don't think one should sell the PA30 on speed. Where it wins big time is the economy: 150 knots on 12.5 USG per hour is worth having.

My recommendation is that you should get any aircraft weighed before you buy it, rather than depending on book figures.

[markflyer6580]

Bookworm that's very nice a/c you have!:ok:

There is a nice looking commanche at humberside,parked on the grass parking-never seems to go anywhere but it looks nice. Very low though compared to just about everything else there......

[evansb]

If you haven't all ready done so, peruse the PA24-400s for sale at www.controller.com (http://www.controller.com)

[bookworm]

Bookworm that's very nice a/c you have!:ok:

Aw shucks :O

[Sir George Cayley]

Ask not of thComanche's range...
















But of your bladder's:ok:





I count the time I operated a PA24-250B as some of my most rewarding flying

When buying check th AD's, the compressions in the cylinders and the undercarriage which always was a weak link especilly when operated off grass.

Sir George Cayley

[AC-DC]

I own a Comanche 260C, The Comanche is one of the best all rounder aircraft that was ever produced.
My a/c empty is 1911lbs. MTOA is 3200lbs. which gives 1289lbs. useful load. Fuel in all 4 tanks is 90gl. (US) = 540lbs. which leaves me with 749lbs. for pax and luggage. 4pax. of today’s size (men @ 176lbs. women @121lbs) are 594lbs, this leaves me with 155lbs for my suitcases. 65% cruise at 2500' will deliver 140-142KIS, fuel consumption is 12.5gl/h according to fuel flow and ~ 11.5gl/h according to fuel calculations, 75% power will show ~150KIS with fuel flow of 14gl/h, with this fuel consumption I get 7.5h to dry tanks at 65% and 6.5h at 75%, the range is between 950nm to 1100nm if fly high and at ~ 50%-55% power, saying this, the longest leg that I flew was from Cannes back to the UK, with headwinds it was about 4.75h and I landed with ~ 30gl left.
There are several models of the Single Comanche which are designated according to the engine H.P, 180, 250 (carburetted & injected), 260, 260B, 260C (& turbo) and 400. The Twincom. comes as PA30, PA30B, PA30C and PA39. The Comanche has only 1 expansive AD that needs to be carried out every 1000h, this is the gear inspection, if the gear is not adjusted correctly or worn out you have a good chance to sit very close to the ground, other than this all is very straight forward. The aircraft is strongly built and well supported by after market suppliers and the International Comanche Society ( http://www.comancheflyer.com/ ) that provides tech. support. The aircraft is old and you need to check it very well before buying, the condition will effect the price, however, there are many good examples as well.
If you want to buy drop me a note and I will see if there are any aircraft that a European ICS members wants to sell, usually their aircraft are in better condition but not always.

[Longbow55]

The Comanche is a fine machine, got time in one while instrument training, and it definetly got put on my scope of planes to buy.

[jabberwok]

A geat shame Lock Haven flooded. If one aircraft should have been brought back into production the Comanche would have got my vote.

[flyingfemme]

Comanches come in many flavours; as already mentioned (assuming we are talking singles) you can have from 180 to 400hp. The 400s are very rare and expensive but the 250/260s are not. There is a large and very active owner community worldwide with plenty of help/advice and camaraderie available if you want it.

Fuel capacity varies from 60usg to 120usg with up to six tanks, including aftermarket tips available. Adding tip tanks gives a MTOW increase that takes care of the extra 30usg fuel.

I have a 1960 PA24-250 with original carb feed and it will easily take four, normal sized, adults with full (60usg) fuel and some baggage. Legroom in the back is more than generous.

I tend to cruise at 150mph for around 13usg/hr but I baby it - faster and leaner is possible.

Costs are similar to an Arrow but IMHO it is a far prettier aircraft. They are smooth and harmonious to fly; if you are stepping up from a trainer you will notice a big difference. Comanches have much more in common with Mooneys than their Cherokee descendants because, so I've heard, Bill Piper bought the design from Al Mooney.

These days you won't find anybody using them for training so they are mostly privately-owned and well looked after.

And Jabberwock - have you seen the Ravin 500? A South African pilot thought like you and has a composite Comanche copy (with up-to-date improvements) for sale. They are marketing them in the USA now but I don't suppose they can be kept in Europe. Shame.

[jabberwok]

No - I admit I have not heard of the Ravin. No brownie points there.

I knew two Comanche pilots who have flown the aircraft across the Atlantic. One was the venerable Mike Dible who flew the Newfoundland to Azores route in the late 1960's (there was an article about this in Pilot magazine at the time). Mike was later seen flying around the UK in Martin Baker's lovely DC3 with John Fifield.

Second Atlantic voyager was Peter Riggs in N26634, a PA24 260 with 10 hours endurance. Peter sadly passed away last year - I know not what happened to this aircraft.

[flyingfemme]

No - I admit I have not heard of the Ravin. No brownie points there.

It's what the Comanche should be by now....
Ravin 500 (http://www.ravinaircraftusa.com/specs.html) cruises at over 200mph and has a range of 2000nm on standard fuel.
Oh, for a sensible permit to fly! :ugh:

[AC-DC]

Second Atlantic voyager was Peter Riggs in N26634, a PA24 260 with 10 hours endurance. Peter sadly passed away last year - I know not what happened to this aircraft.

The aircraft is a 250 not 260 abd his endurance was more than 10h as he had 100gl tank at the back, he used to fly non stop from IOM to Canada or the US, I am not sure. The aircraft was bought by a guy who lives near Southend and I bought some of Peter's unwanted and left overs.

Now I must ask you a question. Are you sure that he passed away? I send a friend to buy the cabin tank from him only 5-6 months ago and I was told that all was fine with him.

[BlueRobin]

TC, might the PA-24 be too rich for your veins unless your :mad: has made you publisher? :E Whatever the deal is, have a gander over what it has historically cost to maintain.

[jabberwok]

ACDC,

I'm happy to report that age and failing memory are the culprits here and Peter is still going strong. I'd mentally switched names with another IoM resident pilot whose demise was also mentioned in the same email to me.

I knew Peter when he'd not had the aircraft long and used to say it had a ten hour endurance. Did the cabin tank get fitted some time later in his ownership?

[AC-DC]

ACDC,
I'm happy to report that age and failing memory are the culprits here and Peter is still going strong.
That sounds better now :)
I knew Peter when he'd not had the aircraft long and used to say it had a ten hour endurance. Did the cabin tank get fitted some time later in his ownership?
Seems like it, he spent lots of money on the aircraft and had one of the best PA24 around.
For those who wants to read about the history of the PA24 and see some old photos have a look at but note that the site is not maintained any longer.
http://www.comanchepilot.com/Development/development.html