Air Ambulance - Police Helicopter

[Flash0710]

There are 103,023 Members her i want a pound a dollar or a yen from you...

In response to Mike Usherwoods letter in Septembers Pilot magazine could we all please at least pledge £1 for a start to HEMS in town or if you know a better one ANY air ambulance?

Here is HEMS. i can't seem to find a separate one for a central AA set up.

http://www.hems-london.org.uk/

As has been raised Police are fully gov funded to watch us and even more maddening, keep residents of newmarket awake to recover £30 of stolen fuel.... ( Remind me how much it costs to even start a twin turb helo?...

Frustratingly i watched a cheesey programme about Police flyers. Nothing personal but when PAS were being introduced they were almost always mult-Role ie pas and Medi. Now i have just had to watch a man with his foot hanging off in fairly obvious pain wait while a police helicopter ( notar ) shuts down and uhms and ahh's re returning a patient from a pretty inhospitable/ driving to place. HE IS THERE HES HAS THE SPACE WHY NOT REDUCE POTENTIAL TRAUMA AND IMMEDIATELY ACCEPT THE PATIENT. Plus also accept that the usefulness of a landing in a tight spot i guess ( not as an expert ) would be a nice thing to keep sharp with.

From my own selfish point of view i would like to think that if ever i needed to be dealt with quickly in a medical way my chances of doing what i am doing right now are greatly increased. With the provision of the rapid transfer by air.

Could we also stop wasting the tax on pointless launches by pas and put it the way of the Air Ambulances who we never know when we could need.

Im in


f

[Whirlygig]

Well the East Anglian Air Ambulance always gets my support.

I even volunteered to do a sponsored non-banjo playing session for them i.e. Fiver for the Air Ambulance or she'll start playing the banjo! That event got cancelled unfortunately!

However, there may be other issues as to why the police didn't accept the patient. Insurance maybe and also liability if something goes wrong. I know this is something I was warned about during first aid training. Sad I know but indicative of the society in which we now live.

Cheers

Whirls

[bingoboy]

Absolutely. I wonder how as a nation we can accept that charity supports the Air Ambulance system.

If we cut out a fraction of the politically correct waste...

[Human Factor]

Thames Valley Air Ambulance (http://www.airambulancetvac.org/)

Worth every penny and more. I'd like them to turn up fairly quickly if the Yak stops Yakking. Wouldn't you?

[J.A.F.O.]

keep residents of newmarket awake to recover £30 of stolen fuel....

I'm all for supporting the work of the Air Ambulances and, indeed, it's a shame that they have to run as charities; however, the above part of your message that I quoted didn't happen and even if it had would you prefer that they let criminals go? Perhaps they should set a minima for how much someone has to have nicked before they send anybody at all, or perhaps a sliding scale:

Telly nicked = 1 policeman for 1 hour
Car nicked = 2 policemen
Posh car nicked = 2 policemen and a helicopter

I'm sure you'd love that, call 999 to report a stolen car only to be told it wasn't worth enough for anyone to bother and what about the other work that they do? How much is a missing child worth to you?

By all means urge support for the Air Ambulance but why rubbish the work of other people along the way?

[tmmorris]

On past experience you can add:

bunch of schoolboys inaccurately reported as illegally hunting with dogs: 1 helicopter, 1 car

Talk about priorities!

Tim

[yakker]

Maybe all the Air Ambulance Helicopters could be paid for from the money raised from Safety Camera's.

[cessna l plate]

I support the Wales Air Ambulance at CAE.
Not in a finincial way, although any help they get is good. I have now retired from being a DJ, but I still turn out to do a fund raiser for them every year, willingly give my time, throw a little in the pot at raffle time and so-on. The sad thing is that they tell you the figures at do's like this. (Just for the record I never used to go out for less than £250)

Why oh why is there no govt funding whatsoever for this project country wide? Whilst the work the Police Helis do is erstwhile, I personally put a greater priority on saving life than catching crooks. Yes, invaluable in the case of a missing child, but as soneone else said, how much does it cost to start a police heli up when balanced against a £50 tank of petrol.

Same old story really, but we have a strange set of priorities in this country, but I for one will carry on doing all I can to help when I can.

[FullyFlapped]

http://www.yorkshireairambulance.org.uk for the Yorkshire Air Ambulance, which we support (in fact Mrs. FF is doing another charity thing shortly, and if anyone wants to contribute please let me know ... but don't send any more cakes, fer gawdssakes !).

When I asked why they're not government financed, I was told that they need to keep it on a charitable basis, because at least then they can't be shut down if some clown decides that the money is needed elsewhere (a new cowboy hat for Prescott, perhaps). Absolutely bloody barking mad.

FF :ok:

[Kit d'Rection KG]

I was also very disappointed by a number of aspects of the operation shown.

Why despatch to a 'known hotspot' to start searching, without ensuring that units on the ground are available to assist?

What would have been the remarks from the folk around him if the injured biker had been refused, and the helo had departed empty? I'm pretty sure the publicity wouldn't have been positive.

Liked the style of one of the pilots - nice bloke, got on with the job quietly.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

The RNLI and other lifeboat operators are pretty content with being funded by donations, in principle, as it ensures they are independent of HMG and can make their own decisions...

[ormus55]

On past experience you can add:

bunch of schoolboys inaccurately reported as illegally hunting with dogs: 1 helicopter, 1 car

Talk about priorities!

Tim

you can add another one from the bbc news recently. 4 policemen turned up to an incident regarding a man who kept some boys football, (in his garden) and popped it.

[S205-18F]

I am about to start a 5 year secondment with the Scottish Ambulance Service Helimed 5 based at the Heliport in Glasgow! It is funded by the Scottish Executive but it is used to support the Islands and other inaccessible areas in Scotland where there is a need for medical care but not enough demand for a permanent land based ambulance. Justification for this is the huge geographic area and distances between communities. The service provided is amazing along with the speed with which the casuality gets to a specialist hospital makes any fundraising worthwhile. Good luck!

[slim_slag]

S205-18F. Do you think there is similar justification for densely populated areas of the UK? Also, just for my interest, do you have a maximum time on the ground before people start asking questions?

[S205-18F]

There is a definite need for HEMS even in densely populated areas but I think there is also a case for screening what it is used for TIME/DISTANCE Where a land based unit can get to the scene in the same time ultimately the land based unit will be with the patient quicker due to the set down time and checks that a HEMS unit has to go through, plus where they can set down relative to an incident. No real use in built up areas because there is no where nearby to land. As Paramedics become more highly skilled and have a larger arsenal of drugs and techniques to use time on scene is less important as we can stabilise at scene (IV Fluids intubation etc) and therefor viability on arrival at an appropriate hospital, Major Trauma, Neurosurgical etc is improved. Main uses are RTAs and any sort of outdoor activities Horses, Motorcycles, Water sport etc. Sorry for a long reply.

[maxdrypower]

How many of the contributors to this thread are experienced police officers or exprienced police pilots?, It is is once again members of the public who all believe thay can do the job better than those with the correct training and experience . Its unfortunate that most people think they can do the job better than the police and their opinion is always right however you dont seem them actually doing it . As you may have guessed I am a police officer and I am a helicopter observeIt is obvious to me that Flash has no experience of heli or police ops and doesnt actually even come across as apilot , He mentions the NOtar shuts down while the patient is in pain , well yeh have you ever tried to reassure a patient in pain and place him in the back of a heli with two turbines going and rotors running with only two men ? yeh sometimes ambulance crew can help but they are not always there . And when they are there decsions have to be made over best way of transporting a patientas you correctly point oout it takes a lot of fuel to sart a heli so if the job isnt life threatening which a hanging off foot is not , although very painful why spend thousands when the ambulance is just as good. It is obvious when writing this your thoughts of flight safety left you big time I would be interested to see how you brief any passengers brave enough to fly with you. Your other point " Pointless launches by PAS " Pas is one of many companies that contracts aircraft and pilots to the police and ambulance services some employ and own their own aircraft and the aircrew are privately employed . Deployment of the aircraft is down to the individual crew on the day no on else each job is taken on its merits . Yeh £30 of petrol no might not be much to you but it may well be to someone else its all about publuic perception . So if int he future you contact the police as you have been a victim of crime im sure you will tel them that you want no expensive resources deployed as its only a minor crime and you can live with it . We as a police service are supposed to help as much as we can and if that involves a heli then so be it . We have less resources than any other emergency service and we are overburdoned with just about every aspect if we can help we will if we cant then we cant we are not superhuman but please dont slag off something of which oyu have no experience
On past experience you can add:

bunch of schoolboys inaccurately reported as illegally hunting with dogs: 1 helicopter, 1 car

Talk about priorities!

Tim
Then theres this, the keywords here are illegally REPORTED what the police have esp now do we ? So u fone the police and say man with gun in street we say yeh whatever dont be soft we ll send a single manned car bobby gets shot we say oh well **** happens . or do we gove it the approprioate response , if were wrong were wrong but at least everyone is safe ?
this made me laugh

you can add another one from the bbc news recently. 4 policemen turned up to an incident regarding a man who kept some boys football, (in his garden) and popped
you believe everything you read dont you , this man pooped the football yeh absolutely , the phone call to the police was that the man had also got the child by the scruff of the neck and was threatening him with the knife , but hey guess you sun readers are a gullible bunch like i said before rather turn up with four and find the child safe than turn up with one officer and the child get his throat slit , but hey you guys knew that didnt you
Pucker up guys and stop living in a dream world your jobs and companies are obviously perfect with no problems and i wish you all well please tell me which utopia your living in and ill come join u

[stiknruda]

which utopia your living in and ill come join u

Er, that would be the one with a spell checker, punctuation and grammar......


:E :E

[maxdrypower]

so i dont proof read and spell check , any valid points to raise ?

[Kit d'Rection KG]

There's a world of difference between the odd error, which might be corrected at ther proof-reading stage, and your screed above.

Notwithstanding that, shall we say, you take a more relaxed approach than many of us to your mother tongue, there are very valid points here. There were aspects of the operation shown in the prgramme which, with the benefit of very relevant experience, I found lacking. I'm sure other professional pilots reading here will know what I mean, but you won't draw me into specifics because I have no intention of attacking an individual's actions in a public forum.

Sadly, your point about the casevac doesn't stand. The helo went to the scene, and shut down. Whether it departed with the casualty or not made hardly any difference. Clearly, the medics were going to say whatever they had to, to ensure that the helo was used. Embarrassing jumping through nonsensical hoops, in my opinion. Much bettter get on with the task, especially if humanitarian.

[pistongone]

Your a police observer, so from that can we assume your not a chopper pilot?
Therefore seeing as a large number of us here are pilots, i would guess matters of opp's and procedures would be something we could educate you on.
And so you dont punctuate? Well if ever i have the mis-fortune to be involved in a legal white elephant ( trumped up charges and such like!) i hope it is yourself filing the reports, any first year law stude would have a field day with such sloppyness! Surely Discipline and attention to detail go hand in hand with one performing such an important job and spending the public purse in such large quantities.?
Also, before you ask, one of my close colleageues is a DS in Scarborough, currently being considered for placement to a certain building on the south side of Vauxhall Bridge, big beige modern place with Christmas trees all over it:ok: I have no satisfactory explanation as to why these were deemed necessary on such a building, with the cost born by the tax payer!
Have a nice day and i hope you chill out before your next collar, as i fear for your unbiased objectivity being in tact!

[tmmorris]

bunch of schoolboys inaccurately reported as illegally hunting with dogs: 1 helicopter, 1 car

Talk about priorities!

Tim
Then theres this, the keywords here are illegally REPORTED what the police have esp now do we ?

I'm sorry, exactly what danger were the boys posing? Or do you think 'hunting' means 'with guns', like it does in American English?

Tim

[pistongone]

Good point PD, i guess thats what they mean by priority? One other point, i deffinitely remember a big brough hagh about police authorities stating response priorities! For example a call to a domestic disturbance doesnt require Michael Schumacher driving techniques, where as a break in at Tony Blaires house would most deffinitely call for that type of Response! Further, a reported break in with no one on the premisess doesnt even warrant attendance by the beat boys! Also an Estate Agent, Female, reported to police that a house she was valueing was possibly occupied by druggies. The answer was, to a female mind, go and check it out, if you need any help give us ANOTHER call!! If i was of sarcastic persuasion, i would venture that there were porbably 50 or more officers around the proverbial corner carrying out the vital task of checking perfectly innocent people who happen to be driving cars, commonly refered to by Govt, police etc as :E "MOTORISTS" :E for Tax dsics etc. WHERE DID IT ALL GO WRONG:{ :{ :{

[slim_slag]

S205-18F,

Interesting stuff. So if there is a problem out on an Island in the middle of nowhere who is First Responder? Who decides to launch you from Glasgow?

[S205-18F]

Hi Slim Slag, It goes something like this. The GP calls and decides whether he/she can deal with the incident, if yes then we are not used, if no then we launch from Glasgow and go directly to the scene. During day light hours we can land in their back garden space permitting or at night the casuality is transported to a lit helipad!!! Bad weather presents another issue and then the very nice (very brave) chaps at SAR come pick one of us up and brave the elements while we sit in the back and sh*t ourselves. We have an EC135 Eurocopter which is ideal for HEMS work but less than for air ambulance work!

[maxdrypower]

Tim I make the same point you ask what threat the boys posed ? Well the operator on the phone can only take into account what she is told on the phone , correct ? It wasnt known that they were boys until the correct response to the REPORTED incident had arrived , but like I say if you have ESP then join the police you could save us all a lot of time . Unfortunately all those involved in public sector work will know that the public exaggerate hugely when they call the police . Two men fighting isnt reported as such its reported as ten men fighting with knives or suchlike , and so four kids in a field with an air rifle becomes "4 men with shotguns have threatened me " I come across this every day but you have to respond in the safest manner for the public . If a crewmen comes into the crewroom and states " the heli is on fire " do you send one man to look or do you call the fire service and deal with it appropriatley . This is my point Please dont have a go at the police who are dealing with everything with no resources in the safest way they can , we are all tied down by beaurocracy ,you pilots will know exactly what I mean , we have all dealt with the CAA ,now multiply that by ten you will have some idea of the legal moral and ethical crap we have to deal with on a daily basis
Rant over take this in the manner its meant , it is not a go at professionals just trying to get some people to understand what is involved in these sorts of operations .

[S205-18F]

Hi Droopystop, I see you have more than a passing interest in HEMS then. I think a lot of the issues on the small Islands are more to do with politics than the actual service but I maybe mistaken there! We do our best to keep both sides happy and, sofar, there has been no hostility towards us as a crew but there have been a lot of complaints.

[tittybar]

Pistongone, as a Police Officer and pilot (allbeit fixed wing) you are spouting c**p. Wind your neck in before you have a coronary.:ugh:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Reports on police helicopter operations should be published on relevant web sites (the names change every five minutes with the changes to the regulatory regimes, "best value reports" was what they were called a couple of years ago).

Plus the operators will attend local police liaison meetings if asked nicely, and give a run-down of their operations. (I haven't managed to actually blag a ride in the chopper yet though.)

Apart from the direct life saving that goes on (finding runaway kids and escaped mental patients on cold nights, for example) there are some cases where it is rather dangerous to chase perps on the ground, such as kids misbehaving on motorcycles, so the choice is between letting them get on with it and sending the chopper to have a look. There could be some indirect life saving here - just imagine what would happen if police motorcyclists were sent after them instead. (Hint: the kids can't hear the chopper over their own engine noise, so they can be followed home and nicked nice and safely by ground forces once they've got off their bikes.)

Oh, and as well as the life saving stuff they go after criminals too. When you're doing a drugs raid for example it's quite useful to have someone up above with an IR viewer telling you through which back gardens the perps are esacaping

[FullyFlapped]

Your a police observer, so from that can we assume your not a chopper pilot?
Therefore seeing as a large number of us here are pilots, i would guess matters of opp's and procedures would be something we could educate you on.
And so you dont punctuate? Well if ever i have the mis-fortune to be involved in a legal white elephant ( trumped up charges and such like!) i hope it is yourself filing the reports, any first year law stude would have a field day with such sloppyness! Surely Discipline and attention to detail go hand in hand with one performing such an important job and spending the public purse in such large quantities.?
Also, before you ask, one of my close colleageues is a DS in Scarborough, currently being considered for placement to a certain building on the south side of Vauxhall Bridge, big beige modern place with Christmas trees all over it I have no satisfactory explanation as to why these were deemed necessary on such a building, with the cost born by the tax payer!
Have a nice day and i hope you chill out before your next collar, as i fear for your unbiased objectivity being in tact!
OK, so without even getting involved in the validity of this argument - which I thought was in support of the Air Ambulance guys - how many grammatical and spelling errors are contained in the above ?

We'll let the ranting policeman pick the prize ... !

FF :ok:

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Well, at least there weren't spaces before the full stop at the end of every sentence... Just most of them...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Must say, though, a law graduate with an FATPL and he's been a plod for 13 years... Must be a great job...

[maxdrypower]

Well Kit , seeing as you wish to drag this to gutter level childish snipes . It has taken me the 13 years to raise the cash to do the full qualification and the police gives me the income to do that I would have thought that obvious , not to worry . Thanks fully flapped I did notice them too but as I stated previously I was trying to make a point , a point that everyone understood regardless of grammar and punctuation unlike piston who made none and just had a go ,I will leave it that .

[Droopystop]

S205....

Sorry for deleting my post - it was written in a rush and without enough thought. I agree that most of the problem is political/resistance to change etc and that any perceived drop in service is not down to the new crews. There are one or two issues which leave question marks in my own mind, but they relate to the previous contractor and are best kept to myself.

Back to the main thread though...

I didn't see the program in question but I gather that a police helicopter attended a scene where someone was seriously injured and couldn't/didn't take them to hospital.

Sadly in this day and age the risk of being sued must be considered. I deplore this development in society, but unfortunately one has to cover their own ass, because no one else is going to. With the best will in the world policemen are not trained to deal with severe trauma. Thats what paramedics have been through extremely rigourous training for. If the guy was going to die, then yes do what you can, get him into hospital and break "every rule" in the book if you have to (just as the regualtions allow you to). But the best care for that casualty might well have been to administer first aid and get proper trained help there asap. Also remember that police air support units are bound by AOC/Flight manual limitations which may prohibit the use of some hospital landing sites (except of course for saving life).

On a more general note, I think the general public have to be careful not to consider helicopters as being a magic solution to everything. They are of course fallible and are often asked to operate in confined areas/areas of unpredictable wind and turbulence. You cannot just blag your way into somewhere that is just big enough for you to land in. If you run out of power, you crash just like any other flying machine will. There are times (thankfully very rare with the more modern aircraft) when the risk to a/c and crew is such that the casualty comes second (remember the first rule of first aid? Your safety first).

I agree with the sentiment that UK's air ambulances should be better funded. But my concern would be that if the cost had to come from NHS trust coffers, helicopters would not be used as often as if they would be if they were being paid for by someone else.

[Flash0710]

Max, im not a helo jock but when i have been at the airport watching one either start or shut down it takes time....

I have also seen the BO105 which had clamshell doors at the back to slide the patient in and out. Correct me if im wrong but i seem to remeber that they HAD to shut down to install a patient in this way. That was my point!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hour_(medicine)

Again my point......



rgds

f

[maxdrypower]

Now I Have just recieved an email from someone called Titty bar who claims that I am spouting crap as a police officer and as a pilot(albeit fixed wing) he says .He has incorrectly identified me as Pistongone so for that Piston I must apologise . However this post doesnt seem to be here I can only imagine he has deleted upon realising that pointing out that I am spouting crap is pretty much a hypocritical statment , Sorry piston for having this person drag your good name down when he hasnt bothered to read the name on the post

[S205-18F]

Flash0710 in answer to your post! we use an EC135 which we can hotload from the front port side with an orthopaedic stretcher and as a result it is a relatively quick and safe manoeuver there are also clam doors which we can use safely due to having a Fenestron system for tail rotor.
John.

[Daft bat]

Maxdrypower
It was a brave decision to stick your head above the parapet, you sometimes get people who use the site to get information and educate themselves further by asking questions.
In this period of higher threats from terrorist as well as the normal crime the Police get my support. Sadly you will get ignorant people like who posted the thread to start with (probably been caught speeding recently).
Those that want a more information about of this thread should go to the thread posted by SKYDRILLER called CHOPPER COPPERS also in ROTERHEADS.
This has lots of good information how the Police operate the way they do on CASEVACS and explains the wonders of TV editing.
Finally MAXDRYPOWER keep your chin up you get my vote and so do HEMS and all emergency services they do a difficult job while constantly being cut back by government.:ok:

[MightyGem]

OK, just to clarify a couple of points regarding the casevac on this weeks Skycops programme.

The crew were asked to assist as the Air Ambulance was not available. A Police helicopter is a Police Helicopter. It is not an Air Ambulance and it is not a HEMS operation. There are differences.

A Police helicopter may carry out a casevac, a casevac being:

c) Casevac
A flight, the purpose of which, is to give immediate assistance to a sick or injured person in life threatening circumstances.

Therefore, the crew have to ascertain whether there are life threatening circumstances. Now, to my limited experience of first aid situations, nobody is going to die just because his foot's half hanging off!

However, that's beside the point. The crew were being filmed for a TV programme, so they have to be seen to be playing by the rules. Oh, and by the way, it's not the bobbies that the CAA are going to be asking questions of, it's the pilot. Anyway, the paramedic is asked, and gives his opinion that the situation is life threatening, and the jobs a good un, and off they go to the hospital.

Anyway, don't believe everything that you see on the telly. That's why the 902 sounds like a Jetranger/Bell 47/R22(something with only 2 blades anyway), shots of the aircraft airbourne show engine instruments at zero, and the seasons were changing from shot to shot on the way back to base!!

[Flash0710]

so i dont proof read and spell check , any valid points to raise ?


Yes, you claimed to be a professional. Myself and others have noticed a few holes.....

Im not slagging your job off here mate.Policy editing who cares? why not multi role the whole lot the Services are. So why try to belittle?

As i posted the other day about the very fortunate chap pulled out of the oggin with no jacket. It is very nice to know that a rapid response to something i would personally be bricking it, happens,,,,,

Thanks others for filling in tech gaps. And i also fumed today at the fact that the lifeboats have to do it themselves.


nucking futs this place.......

XX

f

[Tetchy]

Hello All

I am involved in Police aviation, and no I did not see the recent program.

Pilots, Observers, Crews, and alike lets get it right, the program is jazzed up nothingness, its a half hour show condensed into 60 minutes !

I agree the sound is heavily dubbed using the Hollywood standard jetranger, Its tacky and for those in the job , grim viewing.

I sat cringing watching the first show, and sadly I will admit I was at work.


So lets not fall out here, its TV folks its SH*Te




Tetchy

[Colonal Mustard]

I`m bored now guv......can i go home:ugh:

[bondu]

Flash0701.

You stated that:

"the BO105 which had clamshell doors at the back to slide the patient in and out. Correct me if im wrong but i seem to remeber that they HAD to shut down to install a patient in this way."

Wrong.

I was lucky enough to spend 18 months flying a BO105 for North West Air Ambulance and we often loaded the patient through the rear doors with rotors running. It depended entirely on the situation: landing site, patient injuries etc. The Police obviously didn't want to close the road/motorway down for longer than necessary; so we would land in the field alongside, close down and the paramedics will do their stuff. When the patient was stable and loaded onto the stretcher, I would start up. The Police would then stop the traffic and I would reposition onto the carriageway. The paramedics, with Police/fireman assistance, would then 'hot load' the patient, and we would be away. Minimum disruption to other traffic on the road/motorway.

An example of good co-operation between all the emergency services. :ok:

And yes, it was/still is extremely frustrating to have to rely on charity to fund the Air Ambulance services in England and Wales. I would not wish to see the funded given directly by the NHS, for the reasons stated elsewhere on this thread. However, why each area service couldn't be sponsored by 'big business' I don't know. Imagine the prestige/PR value that BP or Shell etc would get if they funded an Air Ambulance? As for the public, in the NW we covered an area with a population of 6 million plus. If every man, woman and child had given just 10p each, that would have fuded our BO105 for a whole year! (Cost in 2000/2001 was £600,000 approximately).

bondu :ok:

[fone_effect]

keep residents of newmarket awake to recover £30 of stolen fuel.... ( Remind me how much it costs to even start a twin turb helo?...

FLASH 0701

Where in Newmarket do you live ? I am sure the police will avoid sending the helicopter to help you when you are in need.

[Flash0710]

FLASH 0701
Where in Newmarket do you live ? I am sure the police will avoid sending the helicopter to help you when you are in need.
So Mr Effect are you implying that this is a reasonable use of resources and time?

I would also like to hope that the services do not sink to that level of pettiness.


Bondu,

Thanks for your clarification. My tech knowledge in this area is not 100% ( obviously)

Cheers

f

[What Limits]

So what do you think is a reasonable use of resources and time ?

[Flash0710]

Firstly What,

Tell me if you agree that this is a worthwhile deployment..

rgds

f

[What Limits]

What were the facts given to the Air Support Unit at the time of the deployment?

For instance, if it was simply a Making Off Without Payment - this is probably not worth a deployment, but if the aircraft was in the area, it was a distinctive vehicle, if it was involved in other crime, if it was being pursued by police, if there had been an armed robbery, if Police Officers had been threatened with weapons, a child had been abducted, it was being driven by Elvis.......

By the same token, I have experience of 'the facts' being sexed up in order to force a deployment of an aircraft for a crock of sh1t !!

[Non-PC Plod]

Would you believe, someone tried to launch us for theft of a flapjack from a petrol station shop? As the crew, you can only give your best advice, but at the end of the day its someone else's trainset, and the hierarchy (Chief Constable/ACPO ranks) will have to take the rap from the public for your actions, so they get the last shout unless there is a safety/pilot type reason (as opposed to operational) for not going.

[Bertie Thruster]

It could have been one of those really tasty flapjacks (you know, the one with the caramel topping) rather than a plain one.

[whoateallthepies]

http://www.vwenthusiast.com/yabbse/attachments/homer-drool.gif

OOOOOOOOOOHHHH!!!!!!!

Seriously though (for Jayrow) I agree with What Limits. You have to know the particular circumstances of the callout.

I remember looking for a scroat who had nicked a bottle of booze from an off-license. Now normally you wouldn't consider it but in this case we were in the area, 5 minutes from base and it was reported he'd made off along the railway line at night, so a reasonable chance of spotting him. He is an offender, after all and where do you draw the line as to when you don't go looking for these people. What would PC Plod on the ground have thought if we had just continued to base over his head because his offender wasn't important enough for us? (No, we didn't find him):{

[metalman]

They tell us that the swansea air ambulance costs £2m pound per annum to run,yes thats correct £2m,what a waste of money,would it not be more beneficial to more people on a regular basis if that money was used to fund a diabetic unit, a heart unit,even a trauma unit,i mean to say we have to divide the benefit into the cost,dont we? After all we have the police chopper, (why not put a paramedic on board) we even have the chivenor search and rescue helicopter that is fully equipped for almost any emergency and only 15 minutes away! And please dont give me that old chesnut "you may need it on day" as that is not an answer and it just doesnt wash!!
Just a thought,
your views and opinions please,
metalman

[What Limits]

All aboard the hamster wheel !!

[Bertie Thruster]

Very tempting, What Limits!
First hampster climbing aboard!..............
Metalmans cost/benefit views are valid........but only where air ambulances are centrally funded.
However the Swansea air ambulance is funded by direct contributions from the public. Those contributors want an air ambulance for that money and not a diabetic, heart, or trauma unit.
The relative financial merit of any charity based service does not require debate. It's simply what the people supporting that charity want. Just like the RNLI.
Police helicopters on the other hand are centrally funded.........................

[Whirlygig]

Thank you Bertie for putting that a lot more patiently than I would have done!!

And please dont give me that old chesnut "you may need it on day" as that is not an answer and it just doesnt wash!!
It is an answer and it does wash. One could easily say that they don't need a trauma unit or baby-care unit or heart unit.

My opinion is that I disagree with you!

Cheers

Whirls

[Coconutty]

Some more thoughts for the melting pot :

Police helicopters : Surely there's far more to it than the relative value of the crime committed ( e.g. £30 worth of petrol ) :confused:

To consider purely the value of goods stolen, or the cost of damage caused as to whether the use of a Police helicopter is justified is, IMHO, a bit narrow minded. Also to be considered should be the cost SAVINGS of Police time on the ground - whatever the "value" of the offence.
There are also other reasons apart from financial ......

e.g. It's 2 am and I see someone prowling around in my back garden - obviously up to no good - I don't think he has tried to break into my house ( yet ) and I call the Police.
The Police arrive - and see the baddie who runs off from them - deeper into the garden area and over a couple of fences. They call for "Back Up" and half a dozen of them surround the area but can't find him, so they call their helicopter to help.
At this point in time, other than trespassing ( a civil offence ? ) no-one knows what the baddie has done, if anything. He might be wanted for a string of break-ins and robberies, or he might just have the proverbially overdue library ticket - who knows ? He must have had a reason for running off so the Police ( I hope ) will want to find him, find out why, and find out what he was up to in my garden.
Without the helicopter they could spend an hour or so searching in the dark, in an unfamilar area, potentially endangering themselves - not knowing whether he is armed and about to attack them from behind the next bush .... or they might decide not to search and let him get away - who knows ?

The helicopter arrives and searches the area in just a few minutes, and SAFELY. ( Wakes a few of my neighbours up but hey - they're now all looking out of their windows too, and will hopefully phone 999 if they see the guy ).

If the bad guy is spotted by the chopper crew, then they talk a Police dog in, or light him up with the search light for Officer safety, and hopefully he gets caught. Maybe not till the next morning when my neighbours get up for work, will we find out what has been stolen or damaged etc.

Whether the bad guy is found or not, there will have been huge savings in Police time on the ground - even if he has already escaped and is not found, the 6 PC's can get on with other work / patrols much quicker, and this alone I would imagine, will have justified the cost of the Police helicopter being there.

How do you measure the savings in Police time, the benefits to the safety of the Police on the ground, the service and response to myself as a taxpayer for reporting the incident, the reassurance of all the other residents in the area knowing the Police were there looking after them, and the Crime prevention factor while the helicopter was there ?

Like I say - there's probably a lot more to it than £30 of petrol so keep up the good work :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg