Customs wants to 'shoot from choppers'

[Bat-Off]

Recently on the Courier Mail:

Stupid of me to think they'd actually want to use this to stop illegal activites!:ugh:


CUSTOMS officials want to be able to fire weapons from helicopters to better protect Australia's borders and fishing grounds.
The capacity to shoot from the air will be part of the Rapid Response Helicopter Service the Australian Customs Service plans to launch in January, The Australian newspaper reports today.
Tender documents say the helicopter will "enhance Australia's fisheries and maritime surveillance, compliance and enforcement arrangements in Northern Australia".
But officials have ruled out following the example of US customs, which uses sharpshooters in helicopters to disable the engines of illegal vessels.
Customs officers would only be able to fire at feral animals that come onto mainland Australia from illegal fishing vessels, a Customs spokesman said.
"If a foreign fishing vessel brought with it a feral animal that was considered to be a quarantine risk ... then we would need to have the capability to destroy that animal," the spokesman told the newspaper.
Customs has called for companies to tender for the Rapid Response Helicopter Service, which would be on standby at Gove in East Arnhem Land in the Northern Territory.

[SASless]

Now let me get this straight.....forget Terrorists, Pirates, and drug smugglers....but shooting the Ship's Cat is fair dinkum?

You Aussies are some rough company brother!

[Bat-Off]

Have you seen an Indonesian Sampan? Those things are hard-core! The meer sight of them causes RAN Frigates to change direction!:}

[Twin Head]

Port and Starboard Mini Guns on the 412 should do the job.:ugh:

[blade root]

...Port and Starboard Mini Guns on the 412 should do the job....

No-one left to fly the 412's.... if the rumours are right.

[jetflite]

One would think if Customs helicopters were armed it would help detour potential smugglers, illegal fishing etc. .
Not saying it would stop it!
but wouldn't it help to have that extra card there incase needed...wether it be for animals, pirates, smugglers. . . bit of extra force.

[itoldyouso]

Would not this operation, as described, simply be the discharge of firearms for feral animal control that every operator in australia has issued by CASA?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[crewguard]

Sounds like its a job for the our Huey gunships!! bring back the miniguns and rockets!! "clear in live" on the feral animal at 1000 yards!!:ok:

[helopat]

Now let me get this straight.....forget Terrorists, Pirates, and drug smugglers....but shooting the Ship's Cat is fair dinkum?

You Aussies are some rough company brother!

Dude, you slay me...ahhh, the s--t that they think up in Customs...not only do they want to shoot the ships CAT, but they want to do it from the air (cause, you know, those Indonesian cats can tear your ass off for you if you get in close enough on the ground for a high powered rifle shot).

What could possibly go wrong?

HP

[helopat]

One would think if Customs helicopters were armed it would help detour potential smugglers, illegal fishing etc. .
Not saying it would stop it!
but wouldn't it help to have that extra card there incase needed...wether it be for animals, pirates, smugglers. . . bit of extra force.

Jet,

Have you ever heard of ROE (rules of engagement)...truth of the matter is that if they had guns aboard they'd probably never use the bloody things ("Sir , I can't believe it, we've waved our guns at the people smugglers and they aren't turning back...what should we do?" "Take them out Smedley...no prisoners!")

Sheeesh!

Pollys just love this type of shiite

HP

[bloodycrow]

I happen to believe that it would be an excellent idea to follow the us customs model as far as employing a sharpshooter armed with a .50 cal sniper rifle to take out "illegal" cats. (bloody nuisance..they are!)

As a "liberationist" who in a previous life not that long ago, regularly hunted ferals with .22 subsonics, I am now all for the option of the one-shot kill.

I am guessing the only problem that could arise is having to prove that you had just shot at a cat!

[jetflite]

Jet,
Have you ever heard of ROE (rules of engagement)...truth of the matter is that if they had guns aboard they'd probably never use the bloody things ("Sir , I can't believe it, we've waved our guns at the people smugglers and they aren't turning back...what should we do?" "Take them out Smedley...no prisoners!")
Sheeesh!
Pollys just love this type of shiite
HP

Tis true. . good point. Although whether they use them or not, i feel it would be benificial to have that option. Yes i am familiar with ROE, hence the reason to have an Op's & Procedures manual. . stating ROE.
I think firing a few "shots across the bow" would be more efficient than a 412 "In pursuit" of a smuggler/fishing/immigrant vesel. . 3 warnings. STOP. STOP. STOP. then 3 warning shots. Then shot to imobilise. Then Call in the Customs or RAN frigates, now they are no longer in pursuit of a moving vesel. Seems logical.

JF

[B Sousa]

Warning Shots cause problems. If your going to shoot at something, you should have the mindset that you are going to kill it AND be able to convince a reasonable person (not a Government Official) that there was an extreme threat.
One example in the Caribbean when one of the Border patrol boats fired some warning shots at a smuggling boat and took off the head of the driver with a 50 cal. It got my vote, but it caused big problems.

[Lord Mount]

I think we get into a serious health and safety issue here.

If people are going to start shooting from helicopters it can only be a matter of time before the crafty little feline buggers get hold of their own weapons and start shooting back.

I have to think that in this situation, the odds are stacked firmly in favour of the cats. Small, agile, fast and able to take advantage of natural cover they would present a considerable challenge as a target. However a large low flying helicopter would be easy prey for the nasty little yellow eyed monsters to hit.

They are natural hunters and would have no second thoughts about bringing down a helicopter. It would be another 'Black Hawk Down' scenario. There would be blood, tears and recriminations. It would not be good.

IMHO you should leave the actual hunting to the ground troops and leave the helos to do what they are best at, insertions and cas-evacs.:ok:

[helopat]

Tis true. . good point. Although whether they use them or not, i feel it would be benificial to have that option. Yes i am familiar with ROE, hence the reason to have an Op's & Procedures manual. . stating ROE.
I think firing a few "shots across the bow" would be more efficient than a 412 "In pursuit" of a smuggler/fishing/immigrant vesel. . 3 warnings. STOP. STOP. STOP. then 3 warning shots. Then shot to imobilise. Then Call in the Customs or RAN frigates, now they are no longer in pursuit of a moving vesel. Seems logical.
JF

See, the problem becomes "can you immobilise a ship (or a ships cat) EFFECTIVELY with a .50 cal?"...I'm not so sure. I've been there when the navy has fired warning shots...these people are desparate and after crossing from someplace like Africa to Australia, they're not interested in stopping for anything or anybody. In addition, ROE is usually to try to get them to turn back...can't do that if the engine (or the captains head) is blown off...just full of 'bad press' potential.

The discussion of cats fighting back...priceless. I imagine a cat with a sniper rifle...several helicopters carved into the stock...moving stealthly through the bush. You're right,Lord Mount , they're merciless killing machines.

HP

[B Sousa]

"helos to do what they are best at, insertions and cas-evacs."

Lord Mount
I would suggest you talk to some of those former NVA just to the North of OZ land. They can tell you that when the Pilots showed how skinny the AH-1 really was, they learned just how bad Twin Minis and Flechette Rockets could be.

Personally I would love to see a country today that had enough balls to tell Smugglers to "Heave Too" and when they didnt just blow their butts out of the water.

[SASless]

Snipers might drive tacks....but nail driving is a delight to a Cobra pilot....granted 17 pounders can be a chuckle as well.

[Bat-Off]

On a lighter note, things like this are going to boost the rotary wing assett for customs, providing more jobs for those up and coming pilots :ok:

[jetflite]

See, the problem becomes "can you immobilise a ship EFFECTIVELY with a .50 cal?"...I'm not so sure. I've been there when the navy has fired warning shots...these people are desparate and after crossing from someplace like Africa to Australia, they're not interested in stopping for anything or anybody. In addition, ROE is usually to try to get them to turn back...can't do that if the engine (or the captains head) is blown off...just full of 'bad press' potential.

The discussion of cats fighting back...priceless. I imagine a cat with a sniper rifle...several helicopters carved into the stock...moving stealthly through the bush. You're right,Lord Mount , they're merciless killing machines.

HP

Good point; but you also have to look at it from every angle, ROE is to get them to turn back. so you wouldn't shoot out a vesel's engine if you want them to use it! You would "imobilise" them if you wanted them "imobilised".
Immigrants: You want them to use there engines!
Illegal Fishing: You want to arrest them, easier when they are not moving.
Smugglers: Once agian, arrested, easier when not moving.
It's obvious there are certain situations where a .50 would be useful and others where it isn't. . It's been done elsewhere and it's not a hard to draw up a CLEAR system about when it is and isn't appropriate. You don't always have to shoot to blow a head off, you don't always shoot to kill.

Clearly if they shot a warnig shot at the vesel and blew the guys head off....get someone who can shoot!

[SASless]

Whack them in the noggin....what more warning can they want? They cease the offensive behaviour immediately. Sorted!

[Steve76]

Bloodycrow knows a thing or two about shooting cats too...
:}

[gadgetguru]

...sharpshooter armed with a .50 cal sniper rifle...option of the one-shot kill

one near miss would suffice, kitty would be a furry debris as opposed to pink mist. ;)

[Aviat_Consulting]

Steve 76,

IF I remember correctly Mr Crow did other things to cats.

[bloodycrow]

now..now..AC lets just stick to the topic of shoot'n em

[helopat]

As if it's not dangerous enough flying in a whirling mass of spare parts in formation, now theres a possibility of a job where angry, adolescent cats with sniper rifles shoot at us...not happy, Jan.

HP

[PPRuNeUser0212]

If our Navy boys aren't allowed to put a nice little 50 cal round through an illegal fishing boat, what chance have the customs whallas got. It is very un PC to shoot the indon mob, apparently

[Reefdog]

"Customs officers would only be able to fire at feral animals that come onto mainland Australia from illegal fishing vessels, a Customs spokesman said."

The Australian newspaper is abit behind in their story..Like at least 7 years...
they have been doing feral animal culls and disease sampling in northern australia for years in the L4..

This involved the culling and testing of blood samples from Deer, Pigs, goats
and feral cattle in the NPA

To you guys that think they are going to shoot up humans,,GET a grip on it.
This is Australia we are talking about not Angola or somalia or where ever...

It always makes me laugh..when someone posts a post with GUNS an Helicopters in it,,ALL the wannabees come out of the closet... If you want to play with machines and guns go somewhere and do it, just dont talk about it. There are places you can go to do this stuff if you really want too

To the few that have actually had the bullets wizzing through the rotors or more than likely the tail boom/rotor, you have my respect

work beckons