Management

[cpdude]

I fear here we go again. Big profits, strong market, great operation but very little loyalty to the workforce.

When integrity and people rate higher than pay and profits, everyone profits!:ok:

[Cumguzzler]

Amen!!!!!!!!!

[Arfur Dent]

And a DFO who willingly disappoints and blatantly fails the children of his senior colleagues by retreating on a promise made to young Adelaide instructors and then not having the courage to go down to a graduation and face them. What's the problem? Scared of a mutiny? Trying to save a few dollars? Anything goes now. The aircrew body are not represented by this weak behaviour. Money is everything. Profit is God.
Where do these people come from who pretend to manage us?

[CXpletive]

Has to be said though, not many of those Senior Colleagues (EDIT: referred to in the previous post - not in general!) have chosen to remain members of the Association we choose to represent us.... Nice to see the next generation (EDIT: of CX Captains children) signing up though. Strange irony that the sons are now suffering the consequence of their fathers chosing not to protect their own contracts. Never mind, saved a few dollars.

[spleener]

CXpletive: Yes, I'll consider that that's probably a fair comment from where you're coming from, so I won't bite.

Equally, many of us are fully committed members of the CPU. I hope that you can understand that we have our moral reasons for that position and situation.

To stay on topic; the root cause can be traced back to the OP's opening statement. OMG!!! Have I really agreed with cpdude????:{:{

[cxorcist]

CXpletive, your statement about the "sins of their fathers" has biblical roots. I think the comment is bang on. Save it, Skillet...

Spleener, the CPU excuse is just tired at this stage of the game. Get with the program already! The 49er saga is almost over. Perhaps you can rejoin once the final judgment is rendered. I understand being upset by the AOA's response to the 49er events, but why send your kid to work for the company which perpetrated the 49er crimes in the first place? In that light, the 49er/CPU excuse for non-membership appears a flimsy excuse to save a few dollars and ride the backs of your colleagues. I bet you owe back dues and don't want to pony up. WEAK!!!

CXorcist

[fly123456]

Sons of pilots or not, they are CX pilots (or will soon be). And should they wish to join the union, we should be proud of defending their rights as well.
The way they were treated is just not fair.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Rumour has it that CX (mis) management are studying the attached video intensely.

It shows that

1. Aircraft CAN fly by themselves, and

2. Possibility of HUGE fuel savings is out there.

In typical CX fashion, the objective is achieved, but the consequences will be studied at a later time.

Accounts and purchasing are excited at the possibilities and several more "B" and "C" level managers have been employed to form a working group who will report to the CE in due course.

If pilots can be eliminated completely, the potential bonus for the board is enormous, and the shareholders can be paid an impressive dividend.

The airports management is also thrilled at the elimination of the third runway issue.

Clearly, a win-win for all concerned.

It?s Impressive What Strong Winds Can Cause - Izismile.com (http://izismile.com/2011/11/16/its_impressive_what_strong_winds_can_cause.html)

[CYRILJGROOVE]

maybe you would care to elaborate on how you have protected your contract and cared for the future generations of pilots following in your footsteps. Did you join on B scale therefore undermining those ahead of you and yourself in the long term? Did you take an out of seniority freighter command and if not what did you do about those colleagues whom jumped over you? What did you do about all the DEC Oasis commander who by passed the seniority list and jumped over you? What are you doing about the current C scale on offer?

just curious if you might be guilty of the same sins you accuse others of!

[cxorcist]

Cyril,

I'm guessing CXpletive is in the AOA and pays dues. If we all did that, we would see a lot less of the abuses you referenced. It is pretty simple math really. You who quit the AOA, work your training jobs, and send your kids into the cadet program have basically sided with the company. So compared to those, CXpletive is doing pretty well just being a member. Members are the ones who got the payraises of this and next year. Not you nonmembers.

Enjoy your eight day off training roster...

CXorcist

[yokebearer]

One of the funniest moments of my time in CX was when an A scale ( well ex A scale now ) training captain told me how fantastically happy he is that his son got into the cadet scheme!!

Most of them have completely lost touch with reality. Most senior captains who never did time as an SO, never made less than FO salary and never lived in anything smaller than 2000 sg ft are utterly incapable of even imagining the lifestyle sacrifices new joiners are/have been making.

Quite interesting is the psychological research that show how type A personalities - i.e. the type CX hires - have by far the most narcissistic personalities and struggle with things like empathy and altruism.

We are not all that different from our managers....

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Sorry pal wrong on both assumptions, been paying full union subs for over 30 years, two unions concurrently for twenty years, and not in training. Paid all levies asked by the AOA. My point is just what has CXexpletive done to protect his contract vs the so called sins of others?

[main_dog]

Quite interesting is the psychological research that show how type A personalities - i.e. the type CX hires - have by far the most narcissistic personalities and struggle with things like empathy and altruism.

We are not all that different from our managers....

OUCH! That hurts. :ouch:

Probably because in many cases it's not far from the truth... :(

[geh065]

One of the funniest moments of my time in CX was when an A scale ( well ex A scale now ) training captain told me how fantastically happy he is that his son got into the cadet scheme!!

Most of them have completely lost touch with reality. Most senior captains who never did time as an SO, never made less than FO salary and never lived in anything smaller than 2000 sg ft are utterly incapable of even imagining the lifestyle sacrifices new joiners are/have been making.

I know we all say these types of things but if you love flying it is still a great job. Don't they say do what you love and you will never work a day in your life? Perhaps some people still believe in that.

In chatting to people who want to start flying I always find myself starting to try and turn them against it before I suddenly ask myself what would be a better job to recommend? I honestly cannot think of one unless of course you don't mind working 9-6, 5+ days a week in a cubicle....in which case yes there are plenty of better jobs than flying.

[yokebearer]

What you say is true - but it would be nice if we could 'live the dream ' and 'never work a day' and still make a decent standard of living....like the generation before us did.

This all harks back to the fact that the 'greatest generation' ( look it up ) i.e. people who fought WW2 and then created the immense wealth and growth in the 50's and 60's set it all up for their children ( the baby boomers / A scalers ) who then proceeded to plunder at will.
Leaving us - (the 'gen X-ers'/ B scalers if you will) with less every day and their debts to pay. And our children - (the gen Y-ers' or in this case the International cadets ) with even less....

So it seems what is happening in CX is pretty much exactly what is happening all over the western world today. The rich get richer. The middle class gets destroyed.

[cxorcist]

Cyril,

I was more labeling your generation than you specifically. If what you write is true, you are certainly an anomaly amongst A scalers. Good on you for sticking by the AOA and the 49ers.

Yoke,

What you write about is similar to a thesis I have had for a few years now. The "greatest generation" (WW2) has given way to the "greediest generation" (baby boomers). They grew up on free love, cheap dope, and peace rallies. When they finally outgrew all that they became the bankers and politicians we all suffer under today. They privatize profits and socialize losses. They devise massive public retirement and medical plans with no taxation to pay for them. So they pass their expenses as a debt burden for future generations. They make profits at the expense of middle class jobs, the very jobs their children are fighting to get/keep. I could go on and on, but in sum the boomers want to "have their cake and eat it too". The problem is that they cannot afford the cake or the frosting. So we will be paying for that, but not because we choose to. We will pay because the proletariat says we must. Rant over.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

The truth of the matter is that many of the posters here make assumptions and statements that are simply erroneous. How exactly did the previous generation fail to protect their contracts and plunder everything. I ask again, what has the new generation done which has been any different from the previous generations?

I often wonder if the posters here are really concerned about the new I cadet conditions from the point of view of the new cadets perspective, or could it be that they are acutely aware that any new conditions that are less than the existing group enjoys is at jeopardy for themselves. Just maybe they realise that when they themselves undercut A scales all those years ago that was in fact the beginning of the end for themselves, but hey never let fact get in the way of a way to deflect where the real blame lays and shoot of a few hand grenades at those they adversely affected.

One only needs to look at the seniority list to see all of the out of order commands which your own generation fell over themselves to take at reduced conditions, to realize that considerable blame for our collective predicament of being attacked also lies firmly on their shoulders as well.......or could it just be that the root cause of it all lies entirely somewhere else......if you, want to generalize !!

Oh one more thing, CXorsist you said you where certain I was in the minority of my generation whom are AOA MEMBERS , well I just checked both seniority and membership lists and out of 5 either side of me , 9 out of 11 pilots are members of the AOA and of those 2 non members, 1 is in management, so as usual, you are wrong again my friend. Over two decades of membership for each of them.....I think older generation have done as much as you if not more to try and attempt to protect their contracts from those who have attacked or undermined them from all directions.

[cxorcist]

Cyril,

Why stop at five? Let's take 20 or 40 either side of you. In fact, let's look at all the (ex-)A scalers and see how many members we have. My experience is only anecdotal, but nearly all the A scalers I have flown with are no longer members. I wish I travelled in your circle more often.

However, even if you are right and most A scalers have stood by the association, where is the leadership? Most have been too busy getting theirs to donate anything more than 1% to the association. That is what I would call a generational problem. You guys should be leading the charge, but most of you are quite content to sit back and criticize the B scale leadership.

[raven11]

I too am an A scaler who's been a member for over two decades.

Cxorcist, are you suggesting that non-A scalers have a 100% membership rate???

Cyril is correct, your demographic accepting the reduced conditions offered in the B scale, or whatever sub-contract was offered, allowed the Company to impose a reduction of conditions on the pilots working at Cathay at the time you joined; as well, your demographic never hesitated, not for one second, to jump over their own colleagues to take an early command...

Therefore, I am finding your chutzpa, and self-moralizing, a bit rich....

So can we cut the A scale bashing crap.....we who have been here long enough to remember, and who have fought the imposition of new contracts and conditions to the best of our abilities, given the limitations of modern labor laws in Hong Kong, those of us who have endured one cut after another, deserve better than that!

For goodness sake, we are supposed to be on the same side!

[cxorcist]

Raven,

You are simply wrong. It is not the responsibility of NJers to stop contract reductions. It is the responsibility of those already employed. It started with A scalers and the "acceptance" of B scales. It continued with ASL, F, C, and Icadets. Again, lack of A scale leadership is the key. You guys failed to stop B scale. Then what, brand new B scalers were supposed to stop ASL and F scale? Nope, that is yours too. Get real, the game was lost when you allowed any differences in the contract under which your colleagues would be employed. To blame B scalers or anyone else for the degradation of conditions is simply a deflection of responsibility and you know it.

That said, you are right. We are on the same side, and we need to find a way past our grotesque history.

A bit rich? Perhaps, but let's just not forget how it all started.

[Plover]

I am an ex A scale Captain, now B scale and have been a member of the AOA since joining CX almost 28 years ago. The rot started with pilots accepting B scale. Slippery slide ever since.

[CXpletive]

Chronic thread drift here .... Edited my original post for clarity and sensitiviities. Hope it no longer offends any specific demographic.

There is a common foe here .... and they certainly aren't on A, B, C or C minus scales.

[Capt Toss Parker]

Was A-Scale ... Now B-Scale ... hope to extend to 75 on the new C-Scale but will always maintain my FIGJAM scale :ok:

[The Messiah]

The rot started with pilots accepting B scale. Slippery slide ever since.
That's some strange logic trying to put the blame on people that weren't even working for the company for the reduction in your own conditions. I've heard it said that the "sign or be fired" pay cut for A-scale of the 90's was when it started of which about 20 guys refused to sign over and guess what? They were never fired. So that's 20 guys with a backbone out of how many of you were there?

[Cpt. Underpants]

Messiah

You're mixing up two separate events.

The first, in 1995 - was not a "sign or be fired" ultimatum. What it DID threaten (and was true it's word, by the way) that if the officer chose not to sign, there would be no bases, salary increases or type changes for the individual. At that time, there were 18 who chose not to sign. Many of the 18 names reappeared on another list, in 2001.

Without getting long winded about the contract, it was raising the overtime threshold and reducing overtime rates. As it was a deterioration in CoS, it was unenforcable - hence the "option".

The second event, in 1999, was an ultimatum - and ALL eventually signed. It was a nominal "improvement", so the threat could be made. CX management, frustrated after years of contractual impasse, wanted an end to industrial bickering that defined KB's tenure, and presented (not without warning) an improved package - blessed by the HKSAR labour department.

Why the AOA chose to dispute the package was because it wasn't a negotiated deal. The enforcement led to the industrial action it tried to avoid, which led to the disgraceful 49'ers sacking, and all that has followed.

People in glass houses...

[The Messiah]

The first, in 1995 - was not a "sign or be fired" ultimatum. What it DID threaten (and was true it's word, by the way) that if the officer chose not to sign, there would be no bases, salary increases or type changes for the individual. At that time, there were 18 who chose not to sign. Many of the 18 names reappeared on another list, in 2001.
So in '95 the entire pilot body had an opportunity to stand up against a deterioration in CoS, which was unenforceable - hence the "option", yet only 18 had the gonads for the fight yet the start of the slippery slope was somehow the acceptance of B scale by pilots with families who were all taking large pay increases to sign onto it? No wonder we are where we are.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Messiah

What's been left out is the relationship that existed between the pilot body (ably represented by "video rental club") and CX management.

We numbered about 600 or 700 aircrew (including engineers), we knew each other, we knew the managers, and "negotiations" were carried out in the Cathay Club in the corner, over a few ales.

What hit us in '95 was like a sledgehammer to the side to the head. Complete betrayal, akin to finding your beloved is a transsexual cross dresser(!) or a secret ultimate fighter. Completely out of character, so 180° out we didn't know what to do. I called the AOA for guidance and was told that "most were accepting" the deal. "Be guided accordingly".

With the benefit of hindsight, of course we shouldn't have signed, but put yourself in our shoes for a minute. We were negotiating in good faith, we were patting each other on the back in the corridors, rubbing shoulders in the Marina, trusted and empowered officers of the realm...the real deal.

Then the great betrayal. What would you have done? Really? You'd have done what 682/700 did, and sign...

Rumor has it that our utter collapse was met with incredulity and disbelief and they partied on the 10/F for weeks, the bastards.

[cxorcist]

Undies,

So they introduced the B scale in '93-94 & ASL a couple years later, and you guys were surprised in '96 and '99. Wow, you A scalers get a lot more credit for smarts than you deserve!

[Cpt. Underpants]

Who ever credited "A" scalers with being smart?

We're "drivers, airframe", just like every other pilot who has ever joined CX - up to the halfwits who sign on to the iCadet scheme (who have to be mentally deficient in some way).

Yes, we joined a different company, yes, we were a lot more experienced and yes, it was an old boys club, but "smart"? That's a stretch.

[cxslave]

Thank god you're back Toss. We've all missed ya

[Steve the Pirate]

Wow, you A scalers get a lot more credit for smarts than you deserve


A thread that started out questioning management values (an oxymoron some might argue) has degenerated into an A vs B vs C slanging match. Is it any wonder we're where we find ourselves today?

[yep_ok_whatever]

A thread that started out questioning management values (an oxymoron some might argue) has degenerated into an A vs B vs C slanging match. Is it any wonder we're where we find ourselves today? Sorry, but you missed out cadets and icadets.:rolleyes:

That's some strange logic trying to put the blame on people that weren't even working for the company for the reduction in your own conditions. I've heard it said that the "sign or be fired" pay cut for A-scale of the 90's was when it started of which about 20 guys refused to sign over and guess what? They were never fired. So that's 20 guys with a backbone out of how many of you were there? :D

I like to think that what Messiah says should ring true.

yet only 18 had the gonads for the fight yet the start of the slippery slope was somehow the acceptance of B scale by pilots with families who were all taking large pay increases to sign onto it? No wonder we are where we are. Instead of blaming A, B, C scalers and the new cadets. Lets realise instead, that everyone is spineless EXCEPT the 18 with gonads.:ok:

[crewsunite]

Are they still working in CX, if so on what contracts?

Tell us more..

[raven11]

Cxorcist.....

And by inference, you are the intelligent one?

Give us the benefit of your intellectual prowess....tell us what have you done to improve our lot? Have you ever put ever put your job where your mouth is? Participated in any industrial campaigns lately? Watched 50 of your friends get fired because of your involved in an industrial dispute?

You haven't earned the right to criticize or throw stones.....but throw them you do.....nice guy.

[cxorcist]

Raven,

As a matter of fact, I do consider myself intelligent. Is that is excessively arrogant to you coming from a lowly B scaler? More importantly however, I am principled and live life with conviction. This seems to be the area A scalers were/are lacking.

It does not take intelligence to unite when being attacked, just gumption and common sense. JW and the committee made a few ballsy calls, and you guys went running for cover. Those are the facts. As a group, you did not stand behind the AOA or the 49ers. Instead, everyone got scared and the wheels of CX aircraft kept turning. WEAK!!! At least call in unfit due stress. For ****'s sake! Get a doctor's note if you needed to CYA.

Unless you have served honorably on the committee, I have done more than you for "improving our lot". I have not had the opportunity to put my job in the line, but I believe I would not faulter if it was required. I was fully prepared to enter rigid CC one year ago if asked. I voted for both motions last year and preferred this pilot group be tested right away. Unfortunately, the membership chose the more conservative option. That said, I must admit that I am insure how we would have performed as a group if the AOA had asked.

That is where the utter failure of effective A scale leadership (and followership) during the 90s and early 00s rears its ugly head. No matter how united the rest of the pilot group may be, we all know there are several hundred pilot at the top of the list whom have failed in the past and are clearly only interested in protecting themselves into retirement (Número Crunchero being the only exception I have met).

With respect to being a "nice guy", I have every confidence you would enjoy flying with me if you haven't already. Unless of course, you started spewing all this weak defense of the A scaler garbage. You guys pooched it. We know it. You know it. Why not just learn from it and do better next time? Because there will be a next time. I just hope you guys are gone when it happens...

[scavengepump]

cxorcist,

Well done that man!:ok:

You have hit the nail on the head with regards the A scale lethargy, inactivity and general 'keep our heads down' gutlessness over the years. There are the very very occasional exception but in general, true to a man.

Industrially, the A scale group are an embarrassment :yuk:

[CYRILJGROOVE]

CXorsist

I'm betting you are not as smart and ballsy as you think you are, I am still waiting for you to tell us just what you have done to improve your and you colleagues lot over the years apart from voting for a couple of motions Mr tough guy. You seem so ignorant I bet you have never heard of WOE, MSS and a entire range of other actions been taken over the years. Oh yes I better mention, yes sport I and many others been on strike long term as well...have you?? bet not. You are cluesless as to what road, the hardships, the people you slag off about have taken to be employed by CX.

I reckon there is a good chance you have had a very comfortable upbringing, never had to work hard for any thing, your flying paid for by Daddy or the military.....took a job with CX..... felt bad about taking B scale and had to deflect the blame to suppress your guilt. You go to work all bitter and twisted and are a pain in the arse to sit next to and are a generally a whiner. You are a glass half empty guy and envious of what others have earnt and you want it without the hard yards or years of service.

You need to take a long hard look at your chosen airline and decide wether to continue as you are one screwed up individual with a gigantic chip on you shoulder which is going to destroy you or way or another if you don't let go of you warped sense of justice.

You actually have a good job , why don't you try to enjoy it and life one day!!

[Oval3Holer]

CyrilJ,

Where do you get your inspiration to attack cxorcist like that? What you wrote following what he wrote is a non sequitur.

What else can he DO except for vote for a couple of motions? The AOA never has had the bal*s to do anything except vote. If you call MSS something you've never walked a picket line.

The bottom line, though, is that in Hong Kong, we as employees have no power. The courts and the company are in bed and as soon as we all realize that this is a contract job, renewable every six months, the better we will all be.

The company just loves it when we go at each other like this. Why do you think they agreed to split Canada and Australia into different unions despite it appearing to be more costly? Divide and conquer.

It is, and will always be, every man and woman for him or herself.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

where do I get my inspiration? from reading his constant A scale dribble , that's where. JUST IN THIS THREAD ALONE HIS COMMENTS RE A SCALE ARE

A scalers unprincipled, utter failure of A scale leadership, interested only in protecting themselves, spewing up a weak defence of A scaler garbage, hope you guys are gone, sins of their fathers have biblical roots, I bet you owe back dues, you A scalers who quit the AOA, greediest generations, have your cake and eat it too... enjoy your 8 day training roster

do I need to go on......the man is not getting free pot shots at my generation without some return fire

Cyril
kaboom

[Steve the Pirate]

The inference in many of these posts is that had the A scalers stood up and been counted then many of the situations in which we've found ourselves over the past few years would have been averted. Using the same logic then, if all the current members chose to "pick up a weapon and stand at post" (as Nathan Jessop would say) then the current situation with iCadets and so forth would be averted and we'd go from strength to strength.

I seem to recall that JW and ND were both strong leaders and A scalers. The majority of the Association are now B scalers so should we not look to that majority for the sort of leadership that those such as cxorcist are espousing?

STP

[VR-HFX]

Steve

Spot on...always easy to re-write history and motives from a different generation.

Capt Toss

May be time to retreat below the MSA again...I saw your alter ego with a baseball bat the other day and he is getting warm, very warm:}

[Kitsune]

What people posting here conveniently forget is this:

GC was the DFO. The company was ALREADY recruiting B Scale officers BEFORE the pay deal was put to the committee. GC informed the committee that nothing in our terms of service, or in Hong Kong legislation, could prevent the company recruiting officers on whatever terms and conditions it felt like. When the committee told him that noone would come to CX on such derisory terms he produced a list of guys who had already accepted B scale terms and were coming to CX, families and all. Those are the facts, if you were on the committee or pilot body at the time, would you have stuck your neck out for a bunch of guys who had ALREADY ACCEPTED the terms that you would be fighting against? :cool:

[raven11]

Cyral, Steve, VR-HFX, Kitsune, and others, well said gents....

Cxorcist...you said "everyone got scared and the wheels of CX aircraft kept turning. WEAK!!! At least call in unfit due stress. For ****'s sake! Get a doctor's note if you needed to CYA."

Well, sonny, all I can say is.....been there done that.

In fact, oh insightful one, go ahead and ask the person you praised in your last post about that particular incident.....if he is as close to you as you claim, you may decide to curb your insults. That person, a friend of mine, and a first rate individual, may be just the person to try and bring you up to speed on what it was like living through that incident.

Following that incident, I watched as 50 of my friends and colleagues got fired because of the industrial actions I took part in.

There were B scalers heavily involved in the industrial campaigns of the late 90's, it was a combined A scale and B scale effort....a "team" effort. Is team effort a concept you're familiar with...I think not?

Where were you during those industrial efforts that you now so shamefully denigrate???? Oh, that's right....YOU WEREN'T THERE!

You claim to be intelligent, principled, and a man of conviction (wow...all in one sentence), yet you have no problem hurling unprincipled slurs.....

I can't help but take it personally when johnny-come-lately chest thumpers like you criticize and throw stones at our efforts while having nothing, absolutely nothing, to offer on how your efforts have shaped Company policy since your tumultuous arrival on the scene.

The idea that you were on an AOA committee is enough to make me question why I continue to pay dues. As intelligent and savvy as you claim to be, you can't even recognize that we are supposed to be on the same side. You find it easier to hurl insults at members of your own team instead of recognizing who the true opponents are. How brave you are......

Cxorcist, try some humility, your arrogance is shameful.

[Steve the Pirate]

Many of us know who was the last person hired on the A scale and, likewise, those who were the first to be hired on the B scale. Had I been among the first to have my promised Conditions of Service changed would I have been outraged? Absolutely. Would I have still joined? More than likely. Would I have borne a grudge or simply accepted the new reality? Hypothetical, so I don't really know but I can guess.

All this happened 17 years ago and we are still blaming each other for the fallout. You have to admire the exquisite irony - reduce Terms and Conditions and then sit back and watch the workforce systematically destroy their collective bargaining position at the same time as reducing labour costs. A stroke of genius some might say.

What's happening now with the iCadets and what happened with the introduction of B scale is no different. The iCadets will eventually end up blaming everyone else for a decision they themselves took, hopefully having weighed up the pros and cons. When that happens, people such as cxorcist will be back on their soapboxes saying there was little that the then membership could have done to prevent the imposition of "C scales" and that the iCadets have no-one to blame but themselves.

They know us only too well and prey on our fragile collective ego.

STP

[sorvad]

very well said STP

[CYRILJGROOVE]

I have not seen it all, but I have seen a lot over the years including several characters like CXorsist, bullies by nature , big talkers, chest beaters and two faced back stabbers, and you know what....whilst we were walking the picket line years ago, literally having bricks thrown at us (yes full size bricks into a crowd) ....people like CXorsist after having the blowtorch applied to their lily livered yellow belly ran back to work falling over themselves to get in the early s*cab line, leaving the vast majority of us without jobs. We don't need his ill informed swipes and notions about our character make up. If he wants to get in the ring a throw punches....expect a bloody nose because I for one will fight back stooping to his level, to make his thick brain comprehend if I see the need to make the point.

He is banging on in another thread about naming and shaming crew working on G days and there is not even a motion in the wind for that and go course the GC of today would scotch that suggestion in its tracks as it is run by hard working savvy volunteers. We all understand the ramifications of G day working but until it is voted on it is just dribble to suggest naming and shaming.

Raven I agree CXorsist is a bad ad for the AOA and probably does a lot of negative press for our Association but another thing I have learnt over the journey is for every one of his ilk, there are hundreds of quality guys in our association worth rallying around and to continue to pay our dues and hold our head high that for our ENTIRE career we have been principled even thought circumstances have not always gone how we would have liked. Johhny come lately folks like CXorsist are not worthy of causing any one to leave the AOA because I doubt if he is in for the long haul anyhow!.

[cxorcist]

Gents,

This will be my last post on this thread. Your emotional replies contain so little in terms of actual substance that I will not justify most of them with a response. Clearly, many of you carry a lot a guilt about how you have conducted yourselves in the past. As you should... However, my intentions were not to ruffle feathers, but to clarify why our pilot group is the sad state that it is today. I wish A scalers could accept their part in our failures. Not to be repetitive but the shortcomings of A scale leader- and follower-ship are off the charts and set the horrible precedence by which so many of our lesser employed colleagues follow today.

Kitsune, we (you guys) should have fought the B scale to preserve the A scale, not for those whom had already joined on B. Similarly, STP, we absolutely should be fighting the iCadet for our own sake right now, not for the iCadets!!! We should all be employed on the same terms now, then, and forever. Different terms divide us irreparably. Just notice how we refer to each other... A, B, C, F, etc.

Raven, you are right. We are all on the same team. We should treat each other like teammates and expect high standards of quality and excellence from each other. Part of that is accountability. I do not think most of you have taken any responsibility for what happened under your watch. That's unacceptable. Similarly, we are experiencing a leadership failure with respect to the iCadet program. We will be to blame for our own future degradation because of this. We are far too worried about various TUs and are missing the "gorilla" walking through the middle of the congo line.

Also, I never wrote that the NC was a close friend. I wrote that he is the only A scaler I have ever observed caring about those on lesser payscales. I'm sure there are others. Perhaps you, Raven, are one of them? If so, may I ask what you have done?

Oval, I disagree that this is a contract job. If we could unify as a pilot group, we would be treated as a collective. Since we don't, we get what we have now. In a sense, it is the old chicken and the egg argument. Which came first? They tried on dividing the group, and we did not rise to the occasion. So we continue to be treated as a fractured group. We are all to blame for this. Not Hong Kong labour law. That too is a weak excuse. But need I remind you where and when this all started. It is not personal, it's a fact. Sorry guys. I wish it weren't so.

To those of you who have been offended by my words, I apologize. Perhaps wrongly, I feel that industrial matters are like any other portion of our profession. As professionals, we should examine our mistakes, admit to them, and do what we can to correct them. I do not think A scalers have adequately done that. Many are in denial. Others are deflecting blame. Some just don't care.

OK, off the "soapbox". Fire away boys! Let's see if you can mix any substance with all your emotion...

[stillalbatross]

At the end of the day everyone does whats best for them and to hell with everyone else. It's human nature. As a wise A scaler told me, the only way to have a cohesive contract is to have no variables. Everyone is based in Hong Kong, no-one does W patterns, no one flys on G Days, no one does an "early" command getting F/O pay for the privilege. Everyone is on the same housing, no fixed or floating option.

This conversation is about 25 years too late.

[Steve the Pirate]

cxorcist, for all of your sanctimonious, self-aggrandising claims of ownership of the moral high ground in this argument you do have a point. However, I'm curious as to what you would have done had you found yourself in the same position as the A scalers did in 93/94. Indeed, I'm curious as to what YOU are doing NOW to stand against the imposition of the reduced conditions on the so-called iCadets and, by implication, the current pilot body. I don't think the "I'm alright Jack" mentality is restricted to those who you accuse of lacking in leadership qualities. Reading this forum it would seem that many of our current pilots, rather than stating that they will be doing everything in their power to prevent the imposition of the new Terms and Conditions, are ridiculing new-joiners publicly for their apparent lack of judgement in accepting.

Still I can only guess what the answers to the above questions would be because you say:

More importantly however, I am principled and live life with conviction.and having declared your last post to be your final one on this thread I am fully aware that such a principled person will be unable to respond. Sad really as I was looking forward to receiving the benefit of your "thesis" on leadership.

STP