Blue on Blue in Afghanistan

[Two's in]

NATO warplanes kill Canadian soldiers

September 5, 2006 - 12:49AM

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/nato-warplanes-kill-canadian-soldiers/2006/09/05/1157222077828.html

NATO warplanes strafed their own forces yesterday during a battle with insurgents, killing one Canadian soldier and seriously wounding five others during an anti-Taliban operation that has reportedly killed 200 militants in southern Afghanistan.

A British soldier attached to NATO was also killed in a Kabul suicide bombing, which left another four Afghans dead today, NATO and Afghan officials said.

Sixteen suspected Taliban militants and five Afghan police died in separate Afghan violence.

The intense fighting comes amid Afghanistan's deadliest spate of violence since US-led forces toppled the hard-line Taliban regime for hosting al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden after the September 11, 2001 attacks.

NATO said the friendly fire incident occurred during a major NATO-led anti-Taliban operation in Kandahar province's Panjwayi district after ground troops requested air support.

Two NATO aircraft "regrettably engaged friendly forces during a strafing run, using cannons," the statement said.

One Canadian soldier was killed, said NATO spokesman Major Scott Lundy, while five were seriously wounded and evacuated out of Afghanistan to an undisclosed location for medical treatment. An investigation into the incident has been launched.

"It is particularly distressing to us all when, despite the care and precautions that are always applied, a tragedy like this happens," said NATO commander Lieutenant General David Richards.

On Sunday, four Canadian soldiers were killed and seven wounded during Operation Medusa, which is aiming to drive a large group of Taliban militants from Panjwayi, which lies about 25 kilometres west of the main southern city of Kandahar.

Some 32 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002.

In Kabul, a suicide car bomber in a four-wheel drive exploded alongside a British convoy, killing one soldier and seriously wounding another, the British Ministry of Defence said.

Another four Afghan civilians were killed, while at least two other NATO soldiers and seven Afghans were wounded in the blast on the Kabul-Jalalabad road, NATO and Afghan officials said.

The bomber driving the four-wheel drive also died, Afghan police said.

Thirty-seven British personnel have been killed in Afghanistan since operations began in 2001 - 28 of them in the past four months.

NATO reported that more than 200 Taliban fighters had died in the first two days of Operation Medusa, that began on Saturday.

The Afghan Defence Ministry, however, only reported 89 militants were killed. Some 80 other suspected Taliban were arrested by Afghan police and a further 180 fled, NATO said.

The casualty counts - which if confirmed represent one of the deadliest combat actions since US-led forces ousted the Taliban regime five years ago - could not be independently verified.

Authorities have barred citizens from travelling on all but the main road running through this part of Kandahar province, and reporters could not reach the battlefield.

A NATO statement said its figure was derived from "surveillance and reconnaissance assets operating in Panjwayi and Zhari districts" and information from Afghan officials and citizens.

On Sunday, an Associated Press reporter who travelled to the district's Pashmul area saw warplanes drop five bombs within about 20 minutes on orchards where Taliban fighters were believed to be hiding. Booming explosions echoed above the grape and pomegranate fields and kicked up clouds of dust.

NATO said there were no reports of civilian casualties, despite the heavy fire. Afghan Defence Ministry spokesman General Zahir Azimi, however, said there were a number of civilian casualties.

NATO spokesman Major Scott Lundy said the NATO and Afghan forces had gained ground and had disrupted the militants' command and control, causing confusion among the fighters.

The weekend's fatalities increased the total of foreign troops killed in Afghanistan so far this year beyond the 130 who died during all of 2005 - an indication of the escalation in violence sparked by an upsurge in Taliban attacks.

AP

[ALTSEL]

Is it not time to to give them the key's back, pack up and come home? Do we never learn from history? Tell me why not. They kicked us out 75 years ago, the Russians only in the eighties and eventually that Muppet Blair will also buckle. Leave them with it.

[BN Boy]

From the CBC webpage:

"Two U.S. fighter jets mistakenly fired on a Canadian platoon taking part in a massive anti-Taliban operation west of Kandahar on Monday, killing one soldier and injuring dozens of others. more »
September 4, 2006 | 12:20 PM EDT
Related: 4 Canadians killed, 9 injured in Afghan battle"

I recall back in 2002 a Yankee jet dropped a bomb on the Princess Patricia's boys near Kabul, killing 4 and seriously injuring 8.

Now I know that Fratricide incidents are quite rare, but Uncle Sam's boys are getting quite the rep for assisting in the Tali's efforts!

My thoughts go out to the families of the Soldiers involved.

[QFIhawkman]

Now I know that Fratricide incidents are quite rare, but Uncle Sam's boys are getting quite the rep for assisting in the Tali's efforts!

My thoughts go out to the families of the Soldiers involved.

Fractricide incidents are indeed rare thankfully BN. Isn't it amazing though, when you look at each incident, who fired the shots?

I spoke with a USMC pilot two years ago, and when this subject came up, he told me it was because "We (the US) fire first and ask questions later."
He intimated that this was a good thing I might add.
I've lost count of the video clips I've seen over the last couple of years where some vehicle / bridge / building etc gets splashed, accompanied by a soundtrack of shouted "F*ck yeahs", "God damns" and general whooping and screaming.

Thinking back to my sorties in Iraq 1, I won't say I was calm about the whole thing (far from it) but none of those "gung ho" shouts for one minute entered my head.
It just makes me wonder about the difference in mentality between the US and the UK when it comes to taking another life.

Like BN boy, my thoughts are with the Canadian soldiers' families.

[BN Boy]

Hawkman, Well said.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if in the ensuing investigation the pilot in question turns out to be ANG. 'Yes I'm a banker by trade...did I also mention that I fly Warthogs on Sundays? Yeah, I was just growing so tired of my local golf course. So, I got this new shotgun, wanna go shoot some 'possums in the backyard?...YEE HA!'

[SASless]

It just makes me wonder about the difference in mentality between the US and the UK when it comes to taking another life.


Perhaps we see destruction of the enemy as being the mission and when successful we take pride in our work.

BN Boy...any Territorials in Iraq or Afghanistan? Would you say the same about them?


Perhaps we should wait till the investigation is done and see what it reports about the causes before we pass judgement. Effective communication between same nation forces is difficult enough....throw in different national forces and there is one more factor that can adversely affect "effective" communication.

Just through sheer numbers of aircraft committed the US forces should be the leading perpetrator of these events just out of pure statistical odds.

The earlier incident should have ended with some pilots going to jail....the wingman called it correctly when he suggested the Lead might have called it wrong immediately after it happened....while still airborne leaving the target.

When the two Blackhawks got shot down.....I would have loved to see that Colonel swinging from a very large Oak Tree.

I have been around a bit of two way rifle range fun and games and know that despite the very best of efforts some rounds will inevitably go astray for any number of reasons.

Read "Roberts Ridge" by MacPherson for an account of how confusing fast close quarters combat can be. Perhaps the flow of information or the lack of it is the root cause behind the latest incident.

[QFIhawkman]

Perhaps we should wait till the investigation is done and see what it reports about the causes before we pass judgement. Effective communication between same nation forces is difficult enough....throw in different national forces and there is one more factor that can adversely affect "effective" communication.

Just through sheer numbers of aircraft committed the US forces should be the leading perpetrator of these events just out of pure statistical odds.


SASless, you are of course right to point out that we MAY be jumping the gun a little, and until the facts are known we may be straying into speculation here. Fair point.
Communication is always difficult between so many fighting arms of so many different countries, and of course by sheer weight of numbers the US guys are going to be in the top percent of "blue on blues" anyway.

You are also right that on the "two way range" (as you so nicely put it!) rounds can go astray.
Rounds did not however go astray in this particular blue on blue. It was a strafing run directed on the Canadians.

I stand by my original point however. Our US cousins do tend to be a little gung ho in the face of battle.

My answer to your above points is this: If you ain't sure, don't press the button.

An advisory note often lost on our American colleagues at times I feel.

[BN Boy]

SASless,

Let us also remember that this is a 'Rumour' page and as such is the perfect place to add conjecture and speculate.

And yes, I am very aware that there are TA in Afgan and Iraq...I've served with them in both theatres. And no, I would not say the same about them; as Hawkman has just written, there appears to be a difference in the way British and American forces execute they're combat mission, both the reg force types and reservists.

That said, I'm not trying to turn this into an American slagging match. Despite this recent accidents, I've also been witness to some very good and very timely American CAS.

You mentioned the 'fog of war' (in many more words): I agree that it has a massive effect on PDM in the battle space, but if a 'blue on blue' does occur questions, rumour driven or factually based, need to be asked.

By the way, thanks for the book title. I will indeed pick it up.

[SASless]

But what happens when everything convinces the pilot that all is as it should be...and he exercises proper judgement....hits the given target....and later finds out he had been given bum poop? Is the pilot at fault?

The problem is when you are quite sure....but in effect quite wrong but for all the right reasons that this gets awkward.

[Climebear]

If only to annoy SASLess...
All airmen should know of the American John Boyd's 'OODA Loop' that was originally used for air-to-air combat but is now used for combat as a whole. It was originally meant to stand for Observe, Orientate, Decide, Act - if you could do this quicker than your opponent then you 'should' win.
Well it would appear that out American cousins have now decided to take this one step further and altered the tried and tested formula to:
Observe
Over-react
Destroy
Apologise
OK I admit, I stole this joke from someone else (a USAF B1 pilot).

[BEagle]

"Our US cousins do tend to be a little gung ho in the face of battle."

I was first told of this in about 1958 by WW2 survivors. 'Trigger happy Yanks', they called them back then.

Just read Peter de la Billiere's thoughts about the USMreenKaw's gung ho-ism in GW1 in 'Storm Command'.....

Condolences to the families of those killed and injured. Thoughts also to the aircrew involved, who must surely be feeling pretty gutted.

[orca]

Without wanting to excuse a Blue-On-Blue:

If one country supplies the lion's share of all aircraft types, in every war in living memory, with other countries supplying pitiful contributions of niche capabilities, then the God of statistics comes out to play.

Simple averages very quickly tell you who will be the unlucky bugger who has every intention of helping out the lads on the ground, but sadly doesn't.

Truth is, the FAC obviously wanted cannon fire, and no-one else was there to give it. Incredibly sad news for the deceased, family and friends...and not exactly pleasant for the Hog driver.

[brickhistory]

"Our US cousins do tend to be a little gung ho in the face of battle."
I was first told of this in about 1958 by WW2 survivors. 'Trigger happy Yanks', they called them back then.
Just read Peter de la Billiere's thoughts about the USMreenKaw's gung ho-ism in GW1 in 'Storm Command'.....

So is the reverse then true regarding British forces in the face of battle? I know which attitude I'd like.

"Trigger happy Yanks;" how could they tell what with the RAF/RN flying American hardware?

Re Gen de la Billiere's thoughts; no comment. The man's good so I have to respect that. Difference in cultures, perhaps? Doesn't make us wrong, just different.

Re BN boy and his ANG insults: since you don't have any info regarding your background posted, how did you come by this opinion? Hmmm, a guy has a job - even if a banker - AND has to keep his many flying currencies. Sounds sporty to get it all done and keep the family fed. Oh, not to mention the deployments when the civvie career (which is the primary source of income!) has to go on hold. Tell you what, feel free to put the mic down next time you want CAS!

I'm not qualified to judge what happens in a CAS cockpit, BN, are you? QFIhawkman man is, I'll at least listen to his comments. Yours rank right up there with the worst that were posted in the Nimrod threads. Which, as of my last check, not ONE American had been a d!ck like BN Boy on this thread regarding the ANG and "helping the Tali" out.

Tell you what, get a numerically significant Air Force and then let's compare percentages.

(Not meant to be insulting to the present RAF aircrews. From reports, the RAF GR guys are doing outstanding work; good on 'em! Just wish there were more of them!)

[BEagle]

"Trigger happy Yanks;" how could they tell what with the RAF/RN flying American hardware?

Perhaps I should have added that the comment came from an ex-Spitfire pilot and an ex-RN Albacore/Swordfish/Defiant (so he said) pilot....about B-17s.

I don't think many RAF/RN crews flew those?

[brickhistory]

"Trigger happy Yanks;" how could they tell what with the RAF/RN flying American hardware?
Perhaps I should have added that the comment came from an ex-Spitfire pilot and an ex-RN Albacore/Swordfish/Defiant (so he said) pilot....about B-17s.
I don't think many RAF/RN crews flew those?

Yep,RAF's "Fortress I." Tried out for Bomber Command, found lacking (early model C and/or E's) given to Coastal Command, flew for most of that conflict.

Edited to add: from what I understand, the bomber gunners WERE trigger happy. Took out a lot of USAAF fighters too. Not sure I'd blame them however...........

[QFIhawkman]

Tell you what, get a numerically significant Air Force and then let's compare percentages.


Brick,

I did point out that numerically speaking, US forces are always going to bear the brunt of the "blue on blue" figures. I sympathise with that.

I just wondered why the US forces tend to always "shoot first ask later" (As quoted by an USMC pilot 2 years back.)

I can't remember a RAF pilot once being blamed for a blue on blue incident in my time in (20 years).

My serious question to you is.... Is it anything to do with differing cultures within the 2 countries? Does it have anything to do with the gun culture do you think? I just wonder why I hear so many cockpit conversations along the lines of "Ooh raah, splash that motherf*cker" or "f*ck yeah!"

You won't hear that from a RAF Harrier pilot.

And by the way, I was never CAS unfortunately, I was a strike pilot in those days.

Bomb away!

[BEagle]

Not so. The Fortress 1 bombers were a bit of a disaster and were out of service in Europe by the time the US decided to join WW2. 4 later went to the Middle East, the rest to Benbecula.

The RAF also used the Fortress II with Coastal Command - and a couple of squadrons of Fortress IIIs on ECM duties.

[brickhistory]

I just wondered why the US forces tend to always "shoot first ask later" (As quoted by an USMC pilot 2 years back.)

I can't remember a RAF pilot once being blamed for a blue on blue incident in my time in (20 years).

My serious question to you is.... Is it anything to do with differing cultures within the 2 countries? Does it have anything to do with the gun culture do you think? I just wonder why I hear so many cockpit conversations along the lines of "Ooh raah, splash that motherf*cker" or "f*ck yeah!"

You won't hear that from a RAF Harrier pilot.



The Marines do have a different ethos. I hope that any of the USMC ppruners will jump in, but in my USAF experience, the Marines gear EVERYTHING they do to supporting their fellow ground pounders. If they hear a call for CAS, they are going to be very motivated to 'git 'r done!'

Regarding the different/'gun' cultures: I don't know. My experience with the UK's social thinking is limited to one visit, some COPE THUNDERS/RED FLAGS, and pprune.

Is it a matter of size? With the RAF being, unfortunately, so small, have you gotten rid of all the British-equivalent of cowboys either through the application/training phase or through professional culling? I don't know.

From the USAF perspective; I have worked with some real idiots. I have also worked with folks who just amaze me with their brains, ability and getting a difficult mission done. Does size or lack therof carry a quality of its own?

I think the latter is accurate. During WWII when the RAF was a tremendous force (and an unbelievable effort on the part of the British people!), I would say you probably had your share of buffoons in cockpits and on the ground. Now the the RAF is a glimmer of that force, does the pressure force out the average?

[flash8]

Before my current occupation, I spent some years deployed in a few tin-pot countries around the world ("Upper Volta with Rockets" being one) working extensively with the US Military and State Department, often 24/7 in some sh*th*le with nobody but Middle ranking field guys to keep me company.

Whilst I met many good decent people, I often found that the inbred american conviction "we are always right" damned irritating. It was almost an evangelical philosophy. We are superior, just trust us and we will make it all right.

That, and a complete lack of regard to cultural sensitivity, verging on some occasions on the catastrophic made me glad I got out of that scene.

Soon as I heard about this incident I just knew you boys had to be involved. Nothing personal here.

[brickhistory]

Not so. The Fortress 1 bombers were a bit of a disaster and were out of service in Europe by the time the US decided to join WW2. 4 later went to the Middle East, the rest to Benbecula.
The RAF also used the Fortress II with Coastal Command - and a couple of squadrons of Fortress IIIs on ECM duties.

Well done! And the Spitfire was the prettiest plane ever!

[brickhistory]

Whilst I met many good decent people, I often found that the inbred american conviction "we are always right" damned irritating. It was almost an evangelical philosophy. We are superior, just trust us and we will make it all right.
That, and a complete lack of regard to cultural sensitivity, verging on some occasions on the catastrophic made me glad I got out of that scene.
Soon as I heard about this incident I just knew you boys were involved. Nothing personal here, but that says a lot to me.

When Britainia Ruled The Waves, were they so different? Seems that's what the leading country of the time tends to do. Not defending it, just look at how it's not an American invention.

And we've done our fair share of making some things better, some not so good. One never hears about the good things, however.

[Smoketoomuch]

Any info beyond basic casualty figures seems to be suppressed from Afghanistan. According to yesterday's Times however UK troops called artillery onto their own position - the siituation must have been very desperate. Perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to judge?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2340571,00.html

[Two's in]

Washington Post reporting it as fire from USAF A-10's.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/04/AR2006090400126.html

...The "friendly fire" incident happened after ground troops battling Taliban militants requested air support, NATO said.

NATO said the International Security Assistance Force provided the support but "regrettably engaged friendly forces during a strafing run, using cannons." It later identified the planes as U.S. A-10 Thunderbolts.

American military spokesman Sgt. Chris Miller confirmed that U.S. planes were involved and said the NATO force can request air support from the U.S.-led coalition.

One Canadian soldier was killed, and five soldiers were wounded and evacuated out of Afghanistan for medical treatment, said NATO spokesman Maj. Scott Lundy. An investigation has been launched...

[Wizzard]

Perhaps we see destruction of the enemy as being the mission and when successful we take pride in our work.

SASless, given the context of this thread, you have surpassed even your own normal crock of sh1t
:\

[SASless]

Late night at the Pub Wiz?:uhoh:

[Two's in]

Assuming the accuracy and Situational Awareness of the CAS is still driven by the NATO nine line brief, especially location of any friendlies, it is troubling that the same factors appear in so many BOI's. Noone doubts when the ground situation has the enemy in such close proximity the risks inherent in CAS are greatly amplified, but that is surely when the need for extreme caution is at its greatest. Regardless of the statistical probability of getting shot up by an A-10 because they conduct the most CAS operations, there has to be a better way of doing business. The BOI will establish what role a Ground or Airborne FAC had a to play in this tragedy (or not), but the effect on morale of these incidents is far more demoralizing than any enemy action. The fratricide committed on the UK Warriors in GW1, Blackhawks in Iraq, and the previous Canadian incident in Afghanistan were all launched from different platforms (but all USAF) and were all attributed to the "fog of war". Don't hold your breath for this one being anything different.

[FormerFlake]

I understand from reading 'Task Force Dagger' that a few off the early 'Blue on Blues' were caused by the ground operators miss reading their GPS. Aparently when switching between modes it defaults to show your position, rather then the previously calculated enemy position. When under fire it would be easy to make a mistake as sadly shown in the book.

I truely hope training, software upgrades or new GPS equipment have prevented this from happening agian.

[ORAC]

and the previous Canadian incident in Afghanistan were all launched from different platforms (but all USAF) The last Afghan incident, against the Canadians, involved the (Illinois) ANG, not the USAF, and the pilot involved, Maj Harry Schmidt (Ex USN), whilst not discharged, was relieved of flying duties and informed he would never fly a military aircraft again. It was certainly not blamed on the fog of war...

Following is the text of a letter of reprimand issued Tuesday by Lt.-Gen. Bruce Carlson of the United States 8th Air Force to fighter pilot Maj. Harry Schmidt, who dropped a bomb that killed four Canadian soldiers and injured eight others in April 2002 in Afghanistan:

"You are hereby reprimanded. You flagrantly disregarded a direct order from the controlling agency, exercised a total lack of basic flight discipline over your aircraft, and blatantly ignored the applicable rules of engagement and special instructions. Your wilful misconduct directly caused the most egregious consequences imaginable, the deaths of four coalition soldiers and injury to eight others. The victims of your callous misbehaviour were from one of our staunch allies in Operation Enduring Freedom and were your comrades-in-arms.

"You acted shamefully on 17 April 2002 over Tarnak Farms, Afghanistan, exhibiting arrogance and a lack of flight discipline. When your flight lead warned you to "make sure it's not friendlies" and the Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft controller directed you to "stand by" and later to "hold fire," you should have marked the location with your targeting pod. Thereafter, if you believed, as you stated, you and your leader were threatened, you should have taken a series of evasive actions and remained at a safe distance to await further instructions from AWACS. Instead, you closed on the target and blatantly disobeyed the direction to "hold fire." Your failure to follow that order is inexcusable. I do not believe you acted in defence of Maj. Umbach or yourself. Your actions indicate that you used your self-defence declaration as a pretext to strike a target, which you rashly decided was an enemy firing position, and about which you had exhausted your patience in waiting for clearance from the Combined Air Operations Center to engage. You used the inherent right of self-defence as an excuse to wage your own war.

"In your personal presentation before me on 1 July 2004, I was astounded that you portrayed yourself as a victim of the disciplinary process without expressing heartfelt remorse over the deaths and injuries you caused to the members of the Canadian Forces. In fact, you were obviously angry that the United States Air Force had dared to question your actions during the 17 April 2002 tragedy. Far from providing any defence for your actions, the written materials you presented to me at the hearing only served to illustrate the degree to which you lacked flight discipline as a wingman of COFFEE Flight on 17 April 2002.

"Through your arrogance, you undermined one of the most sophisticated weapons systems in the world, consisting of the Combined Air Operations Center, the Airborne Warning and Control System, and highly disciplined pilots, all of whom must work together in an integrated fashion to achieve combat goals. The United States Air Force is a major contributor to military victories over our nation's enemies because our pilots possess superior flight discipline. However, your actions on the night of 17 April 2002 demonstrate an astonishing lack of flight discipline. You were blessed with an aptitude for aviation, your nation provided you the best aviation training on the planet, and you acquired combat expertise in previous armed conflicts. However, by your gross poor judgment, you ignored your training and your duty to exercise flight discipline, and the result was tragic. I have no faith in your abilities to perform in a combat environment.

"I am concerned about more than your poor airmanship; I am also greatly concerned about your officership and judgment. Our Air Force core values stress "integrity first." Following the engagement in question, you lied about the reasons why you engaged the target after you were directed to hold fire and then you sought to blame others. You had the right to remain silent, but not the right to lie. In short, the final casualty of the engagement over Kandahar on 17 April 2002 was your integrity."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the Black Hawk incident. Whilst the F-15 pilots were not held culpable, it was not held to be a fog of war incident, but the culmination of a series of errors which ended up with:

The E3A TD, Capt Jim Wang, being court martialled (acquitted)

Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Pilkington, commander Provide Comfort Combined Task Force at the time of the incident, receiving an official letter of admonishment for "his failure to fulfill his responsibilities as a commander" and was relieved of his command.

Brig. Gen. Curtis Emery, commander of the CAOC, receiving an official letter of admonishment for "failure to maintain adequate control and aircraft integration within the tactical area of responsibility."

Additionally, one officer receiving an Article 15 and five others receiving official letters of reprimand, effectively ending their careers.

[London Mil]

Reading Schmidt's 'reprimand', I can't help thinking that if a Brit was found to be negligent in such a fashion, he would probably still be languishing in the Scrubs.

[Tourist]

Quality Bollocking though!
Succinct, and completely devastating!

[ORAC]

[JURIST] - Monday, April 10, 2006

National Guard Major Harry Schmidt is suing the US Air Force for violating his privacy after it published a letter of reprimand for his involvement in a friendly-fire incident in Afghanistan.....

Schmidt alleges that the Air Force published the scathing letter against him in violation of their agreement, damaging his reputation. The suit, filed in federal court on Friday, asks for unspecified damages.

[scroggs]

... and a couple of squadrons of Fortress IIIs on ECM duties.

On which my Grandfather served as a Sqn Ldr between (I think) 1943/45. He had some interesting stories...

Sorry for the thread creep!

[dakkg651]

[JURIST] - Monday, April 10, 2006
National Guard Major Harry Schmidt is suing the US Air Force for violating his privacy after it published a letter of reprimand for his involvement in a friendly-fire incident in Afghanistan.....
Schmidt alleges that the Air Force published the scathing letter against him in violation of their agreement, damaging his reputation. The suit, filed in federal court on Friday, asks for unspecified damages.

So he could end up making a tidy sum of money by wasting a few friendlies.

Something wrong here I think!

[Zoom]

By the look of that incredible b*ll*cking, it is difficult to regard it as merely a reprimand, and I agree with London Mil. And only 2 words were missing from it: the first is 'pre-meditated' and I won't mention the second.

[ORAC]

He was originally charged with 4 counts of manslaughter, but the lawyers persuaded the command chain it was unlikely to succeed in court, so they cut a plea bargain. His mission lead agreed to resign his commission, he accepted the reprimand and grounding. For reasons why, in part, involve previous incidents including a B-52 mission the same year....

The following is copied from a JAG site..

Sunday, February 29, 2004 - FRATRICIDE BECOMES POLITICIZED - AGAIN

Friday's Shreveport Times (Louisiana) runs a story that exposes the current fratricide court-martial of Air Force Major Harry Schmidt. Apparently, the very same Air Force General who is pro(per?)secuting Maj. Schmidt may be turning a blind eye to a fratricide incident of even greater proportions:

On June 22, a Barksdale B-52 bomber taking part in a joint services exercise in Djibouti, a nation in the Horn of Africa, dropped a string of nine 750-pound M117 unguided bombs that landed not on target, but rather on an observation post nearly a mile away. One Marine, helicopter pilot Capt. Seth Michaud of Hudson, Mass., was killed. Eight other U.S. military personnel - seven Marines and a Navy lieutenant - were critically or seriously injured and two CH-53E helicopters were destroyed. An investigative report, issued in January under the authority of Air Force Brig. Gen. Gilmary Hostage, bluntly states the accident was due to crew error, though with "no evidence to support any willful intent on their part.

Maj. Schmidt is being charged with the manslaughter of Canadian troops who he engaged thinking they were Taliban forces in Afghanistan. The B-52 incident hasn't escaped Maj. Schmidt's lawyers:

Dissimilarities in the ways the friendly fire crews are being treated concern Charles Gittins, Schmidt's civilian attorney. Gittins said the differences are "explainable only as a matter of politics. To date they are the only names of any pilots released who have been involved in at least 17 certain incidents of friendly fire resulting in deaths as a result of aircraft engagements."

He said the B-52 incident that resulted in a loss of life also warrants closer and public scrutiny.

"The Djibouti accident was a training mission - those guys had all day to get it right," Gittins said. "Major Schmidt was flying a combat mission in a combat zone and observed what clearly appeared to be rocket propelled munitions directed at his flight lead. He didn't have the luxury of a crew of five to make a decision. He didn't have an instructor standing over his shoulder watching him (as in the B-52) and, he got no help from the theater command and control system. The injustice of charging Major Schmidt with a crime fairly slaps one in the face when compared to the B-52 accident, from a unit 'owned' by the same convening authority."

ANALYSIS: ..Legally speaking, it's problematic that someone under the pressure of combat action gets charged with manslaughter while another pilot causing a death in a sterile training environment is being treated with kid gloves. Why is Maj. Schmidt being singled out?

As I told you here, it's because the National Command Authority needs to keep good relations with Canada, whose press is having a field day with the story. Unlawful command influence, the tendency for commanders to put their thumbs on the scales of justice and illegal under Article 37 and Article 98 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, will be a huge issue in the litigation. Any perceived difference in treatment between the B-52 case and the Schmidt case will give greater grist for the defense's motion mill.

Go-Pills will also be another big defense; Schimdt was under the influence of Air Force-prescribed amphetamines at the time of the incident.

[brickhistory]

What happened to the pprune rule (unwritten) of NOT putting actual names regarding posts? Yes, the letter is out there in the public domain, but rarely do British personnel who screw the pooch get a public naming here.

Regarding Maj S*****, he got off easy and I hope he's not successful in his lawsuit.

BUT, if it had been an RAF pilot, would the ppruners be so quick to post his name? Hmmmm.......or is it, "Oh, it's an American, it's quite all right, as any press, as long as it negative, is all right?"

We're not above the rules usually followed here, but we're not below them either.

[althenick]

National Guard Major Harry Schmidt is suing the US Air Force for violating his privacy after it published a letter of reprimand for his involvement in a friendly-fire incident in Afghanistan.....

Brick_History
I quite agree with what you say, I also hope that he doesn't succeed in his law suit if no other reason than to prevent him from Claiming the Moral High-ground.
However publicising reprimands is a bit out of order. First thing I learned when I did my leadership course with the RNR was Praise in Public, Rebuke in Private.
...And yes - its also out of order to print his name on PPRUNE (even if it is on the public domain)

[ORAC]

If his own chain of command think it deserving of publication I, for one, am not going to argue with them......

[Skunkerama]

to 'git 'r done!'

Wow, quoting Larry the Cable Guy, very impressive. Twill make it easier to understand where your typical redneck, ignorant rants are coming from.

[brickhistory]

Wow, quoting Larry the Cable Guy, very impressive. Twill make it easier to understand where your typical redneck, ignorant rants are coming from.

Let's see now, let me try small words spoken slowly....

The Larry the Cable Guy reference was in reference to a question about possible differences between UK and US thought processes (have fun with that one!). Wouldn't have been quite the same if I'd used Billy Connolly or the like now would it? (And I like BC.).

Feel free to either not read or block my posts. PM me if you like instructions.

I do note that you didn't address the point, however. Goose to gander, over...

[Skunkerama]

You would have at least shown a liking or even possibly an understanding of quality humour if you had quoted Bill Hicks or Doug Stanhope. Quoting Moron the cable guy can't be seen as anything less than a love for NASCAR worshipping pig squeeling rednecks. The day that idiot writes something funny or intelligent will be in his suicide note.

My experience with the US hobby of blue on blue? Only in excersise and on a firepower demo, think it was Salisbury Plain. We had given our pert of the demo 81mm HE, WP smoke etc (WP on delay make nice roman candle effects). Arty and SF guys had done some nice revving up of the targets also. Then a couple of harriers popped in with excercise munitions and zapped the red tanks quite nicely. But hang on here are the highlights of the show, the one thing we had all been looking forward to seeing. 2 x A10's (we were gutted they werent cleared to use their Avengers) droned in and dropped their markers.....on the 2 x blue tanks (already designated as friendly). Cue 42 commando falling on their arses laughing their heads off and a few red faced HQ elements etc. This happened in 92, only a year after those poor buggers in the Warrior found out that the enemy don't always vote Saddam.

Also whilst working with the USMC in Virginia Beach we were given an interesting and scary nugget of info by one the sgt's. Just over 400 service personel had been killed in range accidents the previous year within the US forces.

400? I'm sure that M-16's have safety catches don't they?. Down targets...patch out.

[brickhistory]

If your numbers stated from the USMC Sgt are true (and I'm not questioning your memory), then that's sad and scary.

However, nowhere have I defended fratricide. Sucks and I think most trigger pullers (and I am not one, combat support, thank you!) really do try their utmost to not frag a friendly.

My point, which I think is the one to cause you to call "fight's on," had to do with naming names. It doesn't seem to occur when it's a Brit, so why is it kosher (wait for it...................................................get it?!) to name an American on pprune when there's a screw up?

And for the A-10 doing the wrong target, I'd have laughed too. Now, did they learn from that episode? I hope so.

[Skunkerama]

Memory isnt that bad Brick cause myself and the 2 other guys who were in that conversation with the guy were pretty shocked and talked with him about that for most of the free time we had (were holed up awaiting our turn at paintball FIBUA at the time). Don't think the Sgt was trying to score points either, he was (like most of the USMC I met) a pretty spot on bloke.

[LateArmLive]

I think it is very easy to slag off the A10 pilots here, and American "ROE" in general. Yes, they made a dreadful mistake, but I can guarantee you all that it is no picnic being sat above a Troops In Contact situation. You can bet that these pilots had guys on the radio screaming for weapons to be put on the ground ASAP before they lost any more men/took any more incoming fire. The pilots will have been caught between the old rock and hard place ie. wanting to get the bombs on the ground quickly to help out the friendlies, but at the same time trying to identify everyone down there.
Many of us who have been involved in these situations will have been asked to put weaponry down VERY close to the friendlies. I know of several recent occurences where FACs have asked for heavy weapons within 100 feet of their very positions. One can only surmise that this is what happened in the situation we are discussing in this thread, however I wasn't there so can only guess.
Before slagging off the Americans any further, we must remember that they operate under differing ROE to us brits. The A10 and F16 pilots I have worked with over the years have been professional and meticulous in their work; not "gung-ho" by any means.

"If there's any doubt - don't drop." It has been beaten into me and my colleagues for years. There are times when we've come home with bombs on even though the FACs have been requesting ordnance. The difficult part is knowing when NOT to drop.

[Two's in]

Not to be a complete pedant ORAC, but regarding ;

The last Afghan incident, against the Canadians, involved the (Illinois) ANG, not the USAF, and the pilot involved, Maj Harry Schmidt (Ex USN), whilst not discharged, was relieved of flying duties and informed he would never fly a military aircraft again. It was certainly not blamed on the fog of war...

I would assume that the aircraft was operating under an ATO generated by the USAF, and that the Governor of Illinois was not responsible for the operational tasking of this asset while it was in Afghanistan. Even the letter of reprimand states...

Through your arrogance, you undermined one of the most sophisticated weapons systems in the world, consisting of the Combined Air Operations Center, the Airborne Warning and Control System, and highly disciplined pilots, all of whom must work together in an integrated fashion to achieve combat goals. The United States Air Force is a major contributor to military victories over our nation's enemies because our pilots possess superior flight discipline. However, your actions on the night of 17 April 2002 demonstrate an astonishing lack of flight discipline...

I think it unlikely that the mourners and relatives of those slain or injured by this act would be inclined to differentiate between it being a culpable act by the State of Illinois versus the USAF. The shame and ignominy of the USAF are amplified even more so knowing that the individual was from the ANG, possibly a factor in Gen Carlson's response.

[SASless]

Skunk,

You just stepped on a land mine!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3847051.stm

Get to googling and determine for yourself how many British fatalities have been Blue on Blue from accidental discharges, suicide, friendly fire, and other non-combat fire arms deathes. The number and percentage is going to astound you just as it did me.

I refrained from making any comment until now because I felt it would not be any good to do so....but since you hopped onto your soap box....and made like Speaker's Corner....I feel it is fair to do so.

Bluntly Sport, the British military is no better than any other military when it comes to popping off stray round that find the wrong mark.

Every casualty, no matter the cause or nationality, cannot be taken for granted and for the individual and families involved all are just as tragic as the next.

If you want to bash Spams at least get yer facts straight before you open your festering gob.

Some how you just do not understand American Humour anymore than some Americans fail to see the funny side of good British Humour.

When Larry the Cable Guy can stand up an mock Rednecks and get them to laugh at themselves....then that is some pretty good humour. Billy Connolly can get Glaswegians to do the same....do you think he is droll as well?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Senseless,

I have seen you post some real tosh in the past but f@ck me readers now you expect us to believe that Suicide equates to blue on blue:ugh:

just when you thought you had heard it all........................:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Mighty Norman]

Senseless,

I have seen you post some real tosh in the past but f@ck me readers now you expect us to believe that Suicide equates to blue on blue:ugh:

just when you thought you had heard it all........................:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

No No be fair, he is technically correct!! What a douche!

[Ali Barber]

From the reports so far, this sounds like a dreadful accident and one of those "sh1t happens" kind of incident that occurs in wars. The guys needed help, called for it and the air delivered it as best they could. Unfortunate, even excusable perhaps. He was doing his best.

The incident involving the Canadians, the pilot was told NOT to attack, was NOT in any danger, took it on himself to go down into the "danger area" and let them have it. Culpably negligent. I undestand he appealed the decision and was given the same decision/response. He was a liability.

[AHQHI656SQN]

This post seems to have lost its way a little.
All the pilots providing CAS have a very difficult task. The ACM get in close and that means if CAS is to be used, then it too has to be close.
I feel for the families of those lost in battle, and may those brave souls rest in peace. I also feel for the pilots of the aircraft; who will have to carry this terrible incident with them where ever they go.

[QFIhawkman]

This post seems to have lost its way a little.
All the pilots providing CAS have a very difficult task. The ACM get in close and that means if CAS is to be used, then it too has to be close.
I feel for the families of those lost in battle, and may those brave soles rest in peace. I also feel for the pilots of the aircraft; who will have to carry this terrible incident with them where ever they go.

Souls AHQHI. They weren't fish.

I echo your sentiment however, and my thoughts have always been with those lost on the ground. I stand by my first post though, the gist of which was "If you aren't sure, don't press the button".

[Pontius Navigator]

Brick, see PM. After the WW chat and above it should not surprise you.

[flash8]

Quality Bollocking though!
Succinct, and completely devastating!
Total Quality, one has to respect the yanks on that one, respect.

[Skunkerama]

Skunk,

You just stepped on a land mine!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3847051.stm

Get to googling and determine for yourself how many British fatalities have been Blue on Blue from accidental discharges, suicide, friendly fire, and other non-combat fire arms deathes. The number and percentage is going to astound you just as it did me.

I refrained from making any comment until now because I felt it would not be any good to do so....but since you hopped onto your soap box....and made like Speaker's Corner....I feel it is fair to do so.

Bluntly Sport, the British military is no better than any other military when it comes to popping off stray round that find the wrong mark.

Every casualty, no matter the cause or nationality, cannot be taken for granted and for the individual and families involved all are just as tragic as the next.

If you want to bash Spams at least get yer facts straight before you open your festering gob.

Some how you just do not understand American Humour anymore than some Americans fail to see the funny side of good British Humour.

When Larry the Cable Guy can stand up an mock Rednecks and get them to laugh at themselves....then that is some pretty good humour. Billy Connolly can get Glaswegians to do the same....do you think he is droll as well?

SASless whats up? Feeling a bit cranky last night?
Just to let you know, I didnt make anything up, those were the words straight from that guys mouth. Not my supposed "festering one" which is quite a nice mouth actually, all minty fresh etc.
I havent trodden on a landmine as the accidents that happen withing the US military were used on regular occasions in our briefings and training to point out lessons. The amount of people you were loosing in the 90's to accidents /blue on blue etc was quite appalling. We were never warned about Suicides though so I guess thats where Deep Cut went wrong. Didnt realise that a suicide was now a blue on blue, crikey theres a lot of blue on blues going on in Scandinavia isnt there.
Also having worked with the USMC and have them gobsmacked when they have witnessed our live company attacks in Puerto Rico I can tell you that that one of your main problems is your lack of serious training. I don't know if it has changed but your chaps werent allowed to do Live Firing attacks with any more than a section (8 men) because of safety. They were shocked when they helped marshal our Company attacks 90+ including 81mm mortar / 51 mm Mortar, and GPMG SF also at night.

If your not used to firing live ordnance in the immediate vicinity of your oppos then accidents will happen.

Mind you we used the adage of "Train hard, fight easy". Works well, perhaps that is another thing you could learn from us.


And no matter how much you try to convince people, Larry The Toilet is not funny, he's not even witty or even zany. He is about as talanted as Steve Wright on Radio2. When you have the opportunity to quote Richard Prior, Bill Hicks, Stanhope etc quoteing "Git r Done" is really scraping the bottom. Mind you, the septics loved Benny Hill so there is no accounting for taste, and irony is like algebra for you guys.
Billy Connolly on the other hand used to be very funny and now and then manages to be ok but has seriously lost his way.
Try Peter Cook, Bob Monkhouse (blue stuff), Hancock, Cooper, Morecombe, Merton, Russel Brand etc, listen to those guys and you might not wake up in such a crabby mood as you seem to do, so often.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh sh1t Skunk,

Now you've gone and done it, Senseless will be apopleptic when he reads that one:D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[brickhistory]

Mind you we used the adage of "Train hard, fight easy". Works well, perhaps that is another thing you could learn from us.


And no matter how much you try to convince people, Larry The Toilet is not funny, he's not even witty or even zany.

Mind you, the septics loved Benny Hill so there is no accounting for taste, and irony is like algebra for you guys.



skunk,

THANK YOU for your sage advice on how the US should train. Now WHY didn't we think of that? That there RED FLAG you run is just the cat's a**! Same for some of those other large force exercises you run (you DO have large forces, don't you? Oh, sorry..........didn't mean to embarass.)

For some reason I just can't fathom (but then I am American, therefore 'blond' in your opinion, me thinks), you choose to focus on a small quote from Larry the Cable Guy and blow it out of proportion. I could care less if you think he or anyone else is funny. My intent in choosing THAT particular qoute of his was to illustrate my point about the US Marines, in particular, being highly motivated to support their own when the ground guys call for help. "Git 'r done" just means do the job and don't whine about it. A lot of his material is moronic, but some of it IS funny. Different strokes and all that.

And say, THAT point comes back to the "what do you think is the difference between US and UK philosophies on shoot or don't shoot" in CAS situations. You seem to have lost focus, but then, does it matter?

Re your oh so original jibe (look it up!) regarding algebra and the like for Americans, fair point. Can we trade you some of our dentists and orthodontists for some of your math instructors?

I'm done with you on this.

Regarding the point of the thread. It is a damn shame that friendlies got schwacked by A-10s. Wish to God it hadn't happened or won't happen again.

[MarkD]

I think the main problem in Canada in respect of this and the Coffee Flight bombing is the contrast between the reaction of American forces (for instance, the adding of the four Patricias killed by Coffee Flight to the Fort Campbell Memorial of the 187th Inf in Kentucky (http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050523/w0523104.html)) and their political leaders - I think a lot of Canadians felt the White House should have been more contrite about the incident.

Issuing a statement via the Ambassador might do elsewhere but when you're relying on Canadian co-operation to maintain border security, NORAD and extradition arrangements and considering the thousands of citizens who live in each other's territories and the number of Canadians serving in US Forces, a more fulsome apology would have been welcome.

However, since the WH doesn't want to acknowledge US casualties I suppose it's too much to expect them to acknowledge Canadian ones.

[Skunkerama]

Sorry Brick, I did make one major oversight in my post. Why bother with live firing exercises when you can just invade a little country for oil and train your soldiers in a cosy little war against last generation US equipment?

Nice jibe regarding the size of our forces but hey....quality not quantity.

Also making a joke regarding British Teeth in the same sentance where your going on about old and out of date jokes? Guess what....thats ironic. Your nearly there. Pat on the back time.

Oh and the CAS question? If your not 110% sure that your sights are on the enemy, then don't pull the trigger. 6 P's also help. Things get hairy after the first shots are fired, but thats when you rely on your excellent training and planning to get you through. I'm sure you know that already though.

[SASless]

In the words of Abraham Lincoln when asked "if a dog's tail was a called a leg, how many legs would a dog have?"

His response was "Simply calling the tail a leg does not make it so."

[Skunkerama]

"It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required".

Winston Churchill

[Lazer-Hound]

skunk,

THANK YOU for your sage advice on how the US should train. Now WHY didn't we think of that? That there RED FLAG you run is just the cat's a**! Same for some of those other large force exercises you run (you DO have large forces, don't you? Oh, sorry..........didn't mean to embarass.)

For some reason I just can't fathom (but then I am American, therefore 'blond' in your opinion, me thinks), you choose to focus on a small quote from Larry the Cable Guy and blow it out of proportion. I could care less if you think he or anyone else is funny. My intent in choosing THAT particular qoute of his was to illustrate my point about the US Marines, in particular, being highly motivated to support their own when the ground guys call for help. "Git 'r done" just means do the job and don't whine about it. A lot of his material is moronic, but some of it IS funny. Different strokes and all that.

And say, THAT point comes back to the "what do you think is the difference between US and UK philosophies on shoot or don't shoot" in CAS situations. You seem to have lost focus, but then, does it matter?

Re your oh so original jibe (look it up!) regarding algebra and the like for Americans, fair point. Can we trade you some of our dentists and orthodontists for some of your math instructors?

I'm done with you on this.

Regarding the point of the thread. It is a damn shame that friendlies got schwacked by A-10s. Wish to God it hadn't happened or won't happen again.


I think in this context you mean you COULD NOT care less, no?

[brickhistory]

I think in this context you mean you COULD NOT care less, no?

Does not the "less" in the sentence carry a negative connotation? If so, then "could not care less" would be a double negative, thus becoming a positive.

If "less" is not a negative, then I'll still stick to my original post, because, upon review, I must have cared somewhat to take the time to reply.

But, it's your English language, we just borrowed and adapted it (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse!)! :}

[Zoom]

SASless
Sorry, but I'm not with you on Abe's dog/leg story, and I think Abe missed the point too. If the tail IS a leg, it is a leg. If you just CALL the tail a leg, it is still a tail. To make the mighty President's retort correct the question should have been phrased, 'If a dog's tail was called a leg, how many legs would a dog have?'

Zoom for President. :ok:

[SASless]

Zoom is correct....as was Abe....I did not quote Abe correctly. Correction made.

[Lazer-Hound]

Does not the "less" in the sentence carry a negative connotation? If so, then "could not care less" would be a double negative, thus becoming a positive.

If "less" is not a negative, then I'll still stick to my original post, because, upon review, I must have cared somewhat to take the time to reply.

But, it's your English language, we just borrowed and adapted it (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse!)! :}

If you could care less, that means you at least care some. If you couldn't care less, that means you don't care at all. Simple, really.

[Semper Jump Jet]

I spoke with a USMC pilot two years ago, and when this subject came up, he told me it was because "We (the US) fire first and ask questions later."
He intimated that this was a good thing I might add.
I've lost count of the video clips I've seen over the last couple of years where some vehicle / bridge / building etc gets splashed, accompanied by a soundtrack of shouted "F*ck yeahs", "God damns" and general whooping and screaming.

Thinking back to my sorties in Iraq 1, I won't say I was calm about the whole thing (far from it) but none of those "gung ho" shouts for one minute entered my head.
It just makes me wonder about the difference in mentality between the US and the UK when it comes to taking another life.

Sorry Gents, time for me to weigh in here:
QFIHawkman-

As Marine Harrier pilot I can tell you that the pilot you are quoting is a complete ass and deserves a good stomping. STOP quoting him and start quoting me. The pilots I have had the good fortune to serve with are competent, well-trained professionals. Not one of them would say such a stupid thing. We DO NOT shoot first and ask questions later. Our business is putting ordnance on time and on target and we're damn serious about it. And by the way, one of the best 'ooh-rah' videos I've ever seen from Iraq II (Telec?) was made by an RAF exchange pilot, so I guess it takes all kinds...

Brickhistory-

The Sgt you spoke with is jerking your chain. There is no way the USMC loses 400 per year in ground training accidents. I reviewed the safety stats for this year and I can only identify one operational (non-combat) gunshot fatality. See for yourself at http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/ashore/marines/default.htm

[SASless]

Semps,

The responses will go like this...

Navy safety site....plainly manipulated numbers,Marine Harrier pilot....not a real Harrier pilot (ie. RAF Harrier pilot), not a QFI,and a Spam...what can you probably know.

Semper Fi, Mac!:ok:

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Some of you are making something simple sound very complicated. Basically, Americans often say "could care less" when Brits say "couldn't care less". They mean the same thing.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

If I might just weigh in here, this was an expression that caused me some confusion for a number of years. Basically: They say "I could care less" We say "I couldn't care less" and we both mean the same thing.

They are of course wrong :} but I suppose I could find many expressions (1) we use that also pass the syntax checker but fail the parser.

btw, when I say "They" and "We" I am myself being misleading because I am neither

...or perhaps both :confused:






(1) "I'll go to the foot of our stairs" as a for instance, especially as I live in a bungalow

[West Coast]

"It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required".


I would love to see what winnie was referencing.

Mark
"a more fulsome apology would have been welcome"

After all the facts come to light, I would hope so as well.

skunk
"is your lack of serious training"

I would love to see you back this up with some fact, rather than what you think you gleaned from a flailex. My association with the Corps goes back to the mid 80's. I can tell you with certainty that combined arms (live fire) exercises from the size you quote to MEF size are common.

QFIhawkman
This crap was paraded around after the initial battles of the Iraq war, brought up IIRC by our resident journo. It wasn't long before equally as incriminating evidence was found of Brits doing same. Go do some browsing on AARSE and take a look at some of your jingoistic Brit mil types that hang out there.

[dakkg651]

Ah Good.

No posts since 5am.

Does this mean that this nonsensical argument has finally stopped.

I've seen more blue on blue between allies on this thread than there's ever been out there in the real world!

[Skunkerama]

Nope.


Semp, the 400 personell lost was my info not Bricks so please don't rip him for it. The Sgt in question was referring to the whole of the US military not just USMC. USAF, Navy, USMC, Army, Nat Guard etc.


Westy. What I think I gleaned? So you think I was smoking something? Or just imagined the whole time with the USMC umpires? We do talk to each other you know, in real life, not just via a daft forum.

Oh and the Lincoln quote was apparantley not originaly from Lincoln and it can't be proved that he said it apparantley. But what the hey, it sounds nice, if a bit lame.

[Wader2]

If you want a good account of the CAS dilemma read Nick Richardson's account. He was shot down trying to get a good mark on the target and avoiding fratricide. It was a very difficult call and a cracking account.

No Escape Zone: One Man's True Story of a Journey to Hell (Paperback)
by Nick Richardson (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/026-4489661-3614039?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books-uk&field-keywords=Nick%20Richardson)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Escape-Zone-Story-Journey/dp/0751531022/sr=1-1/ref=si_1_1/026-4489661-3614039?ie=UTF8&s=books

[ORAC]

Active Duty Military Deaths (http://www.murdocnet.net/pics/Death_Rates.pdf) Accidental deaths seem to average about 400-500 a year, excluding homicide, illness, suicide, hostile action and terrorist attack.

But I presume that still includes driving accidents, falling down stairs etc etc as well.

[Skunkerama]

Please refresh my memory. What the hell was the US involved in during the early 80's?

[Wader2]

Iran 1980 Grenada 1983 Beirut 1983 Libyia 1986

[Lazer-Hound]

Some of you are making something simple sound very complicated. Basically, Americans often say "could care less" when Brits say "couldn't care less". They mean the same thing.

Then the Americans are, of course, completely wrong!:ugh:

[mlc]

See that the USAF have withdrawn the A10 from an airshow in Canada due to the recent incident. A bit over the top in IMHO!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Not seen the Canadian press but this seems to be a very sensible move in light of this tragic incident. A low profile right now is a good thing and more importantly would YOU want to be the poor sap standing next to it in your USAF emblazoned flying suit?.............thought not:sad:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[MarkD]

mlc

they have subbed in an F-15 which maintains presence at the show without giving the media an opportunity to rough up Pvt Graham's family some more. Good move by USAF :ok:

First Tillman and now Graham - goddammit if athletes turned soldiers are going to be at hazard I'd prefer them to be soccer players, starting with the Liverpool and Chelski squads.

[West Coast]

Skunk
My post to you was to let you know you are wrong about the size of USMC training events. This from a former US Marine who participated in many. I just reread my post to you. Don't see anywhere any indications you are or were smoking anything legal or illegal. You are simply guilty of believing and/or passing along incorrect information. Then making a case based on that bogus information.

While I suspect you are simply relying on someone else's hearsay, if you have information (read factual) that supports what you posted, I would be happy to see it.

[Skunkerama]

Skunk
My post to you was to let you know you are wrong about the size of USMC training events. This from a former US Marine who participated in many. I just reread my post to you. Don't see anywhere any indications you are or were smoking anything legal or illegal. You are simply guilty of believing and/or passing along incorrect information. Then making a case based on that bogus information.

While I suspect you are simply relying on someone else's hearsay, if you have information (read factual) that supports what you posted, I would be happy to see it.


Sorry Westy, didnt have my dictafone available on the ranges in Puerto Rico. Shame really as it seems that that is the only thing that would shut you up. I tend to talk to people , Sgt's, Cpl's Mnes etc and if they seem to be honest and not bulling then I don't tend to call them liars. That is how our conversation went over that week, don't believe me if you want I don't give a sh*t. I never witnessed any evidence that your people did much in the way of quality large scale live firing excersises, but as I said earlier, maybe thats why your country starts wars.....for training, and to see how the latest weapons systems perform.

[SASless]

Perhaps it is time for the various air forces to provide CAS to their own troops thus preventing these kinds of problems.....or add to the poor grunt's load by issuing orange/purple signalling panels or high vis vests to each guy along with infrared strobes for each guy. I am sure the HSE Mafia can come up with some sort of fail safe system....or is this just one of the things that happens during close contact combat as regrettable as it is.

[West Coast]

"Sorry Westy, didnt have my dictafone available on the ranges in Puerto Rico"

You seem to remember what you wanted however despite not having one. Perhaps a laptop computer with Internet capability might help. You need not bring your dictafone with you on your travels, simply verify the information you obviously remembered prior to passing it on. The information is available that clearly shows you in error. Whether that error was because you believed what someone told you or is because you wanted it to be true is irrelevant. Again, I ask do you have any information to prove your claim or are you simply a wind up? Its your credibility at stake for reposting second hand information from someone else, so if there is some information out there that can back your claim post it. Second time I've asked. Have a feeling you can't however back the claim up.

"I never witnessed any evidence that your people did much in the way of quality large scale live firing excersises"

That is just that, you never witnessed it. Do a little research. The information is available to you. That's if you avail yourself to try.

BTW, what branch of the military are or were you in?

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, in an ideal world.

Unfortunately no one has all the possible assests that enable totally independent operations. That includes the USA. I won't catalogue them but I know several.

In essence we are all tied in to joint cooperations. The Navies perhaps do it best and air is learning fast. I can't speak of the ground.

Many smaller allies just do not have CAS assets. Others have CAS buy do not provide the ground. International is the only way we can get (cross out everything) much of what we need.

[MarkD]

SASless, rather than demerging into multiple and wasteful all-arms detachments, perhaps merging OEF fully into ISAF. If the US doesn't want this they should move their forces to Iraq, where they are needed, and allow coalition forces in Iraq to join and expand ISAF ops. But then that would mean giving up the pursuit of Bin Liner...

[flyboy007]

Every incident such as that which brought about this thread is extremely sad, and regrettable.

Having said that, this thread as ever seems to have turned into a slagging match of the US.
As a member of the British Military, albeit not British myself (nor American), I have to say, it gets really boring listening to it, whether it be in the bar, or on the jet. I have never in my travels, heard Americans slagging off the British in the same manner, or with the same frequency; usually quite the opposite. Let's not delude ourselves there is nothing they can slag off about the British Forces!!!

To those out there with level headded posts, kudos to you. To those out there to jump on the American-slagging-bandwaggon in what appears to be an odd British quirk, it's embarrassing.

As for the incident, I have no idea what happened, but I guess time will tell.

[LateArmLive]

Well said Flyboy

[Champagne Anyone?]

Flybond...


The answer is in your post... The Americans don't slag us Brits off because we don't continually make the grave errors of judgement, resulting in the death of friendlies, that the 'good ol US of A guys do!'


Simple as that! Endex! :ok: :ok: :ok:

[West Coast]

Cahampange
You just do it to yourselves instead.

[Lazer-Hound]

Flybond...


The answer is in your post... The Americans don't slag us Brits off because we don't continually make the grave errors of judgement, resulting in the death of friendlies, that the 'good ol US of A guys do!'


Simple as that! Endex! :ok: :ok: :ok:

Actually they don't slag us off because we barely impinge on their consciousness.

[Lazer-Hound]

Every incident such as that which brought about this thread is extremely sad, and regrettable.

Having said that, this thread as ever seems to have turned into a slagging match of the US.
As a member of the British Military, albeit not British myself (nor American), I have to say, it gets really boring listening to it, whether it be in the bar, or on the jet. I have never in my travels, heard Americans slagging off the British in the same manner, or with the same frequency; usually quite the opposite. Let's not delude ourselves there is nothing they can slag off about the British Forces!!!

To those out there with level headded posts, kudos to you. To those out there to jump on the American-slagging-bandwaggon in what appears to be an odd British quirk, it's embarrassing.

As for the incident, I have no idea what happened, but I guess time will tell.

They even give UK forces cute nicknames like 'The Borrowers' or 'The Flintstones'.

[Skunkerama]

BTW, what branch of the military are or were you in?

Twas a very happy Bootneck.

[Tombstone]

Champagne,

banter is all very well & I'm more than guilty of putting in my share however, and it's a BIG however, the bottom line is simple:

You will NEVER (in our lifetime) see British forces go into a large scale conflict without US involvement. We're not capable of going into the larger fights alone & never will be with the budget being as it is!

I would no have relished the thought of heading into Iraq during GWII without some decent SEAD & the USAF were the main providers. They did a good job & did it professionaly, as did our ALARMers.

We might not always appreciate the way they do business however, I know for a fact they look at us as nutters when we're screaming around at camel height.

Each to their own.