Hkg Atc

[Dragon69]

What's up with some of these prima donna controllers in HKG. On a few occasions now I've had to make a valid inquiry only to be confronted with a long winded sarcastic reply. We are all profesionals here, and the last thing I need after a 12 hours flight is some p$@^# who thinks he is of great importance belittle me on final. Frankly it is starting to wear thin and so far I've had to bite my toungue and say nothing. Most of the controllers are courteous and profesional, but there are few that need to move on to greener pastures. Anyone with similar experiences?

[canuck revenger]

....let's just say that a particular 'localisation' project has not done HK ATC any favours... As for one or two of the expats...yes, a little less scarcasm towards tired and frustrated aircrew at the end of a long flight would be appreciated. :{

[jtr]

you leave Dennis out of this

[alatnariver]

I have another question.

Last time I operated out of HKG we requested our clearance from ATC, after switching to ground control we requested start and push and were advised to stand by. Not a problem at all and this happens at most other airports around the globe as well.

After a couple of minutes we called ground control again, stating that we were still standing by for start and push and we received the same response from the ground controller as before. After another couple of minutes we called ground again and asked again for start and push and received the same response as previously. We then asked the controlled to state the reason for the delay, we received the replay „due to traffic“. We then further querried from ground the estimated delay and received no definite answer.

To make it short our next request was „succesfull“ and we were instructed to push and start up. We also received our taxi instruction for the active runway. Approaching the holding position the tower controller informed us to expect 15 minutes delay due to airspace restictions. Here we go.

I ask myself why didn’t neither delivery nor ground informed us accordingly? This would have saved a lot of dicussion on the frequency as well a considerable amount of the more and more expensive liquid used to „flood“ our engines. By the way, we were perfectly on time according to our ATC flightplan.

[throw a dyce]

Dragon 69,
As one who has moved on to colder pastures this is interesting.Belittle you on final?What's the problem after a long flight?Number in TFC,final app spacing?Not being number one?Please be specific.
I don't think you should have a go at my ex collegues,without being exact.
I certainly could raise issues with a certain airline with green tails,that used to schedule 5 pushbacks off E1,2,3,4 and S23 AT THE SAME TIME.A certain pilot for that airline called me a Jerk over the R/T for issuing a 10 min delay for push.Reason you will collide with the a/c behind.W:mad: er
There are lots of timed separations through Bekol and other points which are based on the a/c in front.It isn't like the UK where there is a slot -5/+10 min.It's exactly 10/15 min behind the one in front for the same level.:ugh:
I always thought that we should just get a/c airborne ,and let the levels sort themselves out en-route.Then a certain airline with green tails would bitch about being pegged at FL270.Can't win.If the guys break the rules then they get suspended.You should take this up with CAD senior management, about the Fred Flintstone separations,than have a go at the coal face workers.:ouch:

[bekolblockage]

I have another question.
..... after switching to ground control we requested start and push and were advised to stand by. .......

After a couple of minutes we called ground control again, stating that we were still standing by for start and push and we received the same response from the ground controller as before. .....

After another couple of minutes we called ground again and asked again for start and push and received the same response as previously.
.......
To make it short our next request was „succesfull“ and we were instructed to push and start up.
.....By the way, we were perfectly on time according to our ATC flightplan.

Are you a bit thick or something?
You asked for start and push 3 times in a 6 minutes and were told to "stand by". Obviously there WAS a reason - not just shear bloody-mindedness.
It sounds like the controller finally got fed up with your constant bleating and after the 4th request thought "stuff you - taxi if you like and go and hold somewhere else".
As Throw a dyce says, many of the restrictions we have are imposed by the Mainland, not us, and change at short notice.

[alatnariver]

A simple replay like expect "XX minutes delay due to YYYY" would be they way to do it. Remeber other places use so called slots.

[Geriatric Jet Jugler]

DragQueen 69
We all have our problems. You are at the end of a 12 hour flight – the controller may be at the end of his second successive 10 hour night shift; you have your rostering problems and niggling internal company conflicts – ATC has to contend with a shortage of staff and many bureaucratic government salary and leave restrictions; you have a few more aircraft and have to fly a few more sectors per month – ATC has no extra manpower and has to handle twice the amount of traffic compared to when the airport opened. So what you consider to be a ‘valid inquiry’ may be just one too many unnecessary questions for a controller at the end of a long hard shift, hence you might sometimes get a curt, less than friendly response.
Alatnariver
The No. 1 rule of ATC is ‘The Controller is Always Right’ and the No 2 rule of ATC is ‘You Cannot Please Every Pilot All of the Time’. I can only surmise that you are a newcomer to this part of the Orient, as push-back delays have been a continuous problem here since opening day. A combination of apron design, stand allocation, airspace restrictions and double the traffic means that they are not going to go away. As a guide, before you are ready to push, if the ground frequency is busy, there is a good chance that you will have a delay because of other traffic, if the ground frequency is not very busy, the ground controller may be fully occupied shuffling a fleet of aircraft on tow around the apron, and you will still have a delay !

Both protagonists appear to be suffering from the common aviator’s ailment known as ‘lack of the big picture’. Hong Kong ATC strives to provide the best possible service with the least overall delay to all of out customers , but with the constantly increasing traffic (964 movements in the recent post-typhoon day) the R/T congestion does not permit us to indulge in the cheery banter of old with detailed explanations of the whys and wherefores.
As my ex-colleague Highland Fling says, provide the times and details of the events and I will endevour to provide you with rational reasons/excuses/alibis for the ATC actions.
In the mean time may I suggest you contact your fleet manager and ask him to arrange a visit to ATC for you, or better still, tell him to organise a pilot/controller social gathering so that we can have a civilised discussion of our respective problems without you having to resort to biting off your appendages.

[throw a dyce]

Alatnariver,
In Europe airlines actually ask for an early push and are quite happy to burn fuel at the hold.Pushed back on time.:ok: Even our little airport has a remote hold where they go,and shut down waiting for slots.With slots it's easy.Just aim for earliest airborne time.HK is way different.It's a 1960's way of doing it when DC3's and VC8 ruled the roost.
The problems that CDC had to work out with Mainland restrictions were horrendous.Mainland would block levels,so you ended trying to work out the (procedural/metric level/nothing to do with me) problem on the ground at CLK.Why? Just get them airborne out of HK through Bekol climbing to medium level, and let Mainland sort their own problems.
I explained the Bekol problem,to a colleague in the UK,and he fell off his chair laughing.
HK ATC seems to be tasked with sorting out every other FIR's problems,usually on the ground.You can't run an ATC system with it's hand and feet tied up,and expect Heathrow movement rates.:uhoh:

[Dragon69]

Throw a Dyce,

I wouldn't be that childish and selfish to complain simply because I wasn't number 1 on the approach or the fact that I had to wait an extra 10 minutes before pushback, nor am I making this a pilot vs controller issue. But I have noticed recently a rise in unwarranted sarcastic remarks. One example is asking the app. controller to see if at 6 miles to touchdown he still wanted us on his freq. After all, and it is hard to believe, yes I know, but controllers are humans too and can forget simple tasks like handing you over to tower. Instead of replying with a yes or no, I was sarcastically told off for making, IMO a valid inquiry, and 2 seconds later he switches us to tower freq. Exactly what was the reason for such a remark, and what did it achieve? Was he announcing to everyone on his freq. how big or small his willy is? I am not exactly sure! There are w:mad: rs on both side of the fence.

[Dragon69]

Ball Jugler,

The No. 1 rule for pilots is question everything and don't blindly follow atc instructions.

Every employment has its fair share of problems, but I am certainly courteous and profesional towards everyone around me, from ground staff to cabin crew. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, you are free to leave HKG ATC anytime you wish. Just because you are at the end of a long shift doesn't give you the right to be curt to the traffic that you control

BTW when I make an inquiry it is for my benefit not yours, who are you to decide whether my inquiry is valid or not! It's about time that you stepped off your high horse!

My 'lack of the big picture' has kept me alive and incident free for 20+ years, I certainly don't need to prove myself to some p%^&k like you who thinks he is gods gift to ATC!

[electricjetjock]

Dragon 69 doing a bit of fishing are we.:rolleyes:

If not, perhaps the people you are decrying are not the only ones with a "problem". Have you ever visited a control tower / radar room? It is not as easy a job as you may think, they are trying to look after all the aircraft on there frequency not just a personal service for you. Perhaps you got a sarcastic reply because you perhaps came across that way yourself. XXX fully established on the ILS for xxL or R may have been a more diplomatic hint / reminder!:ok:

No I have not been an ATCO but visited the tower and radar room here as well as west drayton in my previous airline and we had a go at controlling in the simulator for departures out of Heathrow. Glad I fly aircraft and do not have to control them.:D

[SMOC]

Geriatric Jet Jugler,

I'll skip the fleet manager part of an organized social gathering and go straight for an informal meet at the "Slashers Arms", "Wrist Cutters" whatever they call it these days, how's that sound?

I've been to the tower a couple of times but not recently, a good experience and well recommended.

So anyone got a date they'd like to put forward? what's best for you Geriatric Jet Jugler and your buddies.

I do have one question what's with the chick and her "Welcome back" I know CX thinks flying planes is like a mission to mars but I never thought ATC did. :rolleyes:

[rodney rude]

How's this

On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"

He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."

We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.

NB - the controller was not a gweillo.

Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)

[Dragon69]

electricjetjock,

Please read my posts, I never said controlling was easy := . Every job has its challenges, they have theirs and we have ours. The established call is made 12 nm out, the call I made at 5nm was more of a friendly reminder. How can you possibly be more diplomatic than asking him if he wishes us to remain on his frequency :ugh:. Asking a question is not asking for a personalized service, having said that I am not flying my jet to please ATC, we all have our jobs to do, and if this particular controller is too sensitive to a harmless query, than I am afraid he is in the wrong line of work. I am sorry but you can't justify his actions no matter what the excuse. As I have said we are all professionals, and no one likes to be on the receiving end of a sarcastic remark, especially when it is not warranted. And YES I have previously visited a radar room.

[alatnariver]

I think the majority of pilots opoerating in and more important out of HKG are aware of the "mainland" problem.:ugh:
My point is, as long as there is no other means of flow control, slot allocation or metering, however you would like to call it, why not tell us that we have to wait due to, in this case, outbound traffic or a release from "the mainland" or what so ever.:rolleyes:
To get me right, flying to a lot of odd places around the globe, HKG atc is doing an excelent job, especially when keeping in mind the tiny airspace and the before mentioned "mainland problem". I am not fishing for compliments here, just to get this right.:=
This forum is a good place for ALL participating in aviation to share their opinions and last but not least to ask questions, rise concerns or even make a suggestion. Comunication is verything as we all certainly know.:ok:

[SMOC]

How's this

On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"

He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."

We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.

NB - the controller was not a gweillo.

Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)

I think he's pointing out that CX stopped planning FL370 some years ago due to these issues and our F-PLNs have a note to the effect of "Planned FL330 due ATC" and it's about time other carries started it, to help the worsening conditions in the HK FIR.

[SuzieWong]

Not an excuse for sarcasm on r/t, but morale in HK ATC is at the rock bottom right now.
Everyone, not just expats is unhappy with the situation the government has put us in.
Salary is back to before handover (most of us less than Cathay housing allowance :yuk: ), some have to do radar but not get paid for it:mad: . Allowances cut and continuous overtime (unpaid) is ongoing. Thousands of hours all together and seems they will have no chance to pay it back. Our leave roster put on the board today. In December only one, yes ONE, approach controller got leave, only ONE enroute controller got leave and 3 lucky people in the tower got leaves. Standby for mutiny!
Still traffic grows every month and AA wants more slots. Goverment has no forward thinking a few years back - froze recrutment, pay, training, force 10 expats to leave each year. Now they expect miracles.
Sorry to you guys if it means a lot more holding or delay at the gate but we are just as sick of it as you.
"Welcome Back" :ok:

[GlueBall]

SuzieWong: You are all doing a fantastic job, don't take it personal when a few tired, fatigued, aerial prima donnas get snappy over the radio.

Some people behind the wheel will always feel as if they are the only airplane in the sky. ...It's not just a problem confined to HKG. :p

[Bedder believeit]

No Glueball, you are wrong. We are not "all" doing a fantastic job, some definitely make things hard, not just for you drivers, but for some of us who have to work with these people. It is the same with your lot, there are great people to fly with, and there are (a small number of) a***holes who make life unpleasant, there always has been and always will be. The advantage that you have, is that if you are with a colleague who thinks that his (or her) middle name is Orville Wright, the chances are, is that you will say goodbye at the end of your flight, and you may not see them again. Not us, we have a far more intensively "group" type situation where by you can be assured that "Mr Difficult" today will be back at the workplace as "Mr Difficult" tomorrow, and still being the same unhelpful self. This applies equally to expats and locals. It would be good to have more social interaction between the two groups (pilot/ATC), but you know big cities, at the end of the day, one just wants to get home.

[alatnariver]

... but at least we, pilots and atc started talking here, better than nothing. We know far too less of each other in respect to our jobs.

[Liam Gallagher]

After 15 hours droning back from LA, a pretty voice saying "welcome back" is fantastic... long may it continue...............:D

[Kane Toed]

Yeah, I like his voice too...

[throw a dyce]

I found in HK that ATC management would always back the pilot rather than the controller.I had a case where a Dynasty just wouldn't get off the runway.It missed 3 high speed turnoffs at snail pace,nearly causing a go-around and then got on the wrong taxiway.I stopped him on the taxiway to let him get his bearing.The pilot then rang in to complain about me being rude,and ATC management were backing him (in local lingo of course).I nearly got the phone,and it would have made Billy Connolly look like saint.Lucky pilot.
Maybe that's why there are some nippy comments around.It's the controllers only chance.CAD management didn't back their controllers at all.:ugh:

[Viper2]

:oh: hahaha ... It is a funny and both interesting discussion indeed! Maybe sometimes people get a little bit snappy after long hours of duty (both pilots and ATC controllers). Shouldn't be like that but it happens.

If we have a delay for push-back I would appreciate ATC (time permitting) to tell me the reason and maybe an estimate. We have passengers on the aicraft as well and we would like to inform them as well. But, actually IMHO I think Hong Kong ATC provides a very good service despite the problems descriped by Suzy.

A funny thing is that for example in Shanghai where pushback delays are pretty common (up to 2 hours somtimes) the controllers always gives you the reason:

1) Due to seppalation;
2) Due to westwictions;
3) Due to ...................... standby ..... :}

It is always one of these three so no need to ask anymore. :ugh:

Talking about these experiences in mainland China. I have a question for any HKG controller on this board.

I recognize and read here that many of the problems in HKG airspace are caused by mainland China restrictions. However, when flying in Mainland China these restrictions only seem to apply for "foreign" companies. Many times I have been at the holding point at Chinese airport waiting and seeing chinese aircraft (pushed back long times after us) passing us and taking off from an earlier intersection going to the same area as our flight.

Apparantly there is no formal or political way to solve these problems. What about imposing the same policy to chinese aircraft as foreign aircraft suffer in mainland China? Maybe that solves or forces a solution to this problem? :confused:

[Bedder believeit]

Hi Viper (you weren't in "Top Gun" by any chance were you?).
Firstly, it is a fine line that one draws as to whether or not one tells an aircraft an expected push back time, as (a) we often give a time, and then the whole scenario is changed by our friends "up there", (2) often when we advise an aircraft who is "language challenged" of an expectation, then some times they will just go and push anyway, (3) it becomes a balancing act as to workload/time availability as to whether or not it is worthwhile giving expectations from our side of things. That may sound pathetic, but at 8.45 at night when ground is on combine and we are up to our armpits in towing aircraft around (often unnecessarily) at the airlines behest, and there are continuous arrivals arriving at "full bays", and everyone in the World wants a departure push back at the same time from adjacent bays...well it aint fun.

As to the people working in the Radar, let me assure you guys that after a couple of hours working approach or departures when it is busy and especially if there are lot's of weather deviations thrown in to boot, well that aint pretty either. Then there's a bit of a break and you come back in and do it all again. As "Dycey" says, you will get no support or back up from management, both at the intermediate level (shift supervisors) or higher up the chain. Anything that goes pear shaped is "your fault". Sure it can be argued, well "it's a democracy....why don't you walk?" well, not quite so easy. Many of the expats gave up a lot of security to come here, and have made significant family commitments to stay on...for the time being, so interesting times ahead if many more depart. When you consider that my overall package (salary and Accom. Allow) is about 25% lower than what it was 5 years ago.....

As far as your suggestion that we start to take things out on our airline friends from up North, you gotta be joking. The whole scenario here is bending over and doing whatever the people up there say. Some bright spark North of here decided recently that it would be a good idea if they implimented 10mins flow control between aircraft (regardless of level) going up A461 to Europe each night between 11 and 12.30. It just so happens that we have up to 10 departures going that way within about a 60 minute period, so one doesn't have to be Pythagoras to figure out where these departures have to be delayed. Instead of our management saying "stiff, we will send them as per the agreed values", we put up with it, and you guys have to take the consequences.

It's a cultural thing, around here the mainland is No 1 and we unfortunately have to kow tow to a certain extent. I do sympathise with Dragon 69, there are people who will cause a bit of angst, I don't know the answer, well, I do but this is supposed to be polite here, at least as someone else pointed out on this thread, there is some fairly open discussion taking place.

[throw a dyce]

Bedder,
In 5.5 years my pay has increased by 30% so that's a swing of about 55%.Maybe Dragon 69 has a point and you guys should consider joining the real world again.Leave CAD in a real pickle.CPA's vast profit flushed down the Fragrant Harbour.:D
If they tried that pay cut stunt here,all British airlines would be bankrupt.The strike would have been devastating.:}

[Viper2]

Hi Bedder,

Actually I applied for this position in the Top Gun movie but unfortunately I failed the selection. After trying a lot of other things the only job that worked out was to be a pilot ... :}

Thanks for your reply ... it makes some of the things going on here more clear. Just to make sure we do not have a misunderstanding: I find it a relief to get back into HKG airspace after a flight in mainland China. Especially when the weather is bad and a lot of stuff is going on! I can remember just recently the weather in the HKG area causing everybody to divert and I must say almost everything is possible. So no complaints at all!

I am surprised (and a little bit shocked) by hearing your story. I did not realize that our "friends" from the North are completely in controll of whatever is going on in HKG airspace (including the terms and conditions at HKG ATC). Maybe I should have know better. :eek:

Cheers and keep up the good work!

[SuzieWong]

Good to hear we get support from many pilots here.

Bedder
All ATC are having it tough at the moment but at least you expats can more easliy stand up to management to demand your rights because you are already at the top.
We hear the other voice which tells us that our career prospects will not be good if we don't come in on days off. What do we get? No overtime payment, just TOIL.
You notice nearly all leave has gone to expats because they have to give it to you but some of us have more than 100 days owing and no chance of getting it for a long time.
How can management get out of this? Last time they were lucky with SARS when they owe us more than 10000 hours and made us take leave.
This time we can't get it even if we want it!
Time for action.

[bekolblockage]

..... you can be assured that "Mr Difficult" today will be back at the workplace as "Mr Difficult" tomorrow, and still being the same unhelpful self.

I thought they got rid of "Mr Difficult" last month.:E

[Bedder believeit]

Yeah Suzie, I couldn't agree more. The locals are doing it much tougher than the expats, we tend to get away with things that the locals don't. The pay rates for junior ATCO's is pathetic. What to do?

[BusyB]

Suzie & Co,
Good to see your inputs here. Always a pleasure to get back in HKG airspace despite the odd grumpy sod. Yes, I like being"Welcome Home'd". Regards to whomever it is.

Good luck with pay and leave, we need it as much as you!!;)

[Dixi Normus]

As for the radio congestion, would it be easier if we could fly the 07L/R approaches as published from LIMES/SOKOE instead of radar vector? I would guess that 90% of the aircraft going into CLK are FMS/GPS equipped, so no problem with going off track. Just tell them to keep X-nm TCAS seperation and follow the published speed control. Anyone going out of line will be told to go-around. The new Director fq don't seem to improve on the radio congestion problem, just more fq change during a busy approach period. :confused: With that said, HKG ATC is still head and shoulder above the rest of Asia, keep up the good work! :ok:

[Geriatric Jet Jugler]

Dear Dragair 69
The responses that you have prompted clearly shows that there are many simmering frustrations amongst HK ATC that only need a little stir to become a boiling cauldron of anger and irritation. However we are all professionals and I agree we should not allow such issues to affect our operational performance.

To return to the original post concerning your ‘valid inquiry’. Now that you have provided some more information I hope I can provide you with rational and logical reasons/excuses/alibis as promised.

Are you aware of Hong Kong AIP Supplement A04/06 Introduction of Final Approach Radar Director Service at Hong Kong International Airport (or more likely, has your company told you about it) ? This states that Hong Kong Director (119.5) will closely monitor arriving traffic on intermediate and final approach and apply speed control to ensure the required spacing is achieved to maximize runway utilisation. Then look at the RWY 25L/25R ILS chart - the speed control is to cross 5 DME not less than 150 kt. Therefore the Director may retain arrivals until they have passed 5 miles from touchdown to ensure correct spacing and wake turbulence separation. On a good day with room to spare, the Director may transfer arrivals to the tower at 6 or 7 mile final.

Therefore your inquiry at 5 / 6 miles (different posts have different distances), the controller’s reply, then a transfer to tower a couple of seconds later, could be explained thus: the approach controller wanted to keep you on his frequency to maintain spacing with preceding or following traffic until ATC speed control was no longer applicable, at which time he transferred you to the tower. (Please note that this is one possible reason – there are many other scenarios involving dodgy winds, GFS or flight check aircraft.)

[throw a dyce]

Dixi,
Don't quite get your point here.The reason for having a Fin/Director is to spread the overall R/T burdon.For Fin to be working properly then you need 5 to 6 a/c on frequency at all time.He/She then just nails speeds,heading,spacing.But it will be a busy frequency when you are going for min vortex,or 3 miles.
Also by introducing reduced spacing,then there are more a/c in there,so R/T stays high.Best way is stick to standard R/T,listen out so nothing needs repeated,and change frequency WHEN TOLD.
When doing Fin here,I operate as you get an instruction once and I don't want to repeat it.You can lose separation very quickly with dosy pilots,or ones that want to do there own thing.:cool:
TCAS is not an ATC separation tool.Just to save your neck when we screw up!

[bamboosnake]

Rodney ...10min separation from china through Dotmi three overfliers at FL330 release you for your planned level FL370 and then you can't make it...now we need to force a twenty minute gap between the overfliers that may be airborne from Sydney etc.
The other night 4 long haul flights through Noman to sydney Melbourne etc released with separation according to flight planned or requested FL ie FL330,FL370,FL330 and FL370 second Cathay can't make his level now they end up 330 290 270 370 sorry number three but number 2 didnt let us know till airborne. It really does help our planning if you can reach the level flight planned or let us know b4 pushback...never mind not making your level restriction by DOFIN which is sooo dangerous
Moral is low and tensions are mounting...be warned..though we will try to keep our sense of humour...


How's this

On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"

He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."

We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.

NB - the controller was not a gweillo.

Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)

[moosp]

Most definitely they do not pay you enough. On a good relaxed day we get polite friendly control and advice. On a trough line day with Cb's all over with an evening complex, we get some of the finest controlling in the world.

Working in a muliti-cultural environment with variable RT competencies from the aircraft, you keep the stuff together. At ELATO or SIERRA when I change frequency I know I am not only home, but in safe hands.

Yes there will always be tensions with individuals on both ends of the RT. Live with it, humour them at both ends and remember that only pilots apologise, ATC does not. It is the protocol of aviation since Pontious. Live with that or go chicken farming.

Hong Kong does not do it often but sometimes a phone call afterwards to the duty oficer is a very good way of calming the frustrations of missed communications on arrival. I've done it a couple of times and been humbled by my simplistic problem being explained as part of their total problem.

And yes, you can welcome me back anytime. I think you begin to recognise our voices as we learn to recognise yours in ATC.

[Dragon69]

Dear jugler,

I was never arguing why at 6/5 miles I was still on app. frequency, I was merely making an inquiry to make certain he hadn't forgotten to switch us over, and please note that director frequency was not being used at the time. I wholeheartedly understand that there could be a number of reasons why I was left on app. freq. with 6/5 miles to touchdown, but it is not the norm. I would rather make an inquiry at 6/5 miles rather than 4/3 miles. My whole point was that his reply was out of line and unwarranted, nothing more nothing less, a more diplomatic reply would have gotten the message across. I do not pretend to be one of the Wright brothers, nor do I believe that I am the only traffic in HKG airspace, but I also shouldn't feel that I need to submit my inquiries to a review board before transmitting. I think the majority of us are experienced enough to differentiate between necessary and unnecessary queries, especially during peak periods.

Since you brought up the 150 kts + at 5 miles ie. 1500', and please understand that I am bringing this point as a discussion only. I think it is fair to say that the majority do not adhere to that. Operationally, we have to be at approach speed with thrust above idle by 1000', or the approach is deemed to be unstable. A light airbus will have an approach speed of around 135kts. Factor in a light tailwind, such has been the case on numerous occasions recently, and unless you start slowing the airplane from 180 kts at 8 miles, there will be a good chance that you will not achieve the required stable approach criteria. My whole point here is that from our perspective, at 5 miles, despite any speed control, most of us are already closer to approach speed. This is open for discussion and I would like to hear from others regarding the speed control at 5 miles on 25 and 07. Also, in our JEP page 10-4, it states " The published speed restrictions for the final approach segment are applicable for the Continuous Descent Approach procedure" Hence, if you are not on a CDA procedure, and have been cleared the procedural ILS, according to Mr. Jep you are not required to adhere to the published speed restrictions on final. Any thoughts from aircrew and controllers?

[SMOC]

Here is some good gen I received recently.

from Hong Kong Air Traffic Management standards section.

FL 130 at MELON/MANGO

Q: When initially cleared to be FL 130 at MELON/MANGO, then approaching these points ATC clears the aircraft to an altitude, do I still have to adhere to the FL 130 restriction?

A: No. Clearance to an altitude cancels previous restrictions, unless specifically stated otherwise by ATC.



8000FT at TD/TH

Q: When on approach to RWY 25, do I have to cross TD/TH at 8000FT?

A: No. This is a procedural restriction only, ATC clearance to an altitude lower than 8000FT automatically cancels this restriction.



SPEED CONTROL

Q 1: When ATC clears you for high speed through MELON/MANGO, does the 250KTS below FL110 still apply?

A 1: No. The high speed clearance applies until further advised by ATC.


Q 2: When cleared high speed do the final approach speed controls still apply?


A 2: Yes. As at any busy airport, strict adherence to final approach speed controls is essential, to allow ATC to maximize runway usage.

This is the stuff I like to find out from ATC, so looking forward to an informal beer!

[Oasis]

For me, it's joy to come back to hong kong airspace at the end of a few days of regional flying.
I really do think you guys working the radar and the tower are the best in asia.

But now a question: what is the longest ammount of time a controller could be on duty?

keep up the good work:D

[bamboosnake]

Oasis,
Normally we do not work more than a ten hour shift..standard pattern is a ten day cycle 2 afternoons 2 mornings 2 night shifts syandard shift 8 to ten hours long ..
on radar for max 2 hours then a break of up to an hour and back for more.
Thanks for the encouraging comments..more than we get from management.:D

[Dixi Normus]

Dyce,
Point taken with the Director Fq and the TCAS seperation, totally agreed. Still why the extra radar vector for 07 when it is pretty much the same as the publish approach track from LIMES/SOKOE? You can still give us speed control for spacing until tower handover and it would save on radio congestion. It will also let us plan our descent profile without worrying about short cuts (or late turns) for LOC intercept.

[throw a dyce]

Dixi,
I'm all for letting a/c do there own thing when possible,but having 5 a/c close together,on base leg for 07,wandering around is really :eek: .You'd have to vertically separate,because they are basically on their own navigation,so you can't prove separation to the powers that be.
Also with the best will in the world,a/c doing these self positions to centre fixes or whatever,are all over the place.A good Fin can put them on the ILS very accurately.If the numbers are limited on Fin to 5 or 6 then R/T loading is ok.
If the airport continues to grow then the hourly rate has to go up.Heathrow are doing 2.5 mile spacing in the right conditions.It can be done.Everyone has to get up to speed.The CAD has to open their eyes.Kai Tak is gone.:ugh:

[Wontonpussy]

A lot of friendly banter here guys n dolls......"Dragqueen 69"..."Ball juggler".

In the mire is a suggestion for a few drinks...for genuine pressure relief and lubrication, I suggest Nana Plaza later in the month. Dragqueens and Ball jugglers are readily available there.


"roll me in honey and throw me to the Lesbians"


:ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :) :) :) :) :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

[mairyhinge]

Whats with the approach controller telling us to keep 210 kts to 12 miles, then change to tower who then informs us that windshear is reported ? This then leaves us with having to reconfigure the aircraft for a windshear technique approach, and change in Vapp and to be configured and stabilized by 1500 feet instead of 1000 feet. Is it possible for the approach controller to talk to the tower controller and vice versa and to then realise that a more conservative speed control is now necessary ?
This is by no means an attack on ATC but rather a question about comunication between controllers and whether they are taking actual conditions into account ?
Peace :confused:

[throw a dyce]

I thought windshear reports went out on the ATIS with a report time,where,altitude etc.Unless it had just happened?

[kellykelpie]

Hi SMOC,

Thanks for the information;

I find Hong Kong ATC the best around. Went in yesterday and we landed as aircraft had just exited high speed taxiway. He was told to expedite. We touched down just behind him and were told to expedite. As we pulled off you could see the next one over the fence. If only Singapore ATC went to Hong Kong for training:(

It is the only place we go (Jetstar Asia) where we touch down consistantly earlier than plan.

Good on you Hong Kong ATC:ok:

[valeriey]

Whats with the approach controller telling us to keep 210 kts to 12 miles, then change to tower who then informs us that windshear is reported ? This then leaves us with having to reconfigure the aircraft for a windshear technique approach, and change in Vapp and to be configured and stabilized by 1500 feet instead of 1000 feet. Is it possible for the approach controller to talk to the tower controller and vice versa and to then realise that a more conservative speed control is now necessary ?
This is by no means an attack on ATC but rather a question about comunication between controllers and whether they are taking actual conditions into account ?
Peace :confused:
CPA never gave the controller a crash course on how to fly their aeroplane, 210 to 12 is to try to help you stay clean and save 50 cents worth of fuel. If you can't do it, tell us. If the windshear is reported for the first time then you will have to do what you need to do. We separate traffic first and foremost. We have no idea that you need to stablize by 1500 and not 1000 as most other airlines do under the circumstances. Most controllers are fed up with you guys who thinks that yours is the only aeroplane in the sky and expect us to know how to serve everyone of you.

[christn]

Hmmmm! I guess you must be 'Mr Difficult'

[ClearedIGS]

Mairyhinge – To sum up some of the above threads, most pilots think ATC know the profiles of the aircraft they fly, the company SOPs and even the engine fail procedures for their specific aircraft type and Company. We don’t. Your company doesn’t tell us, the manufacturer doesn’t tell us and you can’t learn about it from a Flight magazine.
We have around 70 regular operators into CLK flying everything from Biz-jets to 747’s and all have different SOPs, even for the same aircraft types. As ‘valeriey’ says, if you can’t do something or are uncomfortable with the instructions given to you, tell us and then tell us what you can do. We will then do our very best to modify what we are doing to suit the situation. (Relative positions, levels and speeds of other aircraft ahead and behind you will have a bearing on this). The earlier you tell us, the more likely you will get what you want.
As for the windshear warnings, if it’s forecast, or observed, it will be on the ATIS. If it’s a warning which has only just occurred, it is given to you when you call the tower, which in turn is usually before 5 miles. Also remember that all windshear warnings are based on LOW LEVEL warnings, i.e. below 900’ and only for final approach or departure which is defined in the Hong Kong AIP as the final 3 nm to touchdown or the first 3nm on departure. When I last looked 900’ is below the 1000’ you should be stabilized anyway.

[BusyB]

valeriey,

"Most controllers are fed up with you guys who thinks that yours is the only aeroplane in the sky and expect us to know how to serve everyone of you."

No, there's 100 of our aeroplanes in the sky. I don't think that post was saying that in the sense you've taken it. Yes, there are difficult people in the sky and on the ground but lets keep it in proportion.:=

[throw a dyce]

So when are they going to recruit Gweilos again? There must be a retirement bulge coming up with both local and expat.
I have no intention of going back even if they asked me,( which is very unlikely):} ! Did my stint of Dogs and Babies land.:p. Hey,Boss Norman are you reading this?:ooh: ;)

[mairyhinge]

Valeriey my dear, if you slow down and re-read my original post you will see I was not attacking ATC but rather asking a question. So please take a minute to comprehend the post.

The windshear was not on the atis. I understand that ws can happen suddenly so there is not always time. The configuration change was necessary but not impossible. I think you will find that most airlines configure early in conditions where there is windshear and or poor weather / visiblity.

IGS, comments noted and you are quite correct, better for us to speak up at the time.

Again not an attack on the job done by the sometimes overly sensitive (Valeriey) ATC

The Hinge

[SuzieWong]

This topic got a lot of interest at work lately. Seems a lot of colleages ready to take some action over their leave and pay. Maybe next month is not a good time to fly from HK?:oh:

[Beta Light]

Came in today on an emergency, asked for return to Hong Kong. A BIG thank you to the guys/ girls on duty.... a great job, you took a load of our shoulders. Was given good steers with relevant info. e.g. track miles to go. On asking which runway to expect we were given wind directions on all thresholds and asked which we preferred. After touch down we were given good info. after the roll out by tower. Don't want to go into to much detail, but it show we can bitch about everyday ops. as much as we like, but this afternoon showed that when the chips are down you delivered the goods.
:ok:

P.S. It sounded like the supervisors / senior controllers took over when we declared emergency, or was that just the adrenaline pumping?

[RRSM]

As a VHHH controller, here are a few comments to pilots who complain about negative comments and worse from ATC. Sure, we sometimes get sarcastic and make comments to pilots who either don't listen or don't comply. Please consider our situation, though:

The Government & Joseph Wong and his gang have cut our salaries 3 times. We are now back at 1997 levels. There seems no realistic hope of any increase in the coming years. With family commitments, I am finding it increasingly hard to meke ends meet financially.

"The Employer's MPF contribution" is actually taken from our gratuity. So in reality, we are forced to invest 2000 HKD per month in a fund we would normally not touch with a barge pole. The employer's contribution is ZERO!

Due to staff shortage leave is almost impossible to get now. The ATCO leave programme tells its own tale: In December TWO radar controllers got leave. Our incompetent management could not care less and basically sit in their offices with their heads up their rear ends. Why should they care? Airplanes generally still take off and land on time. Their leave is guaranteed at Christmas, CNY and Easter. They are - at best - still in Kai Tak - 200 movements per day-mode. At worst, simply petty bureaucrats awaiting their pension. They certainly have no idea how to run a busy ATC unit. To add insult to injury, a recent memo was issued with a warning that management reserves the right to cancel already approved leave with short notice. Not that there is a lot left for them to cancel.

The poor locals are having an even harder time regarding leave. The main difference between them and the expats here is that they are easier to bully as they have a "career" to protect. Some of them have now reached the maximum number of days they are allowed to accrue, (varying from 40 to 180 days) but still cannot get any leave. Our friendly management has told them they must expect to simply lose the leave due to "critical staff shortage". Hardly legal, but our so-called union cannot help. They must also protect their careers, of course.

Last week, one of the nazis from the fourth floor spotted a controller on a shuttle bus 30 minutes before he was expected to leave work. With great management skills the the manager investegated this extremely important matter and had words with the supervisor who released his controller before the end of his shift. The ATCO has been deducted 30 minutes from his TOIL balance and memos reminding staff not to leave early have been issued. No doubt, the ATCO's name can be found in the dreaded "pink book" where all dirty deeds such as this one are carefully noted and kept forever. Useful information for future reference!

With a critical staff shortage, management still run SAR courses and send people overseas for various Mickey Mouse courses. The sad reality of today is that the front line controllers are paying the price for years of mismanagement and poor planning. The problem is massive and gets bigger every day. To say that staff morale is low is the understatement of the year!

Additionally, we daily have to cope with the increasingly ridiculous Fred Flintstones restrictions imposed by ATC China. "10 minutes via Bekol, irrespective of level - you are number 8!".Try telling that to an impatient aircrew. It would be great to see restriction on traffic ENTERING HK FIR for a change - especially with bad weather around. However,this will not happen as it means standing up to big brother.


I know we are free to walk out in search of greener pastures, but this is easier said than done. But I do feel that most of the controllers are rapidly approaching the breaking point. The number of daily movements have doubled since the opening of CLK, but our conditions have constantly deteriorated. On top of that AA are still pushing for more landing slots.

So for all you CX, KA and other drivers out there: We are really sorry if we bark at you at times. We know we should be courteous and professional, we know we have a job because of you and not the other way around. But enough is enough. We despise the people we work for and are very, very angry. Frankly, many of us can be compared to Krakatoa in the days leading up to the explosion in 1883. Please try to bear with our grumpiness - it has nothing to do with you!

[WeeJohnPooPongMcPlop]

RRSM - thanks for all that, explains a lot.
Still not sure why that lady on ground freq tells everyone to "standby" on first contact EVERYTIME, thus increasing her own workload .:ok:

[RRSM]

WeeJohn....!
My pleasure!
Please be advised that we have more than 40 ladies with a valid Ground rating plus quite a few on training. It will thus be hard to identify "the lady on ground".

There can be a number of reasons to say "standby" - sometimes the controller just needs to think. If it happens all the time it could be that she "needs a little more experience". Some of them are very green and you are a lot more likely to get a "standby" with no explanation given from somebody on training.

I think a lot of pilots would benefit significantly from sitting next to a controller during a busy spell - Tower, Approach or Area Radar. This is the only way that you guys will get to appreciate what we are doing and why we are doing it - maybe! A bunch of pilots herded through the ATCX by a CAD official is a complete waste of time. Come closer, plug in and have a casual chat to the controllers if you can!

[Sqwak7700]

Ahh yes...the "Almighty Traffic Cone". The great adversary. Many have met their demise when confronted by the Traffic Cone. :} :} :} :}

I would have taken a picture too. I'll be laughing at that one for a while.

[octanecolt]

You go there Girl ! ... and tell it like it is.. Sincerely, it doesn't sound at all good for HK ATC at present... Just hope things improve for you all.

Have to say, that in my now many years of flying out of Kai Tak and CLK... HK ATC have provided excellent service. Indeed there are many constraints that you have to deal with.... Airspace, Traffic Coordination across the border, the odd Typhoon here and there....Inspite of all, you all do a great job and do your level best to provide safe and efficient control of the airspace. Thanks a heap to all.... We appreciate your efforts immensely.

As for my favourite on the frequencies, whom I affectionately call "Mr Grumpy" ...(we all know his voice well and the term Mr Grumpy is really a term of endearment, so don't take offence matey)... he really isn't all that mean. He's an ACE controller, along with the many others in HK... and actually I quite get a tickle when he pulls some wayward aviators in to line from time to time.... I just quiver in my seat if I've given him cause to bark at me !

[tolosweetpea]

If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.

I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.

APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.

HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.

For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.

The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.

BFN
tolosweetpea

[mr plot]

RRSM

1) $100000 a month and can't support your family?!:sad: how many children do you have?

2) Half an hour early? I thought he was two and a half early!:=

But I agree with your views of the management, they are a hopeless bunch. The ex chief has gone with heaps of $$ but wait... he's back for more as our chief planner of the new ATC building. Can't get any worse.:ugh:

HK ATC has a shoe shining culture. The people at the top are not there on merits and the same goes to the "stand by ladies".

[uncle4]

If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.

I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.

APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.

HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.

For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.

The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.

BFN
tolosweetpea

:= Who says we doing less than 5 nm?? Totally WRONG! Which part of MATC??
You are misleading the flying public!!

STOP DOING LESS THAN 5, until management says YES. Our job in the Tower can be much easier. Sick of APP giving spacing less than minimum wake turbulence ... there may be an accident soon :=

[Five Green]

I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.

I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK.

APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.

The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.

BFN
tolosweetpea


Easy sweet pea. Flight crew fly to airports all over the globe (as I am sure you are aware) so rather than saying that something happens far to often, maybe stop and think that there might be a reason ? Most airports transfer a/c on to tower at about the same time ( 1500'-2000' feet on the glide slope) so if you are holding them longer than the norm then you will get questioned as flight crew start to squirm, because guess what ATC occasionally drop the ball too !

Also many flight crew may not have been to Hong Kong in years. They may be tired as well so have a little sypathy as I have for the pressures you are under.

I am not sure that I want to be cleared to land by approach !

Regarding speed restrictions, it happens quite often that you are maintining the speed asked for and getting in to high and hot and want to slow down when all the while the speed was not required. So again the flight crew are getting skittish. maybe the initial speed restriction should have an expected end point ie maintinan 250 to 15 dme...to limes (yeah right ) or something.

Cheers

[Carnage Matey!]

You could probably save a lot of RTF by telling us how many track miles to touchdown you are planning for us on first contact so we don't have to guess how tight you are planning to vector us. This is standard practice at LHR and reduces stress levels all round.

[uncle4]

:\ What is going on at this place ... no leave, heavy workload, low in morale and what not! No discipline, no standard, yeahhhh.

The place is in a mess ... poor management. Yes, VERY POOR.

That guy from 4th floor keeps coming up. We see him in the center, see him in the reading room and restroom .... what does he do? I checked - he is in charge of Training, why the s:mad: t is he in the center all the time. ops is not his responsibility .... he thinks he is Mr Everything.

And that guy you recently re hired ...... We have a pretty bad center, now we will have a new BAD center

oh no!:ugh:

[Bedder believeit]

To Carnage

Heathrow is a totally different situation to HK. There is virtually no high terrain around Heathrow, You don't have a "no go" international border as HK does just 3 NM from base leg (for 07); At LHR aircraft can join the LLZ from about 6 miles from touchdown all the way out to God only knows where. Take the SIERRA drop in's for instance, some times it will not be known that this track shortening will be available until you have passed South of Sierra. Quite often it is a quickly agreed shortening after fairly serious co-ordination between (possibly) 4 different/busy terminal area controller's (each with their own requirements), and then it is juggle juggle trying to fit you in. Because this has happened it may mean that other traffic has to be widened out a bit, or even shortened, so where the hell has your great "track miles from touch down" gone to now. The bottom line is: North runway generally for landers, so we can more efficiently release departures; We try to sequence arrivals as close to the required sep minima as possible to have the most expeditious landing sequence; This place is very restricted for aispace usability because of the proximity of Chinese and Macau airspace, and high terrain; and no, it is not more efficient to allow aircraft to "fly the approaches by themselves" as the amount of RTF that would be going on in the speed control department would drive you mad and us mad. It's all pretty simple really, until the Wx turns to c**p.

HKG has an very narrow arrivals gate (particularly for 07) and I have read elsewhere on PPrune, someone suggesting that if crews don't play the correct "speed" game, then we take them out of the sequence. Well, to where? All that does is create a dangerous situation with (often poor English skilled) pilots not knowing what is going on, below the Min Radar Vector alt, and then we have one extra aircraft to later fit in (maybe at the expense of you)! Once an order is set in motion it becomes difficult to change, this is one of the reasons why Runway changes can be so labourious and time consuming.

Much of this stuff has been addressed before, but then I guess you can't be expected to know that.

[Carnage Matey!]

BB

My airlines flights generally land around 1200-1600L in HKG, and certainly on the earlier flights it seems to be pretty quiet around there. My experience of vectoring to 07L seems to be that its a buggers muddle. One day you'll turned in for a tight base leg having to throw every source of drag out just to stay on the profile, the next you'll be vectored miles downwind and end up dragging it in level at 1500ft. Surely by the time people are turning downwind you must have a good idea of how many miles we've got left to go?

[moosp]

Bedder, Thanks for that, the more you ATC'rs get your point of view across to pilots the better (or bedder?) we all are. Our line ops people talk to you, and there is the users meeting every month or so. As line pilots we then get a filtered version of the meetings.

What we need is a kind of FAQ for operators into Hong Kong.

I mean if CX and Dragon pilots on here are not sure of what is best for you , how can the rest of the world have a chance? This is a good informal place to learn what works for you guys and you can hear our bitches, and then neutralise them with the reason why we can't have what we want.

As an aside, flying into CLK the other day with a trough line and CBs that turned our wx radars red like a butchers apron, we got every avoidance we needed and landed after half an hour. It was hard work. My perceptive FO pointed out that radar probably still had another six hours of shift to go with those conditions.

So most of us do appreciate what you do...

[localTCN]

If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.

I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.

APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.

HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.

For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.

The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.

BFN
tolosweetpea

How about this: On our descend clearance, "...Maintain high speed on descend and high speed though Melon..." so to help our OTP and others', we maintain 320kts all the way and we change the "box" (ops! I mean the FMC). Just before Melon, get told to reduce to 250kts NOW. How often does it occur? A lot!! So, I really want to know "what speed do you want us to fly?" and I mean it.

[Bedder believeit]

Hi Carnage (Good Nom de Plume)

You are being too general. One day at 12.30 it can be quiet, and the next it can be chaos. If, (as most of the time when it is "quiet") you are passing SIERA and given a turn for obvious track shortening, then knock it back. Do the whole STAR and your FMC will be able to tell you how many track miles you have to go....probably about 80 I would say. I have the sneeking impression that you fly for "The airline". Well it just so happens that we notice that you people are notorious for landing long (on 07L) to your E gates on the North apron. I will offer this to you until the cows come home ...if it is available, but when your lot take liberties that inconvenience others, then the next time it might not be offered. I am not trying to tell you for one second that everything that happens with HK ATC is good, or can be justified in every circumstance, at times we have a lot to answer for, but as the ratio of crews operating into here that have poor English skills increase, well I can assure you that our workload will increase and the nicities will gradually fade away.

For you to post here "At Heathrow blah blah blah..." is like me posting to you "At Cathay blah, blah, blah..." It is irrelevant. We have a system with a big mix of expats from all over the place (including ex EGLL) and an increasing number of low experience locals. Most of the time people are trying their best under the circumstances. Let's face it "track miles to run" is at best an (educated) guess on our part, and can be reasonably well figured out by you people using the resources that you have at hand... your experience; the runway in use; your NAV display; where you are being vectored to; listening to what you think will be the next aircraft ahead; your TCAS; fighting with your F/O...etc.

Not trying to dismiss your query, it's all relevant, however, you really need to consider both sides of the story. Operating a large heavy jet with other traffic can have it's frustrations, but you just have to live with it. As I said in a previous post, one of our tasks is to align the traffic flow in a reasonably sane order to land given wake turbulence and other considerations, and it becomes "juggle juggle" to a certain extent. You might want "track miles to run" (at SIERA) but if we are on 25R you will pass through the hands of 4 controllers before you call the Tower, and not each has the time to try and second guess what the other is going to do with you. So as I said above, we can only come up with an eduated guess with track miles, which as often as not will be no more accurate that what you yourself can figure out in the cockpit.

Hi Moosp, thanks for the (as usual) kind words. You are correct, some sort of dialogue would be useful, but I think for the time being we will have to annonymously "PPrune" it. I do think that "pilots visiting ATC" with useful periods of interface would be good, but trying to get our management to provide the resources required is an issue. It's unfortunate that access to the centre/tower is pretty restrictive, that will remain a problem. As for the talks between your "line ops" and "you", I guess you mean our management. We rarely get feedback from that. What is needed is for line pilots (say groups of 5) to have the opportunity to come and plug in for a couple of hours. I don't know what sort of interest there would be. With CX pilots being scattered all over the World doesn't help, but I guess slots could be reserved for those staying at the Headland on layovers....KA guys are more "local" ....just thoughts!

[tolosweetpea]

Easy sweet pea. Flight crew fly to airports all over the globe (as I am sure you are aware) so rather than saying that something happens far to often, maybe stop and think that there might be a reason ? Most airports transfer a/c on to tower at about the same time ( 1500'-2000' feet on the glide slope) so if you are holding them longer than the norm then you will get questioned as flight crew start to squirm, because guess what ATC occasionally drop the ball too !

Also many flight crew may not have been to Hong Kong in years. They may be tired as well so have a little sypathy as I have for the pressures you are under.

I am not sure that I want to be cleared to land by approach !

Regarding speed restrictions, it happens quite often that you are maintining the speed asked for and getting in to high and hot and want to slow down when all the while the speed was not required. So again the flight crew are getting skittish. maybe the initial speed restriction should have an expected end point ie maintinan 250 to 15 dme...to limes (yeah right ) or something.

Cheers

I was tired when I posted my rant - so unreserved apologies for being so hard. I stand by my points however.

A better way for 69 or other crews to go is to state their callsign and distance from touch down - this avoids a loaded question and sticks to the facts. It also leads the controller to a simple - but not necessarily pleasurable:-) '... roger' as a suitable reply or to assess the separation and transfer to TWR if appropriate. Sometimes the way we say a thing makes a big difference. And added advantage is it allows a cross check between navaid, radar, nav equip on the range from touchdown.

If APP issue a landing clearance they do it on ADC's behalf - ADC will have applied the same criteria to their decision as they would if they passed it directly to the a/c themselves and then told APP - who then pass it to the a/c for ADC. I can't see a problem with that - it must surely be better than a late freq change and rushed clearance. Many clearances are passed on behalf of others in all ATC systems everywhere all the time - for example when crossing FIR or ATC sector boundaries a/c do it on a clearance from the receiving FIR or sector but passed by the transferring sector. If you have and emergency then APP keeping you will avoid a freq change when your workload is high. In bad wx with many missed approaches keeping a/c and passing landing clearances may also be the better way the manage the traffic.

I can only speak for myself on the speeds - I avoid hot high and issue appropriate speeds based on many years of ATC experience here and abroad. I base my final issued speed on the published procedural approach speeds and don't issue speeds above 210 that would apply on the glide. I have witnessed some of the less experienced ATC here issuing inappropriate speeds and I'm with you regarding that. But sometimes I do get it wrong or can't get in to make a change in time - I'm human like us all.

tolosweetpea

[tolosweetpea]

Who says we doing less than 5 nm?? Totally WRONG! Which part of MATC??
You are misleading the flying public!!

STOP DOING LESS THAN 5, until management says YES. Our job in the Tower can be much easier. Sick of APP giving spacing less than minimum wake turbulence ... there may be an accident soon

Now I can quote the MATC sections but it will take up quite a bit of forum space - and you have access to a copy and should know the relevant parts just as I do. Now if I'm not mistaken 5NM is min wake for a medium behind a heavy. In some circumstances we can use 4NM (also in MATC) and that is min wake between to heavies. The figures in the MATC are in any case about spacing NOT separation - for this HK uses ICAO radar and wake separations (see Doc 4444) and until HK files a difference and publishes it in the AIP these apply at HK. Another critical word in the MATC is 'should' - this has a particular meaning in aviation. I suggest that you go and read again the relevant parts.

I did not suggest that APP should ever provide less than the minimum separation and I don't. Your post is inaccurate and what has 'accident' to do with what I'd said earlier? If ICAO says that 3nm is safe between two mediums why should it be different here at HK - the laws of physics apply here the same at they do elsewhere in our current understanding of reality.

The 4th floor should however be explaining the the airlines why (and for years) arriving a/c have been delayed by vector, speed, and holding to supply extra spacing (not separation). For what reasons? Just what are ADC doing with the runway during this time?

It is not a safety issue in normal operating conditions - can be for some wx and runway mixes so we then use appropriate separation and procedures in those cases. Speak to the 4th floor APP guys - I hear that they have been tacitly and in fact specifically face to face approving min wake for the last two years - it is safe and expeditious to use appropriate international standard separations used all around the world. ATC must be safe, orderly, and expeditious - all three parts are required before we can say that we have done a good job (Safety having the highest priority and made a given in any situation).

HK has a final director now. HK has published reduced runway separation procedures - these are in place so that the unit can move to using all it's runway capacity. Slots have been and are limited at HK by CAD without compelling technical reasons.

I'm not tired today so you got the printable version of the reply:-)

tolosweetpea.

[tolosweetpea]

BB

My airlines flights generally land around 1200-1600L in HKG, and certainly on the earlier flights it seems to be pretty quiet around there. My experience of vectoring to 07L seems to be that its a buggers muddle. One day you'll turned in for a tight base leg having to throw every source of drag out just to stay on the profile, the next you'll be vectored miles downwind and end up dragging it in level at 1500ft. Surely by the time people are turning downwind you must have a good idea of how many miles we've got left to go?

ATC should always get track miles when on vectors - I agree completely - if the freq is not saturated (it can get that way at hk) then I and many others will give track miles and even vectoring intentions if it as an inventive plan. Some at ATC HK let the others down by neglecting to pass track miles to a/c on vectors. I don't give miles to glass cockpit a/c if I take them via direct fixes on the STAR - I understand that you will have the miles on your FMS or be able to work it out without to much difficulty.

BFN
tolosweetpea

[Re-entry]

Totally concur with moosp. We really appreciate the great job you guys do. I think it should be part of our formal training to understand what ATC is about. Not just learn it from anonymous websites like this.

[throw a dyce]

Bedder,
Am I right in thinking back that there are holds at Soko and TD?.If there were would they help.Get the inbounds holding closer in and run the outbounds out underneath.
Also what is the minimum radar spacing.Have you got 3 miles,or 5 miles.TAD
Ps
Oh and how much is a DB dinky,sorry golf cart.I want to soup one up with a model aircraft engine.

[Dragon69]

If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.

Staying on APP freq at 6 miles is just as silly as me asking whether we need to be on Tower freq. At 6 miles I am on the LANDING phase not the APPROACH phase. Your US or European equivalent from LAX to JFK to FRA to LHR would have switched me to Tower shortly after being established on the localizer, usually around 12 to 8 miles out, so no need to doubt what their response would have been, because it is not a issue anywhere else but HK. Your primary task as APP. controller is to vector airplanes onto the localizer with the appropriate spacing. How can you possibly control me at 6 miles when I am already established on the ILS and can ONLY give you the approach speed of the airplane. Switching airplanes to Tower freq. that late in the landing phase is a useless practice. If you follow ICAO standards, then switch airplanes to Tower at the appropriate time or distance. I can't ever recall being switched to Tower that late, EVER, ANYWHERE, so if it is it not the norm, which I know it isn't, even in HKG, asking a question for a situation that is not the NORM is perfectly valid and not SILLY. What's next, taxi clearance to the bay issued by App.:ugh:

[bekolblockage]

RRSM
1) $100000 a month and can't support your family?!:sad: how many children do you have?

Just slightly less than you have Grandmothers, I suspect. ;)
Last time I checked, the top of ATCO II had been cut by $10,000 a month to less than 3/4 of that. :*

Dragon69
Its certainly not uncommon for aircraft elsewhere to be told to call the Tower at the outer marker i.e. under 4NM.
With HK operating a much higher % mix of Heavy than any of the airports you mention, the compression factor on final becomes critical for wake turbulence sep. Holding a/c on APP freq until 5NM is certainly no big deal.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Staying on APP freq at 6 miles is just as silly as me asking whether we need to be on Tower freq. At 6 miles I am on the LANDING phase not the APPROACH phase.>>

I only just saw this thread.. all very sad. However, to Dragon69... your perspective of the situation may vary greatly with that of ATC. There is nothing remotely unusual about an aircraft still talking to Approach at 6nm. I spent 31 years as a Heathrow Radar Contoller and kept thousands of aircraft until that ranage, and well inside that sometimes. Under certain conditions, eg SRAs, Visual Approaches, APP may retain control until much later on final, even until after touchdown. Technically, radar may be responsible for spacing on final approach and not the tower so it is entirely up to the controller and not you when he transfers you to the tower.

[throw a dyce]

HD,
I still think that SRA's and Visuals are big ''Cannot'' in HK.They had a new high definition radar for parallel approaches,but I don't think it's been used,and certainly not for SRA's.The Airport can be seen from space,but visuals were strickly out.How did they land?? Flight checking seemed every 2 weeks,and they withdraw the aid from use prior to it.Why? 10 bucks
I'm afraid as a Nats trained controller,the way things are done in HK are strange.Blue strips for inbounds,buff for outbounds.:ugh: :hmm: You have to forget how to shift traffic,turn your training on it's head,and don't F:mad: up.No union to back you up,and a management you will blame you even if you're on leave.They roster you on extra days,for days leave,then rob you of the TOIL.
It's ATC JIM,but not as we know it.:8

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a/c on radar frequency inside 6 miles as well.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK.. No, I wasn't NATS trained, only for radar. I was doing it long before NATS, overseas too! I was just pointing out, following some fairly hysterical ranting, that the transfer to the tower can be well inside 6nm and is entirely at the discretion of the controller. If that doesn't apply in HK I apologise.

[BusyB]

I have to say that it really doesn't matter to me if I'm on radar to 4-5 miles.
l
I have had unhelpful controling and great controling in HKG.

I'm also embarrassed by colleagues and other pilots requesting WX avoidence on Approach control when the controller is obviously overworked/stretched and there isn't a cloud over 10,000' in the area!

I'm always happy to hear HKG controlers they mostly rank well with european airports and beat the USA.

If I have a peeve its having to wait/delay for freighters to land on 07R when 07L is for landings for everyone else.:ok:

p.s. I don't think I can spell.

[throw a dyce]

HD,
The system of transferring a/c to Tower is the same for HK and LL.I think that the point about the controller being ratty has caused some of the background info to come up.Also the locals are petrified of management,and a lot of gweilos don't want to rock the boat:oh: .If you got a hint of a black mark then you were out.
Busy B,
I got carpeted for landing a CPA inbound for E4 on 07R at 00.30.The second Heathrow was waiting for connecting pax.Everyone said thanks very much.Following day got well bollocked by CAD := cos 07L is landing runway.:ugh: Why? god knows 10 bucks.
It's the whole mind set of CAD management with their brains frozen onto the Kai Tak checker board that is causing issues.They are total dinosaurs.
Ps I canny spell neither.

[Bedder believeit]

For Busy B, here are the guidlines for runway arrival usage, when both runways are available (most of the time).
Between 12.30pm and 2000 (local) all aircraft (and this should be reflected on the ATIS) are to land on the North runway (07L or 25R). Outside of the above hours, Freighters, BAC (business aircraft) and GFS (2 Jetstreams) will normally be directed to the South runway (07R & 25L). During the first period above, at the discretion of AMS (Aerodrome Movements South - 118.4), cargo etc may be offered the South runway if it is felt that departures will not be unduly affected/delayed. During the "outside of the above hours", then AMS (or APP for that matter) may enforce individual or groups of freigters etc to land on the North.
The disadvantages for APP is that successive South landers need to be sequenced at least 8 NM in trail, where as this is not the case to the North. Freighters tend to arrive in groups, so the 8 NM issue does raise it's head. The disadvantages for the Tower with South landers is that many aircraft these days have time critical departure slots, and one or more landers on the South can stuff things up. Another disadvantage for the Tower during the "first" period, is the lengthy taxi back to South side parking and the subsequent need to cross 07R/25L.

It is purely a judgement call as to whether or not a decision will be made to alter the normal landing runway for freighter etc aircraft. The call is normally made by AMS and it needs to be done some 10 to 15 minutes ahead of landing time. this means that the AMS needs to have a fairly healthy idea of potential departures (particularly on 25L as the taxi distances are much shorter).

Maybe Dragon69 might like to take some of this onboard. I assume from his posts that he is a KA freighter driver. It might give him good ammo for his next beef.

[bamboosnake]

[quote=Dragon69;2862568]

Quote....Your primary task as APP. controller is to vector airplanes onto the localizer with the appropriate spacing.

You fly the aircraft captain and we will get you to the parking bay..??

8miles..7miles..6miles..5miles.. 4miles whatever...we will switch you when WE decide it is appropriate and not b4....though the ball is dropped occasionally and a heads up call should not be snarled at..Simply
"69 5 miles on the localiser" would be perfect.

[BusyB]

Thanks for the info Bedder,

A couple of items I still don't understand.


"Another disadvantage for the Tower during the "first" period, is the lengthy taxi back to South side parking and the subsequent need to cross 07R/25L.

It is purely a judgement call as to whether or not a decision will be made to alter the normal landing runway for freighter etc aircraft. The call is normally made by AMS and it needs to be done some 10 to 15 minutes ahead of landing time."

I don't see that as a disadvantage for ATC just the aircraft, but he's got to his destination and should not take preference over a departure purely for a shorter taxi.

If you planned 15 mins ahead and then 5 mins before landing find that he's holding up departures surely some of the time you can change him back to the other rwy. I've certainly experienced 5 aircraft waiting to depart whilst a freighter lands on the south and no-one within 8 miles on the north.:confused:

[petitfromage]

Perhaps coincidence - perhaps not - but HK ATC has been running on rails all week.
Congrats to all involved in the dramatic recent improvement in/around HK.
ATC'ers and pilots alike...its been sharp and snappy. The level of mutual respect, explanation (where able) and "requests" (rather than can I possibly, maybe try to err...) has been fantastic.

Its good to talk!

[Bedder believeit]

Hi BusyB, I didn't explain myself very well. The disadvantage to the tower is that it may increase workload for the ground controller...just one more extra mouth to feed as the taxying from a North arrival back to the freight area involves maybe 6 odd tranmissions and some 10 minutes of taxying compared to one possibly two transmissions after a South runway landing. The freighter becomes a longer part of the traffic scene during the lengthy taxi back, instead of a quick quiet death. Also the South landing freighter does not have to cross an (at times busy) active runway.

Without going into all the sequencing requirements for arrivals, generally arrivals on to the same runway (if not being used simultaneously for departures) are planned at either 5NM or min wake turb, and in (let's call it reasonable wx conditions) we can sequence staggered arrivals between North and South 3NM apart. providing the two Aerodrome Controllers can visually separate the arrivals. So, if we had no departures at all, the most efficient way to run the arrivals would be North, South, North, South etc. Well, we also have departures to consider, and hence the system is basically run as I described last night. It has it's faults at times, I agree, but as an overall way of getting the most departures into the air along with the most arrivals on to the ground, I would think that we are fairly close to the mark. Generally if we have two successive arrivals to a runway that is also being used for departures, the desired sequencing space is 8NM to allow the release of a departure between the two arrivals. This happens with two cargo aircraft on the South runway (two rwys available), or as we are often on RWY07L only from around midnight till 9am the following morning, then all arrivals will normally be spaced to allow departures off the North runway. Bearing in mind that the bulk of the departures between 11pm at night and 12.30am are very heavy long haul, I can assure you that we need every bit of 8NM as an inter-arrival spacing.

In relation to your observation that at times you are disadvantaged as a departing aircraft, because of arriving freighters, well, it is probably outside of the "all on the North" period (from 1230pm local to 2000). We have a system in place, and I am not the one about to try and change it. The only people that will be able (maybe) to get that to happen are the users, ie you and your companies. If the operators through here really want all of the freighters landing all of the time on the North runway, well you will need to poll the Airport Authority and CAD to have the system changed. I can bet you anything you like that the two major operators through here, with both Pax and freighter aircraft would say "bugger off". It is interesting that I was talking to a KA captain recently, and he said to me "If I am parking on the South apron, why can't I land on the South runway?" Unfortunately the "me only" syndrome is alive and well!

The bit about offering a runway change to an arriving freighter being some 10 to 15 mins before landing is purely a curtesy. We do have some sensitivities re not changing landing runways once aircraft are too close to landing. If everyone coming in here was a space cadet and the ace of the base, then it might be a bit more easy to throw things around, however this is not the case. Where do we draw the line? At times it can be a bit conservative, but I guess we have a "weakest link in the chain" that we have to pander to at times.

[uncle4]

:\ What is going on at this place ... no leave, heavy workload, low in morale and what not! No discipline, no standard, yeahhhh.

The place is in a mess ... poor management. Yes, VERY POOR.

That guy from 4th floor keeps coming up. We see him in the center, see him in the reading room and restroom .... what does he do? I checked - he is in charge of Training, why the s:mad: t is he in the center all the time. ops is not his responsibility .... he thinks he is Mr Everything.

And that guy you recently re hired ...... We have a pretty bad center, now we will have a new BAD center

oh no!:ugh:
In case NOMAN missed this post .....:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
We hate this DEPT.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[bamboosnake]

How can an airline expect to fly around busy airspace at Mach.72 and not expect to get in everybodies way. I know fuel is expensive etc etc but unless all airlines agree to fly slow then the the only airline that is flying slow will not be getting short cuts, and could more times than not find himself being put to the back of the que ??

Any chance a few of you drivers can complain to you operations or higher up the food chain about all the similar callsigns on frequency..incidents as a result of this problem are becomming a weekly occurence ...CPA828 and CPA 888 a regular.
Thanks

[RRSM]

mr plot


1) $100000 a month and can't support your family?!:sad: how many children do you have?

I don't know where you get your information from, but please be advised that an ATCO II in MPS 44B ears 74,725 HKD per month - a far cry from the 100,000 mentioned by you. Please don't tell me you include Accomodation Allowance - not everybody is lucky enough to get that. The point I wanted to make was that our salary has been static for a decade and a change is not likely although the cost of living is going up. Agree?


2) Half an hour early? I thought he was two and a half early!:=


The controller mentioned in the mentioned "TOIL-event" was allowed to leave after a busy and tiring 2 hour-session on Ground. He was due for a "late break" (maximum 60 minutes) 30 minutes later. 30 minutes? Big deal!

Surely, a high-ranking manager has more important matters to attend to than such petty stuff. Like making sure the troops are happy and that the traffic flows smoothly.

Get your facts right, pal!

When Boss Norman took over here a few years ago, the prevailing feeling was that he was a welcomed breath of fresh air and a desperately needed change from his predecessor whose life ambition seemed to be having his photograph taken as often as possible and in as many places as possible. A figurehead from a remote planet. People's feelings of expextations grew when Boss Norman was quoted in the press, saying we needed more controllers. Sadly, however, nothing much has happened since then. Many controllers have left (one wonders why!) and the trainees take longer-than-expected time to check out. One of the main reasons for the dragged-out training is that the supervisors usual quick fix is to take a trainee off training to cover for sick leave. This may work in the short term, but there is a high price to pay for the trainees. Their training is interrupted and goes on far too long. On top of this, the trainees are often called upon to work on their days off. During their training period they need all the rest they can get and working on their days off is thus very counterproductive. Consequently, the trainees are often tired - even on the first day of their "new" training cycle - and this naturally can be detected in their performance.

The thing in HK ATC is that nobody wants to address the real problems which are lack of staff in combination with bureaucratic, petty and old-fashioned management who do not have even the slightest idea how to run a busy ATC unit. Additionally, a new control center is on the drawing board requiring even more staff.

In Hong Kong ATC the messenger can expect to be shot, so the individual supervisors simply want to survive their shifts rather than create any waves. Nobody is prepared to stick out their necks by imposing restrictions on traffic due to shortage of staff or even telling Boss Norman (or better still: LEGCO!) that more staff is urgently needed.

The size of the snowball is growing every day: the number of people wanting leave, but not getting it gets bigger constantly, people generally suffer from fatigue and tend to call in sick more often than before, an increasing number of local (S)ATCOs have an "overflowing leave balance" and their 1,5 - 3 days of well-deserved leave disappers into thin air every month, causing a very strong feeling of anger and thirst for revenge. Does Boss Norman know the real situation here? My feeling is that he is "protected" from the truth, because nobody wants to be the messenger.

What would happen if the press were made aware of just how disastrous the whole situation is in HK ATC? Somehow, I think that this is the only way things will change for the better. One thing is for sure: as long as things appear to run on rails nothing will change. Has the time come to involve the press?

[uncle4]

RRSM is right .... :D :D
We should tell the Director (actually Government) and then .... THE PRESS ....
We work very hard and AAHK got all credit .... get payrise, bonus, etc.
What do we get ...? NOTHING:ugh:
We junior guys suffer the most .... we always rostered the busiest times, get shorter breaks and less early go .... always get in trouble with supervisor even when do nothing wrong!!!:yuk: :yuk:

[throw a dyce]

I must admit that I found the standard of Watch Management pretty dire in HK.:uhoh: Our one used to play on the computer all day in the VCR,while the Gweilos ran the watch.Or they were little Hitlers,who thought that Kai Tak was the greatest thing since sliced Congee.They wouldn't last 5 minutes in the UK.
Also their attitude to junior controllers would get them sacked in the UK.Pure discrimination and harassement.
The CAD copied some aspects of the the UK SCRATCOH,but forgot about an important aspect.TIME OFF.They hate the 10 day cycle,and expect people to come in on days off,for the glory I guess.Sorry can't be more positive here,but I think you guys need to take some serious personal roster adjustments.:ok: :oh:
Ps Norman,you DO read these posts.You can't silence me.I left( but I paid my tax!):} :bored:

[geh065]

Time for a letter to the SCMP about decreased safety standards due to fatigue and poor management methinks!! That will get someone's attention!

[wtr]

I must admit that I found the standard of Watch Management pretty dire in HK.:uhoh: Our one used to play on the computer all day in the VCR,while the Gweilos ran the watch.Or they were little Hitlers,who thought that Kai Tak was the greatest thing since sliced Congee.They wouldn't last 5 minutes in the UK.
Also their attitude to junior controllers would get them sacked in the UK.Pure discrimination and harassement.
The CAD copied some aspects of the the UK SCRATCOH,but forgot about an important aspect.TIME OFF.They hate the 10 day cycle,and expect people to come in on days off,for the glory I guess.Sorry can't be more positive here,but I think you guys need to take some serious personal roster adjustments.:ok: :oh:
Ps Norman,you DO read these posts.You can't silence me.I left( but I paid my tax!):} :bored:

:= := Just heard they are planning to make people pay back days they take sick leave - unbelievable!!!:yuk: :yuk:

[throw a dyce]

Well I owe quite a few.Come and get me.:} :}
How about the days that were robbed because they lost TOIL records?
Just as well I kept records.Come on guys they are robbing you blind.:rolleyes::*

[RRSM]

Dyce,
This is very interesting!!! Are you saying that management simply did not give you the TOIL they were supposed to do? How much did they rob you of? How many guys were cheated? Did you guys ever consider taking legal action against the department? Surely, this should be categorized as theft? Seems that the socalled management are nothing but a bunch of thieves!!!

[throw a dyce]

RRSM,
They robbed just over 100 hours from me.It was when the change over from Kai Tak to CLK and we were in Gweilo Airlines.In July I was about 0 hours,and by Sept I was -100.:eek:
It wasn't til I was leaving and they wanted the 100 hours back that the problem started.I asked them to prove the hours.''Cannot'' only keep TOIL records for 3 months.Oh really,but how did I go from 0 to -100 in 4 weeks? They said that they didn't have records.Well I did and kept them.
It transpired that they keep all the TOIL records,but the records covering 2 months around Kai Tak/CLK changeover were lost.Computer wiped the lot.:mad: :eek: So we didn't exist.Sciving for 12 days?:= :D
They took my records as proof and gave me back 64 hours,took me off the 5on 1 off punishment roster,and never said sorry.
The thing that made me mad was, we were doing extra shifts to get their Airport open,told when to go on leave etc,and this is how they said thanks.F:mad: off.
Legal action? Just wanted to get on the plane home.It took them nearly 2 years to give my MPF back.It wasn't worth that much,so I celebrated by buying a Ride on Lawnmower,to remember HK.:D :ok:

[RRSM]

Dyce,
So I guess you were not the only one robbed? I bet the rest of the lads never got their hours and have now worked 100 hours for free. It is called stealing where I come from and is criminal.

Nothing has changed, though. People who get leave (very few & lucky ones these days) return to work only to see their TOIL balance has dropped around 20 hours during their leave. Why? Too hard to explain here, but management want to have their cake and eat it. Everything works in their favor. Taking legal action will be "too hard". Want a sticker for you lawnmower to remind you of Hello Kitty ATC?

[throw a dyce]

RRSM,
Yes I guess thats right,although it probably only affects those in Gweilo Airlines at that time.I know that several of my collegues also had -100 hours suddenly,but I could only look after my own case,and keep a careful note of my hours.Also several people that left were put on punishment roster of 5 on 1 off to recover the time.I stated that if I had an incident working that S:mad: t,I would drag CAD management publically with me.
However I recovered the time anyway over year 3, with several personal roster adjustments,but I was determined not to let them away with it.
PS,
A sticker would be great.This mower is sponsored by Hello Kitty and Coltalin for ultimate Hay fever relief.:ok:

[oriental flyer]

To all the HK ATC controllers I'm sorry to hear that the working conditions are so bad for you at the moment. I hope that a resolution will soon be found but somehow I doubt it .

I would just like to say a big thanks for keeping us all safe for many years. As to the odd snippy comment well they often relieve tension and provide some much needed humour. I've been on the receiving end of a few, most of them not called for but I just happened to make a call immediately following another aircraft who has just ticked the controller off and I ended up as the obvious target . Hey we are all grown ups, let it go it isn't worth getting upset about.

Approaching in bad weather the radio sounds like a continuous steam of instructions with aircraft going in all directions . I for one would hate to keep a mental picture of that many moving objects. So I take my hat off to all of you.

One point that I would appreciate an answer to, is when requesting descent inbound from the East why is it not possible to simply add a height /speed restriction to the descent clearance. This would stop the requirement to go back to ATC and seek clarification.
If the weather is bad and FL 150/130 with 250KTS is required at MANGO MELON simply add it to the ATIS then every aircraft can plan accordingly.

Your thoughts or comments are welcome, but I would like you to know that you are appreciated by the majority of the pilot fraternity.

[throw a dyce]

Oriental,
Not sure if it's in the ATIS vocabulary.Also ATIS are generally for airfield conditions and not medium level speed /approach procedures.
Are Sigmets not issued if the wx is very bad.:confused:

[uncle4]

To all the HK ATC controllers I'm sorry to hear that the working conditions are so bad for you at the moment. I hope that a resolution will soon be found but somehow I doubt it .

I would just like to say a big thanks for keeping us all safe for many years. As to the odd snippy comment well they often relieve tension and provide some much needed humour. I've been on the receiving end of a few, most of them not called for but I just happened to make a call immediately following another aircraft who has just ticked the controller off and I ended up as the obvious target . Hey we are all grown ups, let it go it isn't worth getting upset about.

Approaching in bad weather the radio sounds like a continuous steam of instructions with aircraft going in all directions . I for one would hate to keep a mental picture of that many moving objects. So I take my hat off to all of you.

One point that I would appreciate an answer to, is when requesting descent inbound from the East why is it not possible to simply add a height /speed restriction to the descent clearance. This would stop the requirement to go back to ATC and seek clarification.
If the weather is bad and FL 150/130 with 250KTS is required at MANGO MELON simply add it to the ATIS then every aircraft can plan accordingly.

Your thoughts or comments are welcome, but I would like you to know that you are appreciated by the majority of the pilot fraternity.

:ok: Thanks for your nice comments ... We try to provide good service even though working conditions are terrible .... 1997 pay, poor roster, poor management, no leave, low morale, mimimum rest, poor instructors, slow training, etc:ugh: :ugh: . And Airport Authority still want more.:yuk: ... no thanks!:= := :=
It could help if you pilots and airlines can write to CAD and pressure them to improve ..... Again, it may not be as safe to fly if conditions are worst and worst.

4 :}

[On the beach]

Hi Oriental,
To answer your question re heights and speeds at the metering fixes (MELON & MANGO to you). Let's start with the "biggie" - speed. The problem is that traffic is being sequenced centrally, by the flow controller (the only guy with the "big picture"), and all the information that the en-route controller gets (and needs) is the spacing that he is required to provide at the metering fixes to achieve a smooth flow, filling all the gaps, to ensure that we can punch in 29 arrivals an hour to the runway 'til the cows come home. And there are 3 en-route controllers speeding you up/ slowing you down. So just remember that the guy you are speaking to (the en-route controller) can't give you a detailed reason why you are being slowed/speeded, except that he is one of three guys providing the best service to get the most aircraft on the ground in the shortest possible time. It doesn't matter what airline you are. (Unless you have rung me personally to let me know that I have been given a complimentary upgrade to first class, for life. Then, of course, you will always be number one, but that will have to remain between you and me - OK?)
Anyway, back to reality. Speed control. It's like you driving a car and approaching a roundabout. You see a gap in the traffic approaching on your left/right and you either have to speed up/slow down (or if you're a wuss, stop) to get yourself into that gap. And as you know, I'm sure, if you speed up to beat that guy on your left/right, as soon as you've beaten him you have to slow down to the speed everyone else (the wusses) are doing or vice versa. Well guess what, it's no different just 'cause you're in a plane. We're very simple souls here and we don't want to introduce too many new concepts, mainly 'cause it'd be too hard for us, as well as you, and we don't get paid enough to be sophisticated!
So, that's speed control sorted. So I don't expect any more questions on that - OK. Now height. That's a slightly different kettle of fish. It really all boils down to the runway in use. And as I'm sure you all know, RWY25 is the runway that's going to be the predominant runway in use at CLK. No? - Well that's what all our procedures are based around. And that's based on the extensive research carried out by CAD before we even moved to CLK. So if you're arriving from Taipei, Tokyo, Seoul, N. America, we expect you to be at FL130 by MELON, cause that's on profile for RWY25 - right?.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN, RWY07 IS THE MOST USED RUNWAY?
Well, okay we do change runways occasionally, so we'll stick with the "master plan". Now I know you're going to say that that's way too high if you're landing on RWY07. And I have to agree (grudgingly), 'cause if you arrive from the east in the wee small hours and I don't put any height restrictions on you
then you will cross MELON at FL310 (Well, the men amongst you will).
So that's the height problem solved. Make sure you arrive after midnight and before six'ish in the morning and you can have a proper descent profile. If you have a problem with that outside those hours then you'll have to arrange a meeting with "big" NORM and sort it out with him. 'Cause I don't get paid enough to do his job as well as my own!
Lots of luck "Beachie" :ok:

[uncle4]

:D :D :D
Thank you Mr President .... your letter to Co and company very good.

Now I think my payment to association is worth (I will continue be a memeber) ...

:D :D

Keep the GOOD WORK.

多謝 :ok: We love you!!!

[Shitsu_Tonka]

I had always considered that I eventually wanted to end up working at HKG - reading this thread, and others has me seriously wondering!

Corresponence received from CAD recently, suggest there is no recruitment for expats in the pipleine. Is this for real or just the official line? The impression I get is that you (like everywhere else) are very short-staffed. Heaven knows how they expect to accomodate growth without the people.

So - is it still worth trying for HKG if/when they change their policy?

And - when ATC's leave HKG to work, where do they normally go?!

PM any info in-confidence.

Ta.

[throw a dyce]

When you leave HK it's usually to go back to work in your home country,retire,or the Middle East.There were so many nationalities I think we are spread all over the world.;)

[RRSM]

****su,
HK ATC used to be a really nice place to work. But the good times are long gone! HK ATC is rotten to the core and dysfunctional, too. Lack of staff is only a part of the problem.

Here are 5 reasons why you should NOT come here - even if they do recruit:

- for the last 10 years our salary has been static. A pay increase is highly unlikely. We work twice the number of aircraft, though!

- leave is too hard (quite rare) to get. For people who appreciate their time off and holidays more than their work it is all just TOO HARD!

- TOIL. This concept is normally hard to explain to others: Basically, our management take great pride in calculating our working hours every month and keep a exact record for each controller - even down to the minute! They insist we must work the same number of hours every week as office workers. No acknowledgement that it is more tiring to work evenings, nights, weekends etc. Invariably, we end up working slightly less than the office people and are therefore called upon to work on our days off. This will sooner or later create fatigue and guess how this affects our morale.

- The place gets busier every day, but our procedures, management and supervisors are behind the power curve. The front line controllers have to cope with it all including the ridiculous restriction imposed by ATC China. No support!!!

- The staff morale is at an all time low. The youngsters on training are fed up even before they get checked out. There is definitely a punishment culture here. Many experienced controllers (locals and expats) are at the point where they would love to leave. Generally, there is a lot of anger and dissatisfaction here. Working in this kind of environment is simply not healthy for anyone.

Anyway, a new recruitment seems unlikely although we are 50 controllers short. Our bosses are still in denial.

[throw a dyce]

When I served my time there (98-01)I was almost the youngest Gweilo there.I'm now 45.There must be a lot of the Gweilos coming up for retirement,whether it be on their terms or they won't give you a contract past 60.
The CAD made no effort to encourage younger Gweilos to stay,or have a way for them to come back if things get tight.People have to go home for lots of reasons,and for me HK is the other side of the world.As I said before,you've done 3 years now get out and don't come back.
I also think that CAD got off Scot free ,and I have had lots of practise there.(JIMMY). If a ''certain investment'' had actually worked :O :uhoh: then there would have been NOBODY left.A Really,Sound,Idea wasn't it. Shame nice try though.:(

[Bedder believeit]

****su, Having read some of your informative posts elsewhere, you seem to be far too smart and well read for these lattitudes. I would say that the chances of HK recruiting expats soon under anything but reasonable terms are almost non existent. I think the halcyon days of "Let's go to the tropics for a while Dear" have disappeared with global warming. I quite enjoyed HK when we were at Kai Tak, but those days have long since faded away...what was that approach to RWY13 called..IDS...IKS...IZS? Stuffed if I can remember! One of these days when I am in Brissy, I will have to take you under my wing, down to the Brekky Creek and fill you in on a few details....and we don't even know each other...or do we?

[droidman]

ATCO's do their best (not always enough and often too much) within the frustrating and strangled system we are forced to comply with. Sometimes the frustrations explode on frequency when one too many "what's my delay" questions happen. You may not realise that this question occurs 100's of times a day and it is not possible or appropriate to answer all in a calm /concise and friendly manner due to workload or the fact that there maybe no reasonable answer due to a sad lack of experience or outright ablitiy. You may be the one that breaks the chopstick and the reply may not equal the question. How many of you have listened to the poor R/T from some carriers the constant cries of confirm followed by a perfect readback, the long unitelligable readbacks, the incomprehensible incoherant requests that clutter the HK ATC freq's do you then wonder why occasionally and increasingly there are snaps on the ATCO's side. Please add to that the frustrations of pay/toil/leave/China ATC (prehistoric systems, couldn't make a decision if you paid them, let's put a hold on Hk traffic again it worked last time and they don't stand up for themselves,why not just stop all traffic into Beijing and Shanghai because we can ha! ha! let's make FL370 the only level today as nobody can make it by Dotmi -20, I think that guy might be near the holding point let's call HK and give him a 3 hour delay but only say it is 20 minutes for the next 19 minutes(you think I'm joking,I'm not) Many pilots do have a reasonable gripe but at the end of the day so does everyone else and you all pick on the ATCO. HKATC is clearly a leader in service in Asia (kindascarybuttrue) it ain't perfect, sometimes it ain't pretty, but without support from H headquarters Q and the users (Pilots) things won't get any better just more frustrated/irritated and down right cranky.
Just remember we both need each other and are in a pile of :mad: without acceptance and cooperation.
p.s. I don't miss the job and can confirn all that dyce has said re toil and Gweilo airlines except that I was closer to losing 200 hours but didn't keep a record.

[throw a dyce]

Everyone at Gweilo Airlines should send CAD a bill for the hundreds of hours that they F:mad: STOLE off us.200 hours is over a month,and they did it to everyone to varying degrees.They make this song and dance about TOIL,keeping a squadron of people beavering away on the 4th floor,to produce something that is 3 months old.When you leave and you are positve hundreds of hours,will you get the time,or money.I don't think so.
You couldn't fight it as there was no union to back you up.Just shrug the shoulders and put it down to the way they are.If they were decent employers they would investigate this,and sort it out.Anyway I hope that this information is being copied and fed to management on the 4th floor.You bunch of thieving B:mad: tards

[droidman]

amen dyce,,how can you run an accountling system where complete weeks are missed out because the person responsible didn't tick your presents so no record so therefor you no there. This equats to 100K of lost income and every second has to be paid back . It is however allowable on their part to hold the positive toil for years and can be several months worth of unpaid overtime . The hope is you forget or don't argue because they won't pay you . That my friends is theft by the govt of your time and your money there is no other slant on it. But who is going to fight it when your tenure is but a fleeting moment and the cost prohibitive...:ugh:http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/46.gif:ouch:

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Oh Dear -

Think I will stick to where the grass is browner.

TOIL sounds like grounds for..... an uprising!

Thanks for the feedback.

S-T

[Lap? Kok? - Chek!]

I have not visited these pages for a long time but I am not at all surprised to read what it is like in Hong Kong now. It seems to me that absolutely nothing, with the exception of traffic levels, has changed since I arrived there in 1996. Nor is it likely to in the forseeable future. Unless the old bugbear of "loss of face" is expunged from the Chinese psyche and people are allowed to make decisions without fear of being hung, drawn and quartered or even worse, having their TOIL tinkered with, then nothing will ever change.
The civilised world got where it is by taking risks, making mistakes, learning from them and improving the situation as a result. That will never happen in HK because nobody in management (upper, middle or lower) is prepared to make a decision that could be wrong and result in face loss.
Hong Kong is nothing more than a very rich third world country and will remain so for a long time. The ME could probably be placed in the same category but at least the Arabs were smart enough to realise it and were happy to pay for (and listen to) foreign companies and expertise.
With regard to all the bu11sh1t about procedures that you guys have to put up with, it seems to me that you made your bed and now you have to lie in it. Back when CLK first opened and virtually nothing changed from the Kai Tak operation (if I remember correctly the movement rate was initially LESS than at Kai Tak) that was when you should have made a stand instead of just saying "yes John, how high would you like me to jump, John?". Perhaps if something had been said by the expats as a group, instead of the odd individual - all of whom have probably long since been given their "pink slips"-, maybe, just maybe, somebody might have listened.
Of course, the biggest obstacle to speaking up was always the possibility (probablity!) of non renewal of contract tho surely that is no longer such a big issue given the staff shortage and the proximity of retirement for a large number - not to mention the huge stockpiles of cash that you have all built up over the last 10 years :)
Perhaps now is the time to stand up for what you believe in and to do future HK controllers a huge favor - approach management as a large group of hugely experienced controllers and tell them what a crock of sh1t HK really has become under their management. Fat chance of that I guess Huh?

For those who have seriously had enough there are plenty of jobs available in the ME, and plenty more to come with the opening of the new airport at Jebel Ali. Just imagine the joy. SIX parallel runways, all separated, and not a hill as far as the eye can see and whilst Serco may have its problems at least you can make your feelings felt and put forward your ideas without quite the same oppressive fear of recrimination. They also pay more than enough to live on and you get plenty of time off to have a life. No more waiting for busses or living in fear of being caught sneaking out early.
One problem tho - it is a real bitch trying to navigate the sand in a wheelchair or a walking frame.

I noticed in one of the earlier posts that mention was made of "a certain investment". Don't tell me that you guys have blown some of your hard earned cash and have still not partaken of the millions that were promised - bummer!
RSI - what an ironic name given the repetitive strain it must have caused over the years. Still, there are quite a few McDonalds in the ME that could do with a bit of refurbishment :)

[Numero Crunchero]

Firstly I want to say thank you to the guys at HKG ATC. I have had the pleasure of meeting/drinking with/playing tennis with many guys in DB from ATC. Regardless of industry or position I think there are very few people in HKG who are not overworked and 'underpaid' compared with 10 years ago.

Personally, I feel myself relaxing as soon as I am in contact with HKG ATC inbound. I make mininal calls...I have found ATC incredibly proactive in giving directs/ high speed exemptions etc. On the ground...I understand that any delay is ambiguous just like the load controller or engineer telling me we have a problem....the age old problem....the delay, how long is a piece of string. So if a specified time delay isn't provided its probably because they don't know...so why keep asking?

I have to say I have never experienced 'snooty' or sarcastic ATC calls (in HKG) in over 14 years...but I have been embarassed by my colleagues being both over the radio!

Both ATC and us have the same goal...the safe and efficient arrival/departure of aircraft to/from HKG. So why argue or take it personally if something gets said!? Personally, I fly at least 150 till 5nm, even though I fly AIrbus, as the aim isn't to be at a height and speed at 1000' AAL...it is to be safe and efficient....and help preceding and following aircraft to be safe and efficient as well. I sometimes think that 1000' rule is the tail wagging the dog!

Anyway, to Marty/Greg/Rob et al...keep up the good work....the silent majority appreciate the humour and professionalism over the airwaves!

[victor to u]

[quote=Numero Crunchero;2933979.


Anyway, to Marty/Greg/Rob et al...keep up the good work....the silent majority appreciate the humour and professionalism over the airwaves![/quote]

keep up the good work?

[bekolblockage]

V2U
Your age says it all. Now run along ....

[On the beach]

Bekol,
Is that you I spy further down the beach?
Relax, that nice 19 year old is probably a budding CPA-jock, or has an application in to become a controller. In which case - "DON'T DO IT".
Right, back to the beach.

Beachie :ok:

[throw a dyce]

Victor,
Are you Victor Meldrew?I don't beleive it!! Well my friend your speaking to the ''et al'' now.I wouldn't say Good Work,I'd say ''Excellent''. Given all the hurdles that are placed in the way, then those guys do a Great job.I worked bloody hard with them to give the best service that we possibily could,with the handcuffs and straight jackets we had around the HK area.So ur compaint is?
2 U up U 2 and C U Jimmy:mad:

[climb now]

keep up the excellant work?

[bekolblockage]

...excellant...
Nuff said.

[On the beach]

Quote:
Originally Posted by climb now View Post
...excellant...
Must be a pilat :ok:

[Numero Crunchero]

Hey, some of us pilots can speel

[Five Green]

I Like de "walcum hom" that we get from a certain ATCer !

(ps speil chk nawt werkin)

[Numero Crunchero]

We shouldn't throw stones at people with accents five green. I mean everyday I have to put up with overly polite canadians who I can't understand or be saracastic with. Bloody yarpies who get the sarcasm but keep saying 'is it' when I already told them 'it was' and then those terrible accents from some little island to the west of france...they are the worst!

[404 Titan]

Or those funny people from those two small islands to the east of Australia who slur their “I’s”.:uhoh: :eek: :ouch:

[Kane Toed]

The ones that eat fush?

[Numero Crunchero]

Thats the ones....god they must get confused in that scene in the sound of music which starts "doe, a deer, a female deer" etc etc
Or as my yarpie friends would say...."shame shame shame, its tearable dat der axcents are so unreedabull, isn't it?"

[Rice Whine]

Yaaaa !!!!!

[taekyon2]

Holy crap! After having read through all the posts on this thread I really feel for you guys working HK ATC now, not to mention quite disenchanted as I too had considered eventually trying my luck applying for a job there some time in the future!

Reading this thread I have pretty much ruled that out now! I have been working ATC in Vienna TMA for the past six years and thought we were going through tough times here regarding staff shortage, incompetent management, and generally low morale! At least here we have the advantage of a strong union and the fact that management is ****ting their pants at the thought of an ATCOs' rebellion of some sort. Hell, I figure I could probably walk into my boss' office and pee on his desk, he'd smile and say thank you! :}

No overtime pay, no yearly increase in pay, hardly any leave, and at the same time having to deal with all that mainland imposed bureaucracy? You gotta be kidding me! (I know you are not!) That would drive any professional totally bonkers over time! Especially as air traffic growth is going up and up consistently!

Seriously, I wish you guys all the best there! Talking about greener pastures...Could anyone of you be kind enough to enlighten me where in Asia expat ATCOs are hired or even sought-after? I've been having a bit of a hard time researching this online so far? How 'bout Singapore and KL?

(Damn...I just noticed how old is thread actually is! I found it via google and didn't check the dates! Sorry for that!)

[betaboy]

Crickey Numero Chrunchero! How ‘ya goin' Mate? Don’t be a drongo this arvo!

I love the irony of Aussies “avinago” at other accents . At least the language we Canadians, Brits, Kiwis (and, yes , even Americans) speak is English!!

http://www.aussieslang.com/

And by the way, the letter after G in the alphabet is H, not HAytch…
:)

[HotDog]

And Oregano is a herb, not an erb, fanny is not an ass, aluminium is not aluminum, solder is not sodder, etc.ect.:)

[VSD]

Taekyon2.....try Africa! :}

[VSD]

After 15 hours droning back from LA, a pretty voice saying "welcome back" is fantastic... long may it continue...............:D

The one who said this is the most disguisting tower-rated ONLY gweilo in HK ATC.....many local hates him! center we have loudspeaker, tower we have another louder speaker, what a place here is!

[SuzieWong]

VSD
You mean the one who miss out on radar training??? I thought he has a Chinese girlfriend???:uhoh:

[throw a dyce]

Taekyon,
I can't think of anywhere in Asia that is hiring Gweilos.Singapore and Malaysia seem to manage themselves.HK isn't hiring expats because of it's localisation policy.Do they need to? Well that's a long debate.
As you can see from this thread,a strong union is worth staying with.HK has an ''Association'' but is very IFATCA minded,with no teeth at all.If you go to the Middle East,then there is B:mad:gger all back up there.
I'm sure if HK advertised again then there would be a stampede of Aussies.Is it worth upping sticks,travelling half way round the world.Well there are good points,but you can't expect the same when abroad.I wouldn't recommend pissing on their desks there.Although some have tried.:rolleyes:

[CC.NDB]

LapSap.
I wish I knew what the hell you were trying to say! How did you do in your English Language Proficiency Test ?:eek:

[throw a dyce]

CC NDB,
I'm surprised at what you posted.If this is true,then the OJTI should get her out of there.If she had shouted at a pilot,then the OJTI should immediately take over.As for calling her those terms,then you could well get sacked instantly for that in Nats.
The HK CAD treated their local trainees appallingly.They brain washed any form of independant flexible thought out of them,and then slate them for not being flexible.:ugh:The supervisors barked at them in Cantonese,and they all just went and hid.
Prima Donna controllers.Well every place has their Mr Angry.I found that there was no standard phraseology in HK whatsoever.People who used their standard phraseology,but had to constantly repeat,because the pilots were not up to speed.They were often percieved as grumpy.
Well I returned to Greener pastures,and the air is clean.Life is affordable.People don't constantly barge into you.They let you off trains first.I can play on 40 golf courses within 1 hour.There is no Hello Kitty.:eek:
I can strongly recommend the greener pastures.CLK will be well in the Fragrant Harbour brown stuff if everyone left.Great idea.:D

[LapSap]

other than uk, a trainee was being sacked in an African ATC years ago of barbarian manner. third world atc did not tolerate so did clk.

38Controller.
I wish I knew what the hell you were trying to say! How did you do in your English Language Proficiency Test ?:eek:

CC NDB
You sound like a pretty nasty bit of work coming out with descriptions of your young colleagues like that.
I have every sympathy for APP trainees at the moment who are thrown in the deep end for their first radar rating, struggling with inadequate training resources, total lack of standardization all around them, several arrogant gweilos who ought to know better (or maybe not, which is why some are here in the first place), constant changes to their roster from unrelated Ops to training due to a piss-poor Civil Service attitude to sickness relief, Supervisory staff who wouldn't know if their ar$e was on fire and outdated procedures written by people who last worked traffic when Kai Tak was running 8-10 miles spacing and still think thats "tight".
None of this excuses her for her actions (if reported correctly) but then again no action was taken to the previous "unplugged" event, was it? :=

[throw a dyce]

CCNDB and 38 controller,
Why are you discussing a trainee on an open forum? I saw some right old ropey things going on out there,but this takes the biscuit.If you two are so high and mighty,then why is your English so bad? Have you ever heard of the expression ''Lived by the sword,Died by the sword''. I suggest you remember it quick.ATC is a very,very small world,and people have long memories.:*

[LapSap]

I see the heat in the kitchen has become too much for 38Controller and CC NDB. Speaking of which - how's our staff canteen going? Rumour has it, there are no takers to run it after the current contract runs out. Looks like we're stuck in the middle with no place to go and a bus timetable designed around office workers cushy hours.:yuk:

[SuzieWong]

Congratulations to my colleage who got checked out on APP this week but must be a big worry for management that after 1 whole year only ONE trainee get rated so far! Yes ONE!
Hang on - we just lost one APP controller who retire recently, so where are we now :confused:.
Where is the problem lie? Selection? Training officer? No standard?
Will the next 1 get checked out just in time for next retirement?!:eek:
New ATCX??? Think they should forget it!!!

[ccp1]

Congratulations to my colleage who got checked out on APP this week but must be a big worry for management that after 1 whole year only ONE trainee get rated so far! Yes ONE!

With that kind of standard, i'm surprised only one got checked out.:eek:

[LapSap]

http://www.hongkongairport.com/eng/pr/pr_906.html


(HONG KONG, 14 October 2007) - Hong Kong International Airport (HKIA) recorded solid growth during the first six months of fiscal 2007/08, with air traffic movements and passenger and cargo volumes increasing more than 6.0% in September alone.

In September 2007, HKIA served 3.82 million passengers, up 8.3% from September 2006. Cargo volume reached 342,000 tonnes, a 6.5% increase from 2006, while air traffic movements grew 6.1%, to 24,720.

For the six months ended 30 September 2007, passenger and cargo volumes grew 7.1% and 5.8%, respectively, to 24.3 million and 1.88 million tonnes. Air traffic movements rose 6.0%, to 149,030.

HKIA served 46.7 million passengers, handled 3.68 million tonnes of cargo and recorded 291,335 air traffic movements for the 12 months ended 30 September 2007. This represented increases of 7.4%, 4.0% and 4.8%, respectively, from the previous year.



And for that, we've netted a piddling 4.95% pay increase over the past 10 years.:yuk::mad:

[On the beach]

Sorry to resurrect this thread after so many years but I guess things must have improved as it's gone so quiet. I must admit I enjoyed reading most of the posts as I think a lot was learned or by being aired led to a greater understanding of problems on all sides.

How's the new centre coming along?

Any Gweilos left? That's to say gone, er, no I mean remaining. :rolleyes:

On the beach :ok:

[Lap? Kok? - Chek!]

I guess things must have improved as it's gone so quiet


... or more likely -- they have all been bribed or beaten into submission !!!!

[hongkongfooey]

On the beach, they implemented new STARs and SIDs recently, in my ( and most of the work colleagues I speak to ) experiences, we have never been stuffed around so much, especially coming through Sierra.
The " new improved " shortened STARs looked good on paper but are rarely used ( normally significant vectoring to add track miles ) and now coming through DOTMI is worse too eg : heading SSW from DOTMI, ridiculous speed reductions ( 180IAS @ 30tr miles ), and even holding on days when the weather is fine.
This is the norm, it is very unusual to not get speed restrictions or extra trk miles.
It sucks :yuk:

[mcdude]

fooey, you must be new. heading SSW thru DOTMI has been standard stuff since the 90's, depending on time of day, and DOTMI arrivals have changed little since WW1... SIERA arrivals will always be a compromise because of the convoluted, unchangeable airspace design. Perhaps you could understand that the good folk in CAD who design and control these procedures do so TRYing to strike a balance between many extreme variables, many of which you have no idea about. Put simply, it aint easy. :uhoh:

[jonathon68]

Unfortunately flight plan fuel is based on the published STAR's, which are now very, very optimistic at certain times of the day. :*

[hongkongfooey]

McDude, thanks for backing me up, sometimes the controlling here is as bad as the 90s, that is, no improvement in 20 years.
Heading away from the airport ( sorry, that should have been SSE from DOTMI )at cruise speed is stupid and a waste of fuel, why can't we be given a " time over DOTMI " for example, or why can't we reduce spped whilst heading AWAY from the airport, thats airspace issues is it ?

Also passing abeam the threshold at FL190 with 100 odd track miles to run is ridiculous and a waste of fuel, and then someone 200nm east lands before you, this is not normal.

[Careless]

HKF, I don't understand. What's wrong with heading SSW after DOTMI? DOTMI - MAGOG is SSW, right? Would you rather have heading SSE?!!!
East sector radar controllers have to integrate DOTMI traffic with the ELATO traffic into one sequence. Therefore a little turn to the left from DOTMI is sometimes inevitable. I admit some controllers would excessively vector aircraft to acheive the spacing when speed control is more appropriate. On the othe hand, there are situations where vectoring is the best tool. Bear in mind that the East sector arrival airspace is very narrow. This is the reason why several turns are necessary.

J68, don't you carry holding fuel? isn't it mandatory?

[iceman50]

Careless

J68, don't you carry holding fuel? isn't it mandatory?

There is some fuel carried but he just has to use his Commander's discretion and load what he needs, conditions for the day, you do not need to follow the CFP every time!

[Bedder believeit]

Listen ATC boys and girls, I wouldn't take too much notice of that fooey guy, he's a renowned bleater and hater of everything that we do. Just ignore him. "On the Beach", do that, go to the beach!

[On the beach]

Bedder,

"On the Beach", do that, go to the beach!

I did but the bloody Germans got here before me!

On the beach, again, now I've thrown some of their towels in the sea!! :ok:

[TimsBits]

Don't normally pay much attention to the trivia and Nif Naf on this site but can't help myself on this one.... HKF....you are either completely delusional or just a wind-up, but in 14 years flying into HKG I have NEVER seen any holding when the WX was fine, and almost ALWAYS will get track shortening on the Siera arrivals when traffic permits, so crawl back into your hole, and come out when you have something constructive ( and accurate ) to say!

[Argus Tuffit]

G'day,

Geez is this hongkongphooey guy for real? First he dont know his SSW from his SSE. Blimey hope he's not up the pointy end next time me and the missis go back to Oz. Spose if hes comin through DOTMI he must be one of them reejunal jockeys, ever likely he cant tell is arse from is elbow.

why can't we be given a " time over DOTMI "

Try tomorrow fer starters, and ask them blokes north of DOTMI, why dont yer?

Heading away from the airport at cruise speed is stupid

Your tellin me mate. See them levers between youse and the boss ever thought of seein what happens when you pull them back? Doh.

Strewth I'm speechless which is saying somethin.

See yaz, Argus

[HKAforever]

You people complaining about the manners or standards of the ATC at HKG haven't been to JFK. Let me tell you, those JFK folks are real nasty son of bitches. I will punch them in the face if I ever encountered them in real life. Compared to them, HKG are the most professional and courteous ATC folks I have encountered.

[bekolblockage]

Some of you guys are just plain embarassing.

[gweiloairline]

What are you trying to say?

Are you saying HKatc is no good?

HKFoolery

Give JFK a chance!
They have improved a lot since they put those aged 10 and under
in control

[throw a dyce]

The question is if HK was handling the movements of JFK (50% extra),then would they be so polite? Somehow I doubt it.standby,standby.:)

[gweiloairline]

throw a dyce (http://www.pprune.org/members/41963-throw-a-dyce)

Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 924


The question is if HK was handling the movements of JFK (50% extra),then would they be so polite? Somehow I doubt it.standby,standby.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


In your usual self-important blundering ways, you are wrong again!
It has nothing to do with the amount of tfc;
Cafe De Coral in HK is always jam-packed with long long queues,
yet it is always service with a smile, fast, clean, efficient;
What do you get in old Mac in the States and your welfare country,
you wait 15 min minimum even if you are no.2 in line

It is culture

[bekolblockage]

What are you trying to say?

Are you saying HKatc is no good?


No. I'm saying some of the comments here are just plain cringeworthy.
If the cap fits......

Please, please don't ever compare us to Cafe de Coral or Delifrance. If your idea of professionalism and good service is purely based on how quickly you are served and has nothing to do with how absolutely abysmal the quality of the product is, then heaven help us.

[throw a dyce]

Gweilo,
Yeah and I wait 20 minutes at the Chinese takeaway.:8
It's the culture.:D

[Rule3]

How dare you steal our Trademark registered CLK 1998 := {as your Username } and cast Nasturtiums at Throw a Dyce, a founding member of the above Company. :}

[throw a dyce]

Rule 3,
I believe the company is still trading despite the downturn.The Northern UK and Southern Australian(Offshore IN HK) division have corporate team building seminars,at mutually agreeable venues.
This tends to be at noisy locations,where fish n chips,much beer and awful airline type food is consumed with a topping of petrol.We are sampling next seasons ''All day deli'' for the punters.:(
Our next AGM is to be announced but is about 3 years overdue.I think Turkey,Spa,Silverstone or Abu Dhabs would be a good place for a board meeting. Must get GWAs exec jet out of the desert.:)