Hollywood in Dambusters Remake! [Archive]

MrBernoulli

31st Aug 2006, 13:34

Oh my, oh my. I hate politically correct clap-trap and this one will take the cake.

Guy Gibson being told that his beloved dog, Afro-American, has been hit by a car. Tears and drama!

AAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! !!!!!!!

Lazer-Hound

31st Aug 2006, 13:37

Just a spotter

31st Aug 2006, 13:39

No doubt the brave boys and girls of the USAF will be depicted in a daring raid to destroy the bridge on the river kwai with the first atom bombs having used the enigma that they captured to discover that the communist dictator Saddam Bin-laden who singlehandedly masterminded the start of the WWII with the sneak attack on perl harbour, had based his terrorist training camp under the bridge.

Can't wait
:}
JAS

Langball

31st Aug 2006, 13:58

On the subject of the dam-buster raids, is it true to say that it that it didn't really change the outcome of WWII (as the original movie portrayed). Not trying to slight those brave people who took part, or the brilliant engineering involved.

FJJP

31st Aug 2006, 14:17

Langball, largely correct - German industry quickly recovered. However, it did remove a lot of German troops from the front line to form units to protect the dams. But the main effect was a huge boost to civilian morale in Britain.

wub

31st Aug 2006, 14:22

Not forgetting the appearance of Michelle Pfeiffer as Guy Gibson's 'batwoman'
Here's a location shot spotted en-route from Cyprus to UK
http://jjd.pbase.com/image/66065590.jpg

airborne_artist

31st Aug 2006, 14:30

From http://www.heureka.clara.net/lincolnshire/dambusters.htm :

"In the long term, it proved to be little more than a minor inconvenience to the Ruhr's industrial output. A beneficial side effect was that 27,000 men were withdrawn from Atlantic Wall defences to rebuild the dams and 10,000 men were allocated to protect Germany's other dams in expectation of further raids, although no further dam raids took place.

Where the raid did have an impact, was that the pictures of the broken dams proved to be a huge morale boost to the Allies, especially to the British, suffering under German bombing. It also told the Germans, the British could strike at the heart of their war machine. Maybe even more important, it showed the Americans and the Russians, what the British were capable of."

So, as with many "elite force" operations, the direct impact may have been small, but the ongoing fear, and the re-allocation of assets that followed added to the pressure on the German machine. 10,000 men defending the dams who could have been in Northern France in 1944....

Dop

31st Aug 2006, 14:33

Er.. It's Peter Jackson, so it's New Zealand, not Hollywood!

Wonder if the WETA workshop people are going to visit the BBMF to get some Lanc footage to base their effects on?

Skunkerama

31st Aug 2006, 14:40

If Peter Jackson delivers half of the faithfullness that he did to Tolkiens books then I think that everyone on these boards will rate the new film in their top 5.

Worried what they will call the dog though....blackie?

I hope they manage to use the special effects to good use and don't make it look like a glorified xbox game.

Peter Jackson remember is responsible for the excellent Lord of the Rings Trilogy and also the terrific remake of King Kong. I wouldn't write this one off quite so fast. Better than Tarantino getting the job just imagine, "Hey Gibson yo Mutha, I killed your dog N**ger and F*** yo mutha, now I'm going to torture you and give your wife a foot massage".....fades into scene of RAF airmen dancing to Sing Sing Sing whilst cutting each other with a switch blade......

dakkg651

31st Aug 2006, 14:52

No real choice but to use computer generated Lancs - but I'll put up with that if they get the sound of those four merlins right.

And the name of that non-white labrador too!

Wader2

31st Aug 2006, 14:57

There are 2 airworthy Lancasters and who knows, maybe the budget would stretch to getting Just Jane airworthy too.

Navaleye

31st Aug 2006, 15:03

Good point. Eyes watering at (zero probability) prospect of seeing three Lancs in the air. :sad:

ORAC

31st Aug 2006, 15:06

cockneyrock

31st Aug 2006, 15:07

Chorttled my way through the early posts, however,have fath, Sir David Frost will be the executive prducer.

Given Jacksons track record it should be a good movie. Have to say, however, that I am now standing by for the announcement that Ewan McGregor will play Guy Gibson though.:rolleyes:

MarkD

31st Aug 2006, 15:09

Talk elsewhere that PJ has already done some Lanc footage.
This Guardian blog post/comments on the subject (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/culturevulture/archives/2006/08/31/will_jackson_sh.html) mentioned TDB's appearance on The Office:
"That's not offensive. That's the dog's name. It was the forties as well - before racism was bad."
and a likely "rebooting" of that Labrador:
Yes, then the dog could be called Nigga. As in ... With Attitude. Give it a gold-plated bone and an earring and it'll be Blinger Command all the way.

gregers

31st Aug 2006, 15:09

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2/nick1950/dambuster.jpg

would this be a better idea than the Hollydud film? :hmm:

Greg

Training Risky

31st Aug 2006, 15:13

Mel Gibson was going to direct and possibly act in it

OH THE IRONY!!!!:D :D

Having an anti-semitic New Yorker lean out of a Lanc, dressed in a Wg Cdr's uniform, shouting "Don't you know who I am?"

ORAC

31st Aug 2006, 15:14

Hmmm, more bombs Grommet? And a nice cup of tea.....

snapper41

31st Aug 2006, 15:26

To be honest, the dog is totally irrelevant to the story and was only added for "human interest". It would avoid a lot of hassle, and stop attention being detracted from the real story, if it was left out altogether.

Sorry to disagree, but if there was no reference to the dog, how would you explain the success codeword for the breach of the first dam? 'Nigger' is an integral part of the story, IMHO.

Two's in

31st Aug 2006, 15:27

I understand that in the remake, 'Chuck' Gibson's B-29 clips the conning tower of U-571 on the Mohne See during the run-in and is hence able to recover the Enigma cipher tool.

airborne_artist

31st Aug 2006, 15:27

Hmmm, more bombs Grommet? And a nice cup of tea.....

A picture of some prototype bombs:

http://www.wensleydale.co.uk/images/mature.jpg

dakkg651

31st Aug 2006, 15:28

To be honest, the dog is totally irrelevant to the story and was only added for "human interest". It would avoid a lot of hassle, and stop attention being detracted from the real story, if it was left out altogether.

Sorry Orac I disagree. The dog is an important part of the Dambusters story. That is why his grave is still tended at Scampton.

alex_holbrook

31st Aug 2006, 17:36

OH THE IRONY!!!!:D :D

Having an anti-semitic New Yorker lean out of a Lanc, dressed in a Wg Cdr's uniform, shouting "Don't you know who I am?"

Not only anti-semitic, but anti-English... The Patriot- the English portrayed as evil bar stewards, and eventually the commanding officer is skewered on the Stars and Stripes (at which point the veins were sticking out rather prominently of my forehead). Braveheart- need I say more. That's irony for you.

brickhistory

31st Aug 2006, 18:53

So almost everyone on this thread so far has been anti-Hollywood if not anti-American, so that's different how than Mel's apparent dislikes?

That's irony for you.

Samuel

31st Aug 2006, 19:14

I didn't see this thread before posting a new one "Dambusters MK2", but according to the news in Wellington, and it's on the front page this morning, Hollywood isn't mentioned, and Mel won't be in it! It looks very much as though Hollywood, and American, involvement will be minimal, and besides, Peter Jackson is a stickler for accuracy. Most, if not all of the previous posts are therefore irrelevent!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3782818a10,00.html

2Old2Care

31st Aug 2006, 19:35

At least this one actually has a genuine US hero - McCarthy - as well as assorted Kiwis, Canadians and Aussies.

As for the dog. The name is racist now and it was racist in 1943, even if the use of it by Gibson and his contemporaries was unconcious racism. You don't need the name in the film, even as the codeword. :=

aviate1138

31st Aug 2006, 19:43

Er.. It's Peter Jackson, so it's New Zealand, not Hollywood!
Wonder if the WETA workshop people are going to visit the BBMF to get some Lanc footage to base their effects on?
They will start off with something like this... courtesy of CGI Artist Dan Meyer.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k35/beejaviate/march07_03-copy.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k35/beejaviate/may_29.jpg
I personally think the new Dambusters film is in good hands with Peter Jackson. He is a pilot and I think owns some vintage aircraft.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0405/S00185.htm
Aviate 1138

Navaleye

31st Aug 2006, 19:45

2OLD,

We can't go around deleting pieces of historical fact just because it doesn't fit in our Nanny State PC world. It was in the original, I see no reason to leave it out of this one, though I suspect they will.

Polikarpov

31st Aug 2006, 20:03

Heh, I knew it wouldn't be long before the dog controversy started up.

Personally I agree with ORAC. If there's even the slightest chance that hand wringing revisionists decide that altering the past to suit today's morals is the way forward, the whole dog angle should be left out of the film. There's plenty of other things concentrate on and having a dog called "Off-white" or something would just p!ss everyone off, insult history and divert attention from the story of the crews. Sorry state of affairs, but there you go. It's going to occupy a lot of column inches whatever.

Good CGI above - however the biggest issue I have with CGI creations in aviation films is generally not their appearance but the physics of flight, which is generally shocking.

Still, Jackson, a self confessed Anglophile and military aviation nut is probably the best man to hold the reigns so fingers crossed. That Kiwi article above says they're building ten full-size Lanc mockups for the ground shots. That'd be quite the sight!

Scoggy

31st Aug 2006, 20:13

Mr Jackson has a good track record, he is a aeroplane enthusiast to the core, CGI and the use of it has improved since "Pearl Harbour", thank God. The chance to show a story of what happens when tyranny meets sheer bloody mindedness, brilliant minds, and brave & heroic defenders of their way of life can't be brushed aside.

While I think the original has all of the above, the modern audience hasn't got the capacity to fill in the gaps in the picture on the wall in front of them. If the remake is true to the story with the bravery and spirit of all concerned, of all nations (there’s the multi-national ‘hook’) and shows and makes audible the never to be seen or heard again sight and sound of a squadron of Lancasters, in Surround Sound…well, I’ll watch it. Hopefully, so will enough people to re-coup the cost. Let’s face it, Mr Jackson only has to get the studio’s money back, he’s in the position to make films because he wants to, not because he has to.

“We’re having trouble getting hold of a Wellington bomber for the trial of your bomb, Wallis”

"Do you think it will help if you told them I designed it?”

cazatou

31st Aug 2006, 20:15

ORAC

31st Aug 2006, 20:20

Now, where do you find a team who would have one tenth of one percent of the actual WW2 knowledge of that team? On that basis, should we have a general rule that any movie based on historic facts over, say, 70 years, should be forbidden?...... :hmm:

ratty1

31st Aug 2006, 20:27

Anybody else seen any other Dam Buster threads knocking about?

Pontius Navigator

31st Aug 2006, 20:36

At least in the original film the aircraft were Lancasters flown by RAF crews; the Technical Advisor was Sqn Ldr HB (Micky) Martin DSO DFC & Bar and the Actor who played Wg Cdr Gibson was (in WW2) Lt R Todd MC (7th Battalion Parachute Regt) who, on D Day, was the first to arrive with his platoon at Pegasus Bridge in support of the Glider borne Troops of the Ox & Bucks Light Infantry.
Now, where do you find a team who would have one tenth of one percent of the actual WW2 knowledge of that team?

Sqn Ldr Micky Martin?

From Scapegoat 2004>> Having recently inherited a ltd edition print I would welcome some info into it's origin and history. It's entitled 'Tribute to 617 Squadron Past and Present' by John Pettitt from 1986. It's signed by the artist and and is number 77 of 500. It is signed by 8 former 617 Sqn aircrew: AM Sir Harold Martin, Gp Capt G L Cheshire, Gp Capt J B Tait, Wg Cdr P J J Day, Sqn Ldrs G E Fawke, T C Iveson & D J Shannon and Flt Lt R S D Kearns. Grateful for any info.

Scapegoat

johno617tonka

31st Aug 2006, 20:50

Given Jacksons track record it should be a good movie. Have to say, however, that I am now standing by for the announcement that Ewan McGregor will play Guy Gibson though.:rolleyes:

If Ewan did get a part, it would be fitting in respect to the fact his brother Colin was a modern day 'Dambuster' during the nineties! :D

2Old2Care

31st Aug 2006, 20:56

NavalEye

The word doesn't need to be airbrushed out of history - quite the reverse, because it is an example of how Gibson was a product of his age, class and upbringing.

But it does not need to be included in a modern film of the operation, because a repugnant controversy would distract a modern audience from the key elements of the film - the dedication and sacrifice of the crews.

And if you want to complain about the airbrushing of history, what about Mrs Gibson? It wouldn't surprise me if PJ included a girlie interest, but it will probably be Gibson's duty WAAF, not his troubled marriage.

So, when it comes down to it, what's the key moment; the sight of the Mohne Dam collapsing, with a third of the squadron down and more to go? Or the historically correct codeword being received at base?

Or Gibson going off to write the letters?

Samuel

31st Aug 2006, 21:53

"Let’s face it, Mr Jackson only has to get the studio’s money back, he’s in the position to make films because he wants to, not because he has to"

Scoggy, as far as I can tell, there is no "studio" money involved as PJ is more than capable of funding the whole thing himself from his small change......

The quote in my morning paper here in Wellington mentions a mere $76 million!

Samuel

31st Aug 2006, 22:00

There is an excellent review of Gibson in Max Hastings book "Warriors" published last year.ISBN0-00=719885=x

Matt Skrossa

1st Sep 2006, 07:33

According to the following link, Gibson's black dog will be called Trigger!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2337881,00.html
Presumably then Wg Cdr Guy Gibson RAF will become Lt Col Roy Rogers USAAF?
Or as they say in Harlem 'Yooo Trigga'

Polikarpov

1st Sep 2006, 08:15

:bored:

Not sure if that's tounge in cheek or not.

If not I shall be penning a swift letter to Jackson's production company.

:ugh:

Training Risky

1st Sep 2006, 08:22

From the link above:

THE ORIGINAL (1954)

Budget £5 million
Box office 8.4m tickets
Special effects Models by Army photographic reconnaissance unit. Bouncing bombs from archive test shots painted over frame-by-frame
Music Eric Coates’s march
Name of Guy Gibson’s dog Nigger

THE REMAKE (2007)
Budget £21 million
Box office £50 million predicted with DVD sales
Special effects Bombs from King Kong animator
Music Coates plus Oscar-winner Howard Shore
Name of dog Trigger

I don't care for the liberal wishy-washy argument, so totally lacking in LMF, over Nigger.

You can't change history - fact.

There was a total, all-out war = WWII

Desperate measures had to be taken = mass civilian casualties

Among most of the participants, there were no racially-sensitive, gender-fair, differently-abled positive policies = people were (wrongly) called niggers, cripples and there was a separate WRAF, WRAC and WRNS.

To all those who don't approve.... "MAN UP, N*GGER!":ugh: :ugh:

My point is, you can't remove items of historical fact from the Dambusters: mass civilian casualties, high friendly losses, a totalitarian enemy fixated on dominating Europe (no change there then) and a lack of refined, PC language.

It's the thin end of the wedge.:(

Skunkerama

1st Sep 2006, 08:39

Simple.
Call the dog Trigger and then have a directors cut screening with the scene reshot and the dog called Nigga.

The big holywood screenings for PC idiots can have the false history. The rest of us can have the real deal.

For gods sake it looks the same when spoken so it is only dubbing.

Don't let this silly nameing issue ruin what could be the most important aviation film in the last 30 years.

It will be a terrific recruiting tool for the RAF. Now how about a remake of The Cockleshell Hero's for us. Or even better a true and very graphic film about the Dieppe landings, bet that would be a shocking film.

Matt Skrossa

1st Sep 2006, 08:43

Can anyone corroborate the rumour going round at the time (circa 1982)when 617 re-equipped from Vulcan to Tornado and they used 'Nigger' as a formation callsign. Just after reforming they took a 9 ship formation around the UK to let them know the 'Dambusters' were back.

All went well until they checked in to flypast RAF Alconbury (USAF F1-11 base at the time).
'Nigger Check, Nigger 2, Nigger 3 etc etc up to Nigger 9' All was silent on Alconbury's approach frequency, so Nigger Lead rechecked the frequency and called again, this time the USAF Controller said 'I ain't talking to you' and refused them any form of service! True or Not????????

Wader2

1st Sep 2006, 11:08

I hope Mr Jackson gets in contact with Fred and Harold Panton whose 'Just Jane' , ex-Scampton, is serviceable and in taxy condition. They also have a large assortment of kit, including Gibson Girl and Nav Kit in their hangar.

alex_holbrook

1st Sep 2006, 11:21

So almost everyone on this thread so far has been anti-Hollywood if not anti-American, so that's different how than Mel's apparent dislikes?

I don't think anyone on here is anti-American. As for the Hollywood issue... well, they have a history of changing, er, history e.g. U571. I think most self respecting patriotic Englishman has the right to be anti Mel though.
;)

p.s. I think D for Digger/ J for Jumbo is serviceable, but it's down under. With a different paint job, it could come in handy.

Wader2

1st Sep 2006, 11:28

As for the Hollywood issue... well, they have a history of changing, er, history

Not forgetting Errol Flynn - Objective Burma. Now that really was an all-American classic re-write. It was even better received than U571 as cinema had been very popular up until that time.

At least Gregory Peck in the Purple Plain played an RAF Sqn Ldr

Polikarpov

1st Sep 2006, 12:17

"Tauranga's surviving Dambuster pilot, Les Munro, says Peter Jackson will need to be careful picking the crews for his remake and warned of heavy flak if the remake became a love story. "

Interview with Les on the link below.

Tv3 Video (http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/tabid/67/articleID/12670/Default.aspx)