IMC Rating

[MightyGem]

Why do I, as an ATPL(H), have to take a full blown IR course to get an instument rating? Why can't an ATPL(H) fly on an IMC rating like a PPL?

After all, how many of us want, or need, to be able to fly airways? Most of the time all we need is the ability to get through some bad weather safely, instead of groping around at low level.

Of course, this question only applies to the UK.

[Tandemrotor]

If you want your IF ability compared to that of a Private Pilot with 40 odd hours under his belt, fair enough an IMC rating would do it.

But if you want others to rely on your IF ability, why wouldn't you do an IR? There's nothing terribly difficult about it you know!

PS. It's a popularly held misconception that you need to be flying 'in cloud' to require IF skills!

In a helicopter, that frequently isn't true!

And once you are IMC, who knows where you may need to go to get out of it!

Think more carefully about it mate.

PPS. I too was a Police pilot for over 7 years.

Cheers

[Gomer Pylot]

More UK strangeness. In the US, an ATP certificate automatically gives you an instrument rating unless it is limited to VFR only, and they no longer give those. The ATP checkride is almost all IFR.

[SASless]

Now that is odd....14 exams and all that and still no Instrument Rating on an ATPL? Sounds like the "Old" way of doing a VFR ATP in the old days back when Bell 47's and Hiller 12E's were in vogue for commerical work.

Gomer P...I have done the full ATPL and IF rating and yet am to understand some of the things that go on over there. I could never grasp the concept of flying IMC without having an Instrument Rating. Just as I fail to understand airports being closed after dark merely because the Control Tower is closed down.

We shall not digress to asking why every ATC unit along your flight planned path has to have the full details of your trip vice that information they need to clear you through their area. But what the heck...when in Rome I guess.

One other small difference is the lack of Flight Service Stations.

Ah...but surely the CAA now JAA knows best.

[MightyGem]

If you want your IF ability compared to that of a Private Pilot with 40 odd hours under his belt, fair enough an IMC rating would do it

Actually, a PPL needs a minimum of 25 hours AFTER being granted his PPL. A big plus factor is that an IMC rating is only a minimum of 15 hours flying training, as opposed to 50(55 twin) for an full IR. And, it gives you the qualification to make VOR, NDB, DME and VDF approaches.

If, like me, all you want is to be able to get through bad weather into clear air at times, then it seems a viable(and much cheaper) alternative.

[Bravo73]

Mightygem,

Are you sure that you're not confusing your (A)s and (H)s?


There is obviously an PPL(A) IMC rating but, as far as I know, there is no such thing as a PPL(H) IMC rating.


And for the record, anyone who thinks that any IF training in a heli should allow you to fly 'VFR on top' in a single is just nuts. But that's a whole different topic of debate! :yuk:


B73

[tbc]

I asked this very question whilst attending a TSLG meeting some years ago and was advised that the background to the IMC rating for aeroplanes goes back to the issue of plank drivers getting airborne and then 'encountering unexpected' bad weather that forces them to have to fly IFR to get safely back onto some tarmac.

Better to equip them with the 'skills' needed to save the day rather than they crash and burn.

Helicopters of course can slow down, go down and if necessary land in fields so there was never an equivalent safety case for an IMC(H).

The fact that some IMC(A) holders treat it as a 'cheap and cheerful' IR and leap off in obvious 'dodgy' weather is another matter.

[Tandemrotor]

Actually, a PPL needs a minimum of 25 hours AFTER being granted his PPL. A big plus factor is that an IMC rating is only a minimum of 15 hours flying training

I stand corrected. there was me thinking that as a professional pilot you aspired to the standards of a PPL(A) with only 40 hours under his belt. When in fact you meant 65!

Presumably the aircraft you fly, is worth a penny or two? So why would you worry about the expense of an IR. I imagine it is very small beer in the grand scheme of things, and as an 'employee',(I presume?) is unlikely to fall onto your shoulders?

Do you settle for second best in any other area of your flying?

Why IF, which can save your, and your passenger's lives? Lack of proficiency in this area has certainly cost a few!

tbc. Please see my earlier quote about 'popularly held misconception'. Not always easy to "land in a field" when it's dark.

What price your life?

[Whirlygig]

Presumably the aircraft you fly, is worth a penny or two? So why would you worry about the expense of an IR.

Because in the UK, the aircraft is owned by an operator and it's not unheard of for the pilot to pay for his own IR which will use up the thick end of £30,000! That's why one would worry!

....and while we're on the subject .... A PPL(A) can do his Night Qualification 25 hours after qualifying as a PPL(A) but for a PPL(H) it is 100 hours! And it's the same qualification whereas an IR and IMC rating are different!

Cheers

Whirls

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I remember getting my IMC on a PPL(A) a long time ago - those trips to LFAT were always much more fun if you came out on top !! Sometimes you didn't find it and you caked it, so went back to the blue again !

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing !

IMC = Russian Roulette - trust me !

[Brilliant Stuff]

Isn't that the crux of the problem, Money. I believe most of the Police helicopters are single pilot IFR machines, but the a number of the pilots flying them are not IR rated because the industry are not willing to pay the expense. I know the old argument about how you can not do police work in cloud, but how come we have got the kit then? My instructor always tells me since you have all the toys in your A/C I want to see you using them. It will take another accident before people wise up. Accidents cost far more money compared to a little training.

I also know there is a lot of negative stigma associated with instrument flying, which in parts is unjust. Maybe I was lucky with my instructors but I actually like flying on instruments when the going gets tough.

But this is only my opinion and what do I know, I only got a little experience in this game.

The 55hour instrument training is a bit much, anyone know why so many hours? 15 should be enough I would have thought.

[Needlesplit]

Is it not the case that, as there is no single engine IFR in UK, (probably a bad thing I know but hey thats what we've got):ugh: There is, therefore no IMC(H). No one flying a twin heli would waste their time (or THEIR money) with half a rating as it wouldn't be acceptable to an employer. Even commercially used R44s and Jet rangers etc have to stay VMC (officially) so what good would it be.

In warmer climes of course (or dare i say more aviation friendly countries) where single engine IFR is OK, it might be a good idea except for the fact that IR's dont cost the earth there and you can get full inst. tng for sensible money. Still if you cant take a joke... you shouldnt have joined:=

[Tandemrotor]

Because in the UK, the aircraft is owned by an operator and it's not unheard of for the pilot to pay for his own IR which will use up the thick end of £30,000! That's why one would worry!

I know.

I've got one.

I paid for it!

[Whirlygig]

I know.

I've got one.

I paid for it!

...and did you worry about the cost?

Cheers

Whirls

[tbc]

Having an IFR machine and then having an IR pilot to fly it is not the complete picture I would suggest, especially for those Emergency Services operations.

How many operations carry sufficient fuel to comply with IFR, have the appropriate facilities (airfields and procedures) for departure and particualry arrival etc.?

Then of course there is the 'keeping it current' costs which could be quite high of course given transit times to and from these 'facilities.

Not all the Emergency Services helicopters are IFR capable in fact a quick 'head count' from memory suggests that some 40% of current police helicopters are not approved for Single Pilot IFR. For the current HEMS fleet I believe that some 57% are not approved for Single Pilot IFR.

I also believe that 2012 is the planned 'out' date for the last Police 'VFR' helicopter.

[Tandemrotor]

tbc

I don't think anybody is necessarily suggesting 'planned' IFR transits. Though since the majority of these machines are also used in the offshore environment, clearly fuel capability can't be an issue!

What (IMHO) is worrying is the attitude of:

"If, like me, all you want is to be able to get through bad weather into clear air at times, then it seems a viable (and much cheaper) alternative."

This attitude can easily lead to an insidious reduction in safety standards!

Once you enter cloud, you need to know exactly what you are doing!

Again IMHO, it is not acceptable to be bumbling in and (hopefully!) out of cloud, when you have other people's souls aboard!

Quoting cost as an issue, is also difficult for me to reconcile.

Whirls: Please check you pms

[Gomer Pylot]

I admit to being pig-ignorant of UK regulations, but am I reading this thread correctly in understanding that there are two different ratings being discussed, one a full instrument rating and the other something less than that? Perhaps I'm just confused. In the US, there is one instrument rating. It's good for the category(ies) of aircraft you fly, and may be used for either PPL or CPL. An ATPL holder doesn't have a separate instrument rating, because that's assumed and required for the ATP.

I don't have a copy of the UK regs, nor the JARs, nor the interest in reading them, because I don't suffer from insomnia. Could someone briefly explain this issue to a colonial?

[Whirlygig]

No doubt someone will whoop my ass for this but...as I see it... the IR(H) (UK JAA) covers both flying in accordance with certain airspace regs but could be VMC and flying IMC i.e one can fly IFR in VMC (Class A?)

Maybe the suggestion could be that these two elements are separated?

Cheers

Whirls

[SASless]

No doubt someone will whoop my ass for this but...

They better bring a bag lunch from what I recall! They will be at it for a while to get it all done!;) ;)


You raise a good point however.....if one only has an IMC rating but is VMC, can one file IFR within Controlled Airspace or would a full IF rating be required?

In the USA, one must have a current Instrument rating to file IFR no matter the weather. One may call upon Approach or Center and do "practice" instrument approaches without having an instrument rating but the "caveat....Remain clear of cloud or maintain VMC" will be part of the ATC clearance.

[Whirlygig]

And what exactly are you saying Sassy?

Cheers

Whirls

[malabo]

We do get a little bent out here in the bush, a world away from the UK. Some pilots in my neck of the woods have been known to only ever airfile an IFR clearance - because on an airfile ATC never requested the pilot license number, hence they completely dodged the requirement to have any IFR rating at all.....

[jab]

Having an IFR rating is a great idea and does improve overall knowledge and skill. I have kept mine legal, but not necessarily current, for years at great expense but it has made me more marketable and hopefully safer. Would I be happy going into IMC right now? No!
I think of going IMC as an emergency unless I have planned for it and that means being current and having all the necessary charts with me. The danger in going IMC without planning for it is that you dont know what youre getting yourself into. Trying to climb through clouds of an unknown depth is stressful and once you do get above them, where are your charts and where are you going to? Staying in the clouds is not an option for me unless I,and the machine, are equipped for it.
When flying in remote areas without met reports and Navaids, it is sometimes possible to get yourself into an uncomfortable situation. I have been forced to climb through clouds and fly on top but have a personal limit. If I have not found better circumstances within 15 minutes, I turn around and go back to where I know I can get back down again. It's better not to climb through them in the first place but over dense jungle or water with nowhere to even land, its the lesser of the evils. However, that is not the case in the UK where there are other options. Also consider that you may be climbing into icing conditions and thats just going to make your bad day get even worse.
Having an IF Rating does not enable anyone to punch into clouds regardless but it may save your life if you run out of other options. I try very hard not to run out of options but Murphy is alive and well. Get the IF Rating but if you plan on using it to get back home in dodgy weather, make sure you and the helicopter are prepared.

[Helinut]

Stick police role equipment, police loose equipment and 3 portly peeps onto an SPIFR EC135 and there is not too much MAUM left for fuel. You might be IFR capable as you leave the base, but you would have diddly squat endurance on task if you keep the necessary IFR fuel for a missed approach AND diversion fuel to a REAL diversion airfield, where the weather forecast was different from your intended arrival.

The UK regulations are an overly complex nightmare. Briefly:

The IMC Rating is a purely UK thing and is only applicable to plank PPLs and CPLs. It is not included in JAR and so even if you have one you cannot use it outside the UK. My guess is that pressure for conformity within EASA will make it disappear at some point. With it a pilot can file IFR and fly in IMC in some airpsace but not Class A. Approach minima are much higher than for the IR.

The other confusion is that "old" pilots like MG will probably have national UK ATPL(H)s prior to JAR FCL. They got these just by having more hours than a CPL(H). The JAA ATPL(H) requires an IR, as I believe does the FAA.

The reality (in the UK) is that almost all hele pilots wanting IRs have to pay for them themselves, which is c**p, but the way that our crazy industry is......

For me, the big issue for the IR is keeping it really current, if you don't have a lot of IFR/IMC experience in the past.

[rotorspeed]

MightyGem

You say: "Most of the time all we need is the ability to get through some bad weather safely, instead of groping around at low level."

I think the issue here is that (subject to location) in a helicopter you can quite happily and safely descend to fly at say 500ft in poor weather and possibly lower, depending on what's beneath you. If you're going to go IMC you need to be at a height of at least 1000ft unless climbing out or making an approach, so it's not really going to help you, especially as now in the UK you can transit over built up areas at 1000ft rather than the previous 1500ft. Also as Tandemrotor said, once in IMC, you can never be sure what it's going to take to get out of it.

The competence one learns with an IR has little to do with going Airways, (I've never done that since my IR training) but for me it's really about being able to confidently plan and execute flights and particularly approaches in IMC, even on on a wet claggy night with a 300ft base, knowing that if you do what you've been taught it will be a pleasure and not a worry - perhaps becoming a crisis or worse.

Flying SPIFR can be a very lonely place and I've never regretted the investment of time and money of an IR to protect my life - and my passengers'.

[Tandemrotor]

Helinut

The reality (in the UK) is that almost all pilots (FW and RW!) wanting IRs have to pay for them themselves! Which is c**p, but the way that our crazy industry works!

It's just that the overwhelming majority of commercial helicopter pilots have had precious little else to pay for, having been trained by Her Majesty.

The only difference is that it has always been possible in the UK, to hold an ATPL on helicopters without one! This anomaly is due to the fact that in a helicopter, in daylight, overland, it is not normally necessary to fly an approach to an airfield in order to land in poor weather.

I first flew a police helicopter in the UK nearly 18 years ago. (Weren't many of us around then!) At that time, you weren't required to have any IF skills, or experience at all, (plenty didn't!) and practising such skills was positively frowned upon! The debate has at least moved on a little since then.

I have never understood why there has been so much resistance from pilots for the introduction of a more professional approach in what is potentially the most challenging form of civilian flying! Much of this resistance actually has little to do with cost.

Please forgive me if this sounds like inter-service rivalry, it genuinely isn't meant that way, but I have also to say that much of this resistance comes from those with a background in the one service that appears to emphasise IF the least.

I know of more than one very nasty police helicopter accident, in this country alone, where inability to fly VFR, and little option to do anything else, has played a very significant role. I have also been there myself (there but for... etc.) It ain't comfortable, and it's very lonely!

You guys flying police helicopters do a fantastic job, sometimes in extremely difficult conditions, when your average Joe wouldn't consider flying at all. Equip yourself with the very best skills you can. Sooner or later you, or someone like you, is going to need them.

Embrace the IR guys, in fact 'push' for it! You deserve nothing less from responsible employers (Yes, I do know how the police regard this flying 'lark', but if they can't afford to do it properly, they shouldn't be doing it at all! It is all too easy for me to imagine that, "when the wheel comes off", your passengers, or heaven forbid, their families, will be very well taken care of. You will be the one with the questions to answer!)

[Helinut]

Tandemrotor,

Thanks for that - Certainly food for thought. I think that I probably agree with you in the sense that IR training and currency should happen for the police.

Because we have 1 hour of IF already scheduled into our training every 6 months, this could be used to renew and stay current, once we were IR rated. Even better if it was supplemented with simulator which, of course, is now available. This is not only good value but would allow the Unit aircraft to remain online, if it replaced some of the current IF training.

[N Arslow]

One hour of training every three months I believe.
And I am all for it - make us all IR. But not sure that spending half a year's wages of my own money for it is the right way to go. A lot easier when things are looking too sporty to say "out of limits". That IS what they are there for - right? With the IR it would give us a safe option if we went to see what the weather was like away from the field, and finding it worse than we could reasonably predict.
That would have been a lot more handy to me over the last while, than having NVG capability but there I digress...

[MightyGem]

IR training and currency should happen for the police.
Yes, it would be nice, but who's going to pay for it? Plus, we don't really need to fully airways capable to do our job, and, I would imagine, neither do a lot of other pilots. All they need is to be able to say, "the weather's getting a bit s****y, the airport 20 miles away has 5kms and 1000' cloudbase, I'll give them a call and climb out of here".

Why pay for something you don't need?

[Brilliant Stuff]

I am with Tandemrotor.

We have the kit, then why not use it properly. As for cost, I can only see it costing a tiny bit more. After all we already fly the 60-90 minutes of IF every 3 months. So in my naive mind all the company would have to pay for is the type rating for which they then can bond you for.
Therefore to me it looks to easy, so what am I missing oh great ones?