What is a "Mountain"?

[SASless]

We all talk about "mountains", "mountainous regions", the US FAA even declare some places "Mountainous Areas".

What is the conventional wisdom about what makes a hill a mountain?:confused:

[N Arslow]

>3000ft I thought

[Whirlygig]

I live in Norfolk. What's a hill?

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlybird]

I thought it was over 1000ft, but I'm not certain. Wasn't there some film about a guy going up a hill and coming down a mountain, based on measuring the height or something similar?

[Nigel Osborn]

It's 2000 feet.

[22clipper]

Sasy, stop makin' mountains out of mole hills with this over emphasis on technical definitions. A mountain is any landform you can't get over with some aft cyclic. ie you actually have to go to all the trouble of loosening the friction & using some collective.

[SASless]

View of Mt. Rainier (14410 feet MSL) near Seattle...taken from top of Mt. Adams (12,281 feet MSL)

There is a string of these dormant or not so dormant volcanoes....including Mt. Saint Helen which blew its top not so long ago. When it blew....it lost 1,300 feet of elevation.

http://www.skimountaineer.com/Trips/AdamsSki/Adams-Rainier98.jpg

[R22DRIVER]

I see that mountain range everyday i fly Sassy. Great views. I just hope Little Miss Helens stays asleep! Dont think my R22 could outrun a pyroclastic cloud!!:eek:

[Gomer Pylot]

Yes, I remember seeing most of a British movie about this subject. The locals wanted their hill to be designated a mountain, and were trying to influence the surveyors, while also carrying dirt to the top to make it higher. I forget the necessary height. That was in the UK (Eire? Scotland? Wales? can't remember) and I suspect it may vary in other places. In any case, the distinction only matters as a factor in local prestige. If you can't tell by a quick glance, it's a hill IMO.

I live on the US gulf coast, so anything more than 3 feet high is a hill, and mountains simply don't exist. It's a little different in the Rockies.

Speaking of movies, there was a short-lived TV series here that was supposedly set in Houston, TX, and the opening sequence always showed the city skyline with definite mountains in the background. We always laughed, and the rest of the program was ruined for us. It didn't last a full season, IIRC.

[SASless]

The USFS provides helicopter delivered PortaLoo's so climbers do not "spoil" the view.

Mt. Baker 10,778 feet MSL

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/7167/mtbaker_1.jpg




Is this a mountain? 4404 feet MSL

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/fortwilliam/bennevis/images/withfwx-450.jpg

[heliduck]

Heliducks dictionary - "Mountain = Any object made of Terra-firma which projects above skid height while power available is less than power required to rise above said terra-firma".

Mt. Everest or an ant hill, same result!!

[NickLappos]

"Mountainous Regions" are defined with a map in the Airman's Information Manual.

see:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0506.html#jiG154JACK

[John Eacott]

According to Wiki, it all depends


In the United States, a mountain is 1,000 feet (304.4 metres) or more in height from bottom to summit. A hill is 500 (152.4 metres) to 999 (304 metres) feet. A discernible hill that is less than 500 feet high is a knoll. A series of knolls constitutes a rolling plain. A plain is generally considered flat if it has no significant prominences (e.g., "hills" less than 20 feet high, though the range of height varies for a plain to be considered flat).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]

[/URL]
United Kingdom

In [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_and_Wales"]England and Wales (http://www.pprune.org/forums/) the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_for_Environment%2C_Food_and_Rural_Affairs) has defined "mountain" (as a mass noun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_noun)) as all land over 600 metres, for the purposes of right to roam legislation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countryside_and_Rights_of_Way_Act_2000). This is a close metric equivalent of 2,000 feet (609.6 m). [4] (http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/consult/access/statut.htm) The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Reform_%28Scotland%29_Act_2003) does not appear to draw this distinction, and in Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) the term "mountain" is more subjective, often being used for hills exceeding 3,000 feet (914.4 m) listed as Munros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munro), as well as many lower hills which are distinctive or mountainous. In the United Kingdom the term "hill" is commonly used for all hills and mountains, regardless of height.

[albatross]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/RAC/2-1.htm#2-12

2.12 Mountainous Regions
Designated mountainous regions are areas of defined lateral dimensions specified in the Designated Airspace Handbook, above which special rules concerning minimum IFR altitudes to ensure obstacle clearance (CAR 602.124) apply.

An aircraft, when operated in accordance with IFR within designated mountainous regions, but outside of areas for which minimum altitudes for IFR operations have been established (including minimum radar vectoring altitudes, MOCAs, transition altitudes, 100NM safe altitudes, MSAs and AMAs), shall be flown at an altitude of at least 2000 feet above the highest obstacle within 5NM of the aircraft in flight when in areas 1 and 5, and at least 1500 feet above the highest obstacle within 5NM when in areas 2, 3 and 4. (See Figure 2.10.)

As minimum enroute IFR altitudes have been established for designated airways and air routes, such minimum altitudes shall be applied when flying in accordance with IFR along airways or air routes within designated mountainous regions, except that aircraft should be operated at an altitude which is at least 1000 feet higher than the minimum enroute IFR altitude, when there are large variations in temperature and (or) pressure. (See RAC 8.5)

Figure 2.10 – Designated Mountainous Regions in Canada

[170']

In log book terms for mountain experience, I always thought it was 5000'
I keep a track of mountain time, as some contracts call for minimum experience...

Can´t imagine anyone has much interest in your experience around 1000' mountains? There are bigger slopes in PNG runways :E

[Flingwing207]

Ye may be mixin' yer metaphors (so to speak). You won't find too many mountains that are 5,000' top-to-bottom, but would you call a 700' hill rising out of a 6,500' MSL plain a mountain?

Certainly MSL altitude factors into what we know as "mountain flying", but I've flown over a 2000' vertical rise mountain at 2600' MSL, and I've flown 500' AGL over table-flat terrain with 6100' on the altimeter.

[Max Contingency]

Britmil definition (taken from Safety Altitude instructions) is 3000' and above.


'If the flight is to take place over mountainous terrain - defined as terrain of 3000 ft AMSL or higher - the increment should be increased to 2000 ft.'

Thats the one i've always used.

Mountain flying. If the wind is greater than 10kts, you can keep it thank you very much. :=

[170']

Flingwing.

You lost me on the mixed metaphors bit, but that´s not hard to do ;-)

I take your point though...!

Just for consistency. I wouldn´t log a landing on a 700' hill sticking out of a 6500' plain as mountain time.

I log mountain ranges (more than an isolated hill) over 5000' as mountain time. I don´t log flying thru them or over them. Only if I´m working the area consistently, seismic,drills,fires etc. With repetitive landings, departures or longline approaches.

I´m not challenging anyone´s right to call anything a mountain. I´m just a little surprised, I thought everyone thought mountains were over 5000'.

Beat´s me where I got the idea from....

There again it could have been the forms I've had to fill out for high elevation jobs, where the insurers want to know how much time you have working above 5000' ...I thought this was what constituted a Mountain.

I´m proven wrong, yet again! :ouch:

170'

ps...sorry for the thread creep!

[SASless]

Britmil definition (taken from Safety Altitude instructions) is 3000' and above.
'If the flight is to take place over mountainous terrain - defined as terrain of 3000 ft AMSL or higher - the increment should be increased to 2000 ft.'
Thats the one i've always used.
Mountain flying. If the wind is greater than 10kts, you can keep it thank you very much. :=

Thus when flying over vast parts of the Western US and Canada over reasonably flat terrain but at an elevation of 5,000-7,000 MSL you would increase your height above ground and not fly in winds higher than 10 knots?

State of Wyoming for example....

http://www.classbrain.com/artstate/uploads/wy-elevation-map.jpg

[Hiro Protagonist]

This has been a topic much on my mind lately, as I hope to be usfs/oas carded by next spring, and I'll need 200 hours of "mountain time".

The problem... no one can tell me the definition of mountain time.

People seem in agreement that here in the states, the forest service used to define mountain time as "above 5,000' density altitude" and some other references to steep terrain and high winds etc. However, I've been told by a reliable source who I've never know to be wrong, that the current contracts require 7,000' pressure altitude to count as mountain time.

On the other hand, I've seen people get carded without this time above 7,000' PA. and I've also heard that the usfs has referenced the AIM definition referenced above by Nick, which is a far cry from the restrictive definition above. :ugh:

Anyone here know any more about what the USFS is defining mountain time as?

[rudestuff]

The US Geological Survey Manual says this:

Mountain Flying: Helicopters.
Conducting flight operations in mountainous terrain including pinnacle landings and approaches at varying elevations and pressure altitudes of over 5,000 feet above sea level at temperature ranges above 75ºF, and in areas of rugged peaks, deep canyons, cliffs, rock outcropping, steep slopes; including landing on mountain tops and confined areas surrounded by trees, brush, rocks, snow, or ice.

Found it here:
http://www.usgs.gov/usgs-manual/handbook/hb/445-2-h/a275.html

But then again, they also talk about pressure altitudes above sea level - and it looks like if the temp is below 75f its not mountain flying either. I guess Everest is just a hill to the USGS. I did find something once on either the USFS or OAS websites that defined their idea of mountain flying - something quite sensible that referred to a certain increase in altitude over a certain distance. I think i'll try to look it up again.

[FredFri]

French regulations define mountainous terrain as terrain of 5000 ft or higher.

They don't mention any "AMSL", "density altitude" or "pressure altitude", but clearly the "topographic altitude" that is not subject to change (the Everest is always at 8848 meters, whatever the altimeter setting or temperature are!)

[170']

Hire protagonist..

Preparing for a OAS checkride, is like preparing to breathe. Not a big deal..These guys are not going to bust your chops.. just fly safe and conservatively, and you´ll be thru it in no time!
............................................................ .................

OAS was always 5000' for mountains..Just elevation!

CDF are the only ones who ever really checked anyway!

170'

[SASless]

Last USFS checkride was pure pleasure....emphasis is on safety...safety...safety. As it should be.

[B Sousa]

Nope...A mountain is a place where one can find Aircraft parts usually about 300' from the top.

As to the OAS rides. I have had a few. Always been a learning experience with some good Pilots.

[Gomer Pylot]

My last OAS checkride was years ago, in an AS350D. The check pilot came all the way down from Boise to do it, and had never been inside an AS350. It was for flying in the Gulf of Mexico, and while he wasn't that happy about landing on platforms, he insisted on seeing slope landings. It wasn't that easy to find a place with enough slope for him, and we would never land on one of those places, but that's what he wanted to see. If you can fly the helicopter without scaring the examiner, you're good to go, but you'll have to do slope landings.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Hire protagonist..

Preparing for a OAS checkride, is like preparing to breathe. Not a big deal..These guys are not going to bust your chops.. just fly safe and conservatively, and you´ll be thru it in no time!
............................................................ .................

OAS was always 5000' for mountains..Just elevation!

CDF are the only ones who ever really checked anyway!

170'


Thanks for the kind words all. I'm not terribly stressed about the checkride/flying (though I will be when I've got one scheduled), as I've done the job, (often as the pilot flying and always as the pilot communicating) while I was a co-pilot last summer, plus three years as a ground-pounder, and feel fairly comfortable (for a rookie) in that environment.

SASless said...
Last USFS checkride was pure pleasure....emphasis is on safety...safety...safety. As it should be.

One of my favorite things about flying on fires is this focus on safety. I can't think of another customer who's going to say, "Oh, you can hover OGE with a 2,000 lb. load under today's conditions? Great, I demand that you take no more than 1,700 lbs. then." :D

When I was helitack, we used to recon for five minutes looking at landing spots near the fire, and then (invariably it seemed) fly to SAFER spots farther (seemed liked miles) away.

Every time I've smelled smoke this summer, I've had the urge to try to call air attack, and offer the use of my pax. as some sort of scary, type III hand crew (dressed in skirts and shorts, high heels, flip-flops, whatever), and maybe we could get some WORK done! But alas, we carry no hand tools on our tours, so I've just continued on to the picnic spot.:ok:

I can meet the mountain time requirement if it's 5,000' DA, but if it's the higher def. I'm looking for some work up high.

Sorry for the thread creep.

[SASless]

Grand Tetons looking West....I think would qualify as Mountain flying in anyone's book.

Valley averages 6400 feet MSL, Tetons have 12 peaks over 12,000 feet and highest peak 13770 feet MSL.

http://www.gcsdistributing.com/Images/GodsCountry.jpg