What the hell are we supposed to do? [Archive]

Lucifer

28th Aug 2006, 00:46

Single question:

Did you ever do any selection to determine your ability before paying over the cash?

Paying for modular training, unselected, and on a course which you know is not what an airline prefers is not only highly risky but highly foolish. Considering the market has probably now passed its peak, it can only be a salutory lesson for someone considering investing his cash, that a hardworking modular chap cannot find an airline job.

The airlines want a low training risk person, with one verifiable training record who can be trained in minimum time from a known standard.

If you have not followed all the advice here and elsewhere and done something else, then I am sorry, but the market has decided.

We are not in a game of charity here - there are too many people who desparately want to be pilots. And that quite frankly leads to too many people giving too much to be pilots, and doing it the cheap does not help at all.

Consider this - there is a reason integrated students are employed above all others. And it is not due to a conspiracy. It is (surprisingly) as they are what the airlines want.

As an aside - watch the X Factor and consider how different the terrible pop star wannabes are from all those who want to get into flying, and ignore all advice, and play it by their own rules. There may be some who make it, but most do not.

Fancy Navigator

28th Aug 2006, 07:29

That's right don't bother. After all if nobody bothered there wouldn't be an aviation industry and, therefore, you wouldn't need to bother would you:ugh:

Yes, I would not advise anybody to bother....

There will always be people doing it anyway....

But,

Don't do it if:
- You have to borrow lots of £££. You will only shoot yourself in the foot.
- You do it following modular/self-improver route
- You do not have good contacts, ie your uncle is the chief pilot at xxx or your best pal is a captain at xxx

That is all it comes down to nowadays. CV's are a waste of time, and as I said, it is not what you know, but who you know, regardless of ability.

:{ :ugh:

shaun ryder

28th Aug 2006, 08:42

Single question:
(Paying for modular training, unselected, and on a course which you know is not what an airline prefers is not only highly risky but highly foolish.)

Oh Yeah? So everyone who does this is foolish?

(The airlines want a low training risk person, with one verifiable training record who can be trained in minimum time from a known standard.)

So obviously if are not able to got the integrated route, you will never be worthy of being a proffessional pilot?

(If you have not followed all the advice here and elsewhere and done something else, then I am sorry, but the market has decided.)

So all the advice here is obviously the best?

(We are not in a game of charity here - there are too many people who desparately want to be pilots. And that quite frankly leads to too many people giving too much to be pilots, and doing it the cheap does not help at all.)

Doing it on the cheap, do me a favour!

(Consider this - there is a reason integrated students are employed above all others. And it is not due to a conspiracy. It is (surprisingly) as they are what the airlines want.)

Not true either!

(As an aside - watch the X Factor and consider how different the terrible pop star wannabes are from all those who want to get into flying, and ignore all advice, and play it by their own rules. There may be some who make it, but most do not.)

A poor example!

Lucifer, you are full of it!:D

wingbar

28th Aug 2006, 08:51

I agree Shaun, he is full of Tripe,

He evidently hasn't even finished his training, and therefore should keep his integrated gob shut.

Because I know several people, who thought that INTEGRATED was brilliant, one now sells furniture and the other is at Tesco's - and thats as serious as thunder.

Another thing, my training with the addtion of a 7,000 k rating to be an FI now brings my training costs in excess of most integrated courses thank you lucifer!

And Lucifer when you actually get in this industry, at any level, be careful not to piss anyone off....

WB

Wee Weasley Welshman

28th Aug 2006, 08:53

Wingbar - been where you are now, keep slogging away and you'll probably make it in the next year or so. Things often appear out of the blue in the world of job hunting.

The only advantage to an Integrated course is that the large school MIGHT get a call from an airline looking for new cadets to interview as you approach the end of your training. In this way you MIGHT get an interview and MIGHT get selected for an airline job straight out of school.

If that doesn't happen then six months down the line it doesn't matter if you spent £80k at the Worlds Premier Academy of Aviation Excellence or at Little Piddlington in the Marsh flying club. You'll have a license, no hours and be rusty as hell and therefore fail your simride assessment.

The airlines which sometime advertise saying they require an Integrated training course nearly always end up hiring at least one applicant who did Modular. The exception would be BA. But then BA these days seem to be hiring mostly guys with 1,000's of hours on a jet with another airline.

Getting onto a CTC scheme should be your number one priority. They have placed large numbers of low time cadets with several airlines and look set to continue to do so.

Good luck, its hard to get a first job, always has been.

WWW

wingbar

28th Aug 2006, 08:55

www

No money for CTC, it was all spent you see.......

wingbar

28th Aug 2006, 08:59

Well, I'm just about to get ready for work, I have a 3 hour slot with my next student....thats really going to pay the bills.......then we'll probably get some crap weather....

Still the skys blue at the minute....so I can delay the start at Tesco's a little longer.....

WB

speedrestriction

28th Aug 2006, 09:02

Paying for modular training, unselected, and on a course which you know is not what an airline prefers is not only highly risky but highly foolish.

I disagree. I was on a modular course, all of us "unselected", of which half of us now have jobs lined up.

It is risky, it is of course a gamble but it is facile to suggest that it is "highly foolish" to go down the modular route.

What is highly foolish is to spend any large amount of money without informing oneself of the risks involved.

Wingbar: Best of luck.

SR

Bobs-Your-Uncle

28th Aug 2006, 09:10

I'm looking at doing the Instructor thing for 18 months.

If my maths is right can someone tell me if this is the case?

£15 x 600hrs = £9000 before tax

Not worth getting out of bed for.

What sort of hours per year does a good instructror get at a busy school?

Cheers/Bob

shaun ryder

28th Aug 2006, 09:27

Yes Bob the pay is Gash! No doubt! There are lots of plus points however. As www said no flying = rusty skills and failed sim rides etc. Its a first step on the aviation ladder if you like. You meet people and broaden your approach and knowledge of aviation. I was an instructor and it hurt me financially ofcourse, I can safely say however, there is no way I could have moved on if it were'nt for that rating. Faces and contacts are the key, it never did me any harm or the many other MODULAR guys (Lucifer!!) who now fly jets with whom I worked with.

Weather pending, a busy school could in theory provide you with maybe as much as 20hrs per week. Possibly more, who knows? The money might not be worth getting out of bed for, the flying sure is.

Good luck, you work hard, you get results....In the end lol!

shaun ryder

28th Aug 2006, 09:30

Oh wingbar, have some good flying today old boy.

You will come out the other side smiling mate!

Lembrado

28th Aug 2006, 09:50

Morning

Echo comments made by SR.

Found comments by Lucifer a little insulting being of modualar background myself, implying modular = inferior quality pilot. Poor show on your part old boy!

Anyway.

Wingbar - come on, its a fantastic day for flying today go and enjoy it. Most ex-instructors can testify to having crap days, apart from anything else stay positive for your student (I'm sure you do).

I think that you are in a great position, I would say keep instructing till you have over 1000 hrs total, than maybe go part-time; working in an airline ops department the rest of the time. I have said this before in previous posts. You will make good contacts whilst earning a better living.

In your post you mention about a company that you have been recruited for telling lies - care to elaborate.

Keep going, keeping putting the effort in and you will get there.

Im going off to enjoy the day with the missus.

L.

Mooneyboy

28th Aug 2006, 10:43

Just kind of following on from not well paid flying jobs but you are more in it for the experience. I did my first 2 hours aerial photography flying the other day for which I won't charge. But I feel next time I should charge.

How much per hour does a pilot charge for flying a photographer around in a C152?

All the best Mooneyboy

P.S I do have CPL/ME etc....

KandiFloss

28th Aug 2006, 10:52

I feel that I just have to get a bit of a rant of my chest about the comments that 'Lucifer' has made about modular training v's integrated training, as I feel as though she (?) has made some totally unsubstantiated points and irritated lots of us.

Single question:

Paying for modular training, unselected, and on a course which you know is not what an airline prefers is not only highly risky but highly foolish. Considering the market has probably now passed its peak, it can only be a salutory lesson for someone considering investing his cash, that a hardworking modular chap cannot find an airline job.

How would you know? Are you the head of recruitment at an airline? Not every airline prefers integrated pilots.

The airlines want a low training risk person, with one verifiable training record who can be trained in minimum time from a known standard.

True, but if you choose to follow a modular route (possibly the only way that some of us can pursue our dream for various personal circumstances) it does not mean that you do not have the same ability as a student who has chosen to follow the integrated route

If you have not followed all the advice here and elsewhere and done something else, then I am sorry, but the market has decided.

We are not in a game of charity here - there are too many people who desparately want to be pilots. And that quite frankly leads to too many people giving too much to be pilots, and doing it the cheap does not help at all.

I don't think that a modular bill of £30,000 - £40,000 = cheap

Consider this - there is a reason integrated students are employed above all others. And it is not due to a conspiracy. It is (surprisingly) as they are what the airlines want.

As an aside - watch the X Factor and consider how different the terrible pop star wannabes are from all those who want to get into flying, and ignore all advice, and play it by their own rules. There may be some who make it, but most do not.

If you feel this negatively about flying, why are you even bothering?
I don't know what stage of training you are at, but I get the sense that if you do get a job in the rhs, then you will P*** a lot of captains off.

Now, why don't you go back to watching the X-Factor? Maybe you'd do well?

Lucifer

28th Aug 2006, 11:00

Found comments by Lucifer a little insulting being of modualar background myself, implying modular = inferior quality pilot.
That I never said - what I stress is that there is a constantly perpetuated delusion that one can select oneself, train modular and beat the integrated offering.

I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.

I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.

dartagnan

28th Aug 2006, 11:16

guys,

getting a job is just a question of luck.Nothing else!!
the first job I got on turboprop, was after a personal visit to the company .I was lucky, they needed pilots.

then a few months later, the company went bankrupt. so I lost my job.no luck this time...

Recently I was hired by an airline. they asked me :"when did you fly last time?...I answered" 3 weeks ago" and I got the job after a short sim session.this time I was very lucky(fly a jet).

Then the airline told me to wait, now this is 3 months I wait , again I am unlucky...no pay (again)!

at the end: 4-5 interviews in 7 years..., passed only 2.and I am still waiting .

What I want say, it has nothing to do with money, integrated course or not...it is just a question of luck!

the biggest bug in this system, training costs to much, and salaries are very low.
Aviation goes up and down. One day you have a job, the next day you are in the streets begging for money...

veetwo

28th Aug 2006, 11:34

You know, someone told me before I got in to this business that it was extremely risky, and you might spend so much money that you bring your self to the edge of bankruptcy. In fact, more than one person told me that. You then sit down with all the information and make a decision. 12, 24 or 36 months down the line or however long it takes you to finish your training be you integrated OR modular, if you reach the point where their advice proves to be true, then you took the risk and it didn't pay off. Anyone who has half a brain did their research properly before getting involved. You should be as positive as you can be (and certainly put out that vibe at every opportunity), but at the back of your mind be mentally preparing for the worst from the very start. What am I going to do if I don't get a job in the first 12 months, or 24 months, or what if I don't get one at all?

I've seen a number of presentations from airlines over the last few months and to be honest it has been quite disheartening. But at the end of the day, I chose to take the risk and if it doesn't work out I'll have to deal with it. You certainly won't find me posting angry posts on pprune shouting about how the industry is going down the plug hole and how no-one should ever become a pilot, yada yada yada, as so many posts seem to do. Its a personal decision and it will be affected by different factors for everyone.

Nor, by the way, do I think people have any right to slate modular OR integrated students for their choice. Both parties made the decision they thought was best at the time. The guy who has rich parents and went integrated shouldn't have to justify his choice any more than the guy who went modular should have to justify his. You simply can't say definitively that one way is better than the other. Money aside their are so many other considerations - will distance learning suit you or do you need to be in a classroom environment? Do you want to live on site or live in your own place off site?

Regardless of which way you go its all a gamble. You can slightly reduce the risk by going integrated purely because several airlines now have schemes/understandings set up with the big integrated schools and it might (subject to performing well) mean that your CV lands on the right desk at the right time. Im my opinion modular students can also reduce the risk by trying to keep their training auditable and mainly based at a single FTO, and complete it in as shorter space of time as possible. Doing your ATPL's, then waiting months and months to start your CPL, then another X many months for IR and MCC means you start to lack currency, costing you more money to reach the required standard and making your position worse with a prospective employer.

And thats the one thing that has been continually hammered in to me. These days, performance is everything. Airlines will consistently hire the guy who got a clean first time pass rate in his ATPL's with a high average and first time CPL/IR passes, over the guy who had to resit 2 or 3 exams, got a poor average and failed his/her CPL a couple of times before he/she got it. The exact line I've heard mentioned is "we want the best pilots and we make no excuse for that". So maybe if you get to the first set of ATPL's and drop a couple, you should think seriously before investing any more money.

The "its not fair" and "why should integrated students get all the goodies" argument is completely flawed. Firstly, integrated students definately do not get all the goodies. I personally know several modular students hired very recently by major carriers and similarly integrated students who are unemployed. Second, Airlines are commercial companies operating in a highly competitive market place. If, on average, they decide to go to Integrated schools to hire their pilot's, then who are we to question that? They can do whatever they like - indeed whatever they feel is best for their company and moaning and hammering on about it on here is not going to instigate the slightest bit of change. More and more airlines seem to be opting to do this and I can only assume the reason is that at the end of the course, they get a hefty file with results from every single written test and every single training flight - a complete training history. So, instead of having to dig through the thousands of CV's which appear on their desks every day they get handed it on a plate. They can still sift out those who didn't perform as well, but it takes them a tenth of the time, and it only takes 1 guy instead of 5. I haven't come across many modular schools who offer an "integrated style" course at a modular price. I know Oxford do something called waypoint now but I know very little about it. Certainly at the modular school I went to for my PPL, there we very few records kept and those they did keep were for internal use only.

Anyway, in summary having read this thread (and several others) my overriding feeling is that its a shame that so many of us who will hopefully one day work together get drawn in to these ridiculous mud hurling contests without realling knowing anything about the competence or experience of the people we're talking about. I've heard people claim that integrated students are just drones rolled off the production line and that modular students are pretty much inferior because they spent less. Both suggestions are completely ridiculous and pretty insulting. Lets all show a bit more respect.

My two cents.

V2

Dried ears

28th Aug 2006, 12:11

Mooneyboy

I am on my first season of aerial photo work with a company specialising in in high quality photos. It's pipline work, surveys for wind farms, photo documented development of factories, harbours, even a ski slope. I earn £20 per tacho hour, which I think is towards the top end in this field, and I am more than happy with that. It's probably stating the obvious but the mental arithmetic of the theoretical cost per hour has to add in what I'd have to pay to hire an aircraft and fly myself along the coast just to keep current.

Perhaps I'm a happy clapper but my first hour of paid flying made all the hard work and massive expense seem worthwhile. However lacking in glamour I can call myself a commercial pilot and I'm proud of that. Perhaps it'll go no further than this, or maybe I'll be airline bound one day, who knows. Meantime I'll try and stay positive.

Craggenmore

28th Aug 2006, 12:12

getting a job is just a question of luck.Nothing else!!
It can be, but if like WWW says, you get into a CTC scheme then luck plays no part in your success whatsoever. Its down to hard work and the right attitude. CTC don't mind about your training route. If you're a good guy, have the right skills, get on with everyone and act the part (you meet many current and former training captains who have seen it all before), you are highly likely to succeed and deservedly so.
£15 x 600hrs = £9000 before tax, Not worth getting out of bed for.
Well I thought so. I really enjoyed instructing. It lead to my interview running smoother plus it gave more relevant examples of life situations that you are always asked about.

djuice

28th Aug 2006, 12:15

Either you quit or stand up like man. ;)

Lucifer

28th Aug 2006, 12:22

Guys and girls,

I apologise that I appeared quite jumped up, and I think veetwo has posted a much more reasoned response than I initially considered.

I assure you that I don't wish anyone bad luck, nor believe anyone is inferior. My only motive to post is to help people to most effectively spend their money - I have a very strong opinion about that, which as all opinions are may or may not be correct.

I don't want you to misinterpret that opinion as being a slight on your choice. I do want people who are considering investing in the course to make the best possible decision for them, having considered both their abilities and the realistic possibilities of employment with each route.

I do believe that people do make decisions without considering the risks, therefore all the information they can glean from here is of utmost importance. For that reason alone, you get precisely the opposite of bull**** from me.

considering he/she flys the new version of a now defunct British airliner
I presume that you don't get it...?

Tuned In

28th Aug 2006, 13:04

Stick with it, all you instructors out there! I would never have got where I am today without (a) instructing and (b) having gone modular.

In my opinion, I am in the best job in the civilian world for a low-hour pilot with no commitments, light charter. OK, so it might not be ideal for some, but I get paid better than a turboprop FO and some jet FOs, I get lots of variety, some nightstops (up to 3 days stopover) but not too many, a lot of actual flying and the respect of some employers when I wish to move on, with early command.

By the way, to expand on my first comment, (a) I needed 400 hours P1 and 700 hrs TT and (b) my boss would not generally employ a graduate of an integrated course, as they don't have the required qualities. The one I worked with also had problems instructing PPLs, as he didn't really know what a PPL was.there is a reason integrated students are employed above all others. And it is not due to a conspiracyThere is no reason, and it isn't even true! Many people I know from modular courses have done extremely well. I know people from integrated backgrounds who have struggled more in similar circumstances to find a job. The airlines don't want a course, they want a licence and experience. A modular student not only graduates withmore hours but with more money to gain experience or for further courses.

scroggs

28th Aug 2006, 13:25

However deep the BS, I will not tolerate abuse of other posters on this or any other thread. If you can't be polite to each other, go elsewhere.

For all those wannabes reading this thread in increasing desparation, I can assure you that very few posters within this thread have any qualification or experience whatsoever with which to lend credibility to their speculation. The fact is that modular students of good character, who work hard to achieve the best results possible, and who use a modicum of resourcefulness, initiative and determination in their search for a job are still every bit as likely to end up in a jet as the CTC (modular!) or OAT APP student.

Scroggs

jamestkirk

28th Aug 2006, 15:46

Would Anyone Like A Hug

Pilot Pete

28th Aug 2006, 17:38

Just to add to Scroggs' comments; I know dozens of modular trained pilots who have gained airline employment in the last 12 months (and even more before then!) So people like Lucifer need to broaden their outlook a little in order to gain an informed opinion, as opposed to just an opinion.

PP

wingbar

28th Aug 2006, 18:05

Well, what an overwhelming response, nice to know that the misery is't mine alone then....so there are people out there as daft as me........

Really what the hell are we all supposed to do Scroggs??

:}

wingbar

28th Aug 2006, 18:08

I feel so sad, i'm in tears most days....
really i am........

I really want to be an airline pilot, it'sall I have ever wanted to do...and I have sold my soul to do it...still with no glimmer of hope......... :{ :{ :{

A330ismylittlebaby

28th Aug 2006, 18:22

Is my gcse grade e in maths bad as i did do well in maths after gcse but no qualification saying i am better?

here's my big question:

When i see these sponsorship schemes with airlines i am under the conlusion that if i got upto FI stage on my own that they would make me do the whole sponsorship training

like this:
Aug 06. Recruitment for 2007 started. Closing date 30 Oct 06. Min requirement of fATPL, MCC, Class1 medical and right of work in EU. Links through CTC and OAT. They DO NOT accept CVs, online application only. Email: [email protected] ([email protected])
Link: http://www.thomascookjobs.co.uk/USER/airline/pilot.htm (http://www.thomascookjobs.co.uk/USER/airline/pilot.htm)
Jan 05. Planning to open up recruitment sometime in Aug 05 for the start of 2006 vacancies. Keep an eye on their website for details. Frozen ATPL and less than 500 hrs then recruiting for their Cadet scheme through CTC. Direct entry req ATPL and min 1500 hrs. They took on 20 direct entry candidates in 2004, as well as those that were held in a pool.

does that mean i shouldnt do it myself without ctc inorder to get with an airline with an FATPL thus wasting £30000 because they need them from ctc.

Do you think there's an easy route for an FI into airlines like mytravel and first choice?

dartagnan

28th Aug 2006, 19:20

there is no easy route to become a pilot with a job!

one of my friend, got the job BEFORE to become a commercial pilot. Right after his JAR license, he went directly for his jet training and now he flies as a copilot with a family member who owns the plane...

everybody is asking him if they have a job, his answer was: "no, I dont have a job for you, and I can lose my job tomorrow and never get a job back"

what I want say here, it is a risky business, if you can not afford to loose your money and be poor, and maybe never get an airline job(or not an airline job forever)...do something else

Recently I have been in Italy in a meeting. I have met lot of good chaps(50guys).Most told them it was not right to not get an airline job with 300hours...
a captain told them"and what about pilots who are still waiting after 10 years?why dont you go fly and come back later?"

duir

28th Aug 2006, 19:38

Until recently I was in exactly the same position but with more like 1000 hrs and feeling thoroghly fed up with being completely ignored by locally based companies who instead chose min houred integrated youngsters over locally based modular FIs. However within the past month I passed an interview for a TP operator and just found out this week I have another interview next week with another TP operator. It is worth pointing out that both of these companies have a history of employing modular older people and this was why I aimed at them. I really could no longer be arsed with putting the effort in with other companies that I had lost all respect for and aiming at one or two excellent small companies has paid dividends.

Mooneyboy

28th Aug 2006, 20:35

Dried Ears,

Thanks for replying. I think your photography work is more intensive and professional than mine. Mine is very casual so will probaly ask for just over half what you are payed per hour. It seems a pretty good raw flying experience job and felt very good putting in the remarks column in my log 'aerial photography'. Great to get hours where someone else has paid for it no matter what the hours are in.

To this general conversation topic sending CV's and ringing companies and getting little response or good feedback is frustrating spent many days in dispair. Keep ploging away spoke to BA 777 captain said he went through exactly the same situation.

All the best,

Mooneyboy

PAPI-74

29th Aug 2006, 09:10

Maybe we should all meet up and get pi##ed.

dartagnan

29th Aug 2006, 09:18

I have been turned down by a TP operator(I live 10 minutes drive from the airport), reason: "too many hours, we don't want you, you will leave us after 1 year"...
guys who have been hired with less 300h (and live 500km away), have now more experience than me, make more money than me, and are very happy with their new job...

having no experience, is sometimes a good thing!

wingbar

29th Aug 2006, 09:53

In agreement 100%

I wish I had absolutely no experience now and was integrated.....it's such a shame this industry does this to people, again another sleepless night, the banks just called, (they do most mornings) and again me in tears......

low n' slow

29th Aug 2006, 10:19

Cheer up.
6 months ago I was in the exact spot you were in. I remember one day I was so down. Not even climbing helped cheer me up that day (and that is something that usually makes me in a really good mood).
I saw people around me getting jobs and som in airlines that I thought I had had a good chance in allready. I fell in the trap of becomming bitter and eventually it fell into depression. And hear this: Being bitter and depressed is no good vantage point for getting a job! Fight it with everything you can throw at it. Even if it seems pointless (thats the first trick bitterness will try on you...), try to focus and see the little amusements in life. And dont spend too much time on the forums, there's so much bulls:/t flying around in here, that alone will make one bitter and depressed.

Now to some practical advise. You have exactly what a TP operator wants. Therefore, focus on TP operators and work like a commando. Read up on your subject, make the assault, fall back and watch what happens. Follow up and make shure you got the results you wanted. Dont be affraid to look into other countries. Norway has a lot of small TP operators and I suggest you take a peek at www.scanair.no. Chances are they will want you to speak a scandinavian language, but if you are in the right place at the right time, it wont matter.

Keep on trucking and believe it will happen. In the meantime, read the Alcemist. It solved a lot of problems for me.

/LnS

redsnail

29th Aug 2006, 10:28

"What are we supposed to do?"

A couple of guys here have cottoned onto it. Target the employers that are most likely to take you. Also, seek out the smaller operators and actually pay them a visit. No time? Too busy? ok, stay where you are and wail about no prospects.

If it's become screamingly obvious that "Jet operator A" or "charter airline B" won't look at you it's time to change tack. Seek out the smaller operators, whether they be turboprop airlines or smaller biz jet operators. (who by the way are flat out!!)

If you're not prepared to shift a couple of hundred miles for a decent job (ie better than the one you're in) then I would suggest that this is not the career for you. Writing letters to the smaller operators may work but most likely what will work is a face at the door.

Tactics and strategy (plus a good scan) is what's required. You folks do know that an airline is only allowed a certain percentage of inexperienced pilots? So, if an airline is getting bulk of their low houred pilots from CTC and the like do you think that's your best target? By all means have a go but I think you know what the chances are. Does the airline traditionally look at instructors favourably? There are a couple of well regarded piston charter operators that are a great source for pilots.

Look at the new emerging markets. Right now I can tell you that just about every one who's got a bizjet is flat out in the UK. That's an area of aviation that is growing.

easyJet have lowered their requirements, Virgin Atlantic's still hiring, Ryanair have changed their requirements, Netjets Europe need a min of 150 pilots next year. You're probably thinking. Great... they all need X hours. Yes they do, but they need to get the pilots from somewhere which means vacancies in the less well known and/or turboprop companies.

The employment scene hasn't been this good since prior to 2001!! The next slump (which will come, just as night follows day) is estimated to be about 4 years away. (Industry is cyclical. 7-10 year cycle)

haughtney1

29th Aug 2006, 11:46

Just to add another voice to this.........

Scroggs, P Pete, and Reddo know what they are talking about:ok:

The person that secures that job, is the person that uses a little initiative, a little determination, and a lot of persistence. Modular/Intergrated..who gives a S**t, we know very well the spin that comes out of certain FTO's ( its marketing and nothing more, remember they want your money!) promising this that and the next thing.
I can tell you from personal experience that recruitment admin is usually initially handled by an office junior, who wouldnt know the difference between intergrated and modular if it jumped up and bit them on the arse..so its all to play for.
Am I speaking from experience? (we all have our own stories) Ive lived in 4 different countries, been made redundant 3 times..and had to do 3 license conversions. I got my first job (paradropping) after driving 400 miles, sleeping in my car, and catching the chief pilot as he arrived at the dropzone that day.
It took me 2 years to get an interview when I got to the UK....and yet now I'm flying 757's.......so it is down to you making your own luck:ok:
No one on here will give you a free lunch...but there are plenty on here (and in the industry) that know what your going through..and can offer good advice, listen to them, is the best advice I can offer:)

RYR-738-JOCKEY

29th Aug 2006, 11:56

Firstly, one has to realize that an fATPL is only the first step in the direction of getting a paid job as a pilot. Secondly, we all knew that it would be tough, but it seems like lots of aspiring new pilots think the financial hurdle is the biggest. Well, in my view it's a combination of being able to get the job you want and willing to "play it by their rules". All those LoCos out there are screaming for pilots, yet here you are sitting on the fence waiting for better opportunities. I know very well how much sacrifice funding your own TR will cause, but joining a LoCo will give you a fantastic start, and if all goes well, you become a Captain within 3-5 years. This has changed the industry completely, because your expected "life-salary" will increase alot. It would take 10-20 years to become a Captain on a jet, just a decade ago. You get an extra 10 years with a Captain's salary on the bargain, instead of flying SEP's for those ten years in the start of your carreer. I know it's a gamble, but we all knew that from the start...so just "play it by their rules".

EpsilonVaz

29th Aug 2006, 12:26

Negative pessamistic thoughts will get you nowhere. Giving up and feeling sorry for yourself will contribute towards your failure. It's the willingness to push and go on when all feels lost that will take you higher than you could ever dream of.

EpsilonVaz

CPL_Ace

29th Aug 2006, 12:32

For all of you like me who fight to get up in the morning, make a full breakfast of cereal, toast and yoghurt and then log onto to pprune for inspiration on what to do today by way of getting your first gig - always start with a look at threads which start with someone asking about the interview at Jet2 or the selection training at Ezy - before looking at these threads. Everyday I make a point of finding at least one luck git with an interview or even a job (and beleive me there's always at least a couple every day who post). Then go to the HOW TO FIND A JOB thread. Then start again.... ;)

potkettleblack

29th Aug 2006, 13:27

I like these threads cos it actually gives me hope of getting a job as clearly some people can't see the wood for the trees. Let me expand a bit. Lets say you decide that you want to be an instructor. Hopefully you realise by doing this that the recruiting world has changed and you will no longer be held in high regard and have TP operators falling over themselves to employ you when you reach 1500 hours flying a C152. Having said that there are ways to make it work to your advantage. Lets take 2 imaginary instructors and call them Clem and Bob.

1) Clem went out and did his FI at the cheapest place going - incidentally this was his approach to all of his flight training. No job was on offer during or after his FI training. It took a while but eventually he got a job in lets say North Wales with Sleepy Slims Flying Club. They operate a C152 and a C172. The owner reckons they are getting a twin in a few months time and the weather is awesome all year round. You will easily get 600 hours a year the owner tells our budding FI. The pay isn't great but Clem is sure that the twin time will more than make up for it.

2) Bob thought a bit more about what he wanted to do with his FI time and how to make the most of it. He wouldn't settle for a smaller club. He did his FI training at the best school possible and was snapped up before he finished his training. He started at a school that had a couple of twins and plenty of single engine aircraft. It was a busy school with an active club and a great social side as well. The weather was slightly better where Clem was as well. But Bob knew he was onto a winner as the airfield was a hive of activity. There were biz jets based there, light charters, medivac and the odd commercial flight. It was a busy school so Bob knew that he would be able to get some twin time once he had proved himself.

The school never got the twin that was promised and Clem is still there getting his 200-300 hours a year on the C152 when it isn't tech. His flights are mainly trial lessons. Bob on the other hand was networking from day one. He got to know the engineers who just happened to work on the bizjets as well as fix the schools aircraft. They introduced him to some of the commerical pilots operating the aircraft. One day he bumped into one of the pilots in the flying club and brought him some beers. Over the course of the next 6 months he blagged a jump seat ride or two. Then one day the owner came over looking for him. It seems his mate the pilot was moving onto pastures new and his name had been put forward. Bob resigned there and then and has a grin as wide as his face whilst his mate Clem is still wondering where it all went wrong;)

RYR-738-JOCKEY

29th Aug 2006, 15:49

Well put...especially "some people can't see the wood for the trees."
And if you include two guys funding their own TR's, one would easily see their different future paths. One being an FI on SEP's, one flying biz-jets, one struggling a few years getting into a jet cockpit, and one flying 320's/737's within a few months. It's that easy...just take your pick. But of course, getting to the point where you actually can afford paying for a TR is not an easy route. You need to involve family, friends, your friends friends++(been there, done that). But in the end if you succeed, I mean when you succeed, you're alot better off than you-know-who...
However, I will recommend to get into a TRSS rather than just buying it, just like that..

wingbar

29th Aug 2006, 16:23

The banks are after me big style......so I cannot afford the ryanair TR nor could I live from the appauling salary, that excluds me and all of the other very poor people from that wagon.....

WB

haughtney1

29th Aug 2006, 16:33

Wing, you have recieved some bloody good advice on here, don't go spoiling it by moaning about your lot. MOST of us have been there...you now have a choice..either get busy getting a job, or get busy moaning about it, its all really down to you.

PAPI-74

29th Aug 2006, 16:58

Wing,
Why not move schools for a change of scenery. Get onto a busier airport and get your nose stuck in. Give it 3 months in that environment and I'll bet your life changes for the better. A rolling stone...and all that.

OR

Start teaching CPL (if you are not restricted) for a wage boost. Try Cork for a change and get known. They all do business in the bar over there and you'll soon be chatting the the right people.
As has been mentioned, channel your frustrations and think your way out of this. I was actually kept awake by this thread last night, cos I am just about to start my FIC as a said. If it was that easy, every chancer would have a blue book.
Just a thought...have you tried the debt firm 08000 435435. Saw them on TV and they can freeze the interest and in some cases half the loan amount. Let me know, cos I could do with loosing some of my 60K, and I don't mean my Ground School Gut(KGS).
Well that needs to go too.

Machine Man

29th Aug 2006, 17:19

Wingbar: you need to keep the faith, and take note of some of the excellent advice offered by some of the above. potkettleblack has shown you the way it worked for me.

Although my story is more of a combination of the two examples he uses, the pointers are there.

I started flying in 2000, got the licences modularly and when I hit the hard wall I got an FI rating. I knew I couldn't survive on FI pay alone, so I did it part time along with a full-time job. It was hard work keeping both jobs going and I have no desire to work that hard ever again , but it worked!

I thoroughly enjoyed instructing and although a small school, I made good friends and connections. I also kept in contact with the colleagues I trained with. Eventually they all got jobs and it seemed like they were passing me by. They kept telling me to hang in there and it would happen.
They were right.

One of my friends got me an interview with a turbo-prop operator in Scotland. Most airlines place a great emphasis on recommendations. This is where keeping the faith comes in. You must retain your enthusiasm and try to remain positive. If you appear negative, you could blow it. If you havn't done so already, make contact with colleagues you trained with. I bet you some (if not most) at some point will get a job and be able to recommend you.

Be prepared to move. I moved from one end of the country to the other and took a massive pay cut to get the first job. I am now looking at just getting my full ATPL and my future prospects both on the pay and job fronts are very rosey.

One of my closest friends has also just got a job with a turbo-prop operator through recommendation. All of my training friends have now got airline jobs.

It may take years or months; it may take lots of money; it may be a jet or a turbo-prop; but whenever / however it happens belie:ok:ve me it will be worth it!!!

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: Keep the faith!!! :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

Bobs-Your-Uncle

29th Aug 2006, 17:39

Wingbar..

I'm in a similar situation financially, as I'm sure are many others.

Go and speak with you Bank Manager and explain the situation to them in great detail. Put it in writing and come up with a medium and long term payment proposal that shows them you know what the situation is and have a plan to re-pay. It may give you some breathing space if the terms of your loan are re-negotiated. Better still ask at some of the other banks if their T&C's are any better and move the debt to a lower APR or fixed APR.

Good luck.....you're not alone dude.

Cheers/Bob

Vortex Thing

29th Aug 2006, 20:14

That I never said - what I stress is that there is a constantly perpetuated delusion that one can select oneself, train modular and beat the integrated offering.
I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.
I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.
Lucifer what planet are you on?:D
I can only applaud your bravery or stupidity but I have yet to work out which it is to issue such a sweeping and profoundly groundless hypothesis.
I like all of the exmilitary pilots who I went through my courses with went the modular route not becuase we thought it had any advantages to the integrated route but simply as ex military pilots we had little or no choice.
Unless you are trying to imply that in your honest opinion the army, navy and air force are recruiting low grade pilots I would suggest that you want to rethink your view.

Incidentally I fully sympathize with Wingy having gotten to the point that I could no longer afford to support myself as an instructor and had to find non flying work to avoid loosing my house and/or my wife. I doubt that I was alone in this sort of financial trap and think it a little uncharitable that you believe that all modular pilots are:-
a) inferior and b) unemployable :=

Best of luck Wingy hope you get something soon

redsnail

29th Aug 2006, 21:06

Wingbar,

Have you talked to your bank? Have you explained the situation you're in? Yes or no. If you haven't, then you really ought to pronto.

Do that. Then get off the internet and get out networking and seeing smaller operators. If that's too hard then you're a troll.

wingbar

29th Aug 2006, 22:22

The HSBC bank are a set of b*****s!

I have had not 1 not 2 but 6 meeting with them in as many weeks....they are utterly unhelpfull, the only option they can give me is to start closing down...yes,,,,, BANKRUPTCY.......and as being a Troll, it's a wonder i'm still here with all of this crap going on...I just want to go to sleep for a very long time indeed.........

wingbar

29th Aug 2006, 22:26

And I've got a full half days instructing tomorrow...wow....that'll rake the bucks in!

Lets see,, 4 hours x12....erm.....ooo...48 quid !wow!

I may as well paint my arse blue and walk around the streets...no seriously I might as well just do that....

I'm even thinking of going back to that hateful industry.....IT ...full of gits that is, boring geeks, and weirdo's...I worked hard so I could go into flying to get away from that...my fathers had 35 years of it ...and I wasn't going the same route...but tomorrow may be my last day as a full time FI...as I can very sadly no longer afford it all.........

Aviation....what more do you want from me......

wingbar

29th Aug 2006, 22:28

Again another night in tears.....

wingbar

29th Aug 2006, 22:34

Although, I want to thank people on here for their kind suggestions and comments, I will try to take them in and do the best I can....but I am not sleeping much at the minute which eventually is going to lead to fatigue...\

Vmike

30th Aug 2006, 01:01

On the subject of paying for type ratings: About fifteen years ago, I was a desperate, unemployed fATPL with about 1,000 hrs of light pistons. The idea of paying for ratings was only just coming in and I approached a couple of airlines and offered them a deal. The conversations went something like this:

me: How about if I pay for a type rating?
them: if you like.....
me: well, how about you interview me, and if you offer me a job, I will then go and do a type rating at the TRTO of your choice.
them: hmmmm, go and do the type rating first and then we'll see about giving you an interview.
me: BIG risk on a 'maybe' - I think not.

In the end, I didn't pay for a rating. Luckily, some years later, I managed to get into a decent company and now I'm a 737 captain, so that all worked out in the end without having to pay through the nose for the privilege.:ok:

Wee Weasley Welshman

30th Aug 2006, 07:31

Wingbar - you don't have it that bad. You are building hours every day and keeping current and at present the job market is historically good. Try winding back your position 5 years to the months and years following Sept 11th and I assure you that your life is a piece of cake compared to those that filled your current slot back then...

Why are you so scared of the bank? What is the worst they can do? Bankrupt you? Boo hoo. Unless you need a mortgage and credit card for the next two years or have a classic Ferrari in the garage you can't bear to see the baliffs in then just chill out. You are only 25 and I'm guessing don't have a family mortgage and children to consider.

Whatever happens, ie you leave the industry or stick with it - for heavens sake do not become that thing I hate most passionately: The Hostile Flying Instructor. We've all seen one or have heard one.

Prowling the flying school landscape developing a psychological hatred of the industry, the bank and the humble student. Unstable through a feeling of entrapment the hostile instructor is liable to lash out at any target. No longer interested in providing quality training he has one eye fixed on the Hobbs meter, another on his bank statement as his mind plods through the bare bones of the lesson. The hostile instructor appears to have a very small, highly localised CB floating just above his head and is to be avoided at all costs as a PPL.

As always, good luck with it all,

WWW

Brie

30th Aug 2006, 07:46

Hello,

I'm following this debate every day. All i can advice you (Wingbar) is stick with it but make sure you feel good and comfortable in every decision you make.
A month ago i was a job beiing offered (after almost 2 years) but finally i rejected.(My friends say that i'm a big fool) but i'm feeling good with this decision.

I really can understand you are desperate to get a job but it is very important, and i repeat very important to stay rational even when you get a job offer. Companies know you want a job and take advantage of this.

So good luck
B

scroggs

30th Aug 2006, 07:49

Wingbar there's a great expression: "Owe the bank a thousand quid and you're in trouble. Owe them a million and they're in trouble!" As WWW says, what can they do to you? Bankruptcy is not the disaster it used to be, and it can help you get out of the debt hole you're now in. It's not to be taken lightly, but it may offer a way out. Read this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204624) for more information.

Secondly, it seems to me you are approaching (if not actually in) a state of clinical depression. You MUST go and see your Doctor if you suspect this is the case. A depressed person is in no state of mind to make coherent decisions about anything much, and an aeroplane is no place to be in that state. You don't want to lose your existing connection with flying, so do your best to nip this in the bud now. If you can do it, try and look at what good things there are in your life. Believe me, being an FI flying most days (even for low pay) is not such a bad thing - plenty would kill for what you have, including a fair number of current airline pilots!

You must stop winding yourself up into an ever-greater sense of desperation and start taking control of your life. There's plenty of good advice both in this and the bankruptcy threads. Take it.

Scroggs

wingbar

30th Aug 2006, 08:20

Scroggs, and WWW, you are right, and I thank you for your advice...but it is in sheer desperation that I am writing all that I do, and, I can assure you that I am not clinically depressed.
I still give 100% to my students, they haven't done anything to deserve any less, and I have had instructors from both sides of the coin, and I know which one I would like to teach me.

But, I have come to my end of being able to sustain myself with full time flying instruction, and for that I am most sad....

Would bankruptcy affect my chances of an airline job?

WB

scroggs

30th Aug 2006, 08:23

Read that thread I linked to. All of it. You'll find that all your questions are answered.

Scroggs

potkettleblack

30th Aug 2006, 08:34

That I never said - what I stress is that there is a constantly perpetuated delusion that one can select oneself, train modular and beat the integrated offering.
I have clearly offended many below with my comments, however I assure you that I am not an integrated student with a chip on the shoulder.
I am posting here to stress that you must give yourself the best possible chance to succeed, and not make it doubly hard for yourself by persuing a course which is not the preferred choice of the vast majority of airlines.

I am not quite sure why Lucifer is getting so much stick, he actually makes a very valid point. What modular training has allowed is for many unsuitable wannabees to foster pipe dreams of becoming pilots when in fact they do not fall into the norm of what airlines want and are unemployable.

If you don't believe me then get a bit of experience under your belts, develop some experience recruiting for a decent sized company then go stand outside Gatwick during the exams and watch the folks that walk in through the doors. That clears out the physical attributes like tattoos, long unkept hair and the like. Then spend some time around your average flying school and get to know (if you can) all the master chess players and computer gamers who have never nor would ever have wished to participate in any team sports in their lives. See how long they can hold a conversation and how nervous they are when you start asking them about themselves and if they look you in the eye. The sad thing is that no one has told these folks that they will never get past an airline interview. That they have no drive or get up and go and should give up before wasting more money. Unfortunately the way the system is setup they won't believe you anyway. Still don't believe me? Then after a while reading these forums you will soon see that some peoples ideas of getting a job involves trolling through Pprune and sending out CV's whilst stuck in front of their computer. Sad way to go after spending the thick end of £50-60k.

The plus side is that for the rest of us it reduces our training costs:)

Say again s l o w l y

30th Aug 2006, 08:49

Wingbar,

I feel for you mate I really do. I can remember the sense of frustration and anger, especially after sept.11th, with the job market. It isn't nice.

For your own sake, suck it in and try not to let it show outside of Pprune, knock on doors and generally make a pest of yourself. Call every contact you may have in the industry (you probably have more than you realise).

One ray of hope, though. Have you thought about CPL instruction? I know FTE had a big recruitment drive a while ago, I'm sure they are still looking. They pay well.

Also, look for other Instructing jobs, most pay an awful lot more than £12/hr and experienced FI's are getting thin on the ground.

You won't feel better unless you take a positive step. Take this current situation as the lowest point and try to go up from here, but the lesson you learn when it's crap like this will stand you in good stead. Sounds daft, but it's true. When you are sitting in a shiny jet, remember all of those in your previous position and try to give them the leg up you needed.

One last thing, airline recruitment has stuff all to do with competency, so don't see this as an indictment on your own skills.

Don't be scared of bankrupcy, it isn't the end of the world and compared to most of the world's population, you are in a fantastic situation, you aren't at risk of disease, starvation, war or natural disaster. So try and keep a little bit of perspective.

Good luck.

Potkettleblack, one of the best pilots I know doesn't fit your limited view of what a pilot should look like. He's covered in tattoo's and sounds like a right geezer, but he's smart and has worked hard and now fly's for bmi.
We aren't all Ace Rimmer lookalikes and I like that fact. Having different people in the industry is a good thing, whereas having narrow minded folk like yourself is something the rest of us have to put up with.

Wee Weasley Welshman

30th Aug 2006, 08:58

There are just as many numpties in Oxford, Jerez or Cranfield my friend. I've seen self sponsored Integrated student pour £70k down the drain. Mostly immature benefactors of deluded parents.

It was emphatically NOT my job as a flying instructor at Jerez to discourage this wastefulness as it provided the source of my monthly pay cheque and that of the managements. Some numpty with little aptitude no drive and a trend to laziness was the ideal student as they would invariably end up needing retraining for flight tests and extra ££ hours ££.

Large FTO's market their pre-selection testing as a means to ensure they produce quality graduates. What they don't mention is that the £30 test often emboldens all students to feel that they do have the aptitude and that they should not give up even if they start failing, struggling, not enjoying it and their instructor gives them some friendly advice to pack it in and stop digging with a gold shovel. Telling all your customers that they have passed a pre-selection test can be used to give them the confidence to keep on spending their parents money for longer.

Flying training is a shark infested pool of self interest and exploitation as everyone waits drooling for the next poor soul to stumble through the door with their life savings clutched nervously before them.

Hope that's cheered you up ;)

Wingbar - have you thought about moving up from PPL training to CPL training? The large FTO's these days will take people with 1000hrs without batting an eyelid. Its a LOT more rewarding than PPL work and much better paid.

Keep your chin up,

WWW

Miles High

30th Aug 2006, 11:14

Guys let me tell you something. I last logged on to PPRuNe 2 years ago and exactly the same points were beng made, as they were 4 years before that.
I qualified (FrATPL) in 2000. I'm a good guy (well we all think that - my current captain and FO mates will back me up!!!).
But I'm a self financed normal bloke with a wife, kids and a mortgage. I've never even got an interview (CV and letters were fine presentation wise, honest). I've given up now as my only way of getting a job now is via a ryanair like scheme and how can a guy like me both pay for a TR and then work for free for 6 months. Not going to happen however much I'm motivated to do it.
For any newbies reading this by all means try to become a professional pilot, but be under no illussions, if you do not have rich parents and a dad/uncle (or mum!?) who is a senior management pilot - or preferably both, you face a very difficult/impossible task.
And another thing - NEVER believe the dross training schools tell you about pilot shortages in the future - they've always said that and they've always been wrong, including pre 2001, which contrary to what some people think did not make the job market dire - it already was.
Sorry but there it is.
Keep smiling!
:ugh: :)

dartagnan

31st Aug 2006, 08:09

I have been in this market for 10-12 years(FAA fi, UK ATP,...), and it is really hard!.
I got jobs but most of the time I am unemployed.Getting a job is hard, when your company goes bankrupt and you have to find a new job, it is the hell!
Companies ask me to pay for my own t/rating, "go find the money, buy your t/r, then we will maybe discuss, !!!"
these companies are crimininal!
I see some improvement in this market and with my 1500h as a FI, now airlines seem to be interested.

down-n-locked

31st Aug 2006, 13:10

Newish to forums but not aviation 20 years.

I really sympathise with you all been there got t-shirt and hat. I have been too young:= too old:= too inexperienced:= too experienced (yes true ), just get 1500 hrs:= the multi rating will do it := 500hrs twin := maybe just some turbine time:= you need the space shuttle type rating to start in the operations department then after 12 months we will make you a 9th officer on the warrior "WHAT THE :mad: "

Obtained FI 14 years ago WHAT FOR?????:* sorry not after sympathy just the truth.

I agrree that TRs should not be paid for but the airlines have us right where they want us and unfortunatly and very sadly so, it appears to have become the norm. I still don,t understand how you are expected to pay for a type rating after you complete your training?

I ended up south of the med for several years, with a few bucks and a return ticket for insurance :eek: and I am still struggling but of course over time things have eased. Aviation is very rewarding and if you want it you must keep on going and get it with a little luck all will end well.

good luck all

DnL

wingbar

31st Aug 2006, 13:50

Well, again the fun continues, rained off today...another day without income..... and the bank just called AGAIN!- Really what do they want my blood?

Now in desperation looking to go back to the crap IT work I hate so much.....again in tears...just spoke to an ops director who virtually told me to F' off..... I'm now going through the hell of IT recruiters and forms and them wondering why I left etc etc .

I'm struggling to secure anything part time now as well.....looks like full time is the only way to get back into that again........when will I get to return to aviation I really wonder with all of this........:{ :{

Superpilot

31st Aug 2006, 14:34

For God's sake, get back into full time IT work right away. It's not half as boring and **** as you make it out to be. It pays, and it can pay bloody good. 5 years in this sector has given me enough to buy my own house and put a decent amount towards my commercial training. Like I said, I've been doing it for 5 years, and aim to get right back into it after completion of Modular. No doubt about it, I'll wait 5 years (until I'm 30) for my first commercial job if it takes that long. Personally, I would much rather prefer to be in a well paid and secure job than be 'in the aviation loop' so to speak, earning a pittence not knowing how I'm going to eat tomorrow. A poorly paid instructors job is not going to help YOUR situation. Toughen up and take control. As to why you aint being recognised with 600TT. Can I ask:

How old are you?
Your academic qualifications? A'Levels? Degree?

wingbar

31st Aug 2006, 15:00

When you have completed your training, sold your soul, have the banks trying to reposses things you own, and gone through the whole ranks of hacking it as an overworked underpaid FI, passing everything, and occassionally failing, then I'll answer your rather unhelpful response....

Until then enjoy David Brent and the delightful life at the office...no doubt i'll be there soon enough.

ps I'm the right side of 25 and my quals are okay; A-levels,(NO DEGREE, COULDN't AFFORD ONE AFTER £60K SPENT ON THIS LOT!) MCSE, 3rd line tech supp for 3 major companys under my belt, I came right up from the 1st line-worked my way up for a few years, again another career (IT) that takes years to get any good at.....:(

Superpilot

31st Aug 2006, 15:43

Nothing either of us can do if you don't like it. But you will be familiar with:

-Sometimes it's what we hate that's good for us
-Patience is a virtue

I'm even thinking of going back to that hateful industry.....IT ...full of gits that is, boring geeks, and weirdo's...I worked hard so I could go into flying to get away from that

I'd be careful. Quite a lot of wannabe's work in the IT sector. In fact I would lay the claim that the most common previous work sector for a pilot is the very generic 'IT'. So no doubt you'll meet a lot of boring geeks and weirdo's on the flight deck at some point.

Mr Magoo

31st Aug 2006, 15:49

To be honest mate I think you'd be better off back in IT.

Someone who seems to spend all his energy on whinging and railing against the world for not giving him the lifestyle he thinks he deserves ain't the kind of guy I'd want to be flying with.

What are you going to do when it all goes pear shaped one dark dirty night? burst into tears and say it's not fair that poor litte wingbar is being picked on by the flying gods AGAIN?

I did my CPL/IR in mid 2001 and it's taken me five years to get my first turboprop job. In that time I struggled doing any jobs to pay the bills and spent many many days as a freelance FI not earning a bean when the weather wasn't flyable. I stuck with it, DIDN'T BLUB and WHINGE, and am here flying EFIS TPs around europe at the age of 44.

So stop being "poor little wingbar" shut the whineing and pull yerself together man.

Magoo

wingbar

31st Aug 2006, 15:55

Mr Magoo, shame on you, you're already there aren't you? - You've got your job...

So instead of coming on here and being insulting towards me, why don't you offer some constructive advice?

And another thing, do you honestly thing I enjoy coming on public forums to air out my situation? I'd like to just go away somewhere and never come back again...

You can all pick on me as much as you wish, I can take it anyway..... I just hope that no one ends up in the situation I'm in now....

Mr Magoo

31st Aug 2006, 16:06

Well, there you have it wingbar old boy, accusing me of insulting you when I was mearly stating my view of your suitability after reading your postings on this thread.

I'm quite convinced that if I'd gone around with the attitude you seem to broadcast to all and sundry I would never have got the job I now have.

Anyone else come to the same conclusions over Mr wingbar?

sagaris

31st Aug 2006, 16:30

Absolutely, well said Magoo.

Wingbar - you sound like nothing but a pathetic pr1ck. Your endless 'i'd rather not take your advice right now' posts are just textbook responses by pathetic people like you. You come on for help, and others are giving their 2 cents worth, however unless you're told what you want to hear, you try to shoot down any replies you recieve.

Grow up. You're not the only one in such a predicament, but you're the only one who insists on boring everyone with your problems.

If you were made of the right material, you would have interviews lined up already, maybe even be in the RHS, like several of my colleagues who haven't 'had it easy'... But you're not. This much is obvious. Why would anyone wish to employ you with your attitude?

Go back to IT, hopefully you'll muster an interview there, and mix it up with like minded individuals -the boring geeky weirdo nerds, as you put it.

I await another amusing response for not telling you what you wish to hear :{ :{ :{

wingbar

31st Aug 2006, 16:35

Again,someone else who already has a job, throwing insults towards me....

I really don't know what to do..

eghi r20

31st Aug 2006, 16:38

Don’t shoot the messenger………but I know wingbar, He is a very intelligent happy go lucky kind of guy. He is just getting tired of treading water. How many near misses can a guy have ‘excuse the pun’ He and others have done all that is expected of them and sometimes more. The sad fact is that sometimes it is still is not enough. Years ago the FI route was a well trodden path to the airlines. Not so true today. They tend to want young 200hr integrated peeps over someone who had taken more time to refine there trade.
Give him a break…………….I am sure everyone has had days when they could throw it all in.

It’s a cruel world I know……pilot shortage my Ass………………
:ugh:

wingbar

31st Aug 2006, 16:39

And another thing Sagariiss, being made of the 'right stuff' is nothing to do with getting a job, MONEY is! Ryanair etc???

wingbar

31st Aug 2006, 16:41

Hi there Eghi 20!

At least I have some friends around! lol!

Speak to you later!

WB :ok:

eghi r20

31st Aug 2006, 16:42

:) See...he can smile................

sagaris

31st Aug 2006, 17:33

No wingbar, the right stuff definately is the key. Not money. Ryanair etc are the extremes, many airlines will in fact pay for your TR. Indeed many wont, however should you get a conditional job offer which entails you paying your own, you will be able to get the funding from a bank. I'm aware this entails more debt, but having gone the cheap and cheerful modular route, this shouldnt be a problem. And lo and behold, you'll be sat at the pointy end of a jet.

You speak as if aviation is the ultimately cut throat industry within which to get your job. Let me assure you, it isn't. I have countless friends who are in far worse positions in the city, struggling and struggling in far more stressful situations to get that big break into investment banking or whatever, the same applies again in other walks of life. Stop bleating and get on with turning the situation around.

I still maintain your attitude isnt one that best befits those lucky enough to fly jets.

wingbar

31st Aug 2006, 17:47

Sagariousiiisisisisis whatever...

Your response is clearly one sided, and narrow minded, the modular route is neither cheap nor cheerful...and as for the Banks lending me more money....ha!
I've more chance of my bum turning blue....

the aviator1977

31st Aug 2006, 17:50

Wingbar,

I am a low houred fatpl holder gained in May 04. I can't afford to live off an instructor's wage and build up hours due to high debts so i'm stuck with low hours until I get a flying job that pays my debts and living etc. I'm not asking for much just enough to live a pay back debts and then after experience command a better salary. Money isn't important to me but flying IS and just enjoying life to the full. I wish I could just be an instructor for now but instead I work in a different industry (which I have done for 7 years in which I completed my fatpl training at the same time) which does pay enough and I make the best of it too!. I have had a couple of interviews this year and last year but my lack of currency let me down in the sim.

It is tough I know but you must try and enjoy your life as it is for now. If in 2or 3 years time you still haven't made it do you want to look back with regrets or with good memories. Try and do other things which you can enjoy now i.e affordable hobbies, socialising with friends, play team sports, whatever floats your boat!!! Don't get me wrong flying is number one to me but it isn't the only thing in the world. Try and also get some perspective- To be an Airline Pilot, I believe is a very priveliged job and there for it should be tough to get into. But it will make it all the worth while WHEN (not if) you make it. Some people are lucky and walk straight into a job but they may not appreciate it as someone who has to try very hard. YOU WILL GET THERE I PROMISE SO KEEP THE FAITH BUT TRY TO ENJOY YOUR LIFE IN THE MEANTIME.

Hope this helps

All the best to everyone out there (like myself still) trying to get there first job.

Rgds

The Aviator1977

Floppy Link

31st Aug 2006, 17:53

Wingbar old chap,
which question do you think is better?

"Why is this not happening for me?"

or

"How can I make this happen?"

If you're programming your mind negatively then why be surprised at the negative results?

Something to ponder...

Jinkster

31st Aug 2006, 18:00

Same boat as Wingbar - 23yrs old, frozen ATPL and 400 plus hours!!

No work today - weather :\

duir

31st Aug 2006, 18:27

I am the wrong side of 30, modular and nipple deep in debt(50k). Further to this the company that I was an FI for did a runner with 2 months of my wages, all well documented on the private forum.

....but there are still options open to you.

My bank at least were very helpful and offered me interest only for a while until things improved. This was offered as I was honist with them about my situation and didn't wait for them to come to me. Talk to them.

Both the job I was recently offered and the interview I have next week are for small companies that still use sensible sized bonds over a short period and pay a decent wage to start with. This is what attracted me to them and both interviews were offered after I got off my bum and went to see them. Also getting to know people within is a big plus. I suggest targetting just a few companies that you admire and aspire to work for rather than mass mailing.

Finally don't forget that an awful lot of people in these companies you want to work for were once in our position as a struggling pennyless FI so you may just get lucky.

bluepeely

31st Aug 2006, 18:35

Wingbar i feel for ya man, everyone who seems to tell ya to cheer up or shut up all seem to have jobs so its easy for them.

Keep at it mate and i hope the w:mad:rs at the bank dont take your telly, i'm interested how ya get on so keep us posted and ignore the ones sticking the knife in further.

May i suggest strong cider to cheer you up??? 2quid for 3 litres helps me out at the dark times:ok:

Goodluck BP

dartagnan

31st Aug 2006, 21:13

ask your bank to find you a job in aviation, so you can pay back what you own them!!

or say to your bank, they are part of the risk, no job=no money!!!

I know this job hunting, and no job coming is a pain in the neck!
Continue to apply and log hours, more you send CV, more chance you have to get a better job.this industry will need you soon!:ok:

VFE

31st Aug 2006, 21:25

Had a conversation with Jinkster a couple of hours ago where we both had a small whinge about our situations - it's what people in our position do from time to time, many a time I have sat in the clubhouse on rainy days listening to guys in the same boat as myself bemoan their situations and I'd be amazed, nay gobsmacked if Mr.Magoo and others didn't do the same when they were FI's.

Having said that, I recall Mr.Magoo battling the CAA regs, rallying support over on the medical forum, bringing the 'Bates Method' to everyones attention and informing those outside the eyesight regs how they were soon to be lowered, so I know the guy has a lot of fight in him and I'm glad to hear he's finally made it to a TP operator. Respeck!

We all have that same fight (need to have in order to get where we are now!) but it doesn't hurt to endulge a little whinge now and again... let off some steam. Despite popular opinion we're not all superhuman and when we see our friends getting married, settling down with kids in nice houses and with secure jobs it's hard not to feel a little dejected, especially when the bills continue to mount up with no let-up in sight.

But just hang in there Wingbar, and if needs-be go back to IT and keep the instruction up P/T at weekends so you can stay current and keep a tickover of hours coming in. You have come a long way to have 600 hours under your belt so not far to go now - keep networking and keep the faith.

VFE.

Lucifer

31st Aug 2006, 22:38

Why is it a common theme that any poster who posts any common sense or criticism - be it constructive or not - is railed as an idiot, while "it will be OK" postings that are quite clearly not advancing wingbar's situation are welcomed?

Posters have to be highly vindicative to write on here out of spite - few do - what you are receiving in criticism and advice is from people who know what is required and what you should do to achieve it.

WWW - while you are right that there are numpties who fly at Jerez, you fail to recognise how this works even for numpties. People are forced into a training environment that puts them in the frame of mind to succeed - they are forced to work on a course that runs full time and are trained constantly while not being left to hour build and develop habits. You fall into the trap of thinking that somehow a recruiter can measure "desire" and "love" for the job. All they are looking for is a commodity, and I don't think your post helps wannabes to realise that they are ultimately required to be employees who fit the mould.

Ex-Mil Mates Clearly we are considering ab-initio, not your situation.

Wingbar

Don't even respond to me. Don't hit reply. Close your web browser and get off PPRuNe now. I actually want to get angry with me. Hate my opinions. Whatever - just do something to prove me and others here that we are wrong. Write a business plan for the bank. Speak to the bank every day before they call you. Restructure your loans with them.

Stop crying about it. Pull yourself together. Stop wasting time moaning on PPRuNe. Moonlight part-time in IT on mid-week days. Earn money in BK on non-flying days. Babysit, get a second job at night.

Whatever you do - don't come here looking for sympathy and crying about your misfortune. While you might curse me forever for being an unloving git, I post here solely to offer my advice.

You need direction and motivation.

If you even consider writing again on this thread, you don't have what it takes, as you are wasting your time, and failing to achieve.:ugh:

Stop. Close browser. Return to writing CV. Set up meeting with bank. Repeat.

Wee Weasley Welshman

31st Aug 2006, 23:49

Lucifer

People are forced into a training environment that puts them in the frame of mind to succeed

This training environment being an impersonal sausage factory that puts them in the frame of mind that they somehow are advantages by their 70k outlay and the early opportunity to where airline style outfits replete with gold bars.

- they are forced to work on a course that runs full time and are trained constantly while not being left to hour build and develop habits.

Could be read that they are unable to organise and achieve their own study goals and need constant monitoring and encouragement to succeed in training. Nobody hours builds any more - modular and integrated hours are very close. The days of bowling around the skies building up to 700hrs to magically upgrade a BCPL are long gone.

You fall into the trap of thinking that somehow a recruiter can measure "desire" and "love" for the job. All they are looking for is a commodity, and I don't think your post helps wannabes to realise that they are ultimately required to be employees who fit the mould.

I think a recruiter looks at license, how they come across at interview and how they perform in the sim ride. If I blindfolded any recruiter to the fact that 20 candidates came from an Integrated and 20 came from Modular then I swear the recruiter couldn't tell the difference from their licenses, their interview performance or their simride. And what is this mould that they must fit? I look around my crew room and you'd struggle to find a broader mix of personalities and flying historys. There is no mould.

Cheers

WWW

Lightheart

1st Sep 2006, 01:19

To Wingbar and anyone else who feels they're are their wits end.

There is nothing to be gained from whining, especially on this forum. Don't know if you have studied quantum phsyics. Our thoughts effect the electro-magnetic field around us. Like attracts like. If you are moaning and being negative about life what do you think you will attract into your life? The situations and circumstances to confirm what you are "putting out" into the universe.

Try changing your attitude, see yourself in a new situation, the one you WANT to be in. See your problem resolved (but not how it's going to get there, but be open to any path that leads to the resolution). Close your eyes when you are in bed and see it, feel it. Maintain this during your waking hours. If you do it correctly you will see a change eventually. The power is within us all. Just need to know how to tap into it.

This is not a philosophy, as it has worked for me.

The buck starts and stops with YOU. There is ALWAYS a solution.

Good luck.

beamer

1st Sep 2006, 04:22

Im afraid that in the real world 600hrs (Wingbar) does not immediately entitle you to an airline position - particuarly if the majority of that time has been spent in small light aircraft. At the risk of being ranted over, the acquisition of an FI ticket means precious little in the modern commercial world. Yes, I do realise that the likes of CTC are supplying 'cadets' to airlines - why, because they are cheap and a known quantity, even though in my opinion they should be leased out to small turboprop operators for a couple of years to learn their trade before being allowed anywhere near large jet aircraft.

It will come - just lower your expectations a little for the first couple of years.

excrab

1st Sep 2006, 08:44

Wingbar

Beamer is right. Unfortunately 600hrs isn't going to get anyone very excited in the airline recruitment world.

Whilst eghi r20 is correct that years ago the FI route was a well trodden path to the airlines it should be rememembered that years ago you had to have 700 hrs before you could take the commercial flight test (unless you went to Oxford or Perth for an approved course) and by the time most self improver QFIs had passed the cpl writtens/flight test/IR they were looking for commercial jobs with about 1500 hrs, and even then most didn't get straight into even a tp airliner but flew air taxis etc for a while.

Whilst at the moment there are some who are able to get airline jobs with low hours many cannot. However much you hate IT it pays well, the best advice, however much you don't want to hear it, is to go back to earning decent money full time and find a decent flying club where you can instruct at weekends to keep current whilst you keep job hunting.

Whatever you do, good luck.

dartagnan

1st Sep 2006, 11:15

I have met some FAA flight instructors in the USA, over 2000h, licensed since 1990, and still flight instructor.(and good flight instructor).

this is a worldwide problem, and it is not only in aviation but in many sectors.there are 2 solutions for you: you give up and you take a stupid paid job which pay your rent and bills(with no real futur in the long term), or you do what you have to do to make it works(to do the job YOU want)...

I know many guys who would kill you to take your FI job.

Jinkster

1st Sep 2006, 20:50

In that case - BRING BACK THE OLD DAYS when real flying worked and it wasnt all money...........

wingbar

1st Sep 2006, 22:40

well I'm just getting very very drunk indeed! lol!

My parents won't speak to me, the bank are after me...and well after tomorrow I will have no car to drive to the airport....
WB

wingbar

1st Sep 2006, 22:59

Curiously though I have slowly started to look on the brighter side...I have some wonderful friends in aviation and out...and some lovely people on here as well...thank you for all being kind and helpful....I'll try my best I promise...and I'll do whatever it takes to get that job..because one day soon I'm sure I'll get to be that 'airline pilot'....I realise it may take years even from now....but I'm sure somehow I may be able to get there.

I think the IT will help me, and , I can at least sort my life out, I'll instruct at the weekends, and I have a superb outfit to work for to enable that to happen, so for that I ammost grateful.

I am however, very sad about only being able to instruct part time...and I will be devastated on the first day of work in the 9-5 world I worked so hard to escape from....I hope I can hack it all......thanks for all the support...I'll keep you all upto date....

Really, without you guys I don't know what I would have done through all of this terrible terrible time....so thank you for all of your advice and support...

WB

nomercy

2nd Sep 2006, 09:00

Wingbar - You may have to do what i had to do. I instructed for several years and it slowly drained my finances until i was getting into trouble. I had to give up full time instructing and return to my previous career which i left nine years ago - luckily i managed to double my income overnight and carry on instructing part time which kept me current. Obviously going back into an office after several years of flying was very painful but i had no choice.
I have just been offered a TP job and i will be taking another pay cut but at least the salary is respectable and regular. The important thing is not to give up and try to get some good contacts in the industry which i think is by far the best way of getting in.
Good luck

Bobs-Your-Uncle

2nd Sep 2006, 09:22

wingbar

have you researched instructing in north america?

Florida etc has much better weather and the instructors I met were flying all the hours god sent. Apart from the odd hurricance when most people take the weekend off.

Cost of living much less than rip off Britain too.

just a thought .......

dartagnan

2nd Sep 2006, 10:09

teaching in the USA, it is not easy anymore since the TSA checks schools documents!

winbar, you say your family don't speak to you anymore, what the hell they think?, because you are a pilot, you would fly a MD11 and buy them a house with a swiming pool?

I have to explain to my parents(now retired), it is not because you have an university degree and/or a flying license that suddenly airlines will run after you...nobody will run after us,...

1975 is behind us! times have changed!

Stratman

2nd Sep 2006, 11:52

Wingbar, been reading your posts and I understand your feelings.Aviation is a dubious industry at the best of times, I think you have made a sensible choice in working in your former industry during the week and teaching flying at weekends, that is a good balance. Be under no illusion about flying commercially it will in no way resemble any glamourous notions that are spread around, it is hard, stressful unhealthy and depending on your company quite insecure , just like many other careers today. What you will not find under this particular forums heading that many pilots are totally sick of it as a full time job and they move into positions where they can fly less and have more of a life outside of aviation. Naturally you want to get a job flying a larger machine, we all did, and when you have spent a large sum of money on training you want to see some justification.Once you have some regular money coming in during the week working far more civilised hours than you will find in this game, no doubt you will feel better and get more of a perspective on things, keep the instrucing up as well, truthfully its a lot more challenging than operating a modern airliner, you never know you might wind up doing some tailwheel training on a moth or a stearman, now we are talking flying not just operating in an airline job.
Keep your chin up, you will find what you`re looking for soon enough.

Regards Stratman.

tudeski2004

2nd Sep 2006, 13:18

Wing,

I will post this knowing that someone somewhere will shoot me down in flames. I am still at the very beginning of my training and studying for my ATPL's. I know the cost involved in training and I know how hard it is to get a job at the end of it. But I want to fly so much it is worth the risk. I have a mortgage and other bills to pay. So my plan. Simple I keep my job as police officer and plod on ( excuse the pun ) with earning money to pay for my training. It will take me a lot longer than the intergrated route, a hell of a lot longer but it's worth it. Get your job back in the IT industry and instruct P/T. You will have a good wage coming in and you will keep the bank happy. Fly ing P/T will also keep the hours coming in, and cost you nothing.
I dont know anything about aviation recruitment as I am not at that stage, and so can't say what they are looking for in people, but I have never met you ,and the opinion I form of you is that of a very negative person and that WILL be apparent when people meet you and will hinder you when looking for jobs. First opinions always count mate, so cheer up, get your old job back in IT and get applying for those flying jobs, even if it is only air taxi work. It's still a flying job and thats what we all want.

wingbar

2nd Sep 2006, 15:11

Tudeski2004,

I wish you all the very best in your training, your idea sounds very sensible to me.
But for now sadly I must go back to the office I tried so hard to escape from ,I have yet again spent another day in tears, and have not left my room......

Good luck with your endeavors.

wingbar

2nd Sep 2006, 15:13

I'm filling in all of my old IT stuff again...it's so so sad......and I think I may not be up to speed enough to go back to a similar grade I had before..I will have to take a lower level job just to get back in........

mcgoo

2nd Sep 2006, 15:37

FFS get a grip, theres plenty of people in a worse situation than you that manage to get by without humiliating themselves on a public forum.

eghi r20

2nd Sep 2006, 15:50

:\
They say it is better to have tried and not succeed
Instead of having never tried.

Chin up peeps we are still the fortunate few who have chased our dreams. Many simply don’t have the means to attempt it.

No Regrets………whatever the outcome. I have enjoyed the adventure.

Memories last a life time, what if’s and regret can eat you up inside!!

PS – any airlines out there want to give me a job !! ;)

tudeski2004

2nd Sep 2006, 16:59

Wing,

Good to hear you are listening to people now. Couple of things though. Coming on here and stating you spend the day crying etc etc is not good. You say you instruct, but are you REALLY in a fit enough state to instruct? I would suggest not. I don't want to sound rude in any way, but you should really go and see a doctor as it sounds like you are suffering from stress. Get that out of the way and things will look a lot better for you and the feelings of negativity will go.
Coming on here and telling everyone how crap life is is not helping. Trust me mate, I meet people a lot worse off than you everyday and they still amaze me with how upbeat they can be.

dartagnan

2nd Sep 2006, 17:12

I met a guy, over 40, 3 kids,one is a baby...
Borrowed a fortune for his ATPL. after 10 years, not hired, unemployed, then he went back to his previous job (radar controller).
Now he is happy, he paid back the bank, and he has a job(not a fly job).

What is the point to go through all this process?, when you are not flexible, having house, 3 kids, wife,...

eghi r20

2nd Sep 2006, 18:09

ok........ i was single when i started this whole thing 2001

now i am married with 2 kids, Whats a guy to do, Beachy Head ??

you cant let your own life pass you by while you hold out on something that may never happen.

Get yourself an understanding little wifeee

and your good to GO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Flintstone

3rd Sep 2006, 12:40

Wingbar, take a look back over your posts here and ask yourself what you would think if someone else had written them. Venting ones spleen in public is not always a good thing although in this case you at least seem to have listened to the very good advice given to you.

You are going back into IT to be able to pay your loans. I'm sorry, what is the problem? You entered into a contract when you borrowed the money. The bank kept to their side by giving you the cash. You're an adult, take responsibility for yourself and none of this easy way out bankruptcy. I suspect the reason HSBC are hassling you is because they know you can get back to work. I don't blame them.

I'll pre-empt your question by saying yes, I'm one who got his job. I got there though by moving back and forth around the world, working as an instructor for **** pay and having to cycle to and from work.

Working as a lorry driver, delivering furniture, loading goods in supermarket warehouses and going back to my old (successful) career when I needed to put food on the table for my family all played a part. I'm nothing special. In fact I'm just like a large percentage of people in the industry who borrowed a shedload of money to fulfil their ambition then set about repaying it while clawing my way up the ladder.

Get an IT job, take care of your responsibilities and you might find that your self respect will improve. I'd wager an offshoot of that (and the removal of the pressure from your creditors) will improve your disposition and perhaps your chances of a flying job.

Good luck.

Oh, being able to afford to go out and relax once in a while will probably help too.

Whirlybird

3rd Sep 2006, 14:03

wingbar,

Having talked to you an hour ago at EGSY, I had a look at this thread, as I'd said I would. I've just skimmed through all of it, so I apologise if I don't remember every single comment, or repeat what has been said already.

Firstly, for those who don't know me, I'm a longterm prooner, and a helicopter instructor at Sheffield City Airport, and I know wingbar. He is not this wimpish, whinging cry baby that some of you seem to believe; he's a perfectly normal, intelligent personable young guy, who really cares about his students. People who don't care about their students don't have long conversations about the best way to teach them, do they? They don't teach the job that pays them peanuts with enthusiasm, do they? I'm here, and I know about people, and I know wingbar, so trust me on this. The fact that he talks about waking up in tears is an example of honesty, that's all. Who hasn't woken up worrying about money, or in despair about life, or similar, at some time? Things can look bad in the wee small hours when you've no-one to talk to; it doesn't mean you don't cope well and positively with life when you're properly awake and in a more rational state. It's being human, that's all. Unfortunately, the British tradition of the stiff upper lip is alive and well, and many people don't like a display or admission of emotion.

However, wingbar, you do have to make a decision, and get your life together. If you're as miserable as you sound, no job is worth that, not even a flying job. As I see it, there are a few things you can do.

1) Go back to IT, at least temporarily. Get some money, pay back some of your loan, so you can keep the bank manager happy and stop worrying so much. Instruct at weekends to keep your hand in, and network and talk to all and sundry so as not to lose any opportunity that comes up. You're young; you have time on your side. This is what I'd do, personally.

2) Keep on instructing, and realise that this crap weather is temporary. It's been awful this last couple of weeks. We're all feeling it. My friends say they've never seen me so fed up and paranoid about the lack of work. It WILL improve. You could have a chat with the bank manager, and carry on. I don't know the f/w market, but I don't see why you shouldn't get another job eventually...though who knows how long that is.

3) Pack the whole thing in. You can, you know. It's allowed. I'm probably the only person on here who'd dare say it, but it IS an option. You gave it your best shot, and maybe it's not worth it. In many ways, this industry stinks. We all know that, but we put up with it because we love flying. But maybe it's not worth it.

Now, you've tried Option 2, and you're deadly miserable. I've got a feeling Option 3 just won't work, from what I know of you. So get out there, do Option 1, and remember it's only temporary and with a longterm aim, not a life sentence.

And remember you have friends on here, as well as idiots who like to put you down when their knowledge of either you or the aviation industry is zilch!

And also remember that I meant what I said earlier about us all sticking together. :ok:

RYR-738-JOCKEY

3rd Sep 2006, 15:35

Wingbar:
When I started almost ten years ago, I saw only two options after getting my licences. Either being employed by a large operator, or having to be an instructor for a year or two and then get a decent job (not to sound cocky..). What I didn't fully realize at the time was that I would need two salaries to pay my debts, if I had to go for option #2.. So WB your story is not very original, but rather typical. I started working nightshifts and instructed as much as I could. After 5 years, I came to the conclusion that it didn't matter if I had 500 or 5000 hours on cessnas. What I needed was an interview. The trick is to get one, obviously. So if you were offered a guaranteed job on 737's earning 3500 quid per month (as FO), would you be able to convince your family/friends or anyone-else you know, to lend you money for a TR (approx 17000 quid)?
I took that chance and it paid off BIG time...I actually got a letter a couple of days ago where I was asked if I knew anybody who could participate on an interview in Brussels Sept 8th and 9th. They're virtually screaming for people. Send me a PM, and I'll forward the mail. If you really think this is really not an option...too expensive...then think again, and again..till you sort out how this can be fixed, because I was REALLY broke when I took the chance. Hope this got you busy, keep us updated. :ok:

dartagnan

3rd Sep 2006, 19:29

2 months ago, I went to a meeting for an airline...gosh!! I realised I was in a better position than most of them.
most guys had 200h-300h, no money left.
wingbar you have more licenses than most of them. You know to deal with students, you know to work in a team, and you have already 600hours.you have some kind of experience, right?

it's just a question of time...when I will be a captain, i will give you a call...I will hire only flight instructors;) .

wingbar

3rd Sep 2006, 20:25

Hey everybody,

Thank you for all of your help and support ; Whirly, thank you for your encouragement and your support and your kind words of encouragement...I'll definately leave extra yoghurts in the staff room fridge for you! lol!

I'm not leaving entirely, I'm just going to do something to pay the bills, but I'll do my damndest to return to full time flying ASAP.

Also I just had a lovely chat with a lovely friend of mine, she cheered me up no end, and I am blessed to have nice people in the industry around me.

I'll keep positive and I'll try my level best to get to that job I really really want. I'm just going to have to sit and do some thorough planning, and work out a real plan to get to that post I have always dreamed of.

Thank you everybody for all of your suggestions and help thus far, I have really appreciated the positive comments and ideas from everybody, you have really helped me no end.

A slightly cheered up Wingbar..:ok:

low n' slow

4th Sep 2006, 07:03

That's the spirit mate!
/LnS

Whirlybird

4th Sep 2006, 08:03

I'll keep positive and I'll try my level best to get to that job I really really want. I'm just going to have to sit and do some thorough planning, and work out a real plan to get to that post I have always dreamed of.

An excellent plan. :ok: Just keep remembering you said that, escpecially when the going gets tough. :(

Wee Weasley Welshman

4th Sep 2006, 10:30

Pilot first, IT consultant second.

You are on the slippery down escalator of professional flying. Get back flying soon.

WWW

Tuned In

5th Sep 2006, 12:47

600 hours - you are not far off the requirements for single-crew IFR on an AOC. Try as hard as you can to get some PIC under IFR in a twin (remember you can log IFR even outside CAS in great weather).

You would need 700 hours including 400 PIC, including 40 PIC/MEP/IFR for most operators, and preferably 100 hours PIC/IFR. Some operators can go down to 400 houts TT, 300 PIC but the 40 PIC/MEP/IFR is essential - and you probably only have your IRT and any renewals logged as such.

There is work around for single-crew, most not needing type rating!

Good luck - I was in your position a year ago, and just as misrerable. Good luck!

potkettleblack

5th Sep 2006, 16:48

Tuned in - I would save your breath mate as he ain't listening to any advice here. Myself and a lot of others have all told him to up sticks and get an FI job at a busier airfield building his multi hours and make the contacts to do just as you suggested. Instead he reckons leaving the industry to go back to IT will keep him on the pulse of what is going on. No doubt he can surf all day filling in online applications for the big boys and those jobs will fall into his lap.

Me thinks he is the older brother of A340rider. The latter must just about be finishing at school soon:)

PS: wingbar, to clear your debts enter into a voluntary arrangement. If you really have nothing then the bank will be forced to take whatever you are willing to pay them per week.

wingbar

5th Sep 2006, 17:14

PotKettleblack,

Whislt I appreciate your comments on my situation I feel you have been unfair in other respects;

It's not that easy, to just upsticks and go somewhere else, or 'just' do anything, you can't do naff all in life without money;

For example 02 have now cut off the phone due to having no money to pay them this month...so no way of receiving my job calls for IT or aviation or otherwise...
And how on earth could I afford to live in digs at another airfield??
Or should I go on the streets and beg for accomodation on non flying days?

Yes...very unfortunately IT is now the only way forward, IT is the only thing I have that still gives me a chance at staying in flying, in some capacity even if just at weekends..
And where might I ask, are, these wonderful opportunities of multi engine flying ...paid well enough to service 2 huge loans and a car and the rest +++ because I'm buggered if I know???

As for not taking advice from people on here, I have balenced up the advice and the sensible folk all say go back to the day job, Instruct when you can afford to....which is exactly what I intend to do...the cost of my health isn't worth it..

WB

CAP509castaway

5th Sep 2006, 17:19

Wing bar,
I have not read all of your posts, but is ti not possible for you to work IT Mon to Fri then instruct at the weekends. Alternatively I believe that Oxford and Jerez have been recruiting, who pay very ggod wages for instuctors.

potkettleblack

5th Sep 2006, 17:20

Okay so ask mum and dad for a tank of petrol to go and visit some of the bigger fields and then take it from there. I am sure they can sub you for a months shared accomodation somewhere if you land a job? Also go prepay on the mobile, I was paying a fortune to Orange for inclusive minutes, texts and mb and after 8 years told them to sod off. Now my bills are hardly anything per month. Most of the time there is a landline to pick up anyway for outgoing calls and incoming are free after all. Where there is a will there is a way if you really want it. Failing that grab some cash from your folks, don a back pack, buy a 1 way ticket to Africa and go door knocking. I would be surprised if you don't come back in a few years time with a thousand multi hours and maybe even a bit of turbine. Those jobs don't get advertised they all want to put the mark 1 eyeball on you in person.

wingbar

5th Sep 2006, 17:40

My mum and dad, aren't very well off and I cannot borrow anything from them anymore....so the only way for me to have money is to work, and I wouldn't have it any other way, far too many people scrounge money from their parents, when they are more than capable of working to pay for things...

WB

bluepeely

5th Sep 2006, 19:34

Wingbar mate hang on in there and it will come, like i've said before just try to ignore some of the p:mad: ks on here who seem to enjoy sticking the knife in further. I know what its like to be on your arse in debt and greet every knock on the door with hiding round the back of the couch but your obviously clever enough to get through it and i ,for one, hope you do. After all not all of us were born with a silver spoon hanging out of our arse:ok:

sawotanao

5th Sep 2006, 19:40

Cheer up Wingbar........I've gota rusty spoon hanging outa mine:ok:

dartagnan

5th Sep 2006, 19:52

wingbar,

you are right, have met some great pilots too (like you I am sure), who can not join these TRTO at 30-35000 euro plus tax, cuz mom and dad are not rich.

by chance,some companies hire and pay t/ratings with a bonding contract (3 years).
if I had my own company, I will bond pilots against a free type rating because I am a professional and I like RESPECT!
Airlines asking for money are a disgrace to this profession.

wingbar

5th Sep 2006, 21:36

Dartagan I agree, and when we are in the powerful postions, - by the way I have every intention of being in this industry, I will purposefully take those who have given something and showed hard work and determination to succeed in the profession.

WB :ok:

PS Sawotanao, I ditto that centiment sir...:)

VFE

6th Sep 2006, 09:54

I think Wingbar's open honesty about his current situation shows balls and the somewhat aggressive attitude displayed in some of the replies to him just shows what a cut-throat industry we're all involved with. Most guys at some point feel the way he does at the moment, experience the downside, however most keep that stiff upper lip that Whirlygig mentioned. Maybe it's a survival technique for some but mordacity towards a fellow 'professional' is not very 2006 is it?

Most guys working their way up the ladder do not suffer fools gladly (not saying Wingbar is a fool, but you know what I mean) and if they see someone on the skids then they'll either do the cruel-to-be-kind routine or give them a subtle boot-in as they scarper on up... That is the way it works unfortunately and it's one of the aspects to career seeking that is a necessary evil I guess.

I have certainly experienced both sides of the luck coin during my time training/job seeking and I tell you what, there's nothing worse than being on the b-side of a situation and having everyone think it's self induced kismet so chin-up Wingbar, things will improve and with regards money mate - remember, it's only money.

Good luck Wingbar,

VFE.

wingbar

7th Sep 2006, 12:28

Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and support, as of Monday I start as an IT consultant at a large food company, seem like nice people, nice offices, and well paid........It will at least kill off the debts very quickly and give me room to breath...

I will miss getting up in the morning blasting through the door and feeling thoroughly enthusiastic about my work as a flying instructor....sadly, IT, as well paid as it might be, is nothing to get excited about at all....-I'll be encapsulated in an office block for 35 hours a week......but its a job I know..

Well, at least the internet access is free, and I can be sending apps out on my lunch break...

Keep you posted

WB

Lightheart

7th Sep 2006, 13:01

WB,

Things happen for a reason, though it is not always evident why it is happening at the time. There's a lesson in every experience. Think about what this situation meant for you.

Pay attention to your immediate priorities (as you are doing) and go with the flow.

Keep focused on your long-term goals and soon you'll see how things will work out. You'll get there.

It's all about attitude. Most importantly, take it easy. The best things in life are achieved with a light heart.

buzzc152

7th Sep 2006, 13:04

Wingbar

Braveman. I know exactly how crushing it is to have to return to your old mundane job after having got out of it once and achieved the first tentative step on the flying career ladder.

Keep bashing out CV's......... much better still, go and visit people at the weekends and good things should happen. It did for me, and not a moment too soon. I was almost ready to kill myself after having to return to banking when my seasonal flying job came to an end. Still, a month or so back in the real (but very sh*tty) world makes you appreciate even more all your hard work when eventually it does all come together.

Good luck to you sir.

Buzz

ps, C Scott says hi.

wingbar

7th Sep 2006, 13:18

Thank you Light heart and Buzzc150,

It is hard and I'm preparing my self emotionally for whats coming next, I think Light Heart is right, maybe when you want something so much you can't quite reach it , it's when you take a step back you see the solution...I think the IT will be a positive step, - It will keep my brain sharp, but not excited...I will just have to grin and bare it...but theres worse things in the world...

At least one thing I know, when I start on Monday, I gave it my best shot this summer;- had a superb time, flew the schedule until the aircraft were out of 50 hours in days..built some time and made some lovely friends, for that I am very thankful..

I am not giving up, but I have to be real and live in the world of bills and salary and the rest..as we all have to.

I shall try to do the odd weekend when I can, just a few hours here and there to keep me current.

Thank you for your kindness,

WB

corsair

10th Sep 2006, 16:40

I've read this thread with interest. I can understand wingbar's frustration to some extent. Been there myself. In debt and no obvious way forward.

However I would be more understanding if wingbar was 35 years old rather than less than 25. I would be more understanding if wingbar had 1600 hours under his belt rather than 600 and couldn't find a job. I would be more understanding if he didn't have an Instructor's rating and couldn't afford to stay current because of his debts.

In short in comparsion to many, wingbar you are lucky, you are young, you have an instructor's rating and you have 600 hours already. You are damm lucky. At your age I had none of the above. Get some perspective. There is plenty of time for you achieve the career you want. Come back in ten years time and cry about it then if you must.

Right now all you have to do is sort out your current financial situation and stay current. If that means getting a job in IT so be it. Come back in two years time and try again. Two years is nothing in the overall scheme of things, believe me.

You will see things differently by then. I have noticed that when many people reach the age 24 or 25, a degree of maturity kicks in.

I had similiar set backs and years out of flying like many others. But like the seasons, opportunities come around again and again.

I have occasionally told my story to non flyers notably my wife and they always expressed amazement or sympathy with my 'plight'.

But I always point out: This is not a sad story, don't bother having any sympathy for me. I enjoyed every minute of the flying and would do it all again. I had fantastic experiences over the years. No one asked me to become a pilot and I have no right to a career. If I wanted to fly for a living, then I needed to work hard for it and be patient.

It's as simple as that. You don't need sympathy, your story is not a sad story. It's a temporary glitch in a potentially long career.

There are no sad stories here.

wingbar

11th Sep 2006, 11:55

First day back in the office.... peeking out of the windows....I want my cockpit back asap....I will do everything in my power to return...this is definately temporary.....

WB

papazulu

11th Sep 2006, 12:06

However I would be more understanding if wingbar was 35 years old rather than less than 25. I would be more understanding if wingbar had 1600 hours under his belt rather than 600 and couldn't find a job. I would be more understanding if he didn't have an Instructor's rating and couldn't afford to stay current because of his debts.

Well...I am in the first case you mentioned, apart for those 1000+ hrs that I wish I had if the system wasn't in the way it is here...Ehhhhhhmmm...sorry about it! Should I lease wingbar thread & posts and put my nick in it, then? I took his very same way few weeks ago, with a chocked heart...still, I keep my mouth shut and look for better times but I cannot see any for the time being. Just one thing: financial debt isn't that bad. The spiritual or moral is not longer refoundable to those I contracted with, so...think twice before posting any reply.

Wingbar, hope you'll drop office job for a flightdeck soon mate. Wish you all the best.

PZ :ok:

George Foreman

11th Sep 2006, 13:00

Well having read through this lengthy topic I only have a couple of comments to add... As a self (and I do mean self) funded Integrated student I met one or two "Lucifers" during my training, and they soured the atmosphere a little for me. As a type they are highly gullible and naive.

Throughout my professional life I have sought the best training from one of the big name, highly-regarded institutions and I applied the same pholosophy to aviation. However, when you are paying yourself the question of value for money arises. One might also regret paying up front for a service not yet delivered, and in this way I was also probably a bit naive initially, if I am honest. However, I always kept an open and enquiring mind.

Thankfully "Lucifers" are rare, but these people do their compatriots no favours in the real world of aviation, which is a fantastically diverse place full of people from all walks of life with all kinds of flying backgrounds and aviation/life experience.

Thankfully this kind of attitude is a minority view, but it is non the less ill informed and all totally unsubstantiated, as WWW and Scroggs have attested. Not that any of this matters 6 months down the line as WWW says, but in my subsequent airline training I find that most of the colleagues I meet in the crew room or the sim centre have a modular training background these days.

Any credible commentator will be someone who takes a blanced view of this debate; there are all sorts of factors involved in making the decision on how and where to conduct your training. I enjoyed my basic training and have some good friends from those days, but there are also some excellent modular schools out there and with hindsight, if I had to do it all again, on the same budget I'd set myself a disciplined timetable for it all and go modular, saving the integrated "cost premium" for a FI rating &/or a self-sponsored type rating if necessary (as it increasingly is).

There are as many flight training ideologies out there as there are preachers, (or marketeers). However, with hindsight, my view now is that for the same money it has to be a better bet to have the same licence and a FI or to be type qualified (albeit following a selection process, and on some sort of cadet scheme) than simply integrated and at the whim of both the market and your school.

Again, just my thoughts.

Happy landings to all,
George

dartagnan

12th Sep 2006, 14:29

wingbar is in the same situation I was years ago...

wait for the good opportunity to get a job think airlines will hire mature pilots, and 10 years later, you discover a new wall in front of you:ugh: , at 40, you are to old to learn.

I recently received emails telling me max age 32yo to apply and the candidate must have no experience.

So what 's the point to pay for a training, when you can apply and not invest one penny from your pocket?

eghi r20

13th Sep 2006, 07:17

Wingbar.........clear your pm box........u bad bad boy........

wingbar

13th Sep 2006, 09:43

Hiya Eghi r 20!

I have just cleared!

Lol!

WB

wingbar

18th Sep 2006, 11:17

Just got out of IT back into intruction to realise......what the hell, I can't pay the bills again.....

I walked out of IT after just one day in the role, it was a 34000 p/a job as well....I feel so so stupid...it would have helped sort a lot of things out...but the aviator in me just said go for the flying.......

So I'm now trying to get an aviation related ground job, really the instruction will have to be part time..........

I'm off to the dole office until I find something full time.......

I can't believe the knightmare I'm in, plus I just joined a really nice company to instruct with too, they have high standards, lovely aircraft, but I cannot afford to live off this....its so so sad......

I really don't know whats going to become of me at this rate.....again close to tears as usual....

:{

WB

bjkeates

18th Sep 2006, 11:52

Wingbar, I seriously sympathise with your situation; I hope I'm never in a position where I can't afford to pay bills because my job doesn't pay well enough.

But at the same time, and I don't want to sound too harsh here, how many chances do you want? People on here have given you a lot of good, sound advice, most of which centered around getting back into your IT job, finding your feet and sorting out your finances then moving back into flying when you can support it - which, from your subsequent posts, it sounded like you were following. Announcing publicly on here that you lasted a whole day and you're back to square one is tantamount to sticking two fingers up at all the good-hearted people who have tried to help you out.

You can't just say "the aviator in me just said go for the flying". The lazy arse in me says quite frequently "don't bother studying for your exams today, sit around and have a few beers and play Football Manager for a few hours" but I have to shut that out because I know if I don't study my potential career is on the line. By the same principle, you just have to accept that there is no magic wand that can be waved and you are going to have to do something you don't want to do. Plus, in the future, how do you think this is going to look to an airline as an employer?

"So, Mr. Wingbar, we notice from your CV you worked at an IT firm for one day before leaving. What happened there?"
"Umm, well, I didn't like it very much."
"Oh really? So what's going to happen if there comes a bit of your airline training you don't like? Are you just going to abandon it and leave?"

I feel quite bad lecturing someone I don't know and who is seemingly at his wits' end, particularly when it comes to stating the obvious like this, but what more do you want from people on here? A load of posts from people saying "don't worry Wingbar, everything will be OK" is not going to pay the bills or get you into an airline job.

If I were you I'd be crawling back to your IT ex-manager's desk, spitting and polishing his shoes and begging for your IT job back. Play on Flight Simulator in your lunch breaks if you must satisfy your insatiable appetite for flying, but the best advice that can be given to you has already been given long ago in this thread. Do the flying part time, get a full time job and get those bills paid before you think about moving on. I genuinely feel sorry for your situation, but only you can sort it out.

BitMoreRightRudder

18th Sep 2006, 12:54

Mr Wingbar.

Is there no way you could do IT during the week and instruct part time on the weekends? I've look at this thread from time to time and it seems you were getting things sorted with a job that will ease the pressure of your debt, which I think is the key thing here. If you are in debt you need to take decisive action and stick to your guns. Is your latest return to instructing backed up by a plan that will see you work towards financial solvency? Mate as hard as it may be for you to palate right now, you need a full time job to pay your way through the next few years. If you can find a ground based job in aviation great, but for 34K a year it is going to be something similar to your IT role - office based looking out the window type stuff - that will still leave you longing to be in the air. Personally I think you had a ticket out of your predicament with the IT job.

If you stick at it you will get there, you have to believe that. The most direct route out of debt should be your priority right now, not the most direct route to a better paid flying job. It might not have seemed like it sat behind that desk but the IT job could actually be the best and most expedient way of combining and achieving both those goals.

All the best mate.:)

Say again s l o w l y

18th Sep 2006, 14:29

I have to agree with the previous two posters. IT maybe cr*p, but if it keeps the wolf from the door.....
Just be thankful you aren't struggling just to stay alive somewhere in the 3rd world.
If you want to fly, then you have to make sacrifices. If that means you need to pay off your debt, then so be it.

Get a grip man and get a bit of perspective. There are millions of people on this planet who'd kill for what you currently have. You'll start sounding like a whinging child soon. Lots of people do jobs they hate, you are fortunate that it need only be a temporary solution until you can sort the finances out.

speedrestriction

18th Sep 2006, 15:55

Just got out of IT back into intruction to realise......what the hell, I can't pay the bills again.....
I walked out of IT after just one day in the role, it was a 34000 p/a job as well

Are you serious about making a career for yourself as a professional aviator? What does the above say about your decision making skills? I do sympathise with you for your financial state but you need to:

I) Make a list prioritising your needs and then set about addressing those needs.

II) Take personal responsibility for your action (and inaction).

III) Stop wasting your time on PPRuNe; print off this thread and highlight all the good advice, there is more than enough to keep you going.

Tomorrow isn't going to be any better unless you do something today to make it better.

SR

the aviator1977

18th Sep 2006, 17:39

Wingbar,

The first day in a new job is always the hardest. It'll get easier the longer you stay there. £34K is a good salary and I don't think walking out on that is a wise move especially when you have high debts! I think you must be under quite a bit of stress to make such a quick decision to leave after just one day! There are plenty of people you can talk to (for free) for help/advice in confidence rather than exposing yourself on here. Don't rule out this option- have an open mind and you'll be surprised how different things will look and a bit of clarity will come your way.

You are not alone in this world. Ask people for help in any way they can. Most people feel good about helping others and one day you'll be able to return the favour. Networking is the key. Keep plugging away with applications (review your CV), keep up to date with which airlines are recruiting, regularly make phone calls to airlines (some like this some don't but just be polite and you'll soon know which ones you can/can't phone),join BALPA and IPA. Form a job hunting group with other unemployed fatpl holders (unemployed by way of not a flying job). Go out there and be proactive. Hang around an airport on your day off and try and catch any pilots walking past and have cv's with you to hand out. Ask the airline if you can arrange a visit to their head office(they can only say no!) Just go for it!! You can do it!!!! At the end of the day you get out what you put in. Have an action plan written down and then do it.

3 key qualities that an airline wants when hiring an airline pilot

1) Determination - Cheap to train/don't be a training risk
2) Responsible - Don't prang the plane, good role model, leader
3) Flexible/Adaptable - Open minded, blend in with the team (conflict management, good communicator etc, i.e good CRM skills

Hope this helps

The Aviator1977

p.s I'm still looking for my first job too but i'm more determined than ever to succeed and will never give up

wingbar

19th Sep 2006, 19:12

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for your support as usuall, its really lovely to know I have some friends around..it can be a lonely time.....

I have been on the look out for more IT jobs today, as I may not be able to get one back after I walked out on the last...or if I do it will be an entry level job......I can't believe this is all happening......I may literally have to get one or 2 badly paid jobs BK, Tesco's because my name is effectively mud in the at certain IT recruitment agencys...

I will get there though.......

I am strong enough to recover from this awful awful state...

I had to call the flying school where I am today and tell them I can't fly because I cant afford it..... what a shame.....:{

To every problem theres a solution, and I'll try my best to find one...

But sadly it means coming out of full time flying....again....and again...

WB

wingbar

20th Sep 2006, 18:04

This is all making me very ill indeed,..In fact I'm retiring from flying as of today, just for a short while until I get this hideous mess sorted out.....I have just been offered a very poorly paid office job...which I may now have to take.....the pay is so poor that the first hours work will just about cover the bus fair in and the parking, ...

I spend most days trying to gain my sanity,

Flyings not a thing to be doing when you feel this way out....

Mr Man

20th Sep 2006, 18:51

Hey wing, keep yerself cheerful! Email me your new number and I'll call you when back in UK.
MR
(Could be worse,you could have had a wrong operation by mistake!)

Sunray Minor

20th Sep 2006, 18:51

I'd love to meet the first charlie uniform november tango that paid for a type rating out of his/her own pocket. Give them one damn good kicking and tell them how they have now destoyed the chances for us lot.

Unfortunately Bob, that's the market economy. Unless you are willing to convert to the more left-leaning political bent of socialism then you had better accept that aviation is almost exclusively a rich man's domain - like horse racing, fast boats and fancy cars.

If prostituting yourself to a TR gets you the job, why is that any worse than prostituting yourself to an extra 20 hours a week working an additional part time job to pay your way into an airline? It still shows committment does it not?

BTW, before you start, I earn 18K after tax, so I can't even afford airtime.

the aviator1977

21st Sep 2006, 07:28

Wingbar,

I'm not trying to be funny but maybe you shouldn't come on here and expose yourself like this. Maybe you should change your name to wingebar! We all have problems mate just deal with them! No-one likes someone who constantly moans all the time.

rgds

The Aviator1977

inner

21st Sep 2006, 07:43

Wingbar, get a grip on your life. Sometimes in life you have to switch a button in your head. At least you have a FI with hours. I know guys with a FI but they don't find a job as instructor. I only have +-350h, do some touristic flights for a company, UNPAID and i 'm looking almost 18 months for a flying job, so far without any result. BUT i'm not complaining, i have a stupid job but at least i can pay my debts and flying with.

How can you think to get a job if you are always complaining?? For a 25 year old 'boy' you should be more optimistic, no matter what your situation is, you got still a whole life and perhaps a 35year long flying career in front of you.

Be a man, switch that button, stop complaining!!

good luck

Pilot Pete

21st Sep 2006, 09:04

Wingbar,
I'm not trying to be funny but maybe you shouldn't come on here and expose yourself like this. Having followed this thread for some time I find I have to agree with 'the aviator 1977'. If you are genuine then you have my sympathy, but I can't help feeling that you have 'exposed' enough of yourself that would make any potential airline employer run a mile, especially if they employ a psychologist to do some of their interviewing. They would NOT contemplate putting you in the seat of one of their aircraft as an FO with the characteristics you have displayed on here. Again, I repeat, IF you are genuine (as some other posters infer) then I think you need to seriously get some help to sort your life out, not just from a career point of view. You are starting to sound irrational (can't make decisions, make decisions and then back down soon after, can't think logically, craving sympathy).

In my opinion you should be no-where near an aircraft in this state, be it an airliner or a C152. I would urge you to seek professional help as you are starting to sound like a stuck record and nobody here can sort your problems out for you, it's like an alcoholic or a depressive; you need external help from a professional who can get YOU to WANT to CONFRONT and SORT OUT your own problems.

All the best

PP

ps. and if you are a wind up merchant, congrats you've done quite well keeping this going thus far, but you are starting to bore.

wingbar

21st Sep 2006, 09:41

Well as of today I am retiring from flying full stop, I doubt I will return in any great rush.....

I am certainly never ever doing any more instruction ever again.

I am going back to the crap jobs in the city, but at least there I gain my sanity, because I am not well, due to all of this....

This is a sensible decision on my part, and if in the future I get my life sorted and I feel ready, I will in 1-2 years have another try at the airlines, because to be honest, thats all I want to do, others have managed to get there straight away, why shouldn't I or any of us other less fortunate modular guys? ...
I ought to pay for a type rating, but it would take 10 years to save up...after all everybody else jumps the ques, why should we be the decent ones? We get f*** all respect for it.

And yes I am seeking help from my Banks...just hope this never happens to anybody else that encounters this awful situation...

Just an after thought but;

Yesterday, my 17 year old cusin was asking me about her prospects about becoming a pilot, she's very bright , doing well at schoolon the harder A'levels.

I suggested she didn't bother as her parents don't have the money for an integrated course or a type rating there after,
I did advise her to look at CTC though, she is still L' bent on becoming a pilot, I just told her straight and gave an unbiased view, and wished her the best, though if she has any sense which she does, she will go into well regarded, well set up profession like Law or Medicine, where one simply can't just throw money in and get any numpty through the door. Which is sadly the reason the 'profession' is now considered a very ordinary, even lowly job, airline pilot is no more, and the regard from the general public is as low as a bus driver and the pay decreasing accordingly...

I will always a have a personal sweet tooth for it though, and hope that one day I get to do it, no matter what the others thought... It's hard when you have this childhood dream, that you have cultivated for years, and have pursued, what entering the ATC at 13 and serving a few years, then saving by working weekends to fly the odd hour at an airfield, then taking the leap and going across the pond 4 times at various stages to gaing hours, then slogging away for the whole thing , bankrupting yourself and others practically....

Really please, if any mothers or fathers read this thread who are thinking of letting their children go in for this, please, consider it all very carefully;
I am a normal guy, who really tried his best, and heck I have even past sim checks and airline' interviews before now, but due to one reason or another (out of my control) they have come to absolutely nothing, and now I have nothing, I look around at my friends who are steadily establishing themselves, with nice jobs, their own places, nice cars, clothes, girlfriends.....I have nothing but a lousy blue book, and a knackered flight case, a headset that works when it wants and a pocket full of dreams.

You lot can read into this what you like, I tell it how it is, no storys, just how it happened for me, you can be rude to me, give me abuse, and tell me the oh so famous 'you'll be alright hahaha! Or You'll get there ! But I know the truth about this industry clear as glass now, and I'm in no rush to get in...shame, you know, it looked really nice for a few years back when I was 7 years old falling in love with aircraft, but then that was a long time a go...its changed, and its gone now...

Well, must dash , I have to find a recruiter I haven't upset, explain the 12months worth of un-employment gaps on my CV and just pray for another chance in my old industry, because after last week my chance at another highly skilled professional job in it are minimal...due to this Aviation..

There you have it,

I will still frequent here from time to time, but just as a retired pilot, who had a passing interest once....

All the very best to you,

WB :ok: