Civvy RT

[LL-Snowman]

Was flying on a nav ex the other day and completely stunned by some of the RT transmissions made by civvy flying schools. it seems that they talk just to make noise and clog up the airwaves.:ugh:

having said that, i got passed on to a small city airport in south yorkshire, who were very helpful and kept the transmissions short and punchy.

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat where you can't get a word in due to some johnson having a conversation with another aircraft?

[Wader2]

I hope that little civvie airport in South Yorkshire was not Humberside.

[LL-Snowman]

negative, definatley not humberside, theyre too far east to be south yorkshire anyway.:}

[Ridgerunner]

I am a civvy pilot and a UAS stude, so I view the R/T from both sides of the fence. I do find some civvy R/T to be utter rubbish. I can find myself getting quite hot under the collar as I am waiting to put in a transmission as a waypoint or something approaches, or if I have an important call to make and someone is sitting chatting away making a right faff. Military R/T seems far more succinct and sensible. At times I do find more information could be passed, but ultimately its far more efficient than listening to the drivel coming out on VHF at times.

I think you need to remember that civvy flying does not have the rigorous standards that military pilots have to aspire to, and there are somewhat "doddery" types out there who need the extra long transmissions to be sure. Personally, I don't think I would feel safe flying civvy GA with military style R/T, primarily because a lot of our airfields are A/G and we do not have a tower or radar controller to watch us all the time. I do understand how shocking it must be to entirely mil pilots coming across it as times- flying schools I can live with, but some qualified pilots out there are a lot worse, and they are the ones that get to me.

[Tombstone]

Airplane!

Flight Control: Flight 209 you're clear for takeoff.
Clarence Oveur (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name3915): Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
FC: LA departure frequency 123.9.
Clarence Oveur (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name3915): Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Request vector, over.
Clarence Oveur (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name3915): What?
FC: Flight 209 clear for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Clarence Oveur (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name3915): Roger, Roger, what's our vector, victor?
FC: Now we're in radio clearance, over.
Clarence Oveur (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name3915): That's Clarence Oveur, over.
Victor Basta: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
FC: Roger, over.
Clarence Oveur (http://www.moviemistakes.com/name3915): What?
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Who?

[LL-Snowman]

nice joke.
looks like there are a few people who notice the gashness of some civvy places.
i was flyin the other day, and about to call finals to land, when someone broadcasted the following message, 'hey fella.....cup of tea fella......ah ah aaaah'
iv never known anythin like it, as strange and annoying as it was, it had me in tears with laughter.
anyone got anythin to beat that?

[Tombstone]

Bite into my wing and don't say anything but '2,' 'bingo,' and 'Lead, you're on fire.'
— Briefing to a novice USAF wingman: stay close, acknowledge channel changes, tell me when you're out of gas and let me know if there is something wrong with my aircraft. Otherwise, shut up.


Now that IS concise!

[Tombstone]

http://www.skygod.com/graphics/nicola.gif

[SNAFU.]

There are a whole bunch of reasons why some civvy pilots are poor at RT. I think it's where you learned to fly that determines the quality of your RT. Incorrect phraseology etc is understandable from a civvy pilot who has very little exposure to 'proper' air traffic but there is no exscuse for private chit chat at any level!

[LL-Snowman]

SNAFU i couldnt agree more. in most cases there are civvy pilots who honcho with others and do try and help each other out, but in most cases it sounds like your tuned into gash fm. theres a whole bunch of stuff that needs sorting.

[Tombstone]

Perhaps it's an issue of clarity of RT being relative to speed. At 7-8 miles per min 250 ft, you don't have the time or brain power to waffle!

I remember flying through Spade a while back & trying to check in with ATC only to find a C130 (none RAF) on the freq, waffling on about Hadrian's Wall being a fantastic sight & a monument of Roman engineering. He then went on to ask ATC whether there were any other decent sights of historical interest! No prizes for guessing where the pilot was from.:ugh:

[SkyHawk-N]

Civil flight schools usually teach students to use short and concise RT. Who, where, intentions, etc. Problems can arise when pilots don't use the radio much, either intentionally or due to lack of confidence. This lack of practice can lead to longer transmissions and mumbling.

I have heard 'waffle' going on at AG airfields where there is a club member in the tower talking to a club member in the curcuit. Have also heard it at glider airfields where they talk about anything and everything.

[SNAFU.]

Flying yesterday. Listened to a local glider site whilst en route, someone on there talking about a recent trip to Kazakhstan and then proceeded to tell some sh!t jokes to amuse everyone. A complete clown, he certainly sounded like A Fool.

Bottom line is don't let it bother you, i don't think anybody's RT is perfect 100% of the time.:ok:

[orca]

I personally find transmissions such as perfect but long winded Practice PANs and joining calls from military slow movers that should know better far more annoying than rubbish RT from those that may be excused.

[dakkg651]

Try Cosford on a standard weekend. Four Vigilants in the northern circuit, southern circuit active with gliders, four Tutors recovering with straight in approaches, air ambulance departing, one controller, one frequency and just then some civvie breaks in with a 60 second transmission giving the whole history of his local flight from Halfpenny Green and asking for a non-existent radar service. MAYHEM!

[tablet_eraser]

"The radios are not there for private Polish... chit-chat!"

"Shut-up! In Polish!"

[Vifferpilot]

Try Cosford on a standard weekend. Four Vigilants in the northern circuit, southern circuit active with gliders, four Tutors recovering with straight in approaches, air ambulance departing, one controller, one frequency and just then some civvie breaks in with a 60 second transmission giving the whole history of his local flight from Halfpenny Green and asking for a non-existent radar service. MAYHEM!

Damn, I was just going to intimate the same thing about Wyton (except for the gliders, and air ambulance, and Halfpenny Green). Oh well, similar story over here, 4 in the circuit, 6 on recovery, police helo on a scramble, 2 para-gliders 1nm south not talking, 2 flying club guys trying to join the circuit and a monologue from some GA with excellent position reports etc and no radar here so don't care!

[dakkg651]

Sorry Viffer.

Sounds like Cosford and Wyton are great places to learn about situational awareness. I know some visiting pilots have had the c**p frightened out of them and vowed never to come again on a weekend.

[High_Expect]

Ridgerunner thanks for sharing your Wealth of information with us.... I'll
bare in mind your request for 'a bit more info'. Make sure you pass that
'nugget' to CFS so they can alter the way we do things.... I often find
myself wanting 'just that bit more' info when talking to GCI/AWACS on one
box whilst maintaining all formation comm for an IMC 4ship in grinder
without JTIDS on the back box.... There's a reason why do things the way
we do, and may I be as bold as to suggest perhaps you don't!? ;)

[VCR]

I work both military and civvy aircraft....you can get naff RT from both! :E

[Ridgerunner]

Hello High Expect... I follow the R/T procedures and phraseology as I have been taught and learnt. I do find the mil r/t very concise and in comparison to the usual civvy r/t it can feel unusual to me. Please don't criticise me for sharing my opinion and experiences- it is far from a "wealth of knowledge" and whilst I am vastly inexperienced in comparison to yourself, I should not be afraid to post. Furthermore- I in no way suggested anything about changing procedures or sending any "nuggets" to CFS- I am not so obtuse to be ignorant of my position. May I boldly suggest you "cool your jets" :)

[LL-Snowman]

snafu, that message earlier about the sh!t joke telling guy inbound from uzbehkistan sounds crazy. i think iv heard him too, cos i was listening in to full sutton radio, and he asked the controller, who im guessing he knew, 'what would you rather be.......or a wasp?' most definatley a fool.

[Two's in]

Private Civvy is more often than not long winded and irrelevant, but there is still the odd Military guy who calls in with Ac Type, Position, Altitude, Persons on Board, Type of Engagement, Pension plan, JPA password, Number of late meals booked and whether or not any veggie meals included, favorite colour and wife's nickname, only to get;

Controller: Bloggs 123, Request Type of Service?

Bloggs 123: Uuuuuh, Standby.

[sonicstomp]

I heard a funny one from a 'Reach' c/s the other day...

London Mil - "Reach __, what type of service on leaving the upper air?"

Reach__ - "What yall got?"

London Mil - "Well...err..we can offer you a radar information service or there is a radar advisory service...err...

Reach__ - "That first one sounds pretty good..."

;)

[Biggus]

Then there is the allegedly true story of the RAF Hercules asked by Brize Norton ATC what type of service was required........

The reply was something along the lines of ...'the usual p*ss poor one will be fine'.....

The Herc captain got in a bit pooh for that one apparently!

[microlight AV8R]

"The radios are not there for private Polish... chit-chat!"

"Shut-up! In Polish!"


"Repeat pleeze" :)

[stiknruda]

I've heard bad RT from both but must confess that nowadays my side - the civvies do seem to waffle after having hit the PTT without knowing what they are going to say!

A few weeks ago (actually 23/6) I heard an absolute blinder:- late Friday afternoon and I'm transiting Lakenheath on my way to the South West. I'm fat, dumb and happy having been radar id'd and I'm listening to a new voice that has just popped up on freq and been told to squawk and ident.

"Errrr, umm, Lakenheath Zone, G O L F A L F A B R A VO C H A R L I E D E L T A squawk 4602. G O L F A L F A B R A VO C H A R L I E D E L T A is a Piper PA28-161, two persons on board from Norwich to Norwich, via Attleborough, Swaffham, Kings Lynn, Downham Market, Thetford, Snetterton, Hethel, Norwich. Three hours endurance and I'm currently 4 miles south east of errrr, ummm............ Attlebridge. No sorry, south west of Attlebridge at 2200' on 1016."

Lakenheath, "G-CD, radar identified, Lakenheath QNH 1011. Remain clear of Lakenheath and Mildenhall ATZ."

"G O L F A L F A B R A VO C H A R L I E D E L T A Lakenheath QNH 1011 and will remain clear of Lakenheath and Mildenhall ATZ."

Two minutes later:

Lakenheath: G-CD, two F16s right to left your 3 o'clock at 7,000'.

G-CD: Ah Lakenheath, my passenger has the traffic in sight. Would they like to come by and say hello?

Lakenheath: G-CD, excuse me Sir, are you saying that you'd like the two jets to fly past you?

G-CD: Yes, please - we could wave at them and my passenger could take some photos that we could send them later.

L'heath: G-CD that's a negative they are doing a procedure recovery.

G-CD: Oh well never mind, maybe another time.

L'heath: G-CD you are now approaching the edge of my zone, squawk 7000 and frequency change approved.

G-CD: Thank you!

I really was wetting myself at this stage as the Septic controller had £ucked them off as soon as he could.

[dakkg651]

Sixteen year old female ATC Cadet on her first solo circuit at Cosford earlier this year.

"Alpha six.......................Oh I cant remember my f*****g callsign but I'm downwind to land.

[LL-Snowman]

that is quality! sometimes its better to say nothing huh.

[A and C]

If you read the CAA RT manual and then add a very low time student pilot who is trying to use the RT as the manual states you will soon see why the some of the RT in light aviation is so long winded, with only 15-20 hours on the aircraft I think that some of you would have not been much better if you had the CAA manual to work from.

The three things that realy get me pi**ed off are :-
1 the people who dont listen out before transmitting and step on the middle of a readback.

2 Opening the transmition with "speedwing 123 with you" what in the hell is this "with you" thing ?

3 The reply to an SSR code " 7001 coming down"

All of these are common to the airlines in the UK and the not listening out is becoming a real problem, perhaps people will learn that one transmition at the right time takes less time than having to say it all twice because the first message was lost by stepping on another transmition.

[ShyTorque]

(Ex mil now civvie). Trouble is, a lot of folks are taught more or less what to say but they AREN'T taught what NOT to say. :rolleyes:

Yesterday was a bit of a 'mare on the R/T, especially Coventry and Luton as it was extremely busy and very difficult to get a word in edgeways. However, a lot of transitting pilots seemed to be competing to tell ATC just about everything apart from the colour of their socks.

E.G. "G-****. I have now just seen two aircraft pass on my left hand side!" (Under a FIS in Class G).

I wasn't alone in saying "Fer Christ's sake, shut the F*** up!" or "Yes, very nice, thanks a lot for telling us that" more than once without pressing the button.

[clicker]

I operate a radio, albeit not an aviation one and we have the same problems. To a large degree it depends on the instructor. If he/she allows waffle, thats what the student will speak.

We have operators in my control room who will read a complete serial to a unit. When someone's getting his head kicked in you don't need to tell the police officers that are going that its all over some stupid argument that happened last year.

[whowhenwhy]

Ahh yes, Reach callsigns. Assorted responses to my asking what type of radar service they require have included:

a"n ILS please?"
"some fuel and a screen wash" (unfortunately he was serious)
and my own personal favourite,
"can I have the full service please?" to which I wittily responded, "would you like some coffee with that?" Obviously septic didn't have a clue and asked whether that was the famous British sense of humour.

Getting back to the thread, the worst civvy RT I ever heard was from a Lufthansa captain in an A340, departing Newcastle and flying through the Vale of York (clever chap!). When given avoiding action against the pop up fast-jet contact in his 12 o'clock 6 miles climbing hard right at him, his reply was...
"Vot? Ve are on-route civil traffic. I am not going to move, I haf passengers. Tell ze other aircraft to move out of my way."

"no, no" quoth I "you are deluded and you'd better turn fast if you wish to avoid serious embarassment."

"Ahh, yes, I see him now on TCAS and you are right. I shall turn as you say!"

Oh how we laughed after filling out all the paperwork....:E c*&^s

[High_Expect]

T'was banter me'old :ok:

[Ridgerunner]

No bother mate

[jeppsbore]

OK, so if mil pilots are so great at R/T what about the two tucanos at EGKB on saturday? Arriving fom the east given an overhead join, right hand, downwind for 21 only to continue their right hand turn till they were heading east again straght into the path of a C303 that was following the correct procedure. Cessna had to take avoiding action so that the two tucanos could now join left hand to land. If as I suspect, tucanos on a display detail are flown by instuctors this does'nt say much for the quality of R/t and airmanship in her majestsy's flying club. Surely knowing left from right is fairly fundermental in gaining an instructer rating?

JB

[Runaway Gun]

No instructer ratings (or instuctors) in the RAF, they only rate instructors.
And they arrive from the east. Straight from the east.

Her Majesty is not amused... Fundementally.

RG

[SmilingKnifed]

2 Opening the transmition with "speedwing 123 with you" what in the hell is this "with you" thing ?


Not sure if that's a rhetorical question (apologies if so). It's an irritating Americanism used by PPL holders who did their training stateside. They're often the ones who also ask for a flight following service (and don't bother with lookout or navigation as they'd rather just stare at the GPS).:ugh:

With you also often seems to be used by septic commercial crews who are ignorant of RT procedures on rocking up.:ugh:

[indie cent]

Jepp's-a-bore.

You didn't, by any chance, ever fail selection as a military pilot did you...?

I dunno, just a vibe I'm getting!:}

[boswell bear]

Anyone heard a psuedo mil pilot talking a whole bunch of crud to Leeds Bradford on a Saturday afternoon boring the @rse off everyone with "2 POB, with green socks on, and my finest £2 off ebay Ray Bans replicas, one day I'm gonna be an airline captain so get used to listening to me fellas"

You know who I mean fella.......yes you "Jordanian" Airforce man :cool:

[merman]

On a Sunday transit from Prestwick to Culdrose several years ago - via the scenic Irish Sea route!! Contacted London Info for a FIS just to be able to talk to someone and heard the following as we were listening out. Not sure where the aircraft in question was (somewhere in the SE) - come to think of it though, neither did he:ugh:

Puddle jumper: London Info this is G-**** out of XXXX en-route to YYYY requesting FIS.
London: You are aware that YYYY is closed on a Sunday?
PJ:No!!
London: Do you have an alternative?
PJ: Err No. Not sure what airfields are open near here.
London: Are you able to return to XXXX?
PJ: Err no. I don't think I have the fuel.
London (voice levels raised a few octaves): I have your location, stand by sir and I'll try and get you to the closest aerodrome. What is your endurance?

You don't want to know the answer; suffice to say he made it to his alternative destination. This happened about 10 years ago, so I've forgotten much of the detail (c/s, airfields, etc) but the general thread is true. Four of us sat and listened with some amusement and a little trepidation as to whether or not he was going to make it.
It was definitely not April 1st!!

[clicker]

--- just to be able to talk to someone ---

Bet you didn't get a word in edgeways either with that lot going on!

[John Eacott]

Don't any of you come and fly Down Under if you don't like R/T: lots of it! The ability to look out of the clear glass/plastic bit around the cockpit has been replaced with an overriding requirement to make and listen to position calls, all the way round the circuit, for every aircraft :yuk:

RPT won't even operate into a field unless it has a 20nm CTAF(R), and woe betide the aviator who fails to make appropriate calls, preferably as long and as boring as possible, with lots of chit chat from other aircraft establishing just how far they are away from not being involved at all.

NFI, the lot of them :=

[Mmmmnice]

yes there are some civvies & mil who waffle - but why do mil ATC refuse to come in line with ICAO phraseology? given that lack of clarity/understanding is a major cause of accidents, does it help to have words such as 'overshoot', 'go-around' etc mean significantly different things depending on whether you are at a civ or mil a/f? a brit mil pilot visiting a civilian a/f runs the risk of looking like a complete prat if he sticks with the words he usually uses back at homeplate! - and they won't even let you in the grown-ups airspace if you don't sound like you know what's going on!! sorry if this is the wrong thread for this rant - anyone else out there agree?

[Kolibear]

If MIL R/T is so terse, why has this thread got to 3 pages?

(tinhat, incoming, etc)

[LL-Snowman]

boswell bear, i couldnt agree more. i think iv heard him once or twice. standard stuff, boring, pointless.
oh yer, its gone to 3 pages because people have lots of things to say about it, funny stories and such, so shut yer trap and complain somewhere else.

[BEagle]

"yes there are some civvies & mil who waffle - but why do mil ATC refuse to come in line with ICAO phraseology?"

Well said! After a particular incident (pilot under test was a RW Staneval bloke doing his PPL), I put in a CHIRP. Basically the tower controller had cleared a 4-jet to line up after having cleared us to land - even though we were still airborne at 200 ft on the approach. Fortunately the 4-jet mate said 'Negative'.

The response to the CHIRP was dismal. All they were interested in was 'hanging the guilty barsteward'. Whereas the reason we put the CHIRP in was to highlight the limitations of military ATC procedures - in the civil world it would have been "After landing PA28, line up and wait" or somesuch - but spotty Plt Off ATCOs aren't allowed such flexibility with conditional clearances. I rang Farnborough - who stated that they thought that feedback from the military had gone really downhill "Ever since IFS folded and we now have to deal with Army helicopter pilots who haven't a clue about what they're talking about" as they put it.

Don't forget that lots of civvie pilots are amateurs, not professional pilots. If they only fly a few hours per year, it's hardly surprising that their R/T seemingly isn't as good as that of the professionals! But at least they've all taken R/T exams!

But then we have the gashness of much military R/T. Poor clearance readbacks, abysmal understanding of Air Traffic Services Outside Regulated Airspace...shall I go on? Funnily enough, when I was a ME QFI I found that it was often easier to correct the R/T procedures of ex-MELIN co-piglets than that of chopped FJ AFTS students - or 'experienced' RW pilots... 'nuff said?

The standard of many (though not all, I hasten to add) military tower ATCOs is not really that good, I find. All of them should be made to attend a few sessions at a basic FISO aerodrome to learn how pilots can make their own judgements in the circuit. Even amateur PPL spamcan drivers... Then attend a few sessions at a really busy place which copes with civil FIS, approach control etc all on the same frequency. By 'busy' I don't mean one TriStar on 20 mile final and a VC10 in the visual circuit, plus a Herc due in 20 minutes.....

Any of you who end up in civvie street will soon learn how good UK civil ATCOs are!

Remember - "Who you are, where you are, what you want". Anything else the air traffickers can always ask you for!

[green granite]

If you want a busy atc tune into Cranfield over the w/end, at times it's just non stop

[whowhenwhy]

BEagle, I agree with a number of your points but please remember that,as has been pointed out already on this thread, you get cr*p RT all over. Mil, civil, aircrew or ATC, it doesn't tend to make a distinction as far as the standard of rt is concerned.

And the cock-up with the line-up vs take-off instruction was just that, a cock-up, not a problem caused by poor RT. Would it be nice to be able to have a procedure as you suggested as our civ colleagues do-yes! In fact individual units could probably produce a local procedure to do it with station based ac. On a blue-blue day the aircrew would love that kind of flex, but what happens when you have the procedure, it's YLO2 and the spotty oik cocks it up? There isn't much in the way of experienced controllers in towers at the moment!

The point you raised about the CHIRP was spot on though. I remember a number of years ago the stn was having it's post Christmas welcome back flt safety stand-down day and people were talking about filling in paperwork and the stn FSO pointed out the awful record of atcos filing HFORs. One brave atco stood up and pointed out that people previously filing said reports through their SATCOs had been investigated and many had been 'hung like guilty bar stewards' hence the reluctance.

Our OC Ops, very nice chap too-ex Tonka mate don't know where he went, stood up and basically said "chaps if you've been stupid and deserve a roasting then you'll get one. However no-one is going to be hunted down for minor instances and certainly not through filing an HFOR."

Which was all jolly decent because 2 weeks later when I made a god almighty co*k up, we all sat down and had a very adult 'what can we learn from this' session. I think they're trying to instill that kind of a message in the guys from an early stage now, but from what's getting into the "front line" now I wouldn't be too sure. Any ideas Beags?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Any of you who end up in civvie street will soon learn how good UK civil ATCOs are!

Nah, I can't believe I read that ;)

Seriously though, multi engined RAF blokes are generally spot on. Fast jet blokes are probably average, except it would be great if they didn't sound like Darth Vader all the time :p

Civvies are a mixed bag, which when you factor in US Mil, makes the score even :ok:

[BEagle]

The reason I put the CHIRP in was to ask why conditional clearances aren't used by mil ATCOs. The fact that the tower controller said the wrong thing was an error, but not a serious one. He couldn't say "After landing PA28, line up and wait" - the rules don't allow it - and for some reason (intimidation?) didn't want to say "Hold" to the 4-jet.

It wasn't his small error which was the issue, it was the inflexibility and unreasonable differences between civil and military R/T. But the useless purple apologist merely sought to crucify him.

Personally I think that there should be a common core standard - and that purely military procedures (VRIAB, snake climbs, SKE departures etc) should be additional to those.

I can see no reason why 'overshoot' and 'go-around' should not be harmonised.

Or is it just that there's no-one available to staff the harmonisation of civil and miltary R/T?

[Brain Potter]

Blimey BEagle - asking the UK Military to come in line with the rest of the world's R/T phraseolgy !! Whatever will you propose next? Perhaps getting rid of the ridiculous practice of using QFE?

[NutherA2]

Military R/T has its moments too; I remember hearing a mate on my Provost (Piston variety) course call “Changing to 121.5”. Out of interest I switched in time to hear his:

“Practice Pan, Practice Pan, Practice Pan, this is ABCD”. His timing wasn’t good, though, the reply he got was:

“ABCD this is XXXX, no Practice Pans this morning, there is a Royal Flight in progress”.

Next call was: “Practice Mayday, Practice Mayday, Practice Mayday, this is ABCD...”

My mate however made Air Vice Marshal before retiring, I didn’t.

[False Capture]

A few weeks ago I heard the following conversation on a busy departure frequency in the USA:

Delta Airlines Pilot: "Hey Houston, do you think we can fly a heading of 310 so I can have a look at my house?"
Houston Controller: "OK ... errr ... who was that calling?"
Delta Airlines Pilot: "Delta xxxx"
Houston Controller: "Yeah ... I guess so ... it should be OK ... I cant see a problem with that"
Delta Airlines Pilot: "Gee ... errr ... thanks a lot"
Houston Controller: "Yeah well ... that's OK"

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Ouch Beag's!!

Blimey that was a bit of a 'Ben Thatcher on Pedro Mendez' moment regarding Mil ATCOs!!:ouch:

I have done the transition from Mil to Civvy ATC. I concur that there is a lot of scope for coming into line with civvy R/T phraseology. However, there are some who wish to see conditional line-ups die a death. Some believe that there is too much scope for pilot/ATC misunderstanding. Me? I think they work, but you have to be careful who you are giving them to!

Sorry, got to go and take over at console. The radar controller getting overloaded by GA traffic calling with their life story. That was a joke by the way my GA freinds!!;)

[allan907]

Oz - pre November 2005:
All stations xx, Cessna 172 Papa Golf Alpha, downwind to land one-four

Oz - post November 2005
xx traffic, Cessna 172 Papa Golf Alpha, turning crosswind, one- four, xx,
xx traffic, Cessna 172 Papa Golf Alpha turning downwind, one-four, xx.
xx traffic, Cessna 172 Papa Golf Alpha downwind to land one-four, xx.
xx traffic, Cessna 172 Papa Golf Alpha turning base, one-four, xx.
xx traffic, Cessna 172 Papa Golf Alpha turning finals to land one-four, xx


The rules state "Pilots should begin their broadcast by stating the name of trhe aerodrome followed by the aircraft type and call sign. State position, intentions and end the broadcast by repeating the name of the aerodrome. Pilots should make circuit broadcasts just before making a turn because banking aircraft are easier to see"

:eek: :confused:

[Dan Winterland]

While under training in the RAF, my QFI wrote on one of my Sortie Report Forms after an IF trip where my RT had obviously been moving, eloquent and poetic - but not brief,

'Remember that an aircraft flys thanks to a principle discovered by Bernoulli and not Marconi'.

[stickmonkeytamer]

Does anyone else make a point of inhailing loudly into their oxy mask when speaking on civie freqs?? I'll get my coat (and Tie Fighter!!)...