Flying the Pitts S2B

[Cloud Basher]

I have done three flights in the Pitts S2B and am having the most fun with my pants on I have ever had. I have previously flown the Citabria and the Tigermoth.

Just after the experiences of anyone who has flown the Pitts S2B and any hints on flying it and landing it.

Not after the usual use your feet stuff, I am after particular nuances or ideas on getting the most from the aircraft and any handy hints.

For example I have spoken to a couple of people who have a lot of experience in Pitts and they both give different techniques for landing it. One is a side slip proponent coming down final at about 90 kts and wheeling it on most times using power as required. The other puts forward reducing power to idle abeam the threshold on downwind and having a circular approach maintaining 100kts to over the fence so that you have a steeper approach and don't need to sideslip. He puts forward a three point landing - well actually a one point landing, tailwheel first so that the AoA reduces as the mains come on reducing the chance of a bounce. I have watched both pilots land the aircraft and both techniques seem valid.

My instructor is the side slip variety and I have at the moment only tried three landings, the first of which was terrible, second not my better, third was acceptable. He is getting me to learn the aero's side in the Pitts first along with the Emergergency Spin Recovery Technique for the Pitts (power to idle, let go of the stick, opposite rudder).

I have had some dramas with the aero's in the fact that the aircraft does exactly what you tell it to do and I need to be a lot more accurate in my control inputs than with a Citabria or Tigermoth due to the responsiveness of the Pitts controls.

Anyway all responses greatly appreciated. Oh yeah, I have done a search on Pitts and whilst there is some info out there in previous posts I don't believe it is all together in one place nor covers the sorts of things I am after.

Cheers
CB

[Pitts2112]

Well, CB, I haven't got much time in the -2B specifically but I've just checked out in the -2A and have about 175 hours in the S-1D. You've got two things, at least, correct in your opening post:
1. The Pitts is a very honest airplane and it will do exactly what you tell it to, even if you didn't mean it
2. You'll get as many opinions about every aspect of flying the Pitts as there are Pitts pilots.

Here's what's worked for me. I tend to land the S-1 in a very aggressive sideslip. I find that she's under much better control and flares and rounds out more nicely when brought in steeply and at the right airspeed. 100mph on final, even in the S-2B, I'd have said is 5-10 mph too fast, but it is a slightly bigger airplane then the S-2A. For instance, in the S-1, I fly the approach at 90 mph in a balanced curve from abeam the numbers, at the 90 degree point I dip the wings level to have a check up final approach to make sure I haven't missed anyone, start a highly angled slip until crossing the hedge at about 85 mph. I'll hold the slip in as long as possible, right into the flare to bleed off the airspeed and she settles nicely and quite shortly, too. I've had my best landings using that technique. Long, flat approaches usually end up with me being too high, too low, or too fast, and without a good view of the runway. I'll often go around the circuit again from base if the only option is a long straight final.

There are probably much more knowledgable people on here with proper -2B experience who can give you better views, but if you want to talk more detail, drop me a PM and we can have a chat on the phone.

In any case, experiment. There's only one right way to land a Pitts and that's whatever way it takes so you can walk away and the airplane can be used again. Anything other than that is really fiddling around the edges.

Pitts2112

[HappyJack260]

I fly the red S-2C at Camden, so I'm guessing you're talking about the yellow and blue S-2B - VH-TKV, which I've also flown. There's not a great deal of difference in the landing technicque for either, and I have used both the sideslip and the steep level approach. I've now settled on the steep approach, following a curved downwind to finals continuous turn to keep the runway in sight, straightening out on very short finals. In either case you'll need to drop a wing for any cross-wind correction in the flare. The Pitts handles cross-winds quite nicely. I once did a landing in about 19 knots crosswind - the draggy form, power and control authority make it quite feasible, though I wouldn't want to do it every day.
There's been quite a lot of discussion on the studentpilot.com website about the merits of wheel landings in a Pitts but I just can't see the point. Tailwheel first gives you a high AoA and slows you down nicely, reducing the prospect of having enough lift remaining to send you up in the event of a bounce. Then stick hard back and keep it straight with footwork and peripeheral vision.
One thing about the Pitts is that you can never get enough landing practice. I know pilots with hundreds of hours on type who still confess to a certain frisson of nerves/excitement as they turn in from downwind, anticipating the landing - I know I experience that. And like they say, the landing is not over until it's back in the hangar....

[djpil]

100mph on final, even in the S-2B, I'd have said is 5-10 mph too fast, but it is a slightly bigger airplane then the S-2A.
Pitts2112
85 kts (100 mph) in the -B and 80 in the -A seems to make them happy.

[stiknruda]

Both techniques that you mention and 2112's all work well.

I have a few hundred hours in S1s and S2s (A/B/C)

Final in the B for me is 95/100 MPH (80/90 MPH one up in the A, 90MPH two up, 2112)

What determines how I choose to approach to land is an assessment of many things, the following being the big ticket ones:


the landing distance available
the surface
the wind
how busy is the environment

If I have acres of smooth tarmac and a non-challenging wind then 95/100mph on final and letting it run on with the tail 6-8" above the surface is fine. Occasionally she'll settle on the mains a second before the tail goes down but generally the tailwheel contacts first and then nanoseconds later the main gear contacts.

If the strip is short, bumpy and the gale is blowing at 90 degrees then I sideslipe to a fixed point on the runway, then depending on the length I start my flare and even occasionally flare/sideslip to plonk the wheels down, hopefully all 3 at the same time.

I try very hard never to get suckered into coming down the extended centre line because if you are slightly high over the threshold you can go blind. I prefer to run down an imaginary glideslope 15degrees left of the centre line but can manage to the right if I have to!

In the early days I'd recommend an immediate go-around from anything that you didn't like the look of .... but with experience you'll realise that the majority of these scenarios are perfectly recoverable.

The demo'd x-wind is 20mph but we've had 25kts across the strip and competition flying has gone on unchecked. Because the controls are so effective (powerful?) the aeroplane is good at handling pretty adverse conditions.

Just go, have fun and bring yourself, your pax and Curtis' wonderful creation safely back!

Stik

[rodthesod]

85 kts (100 mph) in the -B and 80 in the -A seems to make them happy.

It's a long time now since my 1000hrs in the S2A and I can't remember all the numbers, but 80 was far too slow for G-BADY by the time Neil W had finished with it and I got to fly it. It would roll off to the right at 70 when approaching a power-off stall, unlike others which would stall level as advertised at, I believe, c53.
I favoured an aggressive sideslip curving (carrier type) approach only straightening up for the 3-point landing. As previously reported you can carry plenty of excess speed this way and wash a lot off in the flare when you're still side-slipping. Speed in the final turn depended upon the degree of 'aggression' - from about 90 with relatively mild side-slip to 115-120 for a steep knife-edge approach. Other S2As could be flown safely slower, but my point is that I could still land as short or shorter than others in the R team at the time, despite carrying extra speed.
This technique worked very well for x-winds although, depending on circuit direction, it was sometimes necessary to reverse the side-slip on final to get the correct wing down - but this was good for look-out anyway.
The only time I did a long straight-in approach was at Sunderland in 1980 when a PK screw came loose and jammed my elevator just slightly aft of neutral and wouldn't budge. I found the speed that gave me a 3-point attitude with about 1/3 power and put myself on a final to maintain it - power maintained until ground contact - no problem.
The main thing is to get good instruction - all aeroplanes bite fools and the Pitts is no exception. I was largely self-taught on the Pitts after an RAF instructing background. It's only by reading these threads recently that I've heard of things like 'letting go of the stick' in spin recovery. I would never have thought of that. In the insanity of my youth (I was 36 at the time) my individual manoeuvre was a lomcevak which I entered from a 45 degree climbing left knife. Being No2 in the team I had little time to climb for energy so I pulled up from about 50ft and never got higher than 750ft before hitting it. By the time I'd had enough and recovered to the down vertical I was about 500ft agl. I executed about 150 of these on display and only 3 went wrong. On each occasion I was in the down vertical with neutral controls and the aircraft was 'rolling' uncommanded. The T&S was my saviour to tell me whether the spin was erect or inverted - as per RAF training I applied rudder to oppose the direction indicated by the turn needle - if that was opposing the visual turn I was 'erect' and vice versa. Worked every time so I'm here to tell you. (Maybe if I'd just let go of everything and then pushed the rudder pedal that 'drifted' up to me all would have been well - but how would I have known whether the spin was erect or inverted?)
Now I'm older I realise how stupid I was in those days. I'm a rare animal - an old bold pilot.
Happy safe aggressive flying to you.
rts

[djpil]

On each occasion I was in the down vertical with neutral controls and the aircraft was 'rolling' uncommanded.
rts
Thanks rod, a good reminder for young lads. The Pitts normally likes to depart into an inverted flat spin but that one you describe is particularly disorientating - or, at least it was for me the first time I encountered it, and I've rarely had a T&S to look at. I too wish the internet had existed back then, so easy to get info these days.

[stiknruda]

Rod,

The Beggs-Muller or Muller-Beggs Pitts spin recovery works regardless of whether you are inverted, errect or as Flossie can confirm in an upright inverted spin. He very assertively, pushed off an upline and felt it go as the stick was coming back... he then applied opposite rudder but things just got worse! He managed to cross it over before pulling the throttle closed with both hands and tramping on the heavy pedal. (How do I know? Cos as soon as he landed he got on the blower to tell me all about his latest excitement!)

Gene Beggs wrote a great book about it and Eric Muller included it in his tome. IIRC Muller's Pitts spin recovery was adopted bythe Ozzie Aviation authority. DJP, am I right?

It is quite mesmerizing watching the stick meander its way around the cockpit as you id the right pedal to press, it then "ticks" back into neutral and voila you are no longer spinning!

I know that it works in the Pitts Special as I've tried it errect and inverted.

I also know that it DOES NOT WORK In several other aircraft including the Chippie.


Stik

ps - I have been told to never Lomcevak my S2A as the hollow crank is susceptible and the propeller may part company! Interesting that you did so many, no mechanical problems?

[Cloud Basher]

Gentlemen (I assume it is all guys here for no real reason),
Thanks you very much for the info. This is exactly the sort of detailed info I was after. I have printed out what you have said and will read and ponder until there is no pondering left to be done.

Pitts2112,
As I gain some confidence (after another thousand hours or so) in the Pitts I will start to experiment with my landings and find what works for me. Actually after speaking with my instructor he will be going through all the various techniques you have all explaned here and I am sure there is more variations of the same that he intends to show me as well.

I am very comfortable with his instruction methods and whilst I am not picking it up as quickly as I would like I am about to devote a week off work to the fly and will do a couple of flights with him each day so hopefully the immersion in Pitts time will see me progressing better than my current rate.

I am also reading (and re-reading) Better Aerobatics by Alan Cassidy. very good book that goes right into the aerodynamics side as well as the Pilot side - being an aeronautical engineer I appreciate his in depth explanations. His explanations are helping me visualise the manoeuvres and along with my instructors explanations I think I have the thoery down pat. Just have to put it into practice.....

Again, thank you very much for sharing your hard earned (and expensive!!!) lessons and I will do my utmost to "have fun [not a problem!] and bring yourself [myself], your [my] pax and Curtis' wonderful creation safely back!"

Cheers
CB

[Pitts2112]

Sounds like a good approach. The Pitts takes some time to get used to so give yourself a break on how fast/slow you're picking things up. I think I had a few hours in it before I really had the guts to go out and try any real aerobatics. The handling is much more responsive than most other things out there and it will just take time to develop the touch. Take it slow and easy (especially with the throttle) and you'll get on just fine.

Just remember what Budd Davison says:
"There are Pitts Specials and there are other airplanes and the two should not be confused."

And he's absolutely right. The Pitts will spoil you for life regarding other airplanes, but it's a great place to be!

Good luck and have fun!

Pitts2112

[djpil]

Rod,
IIRC Muller's Pitts spin recovery was adopted bythe Ozzie Aviation authority. DJP, am I right?
There is a draft CAAP which includes text on the BM method - I can't see the text remaining as is because no-one in CASA has read anything other than magazine articles on the subject - a long way short of spin testing per the Advisory Circular which they'd need to support the current text. Still, I hope some appropriate guidance remains in the final version of the CAAP - particularly useful for Pitts pilots.
Of course, the CAAP emphasizes reference to spin recovery technique in the POH/AFM and in getting proper instruction.
Bill Finagin was here recently and convinced many of the effectiveness of his "FART" for the Pitts. Bill and I agreed that, in a panic situation, the BM would be only about 50% effective in identifying the correct rudder first time. i.e. I'd rather look for yaw rate than what the rudder pedal was doing.

[stiknruda]

DJP - I met Bill Finnagin at Ozark almost 2 years ago and we chatted about Pitts' in general. I am not familiar with his FART technique and would like to know more. Short of going to Maryland and flying with the Admiral where can I find out about it - (Google wasn't too helpful!)?

[djpil]

Stik, there was an article by Bill in a recent issue of Sport Aerobatics magazine, will see if I can find my copy.
There's also an article in the July 2005 newsletter of the Australian Aerobatic Club - Victorian Chapter - download it from the newsletter archives at http://vic.aerobatics.asn.au/

[Zulu Alpha]

Just remember what Budd Davison says:
"There are Pitts Specials and there are other airplanes and the two should not be confused."
And he's absolutely right. The Pitts will spoil you for life regarding other airplanes
Unless they're a Laser, One design, Extra, Edge or other modern aerobatic monoplane.... and now I'll duck while the bullets fly!!

[Pitts2112]

Unless they're a Laser, One design, Extra, Edge or other modern aerobatic monoplane.... and now I'll duck while the bullets fly!!

ZA,
From a performance perspective, you're absolutely right. But they're still not a Pitts. There's just something about a Pitts that tugs at your hearstrings like no other aerobatic aircraft can. I've been told by others with lots more experience in super-monoplanes than I that they will outperform a Pitts but they just haven't got the character that a Pitts has. And I'm inclined to agree. I suppose to those that understand that no explanation is necessary; to those that don't, no explanation is possible.

But you probably knew I'd say something like that, huh? :)

Pitts2112

[stiknruda]

Nicely put 2112 - I was just going to abuse ZA for his lack of taste!

Nothing quite like sitting behind 4 wings that perfectly frame the view ahead.

I'm a bipe-boy and very proud of it!

If ZA knew the fun that we all had on our annual Pitts Artists jaunts he'd probably upgrade to a Pitts, too!

[eharding]

Nicely put 2112 - I was just going to abuse ZA for his lack of taste!
Nothing quite like sitting behind 4 wings that perfectly frame the view ahead.
I'm a bipe-boy and very proud of it!
If ZA knew the fun that we all had on our annual Pitts Artists jaunts he'd probably upgrade to a Pitts, too!

My understanding is that if the various spouses knew about the agenda of the Pitts Artists jaunt, none of you would be allowed to go.... :E - we're going to give the MAXG delegate some stablisers this year though :)

Trouble is with Pitts vs Laser, you beat one only to find a different one taking the gold - have you boys got a union or something?

[Pitts2112]

My understanding is that if the various spouses knew about the agenda of the Pitts Artists jaunt, none of you would be allowed to go.... :E - we're going to give the MAXG delegate some stablisers this year though :)
Trouble is with Pitts vs Laser, you beat one only to find a different one taking the gold - have you boys got a union or something?
Union? No. We've got our very own god - Curtis Pitts. He looks after us from on high. If there are so many Pitts winning, doesn't that tell you something? The group hanging around Leicester, of which I am proud to claim a past membership, are known as The Pitts Mafia, so maybe there is some kind of organisation going on.

Agenda on the Pitts Artistes' Tour - why merely to further the fame of the type, surely? It has nothing to do with the nurses' convention which allegedly happened at the same time and place as the first escapade. And the rumours of the off-roading in the golf carts on the second are grossly exaggerated, I'm afraid, though I understand they're still trying to remove the tire tracks from the foyer of the chateau. Likewise reports of eye-level sightings of pinecones on initials to the run-and-break. Unfortunately last year's nightime aerobatics competition had to be cancelled as the chateau staff were unable to procure enough torches to provide adequate sighting lines. I'd recommend to any following in our footsteps to arrange adequate torches ahead of time to avoid disappointment.

This year we're exploring more a coastal theme, incorporating an aerial tribute to the Normandy landings. We've been unable to locate the nurses' convention location for this year, however, so may have to pass on that feature of the trip. At any rate, keep your ears and eyes open for a 10 ship Pitts formation departing Lydd sometime in mid Sept for pastures French.
Oh, by the way, has anyone told the MAXG rep that newbies buy all the beer for their first trip? It's kind of an initiation tradition. I say "tradition"; it's more like something we've just incorporated this year. Next year, though, it'll be a tradition.

Pitts2112
Red Ops Planning

[Zulu Alpha]

Well I know there are some advantages to Pitts's...several spare ailerons in case any get damaged!!

I do have 20 hrs in Pitts S2A/Bs and I did learn a lot, and it was great fun but it didn't spoil me for life. It just prepared me for monoplanes.

On a slightly serious note, there was a great article about landing high performance aerobatic aircraft in Pilot a year or two ago. Written by Alan Cassidy it explained exactly what was different. One point he made is that you cannot do a full stall landing because the tail would be too low. Therefore he recomended a steep flared approach with an agressive straightening and rounding out. This works very well, even in the Laser which is a doddle to land compared to a Pitts. It means the landing can be done in 350mtrs if you are accurate, whereas a low approach floats for ever. It also works well in a crosswind as there is less time floating/drifting.

Anyone care to elucidate on the FART technique!

[eharding]

I was of course referring to the "Union of Laser Operatives and Oil Measurement Device Consultants" rather than the Pitts brotherhood, which is more on the lines of a Guild of Craftsmen than anything so mundane as a union.

I'll make sure the MAXG driver is fully briefed, and that he doesn't forget his wallet....

[Pitts2112]

the Pitts brotherhood, which is more on the lines of a Guild of Craftsmen than anything so mundane as a union.


Clearly you are an enlightened one who understands. You will be welcome within the brotherhood. :)

Pitts2112
Red Ops Planning

May I suggest a renaming to the "Craftsmens' Guild of Pitts Artistes"?

[eharding]

Well I know there are some advantages to Pitts's...several spare ailerons in case any get damaged!!

Cough - the lower right is now officially "Simon's", the lower left "Luke's" - which leaves me the choice of either upper aileron - which, on reflection, managing to scrape either of those down the runway would be a 'Denny Dobson eat your heart out' affair.

[Pitts2112]

I do have 20 hrs in Pitts S2A/Bs and I did learn a lot, and it was great fun but it didn't spoil me for life. It just prepared me for monoplanes.


Not to fear, ZA. You'll come back one day...:)

Pitts2112
Red Ops Planning

[Zulu Alpha]

May I suggest a renaming to the "Craftsmens' Guild of Pitts Artistes"?
I should imagine that if you're buying the beer you can call it whatever you want!!

Enough of this fun Pitts baiting...I'm off to my bed.

[Flyingcircusace]

Ed

Just as long as they are tighten up now????????

You know it makes sense.....

The best bit about Pittses is watching them land at Connington in a strong crosswind. Should be on TV...........Set to the theme tune of those magnificent men....

Go on try a monoplane, you know you want to......

[eharding]

Ed
Just as long as they are tighten up now????????
You know it makes sense.....
The best bit about Pittses is watching them land at Connington in a strong crosswind. Should be on TV...........Set to the theme tune of those magnificent men....
Go on try a monoplane, you know you want to......

Aye - those Frickin' Lasers are great - you should get one, you know.... :E

Coming to Fenland?

[Flyingcircusace]

Frickin Laser, probably more to do with the studied concentration from its pilot, talent and application, how dull.........

Seriously sort those ailerons out............

Unable Fenland, but Tiger should be a go.

Now the S2B, horrible......