Atlantic Ferry - Safety Pilot

[VORTIME]

Hi folks,

Are there any members out there who are ferrying an aircraft from US->UK that require a safety pilot for the trip? Any ideas how one might go about getting on such a trip with someone experienced on the atlantic route?

Thanks
VT

[Jinkster]

I'd do it - as PiC never done one before - how hard can it be.....

:ok:

[planecrazy.eu]

Well this is not really related but i did the same thing with cars in America, deliverying a car from one state to another. The brokers use a company so i assume that there must be an agency that deals with over-seas delivery of aircraft. Maybe the FAA has a list or info on it?

[Dan Winterland]

I'd do it - as PiC never done one before - how hard can it be.....
:ok:


How hard can it be? I hope that was intended to be a frivolous statement!

I've crossed the Atlantic many times and only once with less than 4 engines - and I wasn't happy with that. And having personally been involved with two SAR missions involving GA aircraft in trouble over the North Atlantic, my advice is....

DON'T DO IT!

BTW, both aircraft were never found.

[Longbow55]

It is amazing to listen and read what people say, they fly GA aircraft every day, but when you talk about something like this, OH no don't do it, they make it sound like they are the most unreliable plane in the sky (They are not) and it takes planning, the number one statistic is weather then fuel as to why people don't make it across (all Pilot induced). Mechanical doesn't even fit in the picture that is like 1-3%.

Now to the question, There are companies that do it regularly, but do not know if they allow someone to come along, do a search. and I may be doing the trip again next year for my flight club.

[airborne_artist]

DW - I suggest you have a chat with Polly Vacher. She's been round the world twice in her single-engined a/c, and was very much alive to tell the tales at her 40th wedding anniversary party in June. Her dress matched her black and orange a/c paint scheme. How cool is that?

FWIW she didn't even start learning to fly until she was in her 40s. Hope for us all :ok:

[dublinpilot]

Ah come on guys! Read the question.

VORTIME isn't asking is it sensible or safe. They aren't asking for advice on doing the trip. They aren't asking if they should attempt it themselves.

What they ARE asking why they might get a right hand seat on such a trip?

Why do people insist on answering a question that wasn't asked?

[Crosswind Limits]

Knowing Jinkster it was probably genuine! :uhoh:

Back to the question would suggest a post in the flyer forums. This sort of thing is done almost on a daily basis by some people and that maybe a good place to start. A guy called 2donkeys who sometimes posts on pprune has done it at least once in a single. Flyingfemme I believe is a professional ferry pilot. It is an extremely serious undertaking requiring a lot of detailed planning for equipment and contingencies. There is no doubt it is a dangerous and challenging undertaking but one that is obviously achievable in the right hands and circumstances.

Personally I would never cross the Atlantic in a single or multi unless the other pilot was experienced in these missions or was a competent instrument pilot who had planned the trip in great detail. As someone said earlier weather is the biggest factor - if your destinations and alternates go below approach minima you don't have too many choices in Greenland or Iceland and turning back may not be an option! Mechanical failure is possible but unlikely providing the aeroplane is thoroughly overhauled beforehand.

Having said all this I think it would be a lot of fun to plan and then undertake, providing everything worked of course! :)

[mm_flynn]

VORTIME,
I think your success may depend on why you are doing it. There seems to be a very small fraternity of people who do transatlantic ferrying. If you are interested in building experience so you can bring your own plane across I would have thought you can get a lot of help. On the other hand if you are building experience to go into the business of ferrying you might find the 'free teaching for competitors' to be limited.
My experience was that to get insurance (which you have to have for Iceland I think) you or your safety pilot must have made about 5 crossings in a similar class of aircraft. You also, for all practical purposes need a full IR.
Crosswind is right that flyingfemme runs a ferry business that routinely moves aircraft across the Atlantic. When I crossed I had 2Donkeys with me - however, I think he is swamped with real work.
If you get a chance it is a fantastic experience. My only regret is I couldn't take a bit more time doing it.

[VORTIME]

Hi MM_Flynn,

I've no interest in commercial flying - have my own business which is more than enough work :) I fly for leisure and would like to gain experience on "real flights" so eventually I'd have the confidence to fly my own aircraft to south Europe where I have some interests.

Cheers
VT

[mm_flynn]

VORTIME,

The flyer forum and PPLIR both have people who fairly routinely offer a spare seat for other pilots to experience the trip. Often it is a business trip that the pilot is flying alone and is therefore happy for company. There are also flyins posted where people are offering spare seats. There is a group of aircraft planning to go to Morocco this autumn for example on Flyer.

The North Atlantic crossing is very different from European flying (like no one to talk to, no radar coverage, no land, limited alternative fields, long straight lines, etc.)

[IO540]

With a decent tourer, the flying will be plain boring. It's the planning that takes the time. Understanding weather data and where to get it, for one. Then, be prepared to fly high up, any decent IFR rourer can do 18000ft+ and you will need oxygen, and quite a lot of it. Plus emergency equipment. Plus a satellite phone, naturally.

I've never done this but I gather a full IR is highly desirable, due to the Class A limiting the altitude options severely. I believe Polly Vacher did most or all of her flying under IFR flight plans, and having been around Europe a bit myself I don't blame her. VFR is fun but is pure masochism. She also has a long range plane, with an autopilot obviously. With that sort of mission capability, going around the world boils down to planning and some mind-bending logistics; the flying is just ..... flying a plane.

Going to Morrocco will be a piece of cake. Zoom down to Spain and then one more easy leg. Fax the airfield(s) in Morrocco for any special requirements (like fuel, permits), well in advance.

For a really serious piece of logistics, read about Simon Oliphant-Hope's astonishing helicopter flight around the world. He spend US$ 60,000 just "paying his way through" Russia. He had a full time virtually around the clock support man back home, and satellite comms.

[mm_flynn]

With a decent tourer, the flying will be plain boring. It's the planning that takes the time. Understanding weather data and where to get it, for one.

Its not at all boring. You have constant activity
1 - Study ever single menu option on each of your avionics
2 - Set up schedules on the GNS 530 to tell you to change tanks, do your ops normal check, start a new pool on which airline will next say 'you got the score' or 'how's the ride'
3 - Turn your obs needle another degree to reflect the arc of your Great Circle Route
4 - call up friendly airlines/biz jets for a relay on the hour to let Gander know you still aren't swimming.


but most importantly sit back in glorious isolation knowing no one at work can get a hold of you and you can just soak up the majesty of the Ocean and the Greenland glaciers

[Dan Winterland]

DW - I suggest you have a chat with Polly Vacher. :

Actually, I have spoken to her (I used to fly with her son in Virgin Atlantic). She's an incredible lady and my comments should in no way decry her acheivements. But she did her flights as record attempts and I'm convinced she was aware of the high risks she was taking.

And that is where the problems in flying the North Atlantic in a GA aircraft lie - the risk. The distances are considerable, the weather changebale and unpredictable and the conditions for survival are poor.

I used to fly the North Atlantic in RAF jets which had Autocat - a system which would retransmit a recieved frequency on another radio simultaneously. This was very useful for Shanwick and Gander who used us a lot to communicate to ferry pilots who had lost contact on their often poor jury rigged HF sets. We would often chat to the pilots who were usually very glad of the company. On two occaisions these relays ended up in rescue scenarios. One pilot in a single was having problems transferring fuel from a ferry tank. There was a strong smell of fuel in the cockpit and it is possible he was overcome by fumes. In any event, he just disappered. Another was a twin who just stopped transmitting. Again, lost with no trace.

I remember speaking to a ferry pilot in the briefing room at a Noth East Canadian airfield. He commented that we were looking a little overdressed preparing for a flight across the ocean in a four engined jet with ejector seats and dingies as we struggled in our immersion suits. He mentioned that his survival equipment consisted of a 'quickdon' immersion suit and a dingy on the back seat of the aircraft. I pointed out that our chances of a rescue should anything happen were remote (my opinion based on my qualification as a survival and rescue training officer) - but his were non existant. And he was flying a single.

The 'quickdon' is anything but quick (five minutes at least) and trying to put that on in a sinking aircraft is just not feasible. With water temperatures of less than ten degrees for most of the year in the North Atlantic, and often much colder - if your not in your dingy within a minute or two - it's probably over!

It's just not worth the risk IMHO.