Who was the top scoring WWII Fighter Pilot - Johnie Johnson or Pat Pattle?

[Dundiggin']

Although JJ's scores were confirmed kills, Pat Pattle had many more albeit unconfirmed kills and all before May '41, mostly in the Gladiator but some in the Hurricane. He was a true legend. Does anyone have any more gen?

[Wholigan]

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_pattle.htm

[Biggus]

I remember reading about Pat Pattle as a teenager, but I think it was one chapter in a fairly typical 'fighter pilots of the RAF' type paperback.

I seem to remember that in the case of Pattle nobody was sure exactly what his score was. Many of the records were either destroyed/lost or not kept properly in the retreat from Greece and other hectic moments.

By the way, before somebody else points it out, you should have had RAF somewhere in your title. I believe Erich Hartmann (not sure if spelling is correct) got about 350 kills in WWII.

352 actually - http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html

[Dundiggin']

Thanks Wholigan - what a fantastic read!! They were brave boys.........

[stevfire2]

there was a paperback book about pat pattle. i have it somewhere, i am sure the title was "ace of aces". it would be 30 odd years old now, but its a very good book.

[Archimedes]

Chris Shores and Clive Williams' Aces High, which is the nearest thing there is to a 'bible of RAF 'ace' pilots' credits Pattle with around 50 victories and two shared, while Johnson is given 34 victories and seven shared.

As Biggus says, record keeping was a little lax in the Greek campaign (for obvious reasons...) and most of the paperwork was dumped into Piraeus (IIRC) Harbour during the evacuation. I think it's generally accepted, thanks to piecing together reports from Pattle's colleagues, that Pattle scored more than Johnson, and is a far less controversial issue than who the top-scoring RFC/RAF pilot was in WW1....

[stevfire2]

ace of aces by e c r baker, e- bay item no 270016343331
get in quick!:ok:

[doubledolphins]

Seem to recall that some chap by the name of "Hans-Jochim Marseils" (ok, spelling was never my strong point.)flying 109s was top. The choice of identities of the model I built in the 60s was his or Adolf Galland's. Ginger Lacey was definately top RAF pilot in the Battle of Britain. Rumour has it he was sent to a less than target rich enviroment for the rest of the war to stop him being top RAF "ace".

[clicker]

Ginger Lacey was definately top RAF pilot in the Battle of Britain. Rumour has it he was sent to a less than target rich enviroment for the rest of the war to stop him being top RAF "ace".

Did he upset someone then?

[SASless]

Hartmann 352
Barkhorn 301
Rall 275
Kittel 267
Nowotny 258
Galland 104 All on the Western front
Lang.....18 in one day

[doubledolphins]

wow, I stand corrected!
I think the Lacy buisiness was down to his being a Sgt pilot during the battle and a bit of a "Rough Diamond". He finished the war a Squadron Leader and returned to flying instructing. JEJ retired with Air rank.

[Archimedes]

Hans-Joachim Marseille might have been the top scorer if he'd lived long enough. He racked up a high score in North Africa, but was killed with a tally of 158 in September '42. His Bf109 suffered a fault and the cockpit filled with smoke; he bailed out, struck the tailplane and was either killed instantly or knocked unconscious and thus couldn't deploy his parachute.

His score is open to question, though - I forget the precise details, but there is a debate over whether he falsified victories (claim made by a distinguished RAF veteran, I forget which); whether he had victories falsified for him by Goebbels for propaganda purposes (forget the source for that one) or whether some claims stemmed from the usual cause of confusion (aircraft dives away apparently out of control and streaming smoke but actually got home safely, etc, etc).

[SASless]

Lacey appears to have scored 30 confirmed victories and three probables....and was transferred to India in March 1943.

[GeeRam]

Ginger Lacey was definately top RAF pilot in the Battle of Britain.

No he wasn't.

Eric Lock with a score of 21, was the highest scoring RAF pilot during the 'offical' Battle of Britain period.

James Lacey was second highest with a score of 18.

[walter kennedy]

Hans-Joachim Marseille had another distinction I think - he was reputed to have only engaged fighters - anyone know if this was true?

[GeeRam]

Hans-Joachim Marseille had another distinction I think - he was reputed to have only engaged fighters - anyone know if this was true?

Not quite, but very close, although how accurate the following is I don't know, but according to some sources, of his score of 158, 151 were in North Africa, and 7 on the Channel Front, and of the 151 North African victories, only 4 were twin-engined bombers, the rest being single-engined fighters (101 x P-40's, 30 x Hurricanes and 16 x Spitfires)

[superserong]

Anyone remember how many Sailor Malan got during BoB? Think it was 27...but not sure.

Cheers

ss

[GeeRam]

Anyone remember how many Sailor Malan got during BoB? Think it was 27...but not sure.

See post #14......nowhere near 27.;)
Malan didn't even make the top 10 RAF scorers during the BofB.
Damn good boss though by all accounts, and his contribution to the winning of the Battle was far more than merely scoring a few more than some of the other pilots.

[Brain Potter]

I recently read an interesting history of the BoB which contained an account of the contrasting RAF and Luftwaffe attitude to scores. In the RAF keeping a personal tally was officially frowned upon and also regarded as "bad form" by sqn colleagues. I guess this accounts for very little publicity such as painting of multple killl markings on aircraft. The whole thing was regarded as a team effort and a kill had to be independently confirmed to receive a credit. Conversely, the Luftwaffe Aces were given huge official backing and the whole wing (geschwader?) was set up so that the likes of Molders, Galland and Wick could add to their personal score. It seems that there was a much less rigourous requirement to confirm claims. The book recounted quite a lot of bitterness from the ordinary pilots that they were just cannon-fodder, often acting as bait to create opportunities for the star pilots. Anyway, they lost.:)

[GeeRam]

In the RAF keeping a personal tally was officially frowned upon and also regarded as "bad form" by sqn colleagues. I guess this accounts for very little publicity such as painting of multple killl markings on aircraft. The whole thing was regarded as a team effort and a kill had to be independently confirmed to receive a credit.

Evidence would suggest that's not quite true. Plenty of photo evidence of 'kill' markings on RAF fighters during the Battle. However, it is correct to say that 'officialdom' didn't seek out and praise individual pilots for propaganda purposes, and by and large apart from one or two names, the general public where largely ignorant of who was leading scorer or whatever.

Conversely, the Luftwaffe Aces were given huge official backing and the whole wing (geschwader?) was set up so that the likes of Molders, Galland and Wick could add to their personal score.

It's certainley true that the Reich propaganda machine went into overdrive and 'fuelled' the scoring race between Galland and co, with the Experten feited like todays football 'stars' with the issue of personally signed photocards being produced etc.
However, it wrong to say the whole Geschwaders was set-up for one individual, rather individual squadrons within the Geschwader, which is why you will seen an even split with a 4 or 5 high scoring senior pilots from each Geschwader. There was still a good number of Luftwaffe NCO pilots that scored well during the Battle, such as Werner Machold and Heinz Bar.

It seems that there was a much less rigourous requirement to confirm claims.

That myth has been proved to be untrue numerous times, in fact in many ways, the Luftwaffe requirement exceeded that of the Allies.

[brakedwell]

I met Ginger Lacey in the early 80's when he visited the flight deck of our Air Europe 737 during a flight from Newcastle or Teeside to the Med. He told us he was CFI at his local flying club. A genuinely nice guy. On the other hand JEJ was a real s***t when he used to fly with me in Aden.

[SASless]

Have you ever met a FJ pilot that was not "competitive"? At least none that are worth a darn. You can bet the BoB pilots were keeping tabs....there may have been some strong class envy about...My Squadron over your Squadron, Spits over Hurri's , officers over Sgt's, Brits over everyone else.

[Brain Potter]

I've found the book I was reading - The Most Dangerous Enemy by Stephen Bungay and here are some quotes.

Ref Luftwaffe:

"At the margin some of the most sucessful gave the impression that they were after their own glory rather than the success of the unit, and the view became widespread that some of them were building their scores at the expense of protecting wingmen, the poor old "Katshmareks". Ulrich Steinhilper [Luftwaffe veteran] reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:

The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by NCOs who felt more aggrieved than officers. Why was it they asked, that decorations are in the main handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.
The book explains that RAF honours were input driven ie for courage/service - whether or not militarily effective. The Luftwaffe awards were output driven ie on total score. Aces seeking to have a Knights' Cross plus Oak Leaves, Diamonds around their necks etc were said to be suffering from a "sore throat".

The book also relates how the pressure to score drove some Luftwaffe pilots to dishonesty and tells how one famous German ace returned from combat claiming 3 Spitfires, but his groundcrew discovered that his guns had not been fired. His score went up, but his standing fell as the tale went round. I am sure our fighter pilots were competitive men , but I have not detected in any book that they were competing with each other for high scores. I think Sailor Malan even advocated allowing shot up bombers to make it home - reasoning that their arrival with dead and wounded on board would affect the morale of the other crews. From what I have read the only RAF BoB pilot who seemed to have been using the opportunity to push personal advancement was Douglas Bader.

Anyway I can thoroughly recommend the book - as well as Fighter Boys by Patrick Bishop and for a personal account First Light by Geoffrey Wellum.

[GeeRam]

Ulrich Steinhilper [Luftwaffe veteran] reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:
[INDENT][I]The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by NCOs who felt more aggrieved than officers. Why was it they asked, that decorations are in the main handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.

Not a good example to make a generalisation about the Jagdflieger during the Battle of Britain as JG52 was the least successful unit with the shortest duration in action before being withdrawn the earliest. Steinhilper wasn't alone in his views.
In actual fact, JG52 was the only Geschwader NOT to have a pilot win the Knights Cross during the Battle of Britain period......;)

The book also relates how the pressure to score drove some Luftwaffe pilots to dishonesty and tells how one famous German ace returned from combat claiming 3 Spitfires, but his groundcrew discovered that his guns had not been fired. His score went up, but his standing fell as the tale went round. I am sure our fighter pilots were competitive men , but I have not detected in any book that they were competing with each other for high scores.
Pierre Clostermann is one I can immediately think off ;)
From what I have read the only RAF BoB pilot who seemed to have been using the opportunity to push personal advancement was Douglas Bader.

Yup.
One of the reasons, Malan's standing is that much higher, along with Crossley, Lane, Kent, Townsend, Tuck, McKellar, Finlay etc.

The Luftwaffe awards were output driven ie on total score. Aces seeking to have a Knights' Cross plus Oak Leaves, Diamonds around their necks etc were said to be suffering from a "sore throat".

Not strictly true, if that was the case, how would the Bomber pilots and Stuka pilots etc be awarded KC's, or even Fallshrimjager..?
Fighter pilots generally were awarded the KC's dependent on score, but not exclusively. It was just their way of doing things. There were however, plenty of exceptions.
The only award of the Reich's highest award, the Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds was awarded to Stuka pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

[Brain Potter]

Clearly this Katschmarek has been soundly defeated by an Experten on the topic. :ok:

I was just recounting an impression picked up, rightly or wrongly, by some recent holiday reading. I thought Bungay's book was excellent and casts new light on the story I thought I knew. I came away with the impression that Bader and Leigh-Mallory were appalling self-serving opportunists (they might have done well today) and that the real winner and hero of the battle was Keith Park. He deserves more credit than he got - a statue/memorial in the UK perhaps?

[air pig]

Luftwaffe 'aces' had far greater chance of a high kill tally as they served continously in not having a 'tour' to serve, attacks against at least initially against air forces, who were technically inferior. This last point is in equipment, control and detection of enemy aircraft. Some of the Luftwaffe aces carried over scores from the Spanish Civil War. Numerous fighter aces also derived the vast majority of their kills at night, against the RAF bomber offensive, Major H-W Schnaufer is one such pilot with 121 kills.

Continuous service and the way Luftwaffe squadrons where set up and controlled allowed opportunity to the best, at least until they were shot down. Adolf Galland started the war a squadron commander and ended the war as a squadron commander, having achieved high rank. At the end he flew Me 262s in command of JV 44, having flown the aircraft in 1942 at he behest of Prof Willi Messerschmidt.

Gerhard Barkhorn, served in the reformed Luftwaffe and retired a general, having been on the P 1127 trials squadron at West Rayham, and is rumoured to have ejected from one.

[Archimedes]

IIRC, Barkhorn didn't eject, but cut the throttle early while making a vertical landing, and the undercarriage wasn't quite tough enough to take the impact that resulted. He was very embarrassed, and muttered something about this being the 302nd Allied aircraft he'd destroyed...

[GeeRam]

and that the real winner and hero of the battle was Keith Park. He deserves more credit than he got

How true, Park was treated quite badly afterwards, although many would argue that Dowding was as much the architect of the victory as any, with the help of a great slice of good luck.

[BillHicksRules]

Dear all,

Who was the highest scoring non-German ace?

Cheers

BHR

[GeeRam]

Dear all,
Who was the highest scoring non-German ace?
Cheers
BHR

Pretty sure it's Eino Ilmari Juutilainen of the Finnish AF with a score of 94.

[Archimedes]

I think you're right. The Japanese leading ace, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa is credited by some sources with possibly scoring over 100, but most put his tally somewhere in the 80s. The Japanese appear to have been very lax in keeping records of who shot down what and when, so a lot would seem to be guesswork for them.

[air pig]

AVM Park with Wing Commander Woodall ( Station Commander RAF Duxford and sector controller) at the time of the Battle of Britain if I remeber correctly directed the air defence of Malta in 1941 and 42. Very few air commanders have directed a succesful air defence against a sophisicated enemy and have been successful. ACM Dowding was treated terribly following the Battle of Britain by the Air Staff establishment. This I feel due to the fact that he spoke his mind over the defence of France in 1940 in not allowing any more aircarft to be sent over the channel.

To get back to the original thread subject Johnnie Johnson was the top scoring RAF ace according to most records.

My thanks to Archiemedies, I did think General Barkhorn stepped over the side with a little help from Martin baker, rather than putting the P 1127 on the ground and to coin a phrase 'run away bravely'

One of the few aces to have flown in three wars and I believe have kills in each was Robin Olds, retired general USAF.

[henry crun]

Johnny Kent was not shy about self promotion.

When he was staish at Tangmere, the station flight Meteor 8 had JAK in large black letters on each side of the fuselage.

In the 1950's there were quite a lot of books about the BofB being published.
He insisted on having first loan of those bought for the mess libary, and they would be returned with his amendment notes in the margins. :)

[SASless]

We had a "Vietnamese" Ace in one of my US Army helicopter units.....seems he had written off six OH-6A's without help from the Vietnamese thus we felt he should have qualified for that status.:{

[walter kennedy]

GeeRam
<< The only award of the Reich's highest award, the Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds was awarded to Stuka pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel.>>
I knew a Hungarian pilot, George (lived in Perth, passed away recently) who was a Sqn Ldr (equivalent) under Rudel at one stage. This should give an idea of what these guys went through to get top honours – George had a tally of 5 Soviet tanks – he told me Rudel had taken out several hundred – apparently he approached them very, very closely – “right on top of them” as George put it. I think they were using Stukas with large (40mm?) cannon fitted (he described the shaking when firing very colourfully) – I don’t think they carried many rounds.
.
On both sides there were many very brave men.

[Archimedes]

Walter - Rudel got 519 tanks, a Soviet ship (or perhaps two) over 700 trucks and is alleged to have scored 9 air-air victories by one source I've seen, (although in a Ju-87, this seems a tad unlikely...They were probably scored when he dabbled with flying the Fw190, I guess). He was also shot down 32 times.

[Dundiggin']

On the other hand JEJ was a real s***t when he used to fly with me in Aden.
Hi Brakedwell,
What did you used to fly in Aden? I was there but not flying and I heard that JEJ had so abused his post (AOC?) that he was sacked. Something about flying garden plants in from E Africa for his garden in Aden and Andovers to fly home in to UK.
Please tell us more.......:E

The whole point of this web was to show that JEJ was not the top RAF ace but Pat Pattle was......

[FlightDetent]

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/frantis/frantis.htm

[GeeRam]

The whole point of this web was to show that JEJ was not the top RAF ace but Pat Pattle was......
Agreed.
The trouble is many of the immediate post-war myths and erroneous information becomes difficult to eradicate as it’s still out there.
Pat Pattle is without question the RAF’s top scoring ‘ace’ of WW2, and while his exact final tally is subject to question to within 2 or 3, it’s clearly more than JEJ.
JEJ was the leading scoring British RAF pilot, and also the top scoring Allied pilot in the North West European theatre of ops.
I knew a Hungarian pilot, George (lived in Perth, passed away recently) who was a Sqn Ldr (equivalent) under Rudel at one stage. This should give an idea of what these guys went through to get top honours – George had a tally of 5 Soviet tanks – he told me Rudel had taken out several hundred – apparently he approached them very, very closely – “right on top of them” as George put it. I think they were using Stukas with large (40mm?) cannon fitted (he described the shaking when firing very colourfully) – I don’t think they carried many rounds..
On both sides there were many very brave men.
I think the most astonishing Rudel statistic is the fact that he flew just over 2,500 missions, which is quite astonishing in a high risk GA environment. And he returned to ops even after having to have a lower leg amputated below the knee after being shot down in Feb 45. And after the war he was an accomplished skier and mountaineer. It’s alleged (don’t know if it’s true) that his advise was sort out during the development of the A-10. Of course, his continued post war Nazi sympathies taint somewhat his undoubted military accomplishments.
Johnny Kent was not shy about self promotion.
When he was staish at Tangmere, the station flight Meteor 8 had JAK in large black letters on each side of the fuselage.
Interesting, I’ve not come across many anecdotes about Kent’s post war service.
One of the few aces to have flown in three wars and I believe have kills in each was Robin Olds, retired general USAF.
3 wars…?
Olds flew in WW2 and scored 12 or 13 victories IIRC, and later flew the F-4 in Vietnam scoring a further 4 victories, just missing out achieving ‘ace’ status in 2 separate conflicts.
Olds missed out on Korea, as he was on exchange with the RAF at the time as boss of 1 Sqn at Tangmere.

[chiglet]

Ginger Lacey was my pay Officer at RAF Patrington in the late '60s. He was a Flt Lt, but retired as a Sqn Ldr. Unfortunately, I was on leave when he retired. I believe that the "Fly Past" was something to behold :ok:
watp,iktch

[Brewster Buffalo]

AVM Park with Wing Commander Woodall ( Station Commander RAF Duxford and sector controller) at the time of the Battle of Britain if I remeber correctly directed the air defence of Malta in 1941 and 42. Very few air commanders have directed a succesful air defence against a sophisicated enemy and have been successful. ACM Dowding was treated terribly following the Battle of Britain by the Air Staff establishment. This I feel due to the fact that he spoke his mind over the defence of France in 1940 in not allowing any more aircarft to be sent over the channel.

.....

I can recommend "The Battle of Britain - new perspectives" by John Ray a book that goes behind the scenes regarding Dowding, Park, Leigh-Mallory and the controversies of the BoB..

[walter kennedy]

Archimedes
Actually, George said Rudel had got 500 ish tanks - I thought at the time he may have been exagerrating.
Thanks for the info.
Walter

[corsair]

I noted that JEJ as top scoring British RAF pilot 'only' got 38 kills and he survived the war. Pattle clearly got more but with the loss of records. But I was surprised to see the Brendan 'Paddy' Finucane comes joint third alongside Malan with 32 kills. Malan survived the war. Finucane was shot down and killed by ground fire in 1942 aged only 21.

If he had lived no doubt Finucane could have matched Pattle by the end of the war. Of course if Pattle lived who knows what his score would have been.

Of course others may have matched those scores but who ended up as POW's.

[GeeRam]

I noted that JEJ as top scoring British RAF pilot 'only' got 38 kills and he survived the war. Pattle clearly got more but with the loss of records. But I was surprised to see the Brendan 'Paddy' Finucane comes joint third alongside Malan with 32 kills. Malan survived the war. Finucane was shot down and killed by ground fire in 1942 aged only 21.


Finucane scored 26 with 6 shared destroyed and was killed in Jun 1942.

Malan scored 27 with 7 shared destroyed, his last scores being in Jun 1941 a full year before Finucane was killed.

Malan ceased operational flying in August 1941, and yet by the end of the war he was still the highest scoring pilot of RAF Fighter Command...:ok:
Tuck scored 27 with 2 shared, and Lacey also scored 27 with Fighter Command, only Malan's extra shared scores put him at the top of Fighter Command's list.
JEJ for example, scoring the majority of his score while on operations with 2nd TAF.

[Chugalug2]

Not a mention made yet of Bob Doe, the highest scoring (14), surviving, Battle of Britain pilot. Still willing to do a piece to camera for such items as the revelation that the Royal Navy won the Battle! Modest as ever he explained the final pre ops training required him to fire his guns at the North Sea. "I managed to hit it", he explained with some pride! :)