"Lufthansa readbacks"

[jtor]

What's the point in "Lufthansa readbacks"? I've heard many times that they START the readback with their callsign - isn't it pretty confusing when nearly every one else ends the readback with callsign. Who does instruct starting the readback "wrong"?

"Lufthansa 1VM, right heading 210."
"Lufthansa 1VM, turning right heading 210."

"KLM 1771, right heading 210."
"Right heading 210, KLM 1771."

[zed3]

Both are surely clear enough ?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Presumably some recent ruling resulted in this posting? Otherwise I can't see any problem. Giving the callsign first or last does not effect the readback...

I think I worked with Lufthansa crews for around 36 years and honestly never noticed that they were any different in this respect. What I will say is that they were damned good to work with....

[sabenaboy]

Lufthansa used to, and perhaps still train their pilots, to readback what the pilot has dialed in and then no further confirmation is done among the pilots.

They have been told to start the readback with the callsign in order to give time to the other crewmember to dial the numbers in the FCU.

So a LH pilot starts his readback with the callsign and then reads the heading and/or the altitude he sees in the corresponding windows of the FCU.

Sabenaboy

[VATCO]

Certainly in the UK CAP 413 states it should be done as below:

Continuation of Communications
The placement of the callsigns of both the aircraft and the ground station within an established RTF exchange should be as follows:
Ground to Air: Aircraft callsign – message or reply.

Air to Ground:
a) Initiation of new information/request etc. – Aircraft callsign then message;
b) Reply – Repeat of pertinent information/readback/acknowledgement then aircraft callsign.
Of course other countries have their own way of doing things at times !!!

[rolaaand]

Can't say i've ever noticed this!Maybe i will now that it has been brought up.As long as all the information and the callsign is read back in a manner that makes it unambiguous then it's fine by me. To be honest I find DLH one of the easiest airlines to work with,always professional and polite and with a near perfect level of English in an easy to understand accent.
What bothers me more is the increasing number of readbacks I get without a callsign attached at all! This is extremely common when transferring someone to another frequency-and is becoming more common when issuing control instructions.

[DBate]

It is in fact Lufthansa company policy to start the readback with the callsign, and all pilots at LH are trained that way.

One reason is indeed - as sabenaboy mentioned - to give the PF time to set the new HDG/Alt. etc. in the FCU, and then do the readback from the FMA (or rather check the new setting on the FMA), thus making sure that the PF indeed made the correct settings.

Regards,
DBate

[begbie]

Can't say i've ever noticed this!Maybe i will now that it has been brought up.As long as all the information and the callsign is read back in a manner that makes it unambiguous then it's fine by me. To be honest I find DLH one of the easiest airlines to work with,always professional and polite and with a near perfect level of English in an easy to understand accent.
.

I hadn't noticed this either until a colleague pointed it out! Totally agree with your view of the lufty crews, always proffesional and typically efficient! (especially the A300 drivers out of heathrow with their "exceptional climb rate" that they offer!!)

[Dani]

I agree, LH is the only airline really sticking to the correct procedure (in Europe). In Asia there are a few others.

We all have to admit it: We first read back the message because it's easier, so we don't forget it. Sometimes it's hard brain work to remember 3 or even 4 to 5 different information at the same time.

Dani

[London Mil]

and of course the Germans actually speak better English (grammatically) than the English:)

[sabenaboy]

I agree, LH is the only airline really sticking to the correct procedure (in Europe).
Dani
What do you mean by that, Dani? Are you talking about this phraseology procedure or are you talking about something else?
I thought it was standard, correct procedure to readback the instructions first, followed by the callsign. (As VATCO already pointed out)

When "my" current airline started, we used this LH procedure, as well. None of the pilots really liked it. The SOP's changed again when EBBR ATC started complaining about this procedure. We are now back to callsign last, with reading out loud the cleared level after the radio communication + confirmation by the PNF. Is much easier, in my opinion.

Regards,
Erasmus

[2 sheds]

Giving the callsign first or last does not effect the readback...

Except that if the callsign is placed first, it is then exactly the same format as a ATC instruction and therefore could be taken accidentally as an instruction by another aircraft with a similar callsign - I always thought that that was the whole point.

[Scott Voigt]

Shoot what a nit to pick... I am just happy when the pilots use a call sign <G>...

[2 sheds]

Obviously, I didn't explain myself clearly!

[Parkbremse]

placing the callsign first is actually the way it is taught for the german radio telephony exam... both vfr and ifr

[duece19]

Im with you there Sheds...

but does anyone have a written reference?

duece

[2 sheds]

The ICAO Radiotelephony Manual would be of interest but is not available online. Anyone have access to a current one?

I thought that the UK Manual was derived directly from it - with a lot more padding.

[rolaaand]

Except that if the callsign is placed first, it is then exactly the same format as a ATC instruction and therefore could be taken accidentally as an instruction by another aircraft with a similar callsign - I always thought that that was the whole point.

Now I see where confusion could arise! The DLH callsigns during the oceanic rush are all DLH4**,so all very similar. Just because an incident hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wont. I stand by my previous comment that Lufthansa crews,as far as ATC are concerned,are probably the best in the business. Also Parkbremse says that german crews are taught to read back the callsigs first. Would be good if someone could source something in black and white that could put this issue to bed one way or another.

[DirkRose]

Last I heard, from talking to lufthansa crews, the use of the callsign at the beginning of a readback is now optional within Lufthansa. Most probably it is now just habit. Also tried it for a while but its not for me...bahh!

DR

[FinalVectors]

Now I see where confusion could arise! The DLH callsigns during the oceanic rush are all DLH4**,so all very similar. Just because an incident hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it wont.

In Norway the book says...ATC: C/S +the message, and Pilot readback + C/S. But like written before...its sometimes a luxury when U get them both.

I dont know how it is in the rest of Europe...but atleast DLH into Oslo have for some time been using combination of numbers and letters. I think this is a good way to avoid possible callsing confusions. We had a lot of them before.

And it also makes for some good laughs...like DLH9CM. We controllers have sometimes (ehhhh...maybe correct word should be mostly :} ) a one track mind;)

[Vic Rattlehead]

...And it also makes for some good laughs...like DLH9CM. We controllers have sometimes (ehhhh...maybe correct word should be mostly :} ) a one track mind;)

Sorry, maybe I'm being a bit dim, but just don't get it... :confused:

Rgds.

[FinalVectors]

Sorry, maybe I'm being a bit dim, but just don't get it... :confused:
Rgds.
cm....think of the metric system.. and I think U will get it:)

[Vic Rattlehead]

Ok, ok, silly me!! Got it!! :cool:
Thanks.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

As Scott Voigt said, we are happy just to get a callsign at all in the readback. Dealing with a couple of the Middle Eastern Airlines and Sub-Continental Airlines in particular, you have to fight to get a callsign at all. When you have 8 guys on frequency at the same time all from the same company, all with similair flight numbers, all with the same sounding voice, its sometimes a game for all the family trying to ascertain who it was who readback which instruction.

Believe me if all you guys have to worry about is getting the readback at the start or at the end of a transmission, you have been mollycoddled for way too long.

[rolaaand]

cm....think of the metric system.. and I think U will get it:)

The winters are pretty long in Norway mate if that's what makes you chuckle...;)
There used to be an Edinburgh Birmingham flight-BRT1TS-I know it's immature to find it amusing,but I did:O

ANSA-the problem of no callsign in a readback is a global one. I'm with you,it's no fun on a busy sector with twenty US carriers in there and I've got to guess who read back the climb instruction.I suppose it is nit picking in a way because I'm sure Lufthansa are just as sharp where you work as they are in Europe.But as 2 sheds has pointed out there is potential for confusion.Like you say though I'd rather have a callsign somewhere in the readback than not at all.

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Until a few years ago (here in Australia) it was callsign and then readback.
I preferred it. The reason?
When the readback is being received, the ATCO is concurrently electronically notating the correct readback items - and THEN gets the wrong callsign at the end. Hopefully hearing that correctly and undoing, fixing and repeating instruction. If the callsign was first this would be picked up straight away.