Departure frequency change?

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

Hi

Just wondering if someone can help me with this.

This question is from the the JAA questionbank for the ATPL.


During a take-off into IMC conditions with low ceiling the pilot should
contact departure control:

Bristol question says: "After take-off".

Italian question bank: "When advised byTower".

What is correct?????????

My personal experience from the when flyin in FAA airspace is "When advised byTower" but which answere does the JAA want?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Basic, good, radio communication practice should be not to change frequency without being told or without telling the station you are working that you are changing. Sadly, those who often frame aviation communication procedures have little knowledge or experience of such things.

Changing frequency without being told is, IMHO, immensely dangerous and I have the experience to prove it. For an unknown period, nobody can communicate with the flight at a potentially critical time.

I would always go for "change frequency when instructed"... and suggest that the preferred procedure is for ATC to pass the next frequency and for the pilot to read that back.

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

I have done a research and it seems that the correct answere is actually "after take-off". According to ICAO CAP 444 its says that if the aircraft is taking off in to IMC conditions the daprture frequency should be set prior to the aircraft being airborne.



BUT in real life I always wait for the tower to tell me to switch to departure frequency unless otherwise stated in the SID. But I am afraid that the coerrect answere in the JAA exam is "after take off"

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Jimmy... "after take off" is correct in one sense...

At Heathrow we tried a number of stupid procedures. One involved telling the pilots something like "90 seconds after rolling contact xxx". This was to reduce their workload during the take-off period. Unfortunately, one pilot missed the "90 seconds after rolling" bit and called London Control before entering the runway. The radar man went back with his usual phrase: "Climb to 6000 ft..." so the pilot interpreted that as a clearance from where he was to 6000 ft..... so without another word he entered the runway and took off, much to the amazement of the Heathrow Tower controller!!

There's always one...........

[bookworm]

HD

That's a super tale of how even the best intentioned inventions can blow up if you don't think through every conceivable failure mode. I'll remember it!

[30W]

HD,

Here in BB we have an automated transfer to App on departure when passing 2000'. Have to say, from a pilots perspective it works extremely well, and avoids TWR interruption at a time when we are busy with the aircraft.

Anything other than the standard is issued as a non-standard clearance by the AIR Controller prior to departure.

30W

[rightbank]

Not sure what the exam answers are, but in real life ( I would like to think that it should be the same, but in flying who knows? ), if the departure plate says "after take-off contact XXX" then do it ( this is common in Germany ). A "goodbye" at the end of reading back the take-off clearance whilst still on the runway should remove any ambiguity here.

As 30W says at Birmingham and perhaps others there is a conditional clearance to contact departure when passing 2000ft.

Unless there is an automatic frequency change as part of your departure clearance, then for any other scenario you wait until told what frequency to contact. The departure plate may or may not have the next frequency. It may have more than one frequency, but you most definitely wait until told.

[Chilli Monster]

Scenario:

Aircraft gets airborne. SOP is for TWR to do a Mode 'C' validation before transfer to the centre. North bounds go to one centre, South bounds go to another.

West European heavy aircraft gets airborne, ATCO asks for a level check - nothing. Calls again - nothing. Aircraft re-appears on frequency having self transferred to the NORTHERN frequency when he was in fact SOUTHBOUND. (Obviously scratching of heads at the north bound area centre as they weren't expecting him!).

Don't change unless given a positive instruction to change please - be it at the time or as part of a clearance.

[threemiles]

In Germany all SIDs contain "Immediately after departure contact ..." instructions (with the exception of two airports where it says "after passing 2000 feet contact.." (due to VFR traffic constraints) and Munich ("Remain on TWR freq until advised") due to simultaneous parallel traffic. This also works for different sector freqs depending on actual SID.

This procedure is in effect since twenty years or so and extremely efficient. I reckon the number of those who don't comply to be not measurable.

[GuruCube]

Remember the question is for taking off into IMC, so in a way contacting radar immediately after t/o could be ok (As our TWR control is limited in IMC anyway). However, I hate it when pilots are already off my frequency when I call to change them. Even in good weather, if Im launching 2 planes close, I want them both talking to me, not to someone else!!
I guess what our own experiences are will bias our decisions somewhat here, but I can think of a scenario where it would be important in IMC...
Think of a very slow aircraft departing.. even in the worst vis and LVPs, the inbound will be at least 2nm when the departure is overhead the Loc. Everything seems fine and slow a/c is already off frequency. At 1nm, the inbound suffers windshear and goes around. By the nature of the windshear, they cannot accept a turn and want to fly straight ahead.
I dont think I need to carry on to show the point. If that a/c cannot stabilise enough, he will go screaming straight towards the departure! Highly unlikely you might say, but thats not the same as impossible. And the same situation could be MUCH MUCH worse in good vis and non-IMC conditions!!

[galaxy flyer]

US procedure is to wait until told to "change to departure" except at military bases for fighter types. Someone here is going to kill that idea as "American and hence WRONG", but anyway, why not just have the tower do it the American way? Everyone knows what's going to happen, tower still has contact and positive change to departure. The German procedure was fine at EDDF, but not used at Ramstein (Yank base), confusing. Make it "out of 1000 feet, contact departure" (CYVR, yesterday) is going to have the faux arguing about AGL, MSL, or Gods knows what.

DOC 4444 should make this clear, ONE way!

GF