What means JAR compliant?

[acuba 290]

http://www.ukft.com/LC-Courses_JAR-CompliantMulti-EngineRating.htm

just found such great offer, but can somebody explain me if it possible to get in my UK CAA JAR-PPL license, this ME rating, which never expires like you can read there?

[Julian]

There is no such licence.

Its an FAA licence hence ICAO.

Julian

[acuba 290]

There is no such licence.

Its an FAA licence hence ICAO.

Julian

and what does it mean? Why they are not writing FAA-ME in that case?

[potkettleblack]

It means you can get the same licence at any one of the thousands of FTO's in the US for less money. Its purely a marketing ploy targeting the Europeans. They used to have full approval from the CAA and therefore you got a JAA licence but for some reason they didn't renew. A list of the approved JAA FTO's that are based overseas is available on the CAA website. Also do a search on UKFT and you should get a load of hits. This topic comes up at least once a month.

[acuba 290]

It means you can get the same licence at any one of the thousands of FTO's in the US for less money. Its purely a marketing ploy.

still don't understand, please xplain if possible;)

[potkettleblack]

You go out there and you get an FAA PPL plus the UK radio licence. Then you hop on the plane and come back to the UK. Then you need to make some decisions. Do you convert your licence to JAA or stick with the FAA licence and find a FAA CFI to do your BFR etc. Legally I think they are right that you can come back to the UK and hop into a G registered aircraft and go. In a practical sense this won't happen as each club will have their own rules and have hoops for you to jump through before being let loose. If you convert to JAA then you will have two licences and differing rules on medicals and times to keep yourself current plus the possible hassle of finding an FAA chap/chapess to renew you.

Question for you is if you can get an FAA PPL any cheaper than from a school that is selling you something called a JAR compliant PPL which doesn't exist. I would say the answer should be pretty obvious. Do that search I suggested and read through all the posts.

[IO540]

I read this forum fairly regularly but still don't quite understand what is going on in this advertising.

The holder of any ICAO PPL (which includes the FAA PPL) can jump into a G-reg plane and fly it worldwide, without any paperwork. This is because the UK ANO automatically validates ICAO licenses for VFR privileges in a G-reg.

If a lot more people knew this, and a lot of them were willing to train in the USA (for weird legal reasons it is all but impossible to train for an FAA PPL in the UK) the UK flight training business would get decimated.

However, the problems with going round with an FAA PPL include

- You can't automatically jump into a D-reg F-reg etc (other countries don't do the UK's automatic validation) so renting elsewhere in Europe is more of a hassle

- A lot of UK flying schools/clubs don't know this anyway and won't let you rent a G-reg

- Every 2 years you need a check flight with an instructor, called a BFR, and for this to be done legally, in UK airspace, there are various weird requirements for the instructor - according to whether it is done in an N-reg or a G-reg and whether or not he is getting paid for it. To do a BFR in a G-reg in UK airspace he needs to be both an FAA CFI and (AIUI) a JAA FI even if he is not being paid.

Advantages of an FAA PPL

- a much more accessible instrument rating than the JAA one

- significantly less study for the PPL exams, and the FAA syllabus contains far less totally irrelevant crap than the JAA one

- night privileges automatically included (some debate whether they can be exercised in UK airspace, where night=IFR and IFR is outside the FAA PPL privileges)

- probably a bit cheaper to do a PPL in the USA

I hope I haven't left anything out :)

I do wonder why the CAA have been reluctant to renew JAA training permits in the USA. It could be they are a load of John Wayne type cowboys out there, with aeroplanes from C150s to 747s plummetting out of the sky, colliding on the runways, etc. Or it could be that the UK flight training industry has been lobbying the CAA to protect the UK flight training business ;)

[speedbird676]

- probably a bit cheaper to do a PPL in the USA

About half the price!

[IO540]

Half the price yes, but -

- a number of days spent pushing paper around for Visa and TSA

- a day spent at the US Embassy in London, plus travel

- a day spent at Flight Safety in Farnborough getting fingerprinted, plus travel

- a day spent somewhere (probably Norwich) to sit the FAA PPL written exam, cost £200+, plus travel

- various expenses, e.g. $130 to TSA, a possible $250 for an I-20, etc etc

- airline flights to USA

- living in the USA for a month

- eating there (instead of getting your mum to feed you :) ) - bear in mind that most U.S. food is absolute sh1t and if you eat what is obviously on offer you will put on 2st in a month, so self catering is a must

- laundry (instead of getting your mum to do it :) )

I've done this (for the IR, for very good reasons to do with legal UK regulatory issues) but I reckon that if somebody did in the UK what they would do in the USA, i.e. take a solid month out of their life and live in a B&B next to a half decent UK flying school, they would knock off a PPL here in a month too. It would still cost more but the margin is so thin few would bother.

Subject to weather of course and that is the crunch!

[Julian]

(for weird legal reasons it is all but impossible to train for an FAA PPL in the UK)

IO,

You can train in the UK for an FAA licence but believe the fun starts when you want to take your check ride.

The FAA wont licence any FAA examiners in the UK and hence you either have to go over to the USA and do it or there used to be visiting examiners a couple of times a year to UK but not sure if this practice still goes on.

[englishal]

food is absolute sh1t and if you eat what is obviously on offer you will put on 2st in a month,
But think of the money you save, you don't have to eat for a month on return to the UK :}

Actually, these "hidden costs" are not too bad. You're looking at £500 in a nice hotel, £350 flights, and many "train the brits in America" providers include the accomodation in the package price.

I believe the "JAR Compliant" PPL also includes a number of the JAA ground exams, if not all of them. The theory behind this, is that then once you have X hours, you can convert to JAA if you wish. I *believe* that these are done at an authorised place prior to arrival.

With said organisation, although they no longer have CAA approval - and frankly I don't blame them as it used to cost them in excess of £5000 per year, plus expenses (business class flights) for the inspector, which is really just a jolly for him - they do have a JAA examiner. He is authorised to do licence conversions, so once a student has a PPL (FAA) and the ground exams passed, guess what? They can be converted to a full blown JAA PPL.

Personally I wouldn't bother, I'd stick with the FAA. I did my JAA PPL before my FAA ticket, but every couple of years do think about just letting my JAA one lapse.....

[IO540]

Julian

Yes, indeed you can, in fact you can do all the training in a G-reg with a dual rated instructor.

But I believe there is a problem with doing it in an N-reg, something to do with being sent for your PPL solo[/B not being legally possible in UK airspace... could be another rumour of course.

If training in the UK, and if one is clever about it, one can meet the logbook requirements of

FAA PPL
JAA PPL
FAA IR
CAA IMCR

all in one go, by carefully choosing the lengths of various flights.

One can do something similar in the USA but AIUI one has to meet the ANO requirements about it being an approved FTO. How can one train towards a JAA PPL using JAA rated instructors (which is easy) without them being based at an approved FTO (which needs CAA approval)?

Of course the FTO could be approved by any other JAA member - the resulting JAA PPL would be just as valid. The UK CAA does not have a monopoly on approving USA-based FTOs.

I can see that if you train (in the USA) for an FAA PPL, "incidentally" meeting all the logbook requirements for a JAA PPL, and set the JAA exams at a UK FTO, get the CAA medical with a UK AME, then you can convert your FAA PPL to a JAA PPL. This is probably what is happening, yes?

This brings me to an obvious question: why does UK/JAA PPL training have to be based at an FTO? I know the ANO says so, but it seems possible to circumvent it by training, in a G-reg, towards an [B]FAA PPL, with a freelance instructor (not FTO based) who is both an FAA CFI and a JAA FI. Then do the conversion to JAA as described in the above paragraph :)

[BEagle]

UK JAR-FCL PPL training does not have to be conducted at a FTO - a RF is entirely sufficient. But ab initio PPL training does (at the moment....) have to be conducted at a Licensed or Government aerodrome.

The principal difficulties faced by FAA PPL holders in the UK appear to be achieving their BFRs after 2 years - and uncertainty over rules governing anything other than day VFR operation in UK airspace. Which are as clear as mud - unless it involves operation of a N-reg a/c and the PPL holder also holds a FAA IR.

[IO540]

One can do a BFR:

In a G-reg, with a FAA+JAA rated instructor.

In an N-reg, with an FAA CFI. If he is charging for it, and the flight is within UK CAA jurisdiction airspace, then

- he needs to be a CAA/JAA FI also, and
- the pilot needs to meet the requirements for the DfT training permission (be a [part] owner etc), and obtain that permission.

It's not too big a deal, but one needs the right contacts. A lot of people simply pop somewhere outside UK airspace.

[englishal]

Can a JAA instructor give the instructional flight required under the FARs for a BFR, and if so could you combine JAA and FAA biennial flights into one?

The FARs specify "authorised" instructor. An FAA "Ground Instructor" can supply the ground element as well as logbook endorsement....Now as these exams are not too onerous.....(see what I'm getting at, I'll do yours, you do mine :) )

To be eligible for a ground instructor certificate, you must
Be at least 18 years of age.
Be able to read, write, and converse fluently in English.
Exhibit practical and theoretical knowledge by passing the Fundamentals of Instructing (FOI) and the appropriate ground instructor knowledge tests.
For the FOI knowledge test, study Gleim's Fundamentals of Instructing FAA Knowledge Test.
You are not required to take the FOI knowledge test if you
Hold an FAA flight or ground instructor certificate
Hold a current teacher's certificate authorizing you to teach at an educational level of 7th grade or higher
Are employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university
For the advanced or basic ground instructor knowledge test, study Gleim's Flight/Ground Instructor FAA Knowledge Test book.
For the instrument ground instructor knowledge test, study Gleim's Instrument Pilot FAA Knowledge Test book.
Ground instructor certificates cover three levels of certification:
Basic ground instructor (BGI) may provide
Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for a recreational or private pilot certificate
Ground training required for a recreational or private pilot flight review
A recommendation for the recreational or private pilot knowledge test
Advanced ground instructor (AGI) may provide:
Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for any certificate or rating
Ground training required for any flight review
A recommendation for a knowledge test required for any certificate
Instrument ground instructor (IGI) may provide:
Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for an instrument rating to a pilot or instructor certificate
Ground training required for an instrument proficiency check
A recommendation for the instrument rating knowledge test for a pilot or instructor certificate

Oh yea, and no DFT permission required

[IO540]

You may well be right, Englishal, in that a JAA FI can do an FAA BFR.

However, a DfT permission is needed for any flight in a foreign reg plane in UK CAA airspace, where the instructor is getting paid.

Of course if the instructor charges for ground school instead.... ;) but that isn't the point really :)

[tmmorris]

take a solid month out of their life and live in a B&B next to a half decent UK flying school, they would knock off a PPL here in a month too

Exactly what I did (at Welshpool, in 2001), but the economics for me were even more skewed because the B&B was my parents' house, and hence free... Going to America thus didn't make any sense at all. And that was pre-NPPL, too; now you could probably do an NPPL for even less. It took 3 and a half weeks.

Tim

[DFC]

The UK CAA does not have a monopoly on approving USA-based FTOs.

I think that the CAA is the only authority that approved US based schools.

Regards,

DFC

[dublinpilot]

Maybe the only place that does, but not the only place that can.

[IO540]

Well, yes, the German CAA or the French DGAC could equally well approve a JAA school in Florida.

Somehow I don't see the DGAC doing it though, post Gulf War II :)