Reds exit display

[formationfoto]

Half way through their display at the RAF Wyton families day today the Reds had to stop their display because two gliders were infringing their TRA.

Ther are a number of points worth making about this:

Firstly the commentator spent ten minutes berating these amataur GA pilots who dare to populate the skies above our hallowed land. Sorry but such arrogance is just noy conducive to a sensible working relationship. Some of us have to pay for our aviation experiences and dont have the tax payer funding us.

Now to the rant about the glider pilots concerned. We all forget to check the Notams every now and again. There is little excuse for not knowing what is going on locally and I am assuming that these gliders were local. What is worse is that they appeared to take little heed of the Reds trying to alet them to their presence by flying in the vicinty streaming smoke. Pretty unfortunate that the CAA head of SRG (or whatever it is called these days) was at Wyton. You can be sure he is using every course of acdtion he can to track them down and make an example of them.

Big thimbs up to the Reds themselves however. When Dicky P spotted the interlopers he didnt head off to his next location in a huff but did all he could to clear the TRA in order to resume. Maybe for a civialian event he might not have been so accomodating but he had the nine hawks holding and aiming to be as conspicous as possible in order to try and resume. Top marks Red one.

Otherwise great day - really enjoyable and the BBMF Lanc put ona slightly more sprited show than is normally the case. In my diary for next year.l

[J.A.F.O.]

This seems to be happening more and more.

Are the sparrows getting twitchier or are we getting worse at NOTAMs?

[Stampe]

Huge and very widely known problems with the notam website ,its frequently down at present and of course is nowadays the only practical method of obtaining complete notam information .So the pilots will have an excellent defence,perhaps the commentator should be sure of his facts and the head of SRG spend more time at the office sorting out the mess and chaos the CAA finds itself in nowadays.Not sure this crumbling ruin of a country that Blair has created can really afford extravagences as the Red Arrows (magnificent though they are)any more.

[greeners]

Sorry guys, yes the NOTAM website can be a pain, but there is NO excuse for any aviator to blunder into a Reds TRA.

[fireflybob]

Unforgiveable in my opinion - I hope the CAA through the book at them.

Whilst I agree that the NOTAM website leaves much to be desired (please can we scrap it and go back to the old system?) what about the 0500 FreePhone Number which gives details of TRAs etc.

I will put my hand up and plead guilty to occasionally not doing a good job at checking NOTAMs prior to flight but I NEVER go flying (even locally) without checking out the 0500 number - after all it's FREE!!

[tangovictor]

i agree with firefly, maybe if the CAA made an example of these so called pilots who have total disregard to anyone except themselves, pull there licence's for 6 months or make them re-train as there inital training seems to have been forgotten

[ShyTorque]

But glider pilots don't have CAA licences......

[tangovictor]

But glider pilots don't have CAA licences......

I guess, they just have to be shot down then

[Final 3 Greens]

Did anyone try to call the gliders on 130.4 to alert them?

Anyway, glider pilots are much better stick and rudder men than GA pilots and with their superior lookout skills, I am sure that they could have easily steered around the sparrows.

[rogcal]

I'll have to chuckle if the glider pilots concerned turn out to be military types flying out of the RAF Upwood glider site.:)

[MarcJF]

The 0500 354 802 number is still operational, well worth a check, and it's free!

[bletchleytugie]

Rogcal

I think you find the last military glider to fly from Upwood left some time ago - if there ever was a gliding school there in the first place. Upwood is now the home to a civilian club who (unfortunatly) where at Wyton trying to promote the sport of gliding :\

[ShyTorque]

Did anyone try to call the gliders on 130.4 to alert them?
Anyway, glider pilots are much better stick and rudder men than GA pilots and with their superior lookout skills, I am sure that they could have easily steered around the sparrows.


:ok: :ok:

But steam MUST give way to sail. :=

[chevvron]

Many years ago, prior to the establishment of TRA's for the Red Arrows, they were scheduled for a display at RAF Odiham. On the same day (and all week in fact), there was a major gliding competition in progress at Lasham. For those who are unaware, Lasham is about 4nm from Odiham.
The Reds started their display, but broke off after about 10 minutes and departed complaining about a glider and tug combination which kept getting in their way! (Lasham were carrying out their 'massed launch' procedure at the time, using about 20 tugs to get 100 odd sailplanes airborne in as short a time as possible)
It would seem that, although the Lasham competiton organisers were aware of the Red Arrows display, the Reds for whatever reason had either failed to brief about the gliding, or had blandly assumed the gliders would keep clear of them!

[FlyingForFun]

Sorry guys, yes the NOTAM website can be a pain, but there is NO excuse for any aviator to blunder into a Reds TRAAnd if an aviator does everything he can be expected to do, but the Reds TRA is not brought to his attention due to a problem with the system he is using?

I'm thinking about ChrisN's recent experiences of the AIS briefing service (here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2744940&postcount=7) and here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2745323&postcount=8)), whereby he e-mailed them for a briefing, and they responded to his query - but with a radius 1/4 of the size he asked for. He only became aware of this because the web-based query engine started working shortly afterwards, and he noticed NOTAMs missing from the AIS reply to his query.

Had the query engine not started working, or had he not decided to have checked it anyway (which I think would have been quite reasonable since he had already obtained a briefing from AIS), he most likely would never have known about the missing NOTAMs. If this meant that something relevant - a Reds display or anything else - had been missing, I think the presenting the e-mail from AIS would probably have been reasonable mitigation of busting the display or whatever other restricted area had been missed?

I'm not suggesting this was what happened in this case - I have no knowledge of the incident nor of what briefing methods the glider pilots used. But I do think it's about time that the CAA realised that the current system is difficult to use, there is not sufficient training given, and that (aside from any recent problems which are making it worse than normal) this is creating dangerous situations where pilots do not know how to get a NOTAM briefing which contains all of the information they need. The half-hearted instructions given at CAA safety evenings (which are poorly attended, and in the main attended by the kind of pilot who probably does know how to brief himself properly) do not get the instructions conveyed to most pilots, and are no substitute for a properly designed, intuitive system which does not need a 20-page manual to be able to use properly.

Sorry for the rant - I'm in a bad mood generally today! - but although I agree that there is no excuse for a pilot not attempting to brief himself properly, it's about time everyone realised it's a two-way street, and we need a system which makes such briefings easier and more reliable.

FFF
--------------

[SAR Bloke]

The Reds started their display, but broke off after about 10 minutes and departed complaining about a glider and tug combination which kept getting in their way! (Lasham were carrying out their 'massed launch' procedure at the time, using about 20 tugs to get 100 odd sailplanes airborne in as short a time as possible)
It would seem that, although the Lasham competiton organisers were aware of the Red Arrows display, the Reds for whatever reason had either failed to brief about the gliding, or had blandly assumed the gliders would keep clear of them!

Am I missing something? Do gliders not have to obey TRAs?

[Stampe]

Well put FFF.I regularly help friends off on flying weekends and unable to access the web on their travels.Last year I did a narrow route search for a former colleague who was going to the Isle of Man.I just happened to know the Red Arrows were performing there.Narrow route brief just didn,t bring it up despite repeated attempts to provoke it into doing so and I am very practised at using it and the systems foibles.I am amazed the CAA manage to get any prosecutions with the present system I know how I would conduct a defence to any infringement!!.The current notam system is not up to the job,it is the product of an attempt to economise on the cost of running a notam system .The result is a very flawed system that has not properly replaced the system that went before it.

[Final 3 Greens]

SARBloke

prior to the establishment of TRA's for the Red Arrows

Extract from 1st sentence of the mail you commented on.

[SAR Bloke]

Doh,

I'll read the post properly in future.:oh:

[formationfoto]

As I understand it everything that could be done was by the guys at Wyton trying to track down the TRA intruders. All relevant frequencies were used, many phone calls made, etc.

I didnt see Mr CAA but understodd that he was 'on a roll' trying to track down the culprits - and he did check the Notams before flying in to Wyton!. If this was a local gliding club I am sure the club would have been advised of the TRA and if responsible would have placed the notification on the notice board to draw it to the attention of pilots flying locally.

[Genghis the Engineer]

But glider pilots don't have CAA licences......

Which makes them however no less subject to the rules of the air than the rest of us - they just had to learn about them by a slightly different route.

G

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Couple of points here..

Glider pilots, IMHO, seem to have their own agenda when it comes to where and when they can fly. I'm sure this will ruffle a few feathers among the glider pilots on here, but maybe they have their own version of the ANO, which probably goes something like this:

Rule 1 - Glider pilots are always right.

Rule 2 - See Rule 1

Rule 3 - You cant fly the Tug unless you are a glider pilot, even if you have 5000 hrs on type..

Rule 4 - Only Silver C to PPL conversions can fly the tug, even if they are over 80 yrs of age..

Before anyone says it, this is not sour grapes. (I've served my tugging sentence thank you), but merely my observations and experience of the gliding fraternity in the UK over a 20 yr period. Those glider pilot members of my own flying club are brilliant at telling people how good they are..:D

Secondly, Why not disband the Red Arrows (must cost a whole lot of much needed cash to run ever year), and have a smaller team in line with our smaller 'Tony Bliar style' RAF. How about a formation of four red Tucanos? That way, they wouldnt need to take up so much sky, and a TRA wouldn't be required, and they would have to keep their eyes open like I have to when I do any formation flying! Or can I apply for a TRA when I fly a big formation around the skies?:E

[Vifferpilot]

Secondly, Why not disband the Red Arrows (must cost a whole lot of much needed cash to run ever year), and have a smaller team in line with our smaller 'Tony Bliar style' RAF. How about a formation of four red Tucanos? That way, they wouldnt need to take up so much sky, and a TRA wouldn't be required, and they would have to keep their eyes open like I have to when I do any formation flying! Or can I apply for a TRA when I fly a big formation around the skies?:E

I wont bite, I wont bite, I wont...:oh:

Husbands Bosworth recently held some sort of x-country gliding competition. Whilst the route was duly NOTAM'd, it went very close to the Mildenhall/Lakenheath zones. At the time I questioned the airmanship involved in putting so many difficult to see, non-squawking (?) gliders that close to a major transport airfield. Indeed, I had to interrupt several teaches with my students to avoid said gliders. Now, I know that the open FIR is exactly that, open, but I was always taught to think very carefully about my routings so as to avoid the potential for late avoidance or even a mid-air. Just wondered what the consensus is on this kind of thing? :confused:

[englishal]

Actually, I did see something in the Notams yesterday relating to a major gliding comptetition.....?? Could these events be related I wonder?

[scooter boy]

I'd have to say that a couple of sidewinders ought to sort the problem out but if the engineless bimblers concerned didn't have a high enough metal content or weren't warm enough - a short burst or two of cannon fire would do it. The hawks are military aircraft after all and what better a display of their capabilities. ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd have to say that a couple of sidewinders ought to sort the problem out but if the engineless bimblers concerned didn't have a high enough metal content or weren't warm enough - a short burst or two of cannon fire would do it. The hawks are military aircraft after all and what better a display of their capabilities. ;)

Problem with that, is that the Sidewinder capability on the Hawk is essential forward firing only - and I'm not sure that getting an IR lock with 8 wingmen to think about is all that practical.

Plus, how do you get an IR lock on a glider? Where's the heat source?


Aden Cannon is almost certainly the only option.

G

[Windy Militant]

Aden Cannon is almost certainly the only option.

May I point out a flaw in this plan. By the Time that they'd have landed replaced the smoke pods with the gun pack the gliders would have skeddadled!
I suppose you could always have Red Ten standing by with the Aden ready fitted. ;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Do you need a smoke pod on the leader? You might be able to forego it I'd have thought for the precautionary cannon.

That said, it'll certainly be much easier to manoeuvre an out-of-formation red-10, so that's probably the more practical option and with a prompt engagement it shouldn't need to delay the display by more than 30 seconds or so.

G

[gpn01]

"Actually, I did see something in the Notams yesterday relating to a major gliding comptetition".....

Would that be the NOTAM entry for Aston Down (UK National competition), or the one for Husbands Bosworth (UK Regional Competition) or the one for Dunstable (UK Juniors National competition) ? So, at least three NOTAM entries and only one was noticed...

The incident occurred at around 15:30 which meant that the gliders weren't from Upwood. Nene Valley Gliding Club, who are based at Upwood, generally don't start flying until after 18:00 on Fridays and several of their members were actually at RAF Wyton on a glider display stand - so all the more embarrassing for them, even though it wasn't their members fault.

The tail number of one of the gliders involved is believed to have been recorded and efforts are underway to trace who it was. The gliding community isn't happy about such infringements as it portrays gliding in a negative light.

We need to get away from this "us" and "them" attitude of power vs glider pilots - we're all sharing the same bit of sky and need to work together. Anybody following the proposal for mandatory fitting of Mode-S transponders to ALL aircraft, irrespective of size, will realize that there may soon be no uncontrolled airspace in the UK, which will be an absolute shame.

[formationfoto]

gpn01
I was having this conversation with a gliding friend of mine and I find the anti glider attitude of the power brigade to be disgraceful. This time it was two gliders. Other infringements have been from powered aircraft. It is not your power source which dictates whether you are a total prat or not.

It was quite a thermal day so the intruders could have travelled some distance to sit in the TRA (so they might not have been aware of the local event at Wyton). Im not sure what height they were at when they were spotted by Dicks flying circus. Notams are there for a purpose. If only the system was a bit more robust (and no checking the Reds details is not enough there are plenty of other 'avoids' to be considered beyond the RAFs self propelling recruitment billboard).

No one has to apologise here except for the pilots who made a mistake and just maybe the reds commentator who went a bit over the top.

A short display it might have been but the first from them I have seen this season and it still inspires me to improve my own formation work.

[formationfoto]

Oh just one point gpn01 - the implied criticism of the earlier poster in your quote (only seeing one notam ref gliding) is a bit unfair, Search the AIS system on a narrow routing and you will only pick up geographically relevant notams.

[gpn01]

Fair enough - Another example of the problem with the web-based AIS system. When you manage to login (I've just tried several times to no avail, even though I've just reregistered with a new login and received a response to say that I'm now registered - which raises the other question of why does one have to register in order to see safety information? but that's another issue) then the whole setup is very "going from A to B" oriented. It doesn't consider that gliders, which use the energy lines provided by nature and not those drawn on maps by the CAA, generally don't want to go from A to B (if we did, we'd fit engines or buy a bus ticket) and that 'A' and 'B' probably don't have ICAO designation anyway.

The AIS system can also lead to things being missed - citing the BGA's helpful document on how to use the AIS site "If you get rid of Misc you will NOT get Nav Warnings such as TRA’s". So, whereas in the 'old' days where you'd work your way down the Country looking at the printed NOTAM list for the part of the country of interest, you can now inadvertantly miss important notes at the click of a button. That's if you manage to successfully navigate around the number of web errors generated by the site.

Rant over

PS: The final indignity! I've just managed to login, did a UK Narrow Route Briefing from EGSC (Cambridge) to EGSP (Peterborough Conington) for 28th July between 1200 - 1800, with a route width of 60nm, including misc notices (i.e. TRA's). This showed stuff as far afield as Southampton, Newark, Norwich and Waddington. No mention of Wyton's TRA for the Red Arrows though! Arrgghhh!

[rustle]

So, whereas in the 'old' days where you'd work your way down the Country looking at the printed NOTAM list for the part of the country of interest, you can now inadvertantly miss important notes at the click of a button.
Rant over

If you like the old way of doing things, there is a full list of all NOTAM available on the NATS website HERE (http://www.nats.co.uk/text/109/preflight_information_bulletins_pibs_.html)

The advantage is that everything is there, in order, and it doesn't rely on the piece of crap Thales provide for briefings.

[Mike Cross]

GPN01

A little more understanding of the international NOTAM system will help you.

You clearly understand that the way to get a briefing for an area is to choose to a/d that straddle your area of interest and set up a NRB between them with a route width that defines a box Xnm either side of the track. (quite why you want a box 120nm wide and only 22 nm long is a bit of a mystery)

In your case Cambridge to Southampton is 94.5nm. NOTAM B0404/06 regarding Solent Radar's hours of operation has a radius of operation of 50nm which means that it extends some 15.5nm into the box you defined. That is why it is included.

Is the substance of your complaint

1. That there was something wrong with what you were given
or
2. That you don't understand how it works?

I recommend the website user guide (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/image/PIBGuide.PDF).

If you still have problems suggest you call the Duty Officer and ask for Dave Smith. He's a gliding instructor who works there and will certainly be able to help.

Mike

[gpn01]

My observation is that despite selecting what I think was a valid set of criteria (including a very wide corridor straddling RAF Wyton) that the Red Arrows TRA, which was the original point of the thread, didn't appear in the listing. That suggests either that something's not right in the system or that I'm using it wrongly. I'll accept it's entirely possible that I may be doing something wrong and am keen to address this and will then happily share it with my fellow glider pilots - always keen to learn and share experiences, particularly if it helps to improve safety.

rustle - Thanks for the pointer to the summary, jolly useful.

[Mike Cross]

Without your brief I can't comment on why you didn't get the Wyton NOTAM. However if you or anyone else has a problem with a brief it's very important to find out why.

I think a clue is in your own post. You posted yesterday (1 August)
PS: The final indignity! I've just managed to login, did a UK Narrow Route Briefing from EGSC (Cambridge) to EGSP (Peterborough Conington) for 28th July between 1200 - 1800, with a route width of 60nm, including misc notices (i.e. TRA's). This showed stuff as far afield as Southampton, Newark, Norwich and Waddington. No mention of Wyton's TRA for the Red Arrows though! Arrgghhh!

Your brief would not include NOTAM that were no longer valid at the time you took the brief and the Wyton one expired on 28 July. What you get is a PRE-FLIGHT Information Bulletin.

At the top of your brief are the criteria that were used in selecting the NOTAM to be included. There's also a number beginning R like this R0200323. Quoting this number will allow AIS to retrieve the brief and give you the answer.

Common reasons for non-inclusion include that the activity was not active during the validity period of the brief.
It is important to note that any entry in the "UTC Date of Flight" box has no effect on the validity. It is what is in the "UTC Validity Period" boxes that is important. If they are left blank the brief will be valid for 48 Hrs from when the Submit button is clicked.

The Wyton NOTAM was valid from 14:25 to 15:02 on 28 July (i.e. 15:25 to 16:02 Local) 15:02 - there's precision for you.

There have been occaisons when users have entered the date in the wrong (i.e. non-ICAO) format, e.g. entering 050706 thinking that's 5 July 2006 when in ICAO speak it's 6 July 2005 or of course mixing UTC and Local.

If you drop an email to [email protected] with either the R number described above or the date and approx time you took the brief, together with your login details they'll dig it out and find out what went wrong. Far better to find out the reason than for an incident ot occur on some future date.

(Incidentally that's one of the reasons for login being required)

Mike

[chrisN]

If your NRB for the day of the Wyton Reds display did not reveal them and should, have you kept the download? If so, there is an "R" followed by 7 digits at the beginning. AIS keep a file of all briefings. By advising them this number, they can call it up and should be able to see why it failed to show the Reds warning.

[In case something like this ever happens, my practice is to store the whole download including the R number as one document; and then "save as" in a similar but edited file where I chop out the stuff my gliding club does not need, i.e. all the RAC and "other" if it is irrelevant to the day's flying. If there were an incident caused by a pilot not knowing about a NOTAM, I can check if it is my editing that screwed up, and if not AIS can see if I failed to specify the NRB correctly or if their system did it wrong. I feel particularly protective because my summary is then used by the whole club, unless somebody wants to go outside "my" area and do their own NRB. I also commend AIS/Dave Smith's willingness to attend to such matters - he and his colleagues, having had Thales' rubbish system dumped on them, have been struggling manfully to get it at least half way decent ever since.]

By the Way, getting a NRB is only one of the things you should do before flying. You should also call the AIS Information Line 0500 354802. The info line briefs you on mandatory restrictions like TRA's and temporary airspace upgrades. A quick phone call before your return will ensure that you don't fly through an emergency TRA that may have been initiated after you left home. These are commonly set up for major incidents like train crashes or police investigations.

Chris N.
[edited to say - wrote this while Mike was posting his.]

[gpn01]

Feedback appreciated chaps - Didn't realise that pre-flight briefings don't apply post-event (which is a pity as it'd be a useful way of seeing what was/wasn't NOTAM'd).

Also handy to know about the R numbers - will remember that for future reference.

I'll also suggest that when the NOTAM's are printed off at our club (done daily and pinned to the wall for all to see) that a call should be made to the AIS Information Line for any last minute updates. All useful stuff, cheers.

[Kolibear]

The 0500 354 802 number is still operational, well worth a check, and it's free!

Not necessarily true if called from a mobile. I've just tried it & received reply along the lines of 'the amount you will be charged for call this depends upon your orange service provider'.

Other providers may provide a free call.