How to search for a job?

[Epsilon minus]

the http://www.aviationjobsearch.com
Has been unavailable all week. Have they gone bust?

[KiloMIke]

Had the same problem here and emailed them yesterday to ask.
This is the response but still unable to access the site:
It is up now but it's waiting to be propagated around the ISPs on the
web.
Regards
Matt Farrah
Group Sales Manager
Interactive Recruitment and Training Ltd
[email protected]

[Hairy Hound]

I would be interested to hear how everyone else is searching for their ideal job, whether it be chasing an airline or turboprop job, or the smaller charter and air taxi positions.

I am referring to web sites, advertisers, periodicals and allsorts of other sources of information. A central database would be good but would probably make it all far too easy.

There are a couple of obvious places to look but I guess that it would be quite possible to apply to a restricted number of companies purely because you are not familiar with the industry.

Thoughts and insider knowledge welcomed!! Time is ticking away! :} :ugh:

[no sponsor]

Well I've been filling out application forms on the internet, but after 12 months, no luck there. Have recently adopted phoning people, still no luck, but it's got to be better than having some filter applied to your application form because you are wrong colour, age, school, toenails etc.

Others have just sent their CVs to everyone, but this mass mailing doesn't seem to really work - at least I've not heard it has.

Knowing someone seems to be the key. Everyone I know who has got a job, bar one, has known someone to recommend them which has led to a job offer.

Good luck. It isn't easy.

[Hairy Hound]

Hi No Sponsor,

That does seem to be what I have found. Ive been mailing for an eternity, changing this adding that.

Very catch 22 as well.

Good luck with your endeavours.

[Desert Budgie]

You are at a much greater advantage if you are able to look beyond the borders of your own country, from my experiance anyway. People who I trained with from all over have found jobs in Africa, Asia, South America sometimes even just as a safety pilot on single pilot ops and moving onto a Caravan or King Air, building invaluble turbine time. Those shiny 737s and Turboprops are often a lot closer once you pass that 1000Hr mark.

The problem many people have are liabilities in their home country, I hate to say it, but a house, family etc who cannot afford the main breadwinner moving abroad to make a pittence. If you don't have any liabilities, try and set aside a budget and possibly go on an extended vacation, knock on doors in the back of beyond and you might get lucky. Even if its just bags of rice in the back of a 172, your still flying. Then keep on applying to the airlines back home.

For many smaller operators in the UK your efforts may be fruitless as insurance requires you hold a minimum amount of hours before you can fly with them. Quite often Around 5-700TT 300ME, give or take. Flying abroad is an excellent way of matching these requirements then get back to Europe so your on the doorstep to the big fellas.

DB :ok:

[inner]

Very strange. I don't have any responsibilities here: not married (not even a girlfriend) no house, no debts and i've tried to apply across whole europe, asia, and the middle east. It does not have to be a jet for me. Well even then still without a flying job. So i guess "luck" is still a very important factor.

good luck

[Desert Budgie]

Your right, it is a question of luck. But like I said before,

If you don't have any liabilities, try and set aside a budget and possibly go on an extended vacation, knock on doors in the back of beyond and you might get lucky. Even if its just bags of rice in the back of a 172, your still flying.

Sometimes thats the way to do it. Knock on doors, these small operators only tend to hire if you are actually on their doorstep. For example, a French guy I trained with went to Kenya and flew C206's off dirt strips. He flies 737s for AirAsia now. A Kiwi guy flew 172's around Zambia (i think) and flies B1900s in New Zealand now. Another guy went to Botswana and flew surveyors in and out of mining areas and now flies a 747 for MK. Those guys got bored of waiting in their home lands so did like a backpacking jobsearch, like a student would do after finishing their A-levels. One month here, 2 months there, it wasnt easy, but once they got talking to people it finally paid off.

There is no guaruntee but if your at your wits end at home it could be worth a go.

DB :ok:

[Hairy Hound]

All sounds like good and sensible stuff. It has certainly helped with Europe opening up a little, so allowing those with JAA licences to work more freely.

No doubt it will be swings and roundabouts, but do you find that Africa tends to rely more on the FAA licenses or JAA?

Still very difficult tring to get the first few hundred hours multi and that can also trap you in the air taxi industry for longer than you might think.

One minute you dont have enough multi time and the next, you have an air taxi mindset and too used to working on your own, ie not multi crew, so your profile is wrong again for the airlines.

I am certainly considering things further afield now, hopefuly to find something very enjoyable as well as something that will stand me in good stead for a good development base.

I would be very happy to find a company where I can settle and develop within but maybe there are more stepping stones to go through yet.

Happy hunting folks!

[low n' slow]

I found that mass-applying with the minimum amount of energy per application was not for me.

Instead, try to pick one airline or operator and really focus och that airline, give them a call and ask who you should send your CV to. Send it in and call a couple of days later to follow up that they have it. If it's not a blank no, then try to follow up on any leads they give by giving them a call now and then. You really dont have to have anything to say, they know what you want and will most likely lead the conversation. This has been the case in all calls that I made in search of a job. In cese they don't want you to call, make sure you're not aware of it at first contact!

Just pick an airline, in general, the turboprop scene is hotter than the jet-scene right now so just pick one and give them a call and take it from there.

/LnS

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Randomly sending CVs almost NEVER works.

Phoning is better, because even if they don't have a job, they'll end up knowing who you are providing you don't call too often and you're friendly. So when hiring is approaching, you'll not only send the CV to the right person, but at the right time.

But if you really want to get chances:

1) Get a job dispatching/crewing/etc at an airline that DOES promote from the inside if the person's right for the job. EZY don't. BMI do. Eastern do. Do your reasearch! Most of the time it'll mean working for a third party, like Menzies or Serviceair. What matters is face time with captains. DO NOT try and shove your CV down their throat before you start knowing them. Be a bit patient. Once they like you because you're doing a good job, it'll be easy to get your CV put on the right desk.

2) Work at a small airport close to a big airport. Or even better, at the GA base of a large-ish airport (LPL, NCL, BRS, etc). Chances are, there will be some airline pilots who either own their own plane, instruct, examine, etc. Best contacts you can make.

Sending CVs and reading every aviation website out there will drive you insane very quickly.

P

[Hairy Hound]

I think you are right permafrost, it is the ultimate networking technique.

I was looking at the cabin crew positions going with one of the agencies but I just cant see myself in high heels and fishnets..........:ouch: .....yeeowch, who threw that!

I reckon it would be really good fun and a great way of meeting new friends.

Some really good discussion and suggestions, thanks guys.

[avrodamo]

I sent CVs out for 18 months. Not a thing, except a quite impressive file of PFO letters, which propped the doors open in the summer months and provided excellent kindling material for the winter. :}
Two really important things to do:
1. Change your game plan - If sending out CVs is not working then you have to adjust your plan. Ask yourself what else you can do to just put yourself that little bit ahead of everyone else.
2. Network - It is vital to network. You don't want to be the one stuck in a pile of CVs. You want to be the person who has been personally recommended by someone, which again puts you back at point 1. You stand out from the crowd.
It worked for me. I networked like mad, and have made some great friends, many of which work for major airlines. It's a small world and many of them know each other too. I changed my plan and paid for my type rating. A recommendation was put forward by a Captain I know, and after a 1 hour interview I had a right hand seat job in a 737.
I am no brain box, and I'm 36 years old, so probably not what you would call exactly what the airlines are looking for. Thing is it worked for me. Alot of it is down to luck for sure, but a great deal of it is also down to decisions I made and the people I know. I am always amazed at how helpful other pilots are to assist in getting someone on the first rung of the ladder. :ok:

[Hairy Hound]

Hi avro

Really glad to hear that you made it. It is a long struggle whichever way you go but it makes it all the more worthwhile when you get there.

As far as networking goes, maybe the next question is apart from the little bit of networking that I have done, how do I get to meeting more people. It certainly isn't going to be achieved by instructing in mickey mouse backwaters at an airfield that noone has ever heard of.

I am literally applying the methods in this post as we speak. It is certainly broadening my horizons, changing my perceptions and general train of thought and the method is developing too. All good stuff!

[avrodamo]

Networking is difficult to get started. Your networking has to start really with people you perhaps trained with. I had a couple of friends who got airline jobs, and I kept in regular contact with. They would speak to people within the airline who they knew, and I would then get speaking to them. I would never miss an opportunity. Going out for a drink with one of them was usually good, as they would then see someone they know from the airline and introduce me, and then I would explain my tale. Almost always they would give me their mobile number and keep me informed what was going on. These people then start talking about you in other circles, and your name starts to get mentioned. It took quite a while, but within a year I had alot of contacts. I would keep in touch with all of them. Don't pester, but keep them updated. They will always tell you what’s going on too. Another important factor here is they provide you with huge support, when you feel like it's all going pear shaped and never going to happen. In addition they have some great ideas of different ways to improve your chances. When I was thinking about doing a SSTR I spoke to lots of these guys. They gave me such good advice. It was not just about should I should I not. They helped me decide what aircraft type would be best, what establishment would be best to do the training etc etc. Without that help I doubt I would have been able to make the best decision, and doubt that within 4 months of finishing I would have a jet job.
If I can help in any way PM me.:}

[sam34]

HELLO!

I have two questions :

What do you mean about "networking ?" sorry, i am not english, I don't understand...

- it is possible to know how many pilots unemployed, statistics etc ? are there lot of pilots unemployed in UK ?

thanks!

sam

[papazulu]

What do you mean about "networking ?"

Making "friends", mon amì. As simple as that...and very true. Unfortunately for those with "roman" ancestors like me, you and the spanish folks is more of getting into a "family" in the pure Francis Ford Coppola style. I hope you understand what I mean...In UK who you know is the best trick you have to win this game, still networking and fair playing work.

However on both sides of the Channel, and around the mare noustrum there are exceptions...which is nice and encouraging. Keep going.

Wish you all good luck

PZ:ok:

[sicky]

Making friends with people enough for them to help you get a job is not an easy thing to do though.

Also don't get the wrong idea and only make friends with people to get yourself a job!:=

[fredtheanorak]

If anyone's got any brite ideas how a shed jock might get back in gainful employment other than going to Africa I'd be delighted to hear.:ok: Theres only so much instructing kamikaze PPLs a man can take:{ :{

[sam34]

one thing i don't understand...

I have read all above, and in PPrune, I can see that some pilots, citizen UK, do not find a job. Ok it is not easy, but you speak english no problem, the quality of a course in UK is high, you send many CV's all in Europe, World I thnik, but nothing! comapnies ask TR, many Hours, etc etc so all the pilots have got 200 hours before to start no ?
If all the companies ask thousands hours, Where we Fly to start ?? i have read lot of things about Afrique, USA, UK, France, China etc etc :

afrique : heavy experience

USA : without green card = nothing or to find an american girlfriend! :cool:

UK : i think there are lots of opportunities, but a lot of students too...

France => dead and if you do not know a friend, captain friend => dead too
ok Air France hire some cadets pilots, but it is very difficult...like CTC I think.


China = yes people say "they look for FI, Pilots, they Hire a lot! etc " but when I see the conditions : F/O must type rated, 500 hours on type, 1000 hours on type. " flight instructor must 500 hours of instructing etc"

I think it is the same problem in all the world, each country ask differents conditions. Some people from UK say in this forum " go to an other country, they hire" and in France I hear " go to UK, there are lot of companies! they hire"
Really ??
So it is prove we always think that it is better elsewhere... :rolleyes:


Then each pilot, student, friend...has his advice. Nobody say the same thing.
For example when you will reply at my message, guys will say " yeah, thera are oportunites if you are motivated !!" Other will say " No, if you do not get money = no job"

I think more you read advice more you can not choose the way to take for becoming an airliine pilot.

For example I would like getting a rating FI. and I can read " the majors do not look at your experience on single engine!" and other " yes you can have a good experience and up your hours".

So a forum is for people "talk" between them, give advice, help etc.
But I wonder if it is really good...
But it is the same thing in the life in fact. One day you see a mate who says you "I will do a type rating finally...I don't find a job!" and you see an other mate "do not do that!! if not guaranted job".

excuse my english, I hope you understand what I mean.

I do not criticize it is just a note what I read.
I am a student pilot like lot of other students pilots who wonder in wich world I live, everyday I wonder which choice making, who listenning, how much spend money, where to go, where to fly with low hours,...etc.

thank you!

sam

[Piltdown Man]

You have to kiss a lot of frogs! Unfortunately, this bit is more difficult than getting the bits of paper. Best of luck.

PM

[scroggs]

Luck, persistence, luck, determination and luck are the qualities you need.

Scroggs

[Mercenary Pilot]

Luck, persistence, luck, determination and luck are the qualities you need.

and also a bit of luck. :ok:

[papazulu]

Experience id the name we give to our mistakes...
Might be Luck the name we give to our successes? I wonder...

Also don't get the wrong idea and only make friends with people to get yourself a job!

Not completely true, I am afraid. Ask to our Spanish or Italians collegues. Sad to say but a lot of monkeys got their RHS thanks to a padrino. Many other went scrogg's route, but that's life...

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

......and a bit more luck

[chief]

Ok, I never thought I'd find myself doing this as I never write on PPRUNE, only read through the threads and weap! However, I am now no longer sure what to do.
I qualified approx 3.5/4 years ago. I got the shiny CPL licence. I had managed to achieve what many people thought I'd never do. I had wanted to be a pilot since the age of 5 and overcame extreme finiancial vulnerability with family being made bankrupt and no real financial security. To cut a long story short I worked my ass off for many years and saved money, met a great bank manager who was sympathetic with my cause and finally managed to gain my CPL at the age of 26 years old. The only unfortunate thing was that I obtained this when the UK went to war with Iraq and the were more pilots on the dol than there were jobs available. Basically no jobs is what I am trying to say!
So I had to diversify a little after passing my IR. I started working in a completely different industry as I had to live and get myself back on track. 3 years later I have worked my way up in my current company (not airline related) and manage a number of people and developed my managerial and people skills (I am sure this is what airliners would look for and not the bog standard frozen ATPL with 200 hours).
The only thing is, I so want to get into flying again. I can't become an instructor as the pay is too bad and have debts, a wife, a mortgage that I need to be responsible for; I can't take time off work to look for a job as I need to earn some money. I can't drop everything and join CTC academy as I have been recommended by so many people, as the cost is tremendous - I know I am an excellent pilot and manage to keep my IR running (well give or take a few months here and there) and know I have a lot to offer any future Airline employer but just don't know what to do.
Everyone talks about the demand for pilots is great and so many people are getting jobs - I suppose you have to be "in it to win it!"
I really am now at my witts end. I network and do all I can but just don't seem to get anywhere. If anyone can offer any advice or encouragement then I would really appreciate it. I am always the first to be extremely positive and gave all my flying buddies encouragement but now just feeling extremely p*ssed off with the whole thing as it just seems to boil down to money.
Sorry for winging but would appreciate anyone's help!

[Hairy Hound]

I dont think that anyone finds this easy at all, whichever route you take. The goalposts are always moving and soif you have a family in tow and all the other normal life things going on, it does make life excrutiating.

I as no doubt as many others have done, have gone down the self improver route, regularly missed the peak demand through insufficient experience or wrong type of experience only to find that when I have gained it, there has either been a world wide glut of pilots, a downturn through catastrophic events or some other reason.

Regularly, people on the forum encourage you to keep trying. There will be a way of doing this if it really is what you want to do. It becomes an inbuilt drive that motivates you through the hardest of times.

I truly beleive that the industry is as alive as I have ever seen it. I have an age issue at 46 and I find myself getting interviews all over the place.

I am qualified to instruct at all levels but this is still piston hours and wont be what is required by many outfits. I believe that the experience counts when the s**t hits the fan but that is only my opinion and may not be that of many others.

I think that there are many jobs going at all levels but also many applicants and luck will play a significant part as well as recommendations etc.

I reckon that we all feel that what we are doing is crazy from time to time and if a psychologist got hold of us would probably bar us from a flight deck for life (in fact crayons might get limited).

It boils down to what makes you happy and sorting out perceptions from reallity when stress and compulsion to become "" drive all the sanity from us.

You have to ask yourself if you are prepared still to continue the slog with no guarantees and bear the price or whether you already have what you are looking for in terms of quality of life.

If you are still compelled to carry on, you couldn't pick a better time to give it another go. It may take quite some financial risk and no doubt many have tried and failed with disastrous consequences.............choices............decisions....... .yada yada!

I think that the best advice I could give is to focus on what is really most likely to come to fruition, however with the industry in its current state, who knows what you might get.

What are your experience levels? :)

[Hairy Hound]

Just seen the location, Nebraska! There are so many positions going through climbto 350. Is there no joy there?

[low n' slow]

My advice to anyone: Read the book "the alcemist". If you recognise yourself in it you will know what to do and what it takes.

It takes luck and a bit of guts to do what others don't.
/LnS

[chief]

Hairy Hound,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. Its really appreciated. However, whilst reading your post I just received an e-mail (twice) from Thomas Cook to say thanks but no thanks. I don't know why they had to send it twice, probably to ensure they provided double the pain!?

I have a mere 250 hours. Most (if not all) of these hours were carried out 3.5 years back. I have only recently started flying again as PUT as opposed to a passanger with a mate at the flying controls.

[avrodamo]

Chief. This all sounds very familiar! By just simply sending out CVs or filling in on-line applications it will result in a large collection of PFO letters. You have to make yourself stand out from the crowd. I was in exactly the same boat as you. Wife, 2 kids, mortgage, job etc etc. It was a nightmare. Thing is you have to do something. I’m not saying you won't get a job, but you are the same as countless CLP/IR pilots with 200 odd hours. I could not give up my job to instruct. Same reasons as you. You have to adapt it then. I found a great flying school that would let me work part time. I instructed on my days off. It built my hours, and improved my networking. Getting time off for courses was also difficult. What I sorted at work is that I would work some of my days off, to build days off that I could take all at once. Don't get me wrong, your wife will need to be pretty understand as I was practically a stranger at home sometimes. I would walk in the dog would growl at me, and the kids would ask the wife who the strange man was in the kitchen!;) It did make the difference though. It started to narrow down the numbers, I was now in a slightly smaller pool of CPL/IR pilots who instructed. Your networking has to be quality networking, with key objectives. It’s no good just saying "I know Bob, and he’s a pilot at BA". Realistically this would not achieve anything. However, if Bob is best mates with the Chief Pilot at a turboprop airline and is playing golf with him on Tuesday, where they are discussing the pilot turnover at the moment, well there you go. You have to raise your game. If I can give you any steers then please PM me.
It is all a real test of your mental strength and ingenuity. Get it right, and you will secure that elusive position. Remember it's just one lucky break. It might take a few years to get, but that is all you need. :}

[dartagnan]

It might take a few years to get, but that is all you need. :}

took me over 10 years just for a jet interview!:ugh:

[v1r8]

Chief -

Here is some advice for ya.... LEAVE NEBRASKA :D ;)

All kiding aside, 200 TT won't get you anywhere in the US... Flight instruct, get your 1000 TT and your good to go to Pinnacle/SkyWest/ASA etc etc

V1.

[flyhiguy28]

Jesus,

All seems like bloody hard work to me.

I'm thinking of taking what experience I have and going off to some far flung land to be a bush pilot or something like that. But then again i'm not married or mortgaged up large. It seems like it would be a laugh!

Also thinking of perhaps getting my CPL(H) and flying Heli-Skiiers around.

Anyone know any companies which specialise in this sort of stuff?

[Saul]

G'day everyone

First of all i'd like to appologise if this has been asked before but i looked through the boards and couldnt see it.

I've got a UK and NZ passport and recently moved back from NZ with a full CPL/IR with the promises of "better oportunities" for fresh minimum hours pilots, i only have 400 hours of which 50 are multi. I also hold an OZ CPL and have a diploma in aviation.

I'm currently doing the ATPL theory and have made arrangements to get my full JAA frozen ATPL and MCC by March and i suddenly thought how much of what i have been told is true (stupid i know, but too late now eh)

What is the job market here like? Is it really possible to find myself on the flight deck of a 737 when i finish my conversion in March, or am i doomed to live in debt forever chasing false promises!

If the market isn't as bad as all that which airlines take minimum hours pilots and how do i go about getting my name heard, i hear Ryanair does but looking into that it looked like a nightmare.

Any help would really really be appreciated.