Epaulettes

[loewy]

Hi all !

Let me first defuse the comments of the (very few) cynics around here: getting my JAR-PPL has been a significant investment, a major intellectual effort and a substantial time investment. I am very proud of being a PPL holder. And now the terrible part... : I would like to wear 'epaulettes' or shoulder bars.

Feel free to bash if it makes you feel good.

My question is whether there are any formal or tacit rules re: epaulettes for non-professional pilots. I don't want to wear four-stripes; that's not the points. But what do 1 stripe and 2 stripe mean, for example ?

Any help or direction would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

L

[mcgoo]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229566&highlight=epaulettes

[loewy]

Thanks mcgoo !

Interesting and helpful reading.

L

[Pitts2112]

Loewy,

Presuming your post was a serious one:

Congratulations and welcome to the community! Gaining your PPL is absolutely an achievement to be proud of and to be celebrated. You've put a lot of money, time, and emotional investment into it and the day finally arrives when your license comes in the post! You've got every justification for wanting people to know what you've achieved.

But (there's always a but, isn't there?), if you're a PPL and just flying as a hobby, can I suggest finding another way to display your achievement? Maybe something less conspicuous like a PPL lapel pin or something like that?

Wearing epaulettes will make you a target of merciless harassment and derision; not only from the non-pilots in your life but especially from your flying peers. Wearing of epaulettes by formal flying schools, like Cabair, is seen in the PPL community as a bit poncy but understandable as they're training future airline pilots and want to start them out on a professional track. But you'll get no slack from other PPLs if you wear epaulettes just to go and rent out the club PA28 and, in fact, they may think you a bit of a tw*t. It's just not done. I'm just trying to save you some agro here but feel free to wear them if you really want to.

As to what they mean, there is no "standard" as they are very much a company thing. BA uses silver (they'd have you believe it's Platinum :rolleyes:), 4 bars for Capt, 3 for Sr 1st Officer, 2 for 1st Officer. Virgin use gold for, I think, similar rankings. The meaning varies completely depending on what any one company wants it to mean.

Enjoy your PPL!

Pitts2112

[loewy]

Thx pitts...

My post was indeed serious, as is your helpful reply.

Good landings,

L

[Mercenary Pilot]

Well...If your going to insist on wearing bars:yuk::rolleyes::= You need to know the "rule"

Bars in the bar...its your round!

[Say again s l o w l y]

You'll have the p*** taken massively (and correctly in my view!).

I can't think of a good reason for wearing them in a PPL environment other than as an ego massaging device.

Pitts2112 has given you the "rank" that the different bars mean, but as a PPL, you have as little right to wear them as you do to term yourself Captain away from the a/c.

In an airline, they are worn to denote rank since you have more than one member of a crew. In private flying, there is only one pilot, so obviously they are the "captain", so therefore there is no need for differentiation, since the only other people in the a/c are "passengers" and they certainly don't need to wear rank insignia.

Wear wings if you want,afterall you are a licenced pilot and have earned these, but airline insignia should be left to airline crews. Personally I have always taken off my bars as soon as I left the airport since to me they become meaningless away from the job.

[Human Factor]

Congratulations on gaining your PPL. It's a great achievement and one to be coveted.

Keep in mind the following though. Some of us wear varying numbers of bars for our jobs (three for me). The aeroplane I fly for fun requires me to wear a knackered old RAF grow-bag to keep to keep the oil off (and stop me burning if it all goes horribly wrong), which is badgeless. There are a number of people I know who are infinitely better qualified than I, who turn up at the club looking infinitely more worn than I (most of whom wear four bars for a living and I defy you to pick the out in them flying club). :E

One in particular, I've seen in T-shirt, Bermuda shorts and a very suspect hat.:eek: (He used to instruct on Hawks and has been kind enough to teach me a thing or ten, so he's forgiven - apart from the hat) :D

If I could be so bold, you don't need bars unless you're earning a living and your passengers expect to see them. The bit of paper and the fact you can fly an aeroplane ought to suffice, 'cos that's the whole point.

Isn't it? :ok:

PS: If you're going to fly round the world a few times (a la Polly Vacher), four bars open a few doors in Africa, in which case we'll let you off. ;)

[Chilli Monster]

If you wear bars you'll have to wear the shirt that goes with it - in this weather the wet patches under your arms are going to show really well ;)

Leave the uniform to the professionals. Like others I have to wear them when flying professionally. When I fly for myself it's meant to be as a hobby and fun - so you wear what's comfortable.

For your own self esteem and confidence - don't do it! The minute you screw up in your first 100 hours of flying (and you will) then any semblance of sympathy anyone might have is going to disappear when they see the epaulettes, and be replaced by a lot of snide remarks.

[Mercenary Pilot]

http://www.libertybellmuseum.com/MuseumShop/images/8547epaulettes.jpg

If your gonna do it...do it properly! :ok:

:rolleyes:

[SparkyBoy]

http://www.libertybellmuseum.com/MuseumShop/images/8547epaulettes.jpg

If your gonna do it...do it properly! :ok:

:rolleyes:


:D
Hilarious!


I can just see me turning up in Joes bar at Biggin Hill wearing that :ouch:

[ericferret]

A number of years ago a (sadly long dead) helicopter engineer Terry Rowarth was having problems getting access to a Spanish airport where he was working.

He purchased what could best be described as an Argentinian band masters uniform.

Approaching the airport he was roundly saluted by all and waived through!!!

Which brings to mind the story previously published on this site of Chris Beltons epic flight over the Alps in a Donny aeroclub 152 straight after getting her PPL.

Wanting to look the part while flying a club aircraft she wore uniform style dark trousers and jumper e.t.c.

While visting the ladies at a French airport she was mistaken for the lavatory attendent.!!!!!

In some countries every job comes with a uniform!!!

[AerBabe]

(most of whom wear four bars for a living and I defy you to pick the out in them flying club).

I can't even pick them out in a professional setting! Has been the cause of a couple of slightly embarassing moments (I've got one very thin bar). Fortunately, I'm the only one who's been embarassed and it's never been serious...

loewy - I think it's all been covered and hopefully you're not considering wearing bars any more. As has been said, there are some far more subtle alternatives. Please though, don't opt for a massive set of embroidered wings on your chest! And if you do buy an Irvine jacket, don't wear it in a Cessna! I've got one, but mostly use it for driving my MG Midget... Keep it discrete, or keep it away from the airfield.

[Windy Militant]

The best thing to wear is that wry little smile that you just can't stop creeping onto your face from time to time when the realisation of what you've done slides gently into your brain. ;)

[eharding]

The aeroplane I fly for fun requires me to wear a knackered old RAF grow-bag to keep to keep the oil off (and stop me burning if it all goes horribly wrong), which is badgeless.

Nice silk scarf though, eh HF? :E - although maximum jeering levels were reached recently when big Jon C appeared in the bar wearing his green romper suit, not realising that his mother, bless 'er, had laundered the thing and then ironed a fantastic pair of creases down the front of the legs.....

[Pitts2112]

Wanting to look the part while flying a club aircraft she wore uniform style dark trousers and jumper e.t.c.
While visting the ladies at a French airport she was mistaken for the lavatory attendent.!!!!!
In some countries every job comes with a uniform!!!

Reminds me of the time, as a newly minted 2nd Lt in the USAF, my then-girlfriend was returning from holiday and I went to the airport in uniform to pick her up (thought she'd like that...which she did). Turns out the plane was delayed and a bunch of us were standing next to the gate to welcome relatives (which you could do in those days) when one of the other welcomers turns to me and casually asks why the flight was delayed. I told her I didn't know (not knowing any more than she did). She got icy and a bit haughty and said accusingly "Well, you work for the airline, don't you?!", at which point her husband started laughing, took her by the shoulder and led her away, winking at me, telling her "No, dear, he's in the Air Force." I thought it was funny watching her turn all kinds of shades of red.

Pitts2112

[tom775257]

Ahh the fun of pilots uniforms = security guard. I was in Sainsburies the other day, when someone got annoyed with me and a few other pilots with me because we couldn't tell him where the charcoal was. When we said "sorry we don't work here.' he looked confused for a while, then angrily stated "What are you doing here then!" Shopping....

My course partner and I decided to rebel against the need to dress up like security guards during our CPL/ME/IR, so we purchased and wore the "security" epaulettes.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Loewy...just don't.

Those of us who have to wear uniforms when at work for our airline hate it...or the older of us do.

I delight in wearing the daggiest shorts and REALLY old, worn out uniform shirts when I fly my own aeroplane...the only reason for the pilot shirts is the number of pockets and a pen pocket...and I don't care if they get oil on cause they just get further relegated to boat shirts when they are too disgusting for aeroplane shirts.

You will be roundly and rightly ridiculed..mostly behind your back...who wants that?

[S-Works]

My course partner and I decided to rebel against the need to dress up like security guards during our CPL/ME/IR, so we purchased and wore the "security" epaulettes.

I refused point blank and wore shirts and t-shirts every day. My money I chose how to spend it. When I did the IR test with the CAFU examiner I was told I would have to wear a uniform and tie. I wore my usual atire and sdtill passed first time.

The last thing I wanted on a day that was 36c was to be wearing a shirt and tie in a spamcan!!!!

12yrs in the RAF was enough uniform for me. Even going to the officers mess bar in the evening had a dress code!


Enjoy the freedom of being a PPL and and cut your own style!

[AerBabe]

Speaking of the public and uniforms ... Where I used to live, I had a five minute walk from my flat to my car. On one occasion, while wearing my RAFVR(T) uniform (same as a 'normal' RAF officer, but with a gilt 'VRT' pin in the rank slides) I was asked whether I was in the Salvation Army. Minutes later someone mistook me for a parking attendant and asked whether he would be okay to leave his car parked on the double yellow lines. :rolleyes:

[Mercenary Pilot]

If your going to wear the epaulettes, you may as well wear the whole uniform :ok:

http://images.biafranigeriaworld.com/BNW-Muhammadu-Buhari-Chinua-Achebe-Foundation-2.jpg

[AerBabe]

Everyone needs a good hat:
http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/photos/raf.jpg

[Flash0710]

You may also like to try.......

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/mace.jpg

and perhaps a......

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/lib_sq_2_5163_300x470.jpg

But i would strongly advise you not to trust your compass......:E

luv

f

[AerBabe]

It might be eaten by one of these:
http://www.wtv-zone.com/Hahnsflyboys/dog/lionD5.jpg

But you should have one of these to fend it off:
http://www.lyneham.raf.mod.uk/images/news/fullsize/Sword-2-small.jpg

Alternative headgear:
http://www.towhey.com/images/German%20military%20helmet%205.gif

[Mercenary Pilot]

http://www.para-gear.com/CATALOG/PICTURES/headgear/bonehead/M3TCLOSE.1.jpg

This will look perfect when flying in your 150 :ok:

[airborne_artist]

But this would attract the ladeeeez

http://i15.ebayimg.com/05/i/07/64/fa/43_1_b.JPG


http://i22.ebayimg.com/05/i/07/68/d4/d6_1_b.JPG

On one occasion, while wearing my RAFVR(T) uniform (same as a 'normal' RAF officer, but with a gilt 'VRT' pin in the rank slides) I was asked whether I was in the Salvation Army. Minutes later someone mistook me for a parking attendant and asked whether he would be okay to leave his car parked on the double yellow lines.

Jolly lucky no-one asked you to start their car as well - many an RAF officer has been mistaken for an RAC patrol person.

[Mercenary Pilot]

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/110757main_sts114_thomas_portrait.jpg

Check this guy out.....When you pass your IMC, you get to wear this!:D:D:D

[Pitts2112]

Aerbabe,

I really like that helmet! That's just what I need to keep from bashing my head on the canopy at the top of most maneuvers I spill out of. Think it's possible to rig it up with a boom mic?

Pitts2112

[AerBabe]

If you can't fit a boom mic to it, I think the Tie Pilots' helmet comes with one built in:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/bingo275/menuTIE.jpg

[Mike Cross]

Pitts

You didn't see the Pioneer with the split canpy that crashed on landing at Popham a couple of years ago then?

Inbound from Belgium I think it was, hit turbulence crossing the coast, head hit the canopy, which split across its width with the back section opening up to form a big air scoop. Ran out of elevator authority and ended up doing the shortest landing I've seen on 08 (around 10 metres ground run).

We picked it up and carried it off the runway and it was back about 6 months later following repair.

AB
You're not going to post THAT picture of someone in uniform are you?

[AerBabe]

AB
You're not going to post THAT picture of someone in uniform are you?

What ... this one? http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/angel3.gif

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5645/dsc01156crop5jv.jpg

[Mike Cross]

Attractive thought that is, I suspect Fournicator's baser instincts would be better stimulated by Adam's pic. (although come to think of it, Fourni's baser instincts probably require sedation rather than stimulation);)

You look very trim!

Mike

[the_daddy]

Although slightly off topic, this would probably save a few head injuries if you encounter turbulence.... Might put the CG off a little though :) Bet you could find a smashing pair of epaulettes to go with it...

Loving the randomness of this post... Has kept me sane this afternoon!

http://www.westsea.com/tsg3/tridentlocker/mvpixlocker/MKV1.JPG

[markflyer6580]

if you wear epaulettes just to go and rent out the club PA28 and, in fact, they may think you a bit of a tw*t.

Thats not as bad as people who fly 152's etc whilst wearing a flying suit a'la fast jet jockey. To$$ers:}

[Human Factor]

You may find the arguments relating to whether or not you should wear a flying suit are somewhat different.:rolleyes:

That's also been debated ad nauseum here too.

[EGBKFLYER]

http://www.afeonline.com/shop/datasheets/clothing.pdf

Check out p57 - might be just what your're looking for.

[Mercenary Pilot]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k99/flyingphoto/1083642.jpg

All set for your sunday afternoon jolly, and your girlfriend has come too :D

[Pitts2112]

Loewry,

See what I mean? See how this has gone? And you haven't even worn epaulettes yet. Best can the idea, I think...

Pitts2112

[Pitts2112]

[QUOTE=Mike Cross]Pitts
You didn't see the Pioneer with the split canpy that crashed on landing at Popham a couple of years ago then?
QUOTE]

No, I haven't been at Popham that long. Just moved into the neighborhood last August. Nice place, Popham. Glad I'm there. Now if we only had a few more Pitts.....

Pitts2112

[IO540]

I haven't read the whole thread but there are places in Europe, Barcelona being one of them according to info I got in 2005, where turning up wearing a commercial looking pilot uniform gets you tax free avgas (about 1/2 price).

In most of Europe you can get tax free avgas on production of an AOC, and forging a piece of paper can't be that hard. Nobody is likely to check it, either.

[kevmusic]

When my wife & I hire one of Blakes's finest to go boating on the Broads I wear a nice Captain's cap which looks really smart, with plenty of gold braid. Unfortunately no-one salutes me. Furthermore, I have seen many other Captains on the Broads and no-one salutes them either. Worse, they don't seem to mind! There's just no respect these days. So I have given it up. (Now if those little gift shops would only sell Admiral's hats................)

[ChampChump]

Some years ago, when I'd recently acquired a Commercial glider rating (ah, don't you just love the USA), it was decided for me that a good wind-up for certain club bores, beloved of their flying overalls, would be the sight of me in flying overall, complete with my bars from the day job (merchant navy). Joe Public's reaction as I was introduced 'this is ChampChamp and she'll be your instructor today' was amusing...but, better still..
...... it had the desired effect.:E

[wsmempson]

I think that uniforms are great, everyone in the Village People wore one..... seriously though, unless you had to wear one - would you?

[Regis Potter]

A recent PPL holder at my club rented a C152 & flew to his wedding proudly sporting an RAF flying suit & a pair of rather white leather gloves. Curiously, in the wedding photos after the event, he was pictured outside the church wearing.....an RAF flying suit & white leather gloves :D

Bet the bride was impressed.

[Flash0710]

i find being well endowed reason enough not to sing about it.....:E

[markflyer6580]

i find being well endowed reason enough not to sing about it.....

You have got your name in big letters on the side of your yak mr flash:} :} :} :p

[Flash0710]

You have got your name in big letters on the side of your yak mr flash:} :} :} :p

A point well made there Sir.

There are always other ways..........:cool: :suspect: :p ;) :E

Take box 2 for example.......:E :E

Hugs

f

[theresalwaysone]

Lowey first of all congratulations on your PPL

As a seasoned veteran professional pilot can i tell you that a lot of people will laugh at you and your epaulettes. Some people take rank very seriously and its intersting to see that most who do have major social problems-- i will give you some examples--

My first job was as a co pilot and i had two rings i was very proud of them i liked to be accidentally seen in them if you know what i meant-- my pal at the time bet me £20 that i wouldnt wear my uniform to a night club in Birmingham.
I was a bit hsitant at first but £20 was a lot of money so off i went. During the evening a young lady came up to me and said in a very broad Bham accent "Excuse me are you a fuxxing sailor" ive never forgotten that and nevr worn my unifrom outside an airport since.

around 20 years ago there was avery odd fellow who was the manager of an airfield near Stratford upon Avon, an ex bankrupted second hand car dealer, a complete knob head if you know what i mean. i flew in an Aztec one day and he said to me and i quote word for word I AM GLAD TO SEE YOU ONLY HAVE 3 STRIPES AS YOU ONLY HAVE A CPL-- I mean what had it got to do with him anyway even if i had stripes up my chuff but no this knob head always had something to say-- a typical airfield no all that new nothing--he even told me he was going to be checked out to fly the Vulcan that was on the airfield!!! a long with starting a service to London City with Otters I could write several book on the dick heads i have met in flying.

any way i digress this is my favourite

I did a charter to southend nad when the two punters returned to the aztec they were legless, could hardley stand. as i started the enigines they strated making various comments about the age of the aircraft etc. as i taxied out oine said this pilot has had a argument with his wife hes siuicidal and he is flying us home oh no(all druken bolox!) then one said to the other--hey hes only got three stripes, Capatains have four ask him why-- this was repaeted several times until i got to the holding point when one of them finally siad CAPTAIN you have only got three stripes-why? I turned calmy around to both of them and said I crashed an Aztec and killed 5 passengers and they took a stripe off me-- they both fell back into the seats and nevr moved or spoke again all evening!

My favourite is the liverpool night stop-- one particular captain always liked to stop for a drink after flying but in a local pub. this particular night we were staying in a hotel on the edge of Toxteth and its a brave fxxker that goes out there after dark-- any way the captain stops in the hire car at this very seedy lloking pub and the FO and himself take thir bars off just leaving thier ties and white shirts and go in. The whole pub stops, they carry on up to the bar and Dave asks for two pints of bitter . the landlord says fxxxk off you bastards we dont serve coppers and actually threw them out.

night everyone

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Poor old Loewy has run for the hills!

[Rallye Driver]

Don't bother dressing up like the President of Bongobongoland. :rolleyes:

If you want to be in Our Gang this is the cutting edge pilot's apparel you'll need... :cool: :}

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/Flash.jpg

Then you'll be really flash! :E :E

RD :ok:

[rightbank]

And if you wear a uniform/epaulettes, the general public will expect you to know the precise location of every toilet in every airport terminal in europe. Excuses like "this is the first time I've ever been to this airport" will be met with a complete look of disbelief.

[Flash0710]

Rallye,

I'm so pleased you found my aeroplane cleaner. Tell him when you see hm again to get his bally hair cut...:uhoh:

f

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Hey guys, dont jest, it happens......

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1048092/L/

Sliding canopy = Fast Jet maybe?

[eharding]

RD,
As the photograph shows, our heroic 52 driver has recently returned from the magical time & place in Flat Middle Earth when for one glorious weekend, all you have to do is pitch up in a Yak, jump out wearing your greasiest flying suit and hordes of scantily clad tot will ply you with food & drink and generally throw their underwear at you.....which is nice, particularly as I'd left the pitot cover behind, and one young lady was kind enough to supply a fine example of the aforementioned garment to wrap around the 52's pitot. Safety first, that's my motto.

[Flash0710]

Is this the type of Tot you are talking about, EHarding of Berkshire UK?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/06153.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/06152.jpg

Gosh it took soooo long to strap er in....:E

[eharding]

I remember at the time thinking she would look much better wearing a set of epaulettes....:ok:

[Flash0710]

Can't believe i asked her if she had anything in her pockets......:p

f

[Mike Cross]

One is reminded of this bit of video. (http://www.fhm.com/site/webtv/video.asp?id=164) No epaulettes evident there either.

It seems churlishly pedantic to point out that a Tiger Moth is perhaps not a "World War II fighter plane".

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ref the young lady climbing in the Yak.

Cooorrrr....now if she played her cards just right I would let her.....:E

[pulse1]

I saw him and Yak at Compton Abbas last week - had a big burly bloke with him then.

[Rallye Driver]

That's why Yaks have got a "Snot Valve", so you can blast all the gunge out after you've used it. :E

Somebody mentioned Loewy going awol - maybe he's having an epaulettic fit! :eek:

RD :ok:

[markflyer6580]

I can't believe that whilst that very tasty young lady is flaunting herself,Flash is looking at his phone:confused:

[Flash0710]

I had a lot on my plate that weekend. She was def b team material.:E

RD Excellent but "groan"

Slippery ones

f

[eharding]

I had a lot on my plate that weekend.

Aye...but it was mostly that fflafell....phlaaaaphel.....er, hippy stuff health food in a wrap, squashed & toasted...I got back to WW, and ordered the steak, raw & twitching.

[Flash0710]

Eatin's cheatin Dude....;)

[smith]

I am a PPL but am trying to build hours, if I go for a potter around I just wear any scruffy old get up, if I go for a long cross country I usually wear jeans and a pilot shirt. Dunno, by just putting on the shirt gets me in the flying mode and puts me in a mode where I am more concientious about accurate, disciplined flying (bearing in mind I do intend going to CPL).

Maybe I do get sneered at behind my back but I think it works for me in my flying.

[AerBabe]

One of the air cadets on camp with me this summer claimed he couldn't shoot straight unless he had his beany hat on. :rolleyes:

[Cusco]

One of the air cadets on camp with me this summer claimed he couldn't shoot straight unless he had his beany hat on. :rolleyes:
Is that some kinda condom, AB ?
Cusco:=

[markflyer6580]

She was def b team material

Was this bikini excursion for some lads mag type shoot or do you just have a not too shy girlfreind:}

[Flash0710]

Mr M,

A gentleman never tells:E

f

[Flash0710]

But is this the burly bloke wiv me mutt?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/28062006002.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/28062006.jpg


And which non too shy girlfriend?????

f

[MLS-12D]

Loewy,

If you want to wear epaulettes, then go for it. They are meaningless props, and you are no more and no less entitled than the 747 drivers are. At the end of the day, the airlines the pros work for are simply private companies, and have no special status to award ranks or similar designations ("Captain", "First Officer", etc.).

People will laugh at you. Well, big deal. There are many things in aviation that you must take seriously; but you don't have to take yourself seriously. To show that you know it is all a bit silly, you might go for the novelty five-stripe epaulettes that you can order from AFE.

Wearing epaulettes is childish, self-indulgent ... and ultimately harmless. The same can be said of recreational aviation as a whole. Have fun and fly safely.

[Auster Fan]

What ... this one? http://www.cybergifs.com/faces/angel3.gif
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/5645/dsc01156crop5jv.jpg
I have to say that the current female RAF No 5 uniform is one of the most hideous things ever designed, only slightly worse than the previous version, which was bad enough!

[lobanski]

Although i'm not a fan of uniforms they do have their benefits.
while waiting for the crew bus in the lobby of a hotel in White Plains, a lady approached, gave me her bag and asked me to place her bag in the waiting cab. Most enjoyable and easiest two bucks i've ever made.

[AerBabe]

I have to say that the current female RAF No 5 uniform is one of the most hideous things ever designed, only slightly worse than the previous version, which was bad enough!

Really? I quite like it! Except it makes my bum look pointy. :suspect:

[Maxflyer]

Really? I quite like it! Except it makes my bum look pointy.
Judging by the look on his face, Uncle Albert is quite happy with your pointy bum!;)

[S-Works]

Blimey it almost makes me want to drag out my Mess Dress.....:p

Aerbabe were you half cut or just angry in that picture!!!

[IO540]

That's a very stern look! Wouldn't mess with her, in or out of the uniform!

[AerBabe]

Aerbabe were you half cut or just angry in that picture!!!

Actually, I'm smiling. Just in a quarter cut sleepy kind of way. PMC told me it was Mr Vice's job to drink all the port, so I tried to.

[S-Works]

I do miss the mess days Putting the CO's mini on the roof after a Battle of Britain Ball............

[Julian]

Dont do it!!!
The fact others will see you walking round with your flight gear will let them know you are a pilot - you will be laughed out of most clubs....

Aerbabe, couldnt really see your smile, maybe if you shaved we could see it better :}

J.

[Champagne Anyone?]

Dont do it!!!
The fact others will see you walking round with your flight gear will let them know you are a pilot - you will be laughed out of most clubs....
Aerbabe, couldnt really see your smile, maybe if you shaved we could see it better :}
J.


JULIAN,
you're out or order! You should refrain from posting if you can only throw insults about.

[Julian]

Thats what smilies are for CA.

No offence intended :)

J.

[Consol]

Once had a dispatcher who loved his stripes too much and seemed to have loads of them. One skipper borrowed the F.O.'s three to add to his four and added both their wings, one on each shoulder before heading out to greet him...

[kevmusic]

JULIAN,
you're out or order! You should refrain from posting if you can only throw insults about.

CA where's your sense of humour? :ugh: I thought Julian's little sally rather witty :D

[OpenCirrus619]

... Julian's little sally...

http://www.wdcra.org.uk/images/vtca2.jpg

Or is that really too abstruse?

OC619

[Flash0710]

Look closely she IS smiling.....;)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/beard.jpg

[777fly]

Epaulettes have no place in the non-professional aviation environment, they are only relevant to vocational aviation.There is nothing to stop you wearing them, but in your PA-28 they are seriously uncool and could only be an ego trip for you. Be proud of what you have achieved, but don't wear your own medals.

[DenhamPPL]

I beg to differ with the majority of replies on this thread. I think most PPLs are a messy lot and could benefit from wearing a nice ironed white shirt, tie and those stripey things on their shoulders.

All the instructors at the "training organisation" opposite where I am learning to fly wear propa white shirts and epaulettes. I yearn for the day when I to can wear mine with pride as I carry my shiny leatherette Jeppesen type flight case up to my PA-28 with a gaggle of dazzled girlies (and boys!) "oohing" and "aahing" as I mount my shiny steed (and then climb into the aircraft).

Also means you can charge an extra 20 quid an hour for instruction!:ok:

[Auster Fan]

Really? I quite like it! Except it makes my bum look pointy. :suspect:
I'm RAFVR(T) as well and none of our female officers wear the No.5, preferring evening dresses instead. Are you sure that is port??!! Looks like madeira to me from that photo!

[AerBabe]

Tasted like port. :suspect:

[Cricket23]

I think that the beard looks good on Aerbabe, but as for the badly drawn one on the other person in the photo............!!:eek:

[Flash0710]

Hi guys.....I'm a friend of flash and was at the party where the photo of him and the cute girlie was taken........being one myself, I can vouch that all the birds are top quality there, but flash is guarding his territory - or at least trying!! So I just had to join in this one - sorry Loewy but I come from serious flying genes and like a bit of tiger moth aerobatics every once in a while.....getting back in to flying with flash's help.

My father would take the piss something chronic out of anyone who used epaulettes and the rest.....just give it up and get off on the sheer joy of flying......but i reckon by now, you've got the message. Enjoy x :ugh: ;)

[crystaljules]

Hi guys....By the way, I am the girlie who is flash's friend.:cool:

[Flik Roll]

I beg to differ with the majority of replies on this thread. I think most PPLs are a messy lot and could benefit from wearing a nice ironed white shirt, tie and those stripey things on their shoulders.

All the instructors at the "training organisation" opposite where I am learning to fly wear propa white shirts and epaulettes. I yearn for the day when I to can wear mine with pride as I carry my shiny leatherette Jeppesen type flight case up to my PA-28 with a gaggle of dazzled girlies (and boys!) "oohing" and "aahing" as I mount my shiny steed (and then climb into the aircraft).

Also means you can charge an extra 20 quid an hour for instruction!:ok:

You cannot be serious....

:{

[AerBabe]

I think that the beard looks good on Aerbabe, but as for the badly drawn one on the other person in the photo............!!:eek:

Yes ... thanks for that, Flash. Watch out for the M'dget with sudden brake/steering failure if you're around the Weald on Sunday! :}

[Flash0710]

I think this chap could be related to Lowey:suspect:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/Noblelordflash/19082006002.jpg

Thanks for posing for me.....


f.

[ormus55]

all right then, who pinched the red carpet?
before the first sea lord arrived!

[DenhamPPL]

You cannot be serious....

:{

Of course. Deadly serious:ugh:

[MLS-12D]

I'm RAFVR(T) as well and none of our female officers wear the No.5, preferring evening dresses instead.
Good analogy. Mess dress on a cadet leader is very similar to epaulettes on a PPL: pretentious, but perfectly 'legal'. And both affectations are quite harmless.

[S-Works]

I think you will find she may well have been Mr Vice and therefore a certain expectation of a uniform..............

[9238RJ98]

Oh, how I've giggled through this. :D

[MLS-12D]

I think you will find she may well have been Mr Vice and therefore a certain expectation of a uniform..............
RAFVR(T) members attending mess dinners are permitted to wear No.1 service dress with white shirt and bow ties / neck tabs. There is no requirement to purchase or own No.5 mess dress.

[S-Works]

Well having only been the "real" thing I am uncertain on RAF VRT etiquette but I see no harm in it.

Was your point to humiliate her for taking an active role?

[MLS-12D]

Nope. I'm not interested in humiliating anyone.

As I said in my previous posts, if someone wishes to wear military trappings (mess kit, epaulettes, ceremonial daggers, whatever), it's entirely harmless. Some people may laugh (make that will laugh), but so what. Like the Rick Nelson song "Garden Party" says, you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself.

[Flash0710]

Nope. I'm not interested in humiliating anyone.
As I said in my previous posts, if someone wishes to wear military trappings (mess kit, epaulettes, ceremonial daggers, whatever), it's entirely harmless. Some people may laugh (make that will laugh), but so what. Like the Rick Nelson song "Garden Party" says, you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself.


hmm self pleasure.......

:E

[AerBabe]

Good analogy. Mess dress on a cadet leader is very similar to epaulettes on a PPL: pretentious, but perfectly 'legal'. And both affectations are quite harmless.

I think you misunderstood. The reason many female RAFVR(T) officers and NCOs wear evening dress rather than Mess Dress is because they don't like the Mess Dress. Nothing to do with feeling pretentious in it.

Yes I was Mr Vice, did think it was a good idea to wear Mess Dress for the occasion, and will continue to do so. I worked hard as a Civilian Instructor, worked hard to get my commission and continue to work hard as an officer. I wear my uniform with pride.

[S-Works]

I think you misunderstood. The reason many female RAFVR(T) officers and NCOs wear evening dress rather than Mess Dress is because they don't like the Mess Dress. Nothing to do with feeling pretentious in it.
Yes I was Mr Vice, did think it was a good idea to wear Mess Dress for the occasion, and will continue to do so. I worked hard as a Civilian Instructor, worked hard to get my commission and continue to work hard as an officer. I wear my uniform with pride.


Good on you aerbabe. :ok:

There is a big difference between earning a commission VRT or Regular and bunging some gold bars bars on a shirt. My mum still has my commission hanging on the wall and I left 12yrs ago!

I am glad that you are proud to be putting something into society which is probably more than can be said of some of the snipers. Enjoy.

[AerBabe]

Aww, shucks. :O

My mum doesn't have my commission on the wall ... 'Cos it still hasn't come! :\
(She does have copies of my Cranwell group photos though.)

[Genghis the Engineer]

The 5-gold bars are sold I think by AFE, to allow people who are forced to wear white shirts and appaulettes to extract the urine about it.


I once helped somebody ferry an Islander back to Bembridge from Bucharest - I was along as flight test engineer, the pilot was a chap well known in GA circles, but also Chief Test Pilot at Britten-Norman. Given that the aeroplane was just out of the works, draughty, full of sharp bits (no trim fitted yet) and not all that clean, I wore an old RAF flying suit. Perfectly serviceable (and at FL120 over transylvania, my Irvin was great as well). My colleague on the other hand wore a white shirt and gold bars - it was very very noticeable how much more assistance and help he got from the various airport officials as we stopped en-route across Europe.

So, they have their place.....


But not for PPL club flying.

G

[rodthesod]

My colleague on the other hand wore a white shirt and gold bars - it was very very noticeable how much more assistance and help he got from the various airport officials as we stopped en-route across Europe.

So, they have their place.....


But not for PPL club flying.

G

I agree entirely with GTE. We used 4 bars on our Rothman's flying overalls on occasions to ease our passage through certain airports and past certain officials. As an airline captain I had to wear the bars and again they were almost as valuable as passports when faced with officialdom. I always removed mine outside of the airport or whenever travelling as pax with any airline including my own.
On the other hand, you could supplement your bars with a forged licence and logbook and con your way into a 747 command with BA or AA - it seems to have been done before.:E
rts

[Wrong Stuff]

My colleague on the other hand wore a white shirt and gold bars - it was very very noticeable how much more assistance and help he got from the various airport officials as we stopped en-route across Europe.

So, they have their place.....
I was talking to someone the other day who'd done a lot of flying around North Africa and one of his recommendations was to wear gold bars. He found it made a substantial difference to the way he was treated. In retrospect it probably would have saved me a grilling from immigration about aircraft ownership and my finances when I stopped in Tunis. Nevertheless, it still seems a little strange to wear them in a SEP.

[Gunner82]

Did see a chap in bone dome and Crab baby grow in a 172 at Duxford crowd very impressed. Have memories of a subbie who had rather a fine view of his single pip and all the power attached , taken out by the Sgts. Mess for the evening in Hamburg, came back with tattooed pips and a dreadful hangover.

Old Gunners Never Die They Just Drop Shorter

[phillpot]

Ive just read through this post and it reminds me of something that happened to me a couple of years ago.

I quite often do a/c deliveries and ferry flights moving the little puddle jumpers around between flying schools and engineers etc, this particular evening a Warrior had just had its 100hr and needed to go to it home airfield I was given a call and asked if I could go up in an Arrow and pick up the guy delivering it I turned up to the airfield in jeans and a polo shirt smart casual if you wish, when I got there I had to wait for the other pilot and wait and wait and wait by now time was becoming an issue we were going to a grass strip and dusk was rapidly approaching.

Eventually epaulette boy (as I fondly named him) turned up in full uniform we didnt speak before the delivery but on the way back I asked
"who do you fly for?"
"no one " came the reply
"oh its just I saw the uniform" I said
"Its cost me alot of time and money to get this licence and I want something to show for it"
still giving him the benefit of doubt I asked if he had been flying elsewhere earlier his reply came
"no I was mowing the lawn when to call came"
he had changed especially to carry out a 20 min ga flight making us late in the process I found it very hard not to take the p***s but decided not to.
To refer to the original postee well done for getting your PPL please please dont wear epaulettes := get your respect and reconition from becoming a safe and competent pilot and not by wearing accessories.

[MLS-12D]

Sigh ... I'll try again.
I do not believe that RAFVR(T) members are bad people, or that they have anything to be ashamed of. They help children learn about flying and the military, and I'm all for that.
I suspect that most people would agree with the following propositions:
(1) a PPL has a pilot license, but nowhere near the amount of knowledge, skill and experience as that of an ATPL;
(2) an RAFVR(T) member has a commission, but nowhere near the amount of knowledge, skill and experience as that of an RAF or RAuxAF officer.
There is an apparent double standard between an RAFVR(T) member wearing mess kit - which people seem to think shows commendable enthusiasm - and a PPL who wishes to wear eppaulettes - which people seem to think is completely beyond the pale. Personally, I think that both are rather pretentious, but (as I've said repeatedly) harmless ... anyone who wants to do either won't get an argument from me.

[S-Works]

<<There is an apparent double standard between an RAFVR(T) member wearing mess kit - which people seem to think shows commendable enthusiasm - and a PPL who wishes to wear eppaulettes - which people seem to think is completely beyond the pale. Personally, I think that both are rather pretentious, but (as I've said repeatedly) harmless ... anyone who wants to do either won't get an argument from me.>>

But we do seem to be getting a lot of repeat arguments from you on this.....

Which service did you earn your commission in?

Well I have a full RAF Commission (Ret'd), and one of the new fandango CPL/IR thingies and don't see any double standards in someone who gives of there time and energies to support the youth of today and hopefully help keep them off the street away from murdering children and taking drugs, wearing the mess dress or any other form of dress they are perfectly entitled to.

I see nothing wrong with a PPL wearing as many gold bars as they please allthough I thing it looks damn stupid as they climb from a 152 .....

[Genghis the Engineer]

To my amusement, I just noticed the following banner advertisement had appeared at the top of the page...


Parking Attendant Uniform
Huge Range - Uniforms & Accessories Request our comprehensive brochure



Interesting what happens when you start talking about a subject!

G

[AerBabe]

(2) an RAFVR(T) member has a commission, but nowhere near the amount of knowledge, skill and experience as that of an RAF or RAuxAF officer.

Maybe not ... but it's interesting when you talk to regulars that most of them say they couldn't do what we do. At the end of the day, I'm a commissioned officer, same as them.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Maybe not ... but it's interesting when you talk to regulars that most of them say they couldn't do what we do. At the end of the day, I'm a commissioned officer, same as them.

You are trained to do your job, they're trained to do theirs. One hopes that there's sufficient mutual respect that everybody recognises that - if there isn't, something's wrong.

G

[AerBabe]

You do occasionally come across a regular who snubbs you, refuses to salute etc. However, that is very very rare and most are kind, helpful and professional.
Similarly, I've dealt with VR(T) officers who need a good 'talking to'. :rolleyes:

[beamer]

I used to know a truckie Flt Lt who purchased a set of 'gold bars x 4' which he would occasionally don down route in Africa, Asia, Australia etc - apparently worked wonders when things needed doing in a hurry !

PPL's - epaulettes - er ...........no !

[hobbit1983]

Sigh ... I'll try again.
I do not believe that RAFVR(T) members are bad people, or that they have anything to be ashamed of. They help children learn about flying and the military, and I'm all for that.
I suspect that most people would agree with the following propositions:
(1) a PPL has a pilot license, but nowhere near the amount of knowledge, skill and experience as that of an ATPL;
(2) an RAFVR(T) member has a commission, but nowhere near the amount of knowledge, skill and experience as that of an RAF or RAuxAF officer.
There is an apparent double standard between an RAFVR(T) member wearing mess kit - which people seem to think shows commendable enthusiasm - and a PPL who wishes to wear eppaulettes - which people seem to think is completely beyond the pale. Personally, I think that both are rather pretentious, but (as I've said repeatedly) harmless ... anyone who wants to do either won't get an argument from me.

Hang on - a RAFVR(T) officer has his/her stripes presented to him/her on commision, by the Armed Forces. Yes, to spend evenings/weekends training kids, but they still have a commision. They are therefore required to wear their stripe/stripes/braid etc.

But a PPL doesn't get awarded any form of uniform, so therefore any PPL wearing stripes is doing so for their own reasons. Whatever they may be! They can wear whatever they want - but wearing lots of stripes to look like a 747 captain (or whatever) when in reality all you're doing is flying a Cessna 152, PA-28 etc strikes me as rather silly. Unless you're Polly Vacher, which a lot of people aren't.

As for mess dress - if you're in the mess, shouldn't you wear....mess dress? Most VRT officers have to buy their own DPM (green) kit, it's not standard issue AFAIK and not mandatory. Would you therefore argue that a VRT officer on exercise, out in the fields, with his/her cadets, wearing suitable gear which is OPTIONAL is pretentious? They'd look silly in blues.

Hobbit (PPL, never with stripes, and ex-RAFVR(T)! - one small blue stripe with the chaos pin)

[AerBabe]

Greens are still not standard issue. NCOs can usually get hold of them, but officers have to use the kit that's issued to cadets...
There's a poster on the wall at Cranwell, says something like:
Chaos =
VR
T

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Aww, shucks.

My mum doesn't have my commission on the wall ... 'Cos it still hasn't come!
(She does have copies of my Cranwell group photos though.)

So correct me if I am wrong, you spend 5 days at Cranditz, ponce around for group photo's fill in some paperwork, errrrrm, bit of classroom maybe then what a commssioning scroll?? hardly the same as the 24 now 30 odd week course is it???

Fair enough, you do a good/thankless job with cadets et al, however there are a few around the bazaars who regard themselves with a little too much importance.

On the subject of saluting, I would love to see the audacious (Virtual Reality Officer) individual who pulled someone up for not saluting them.....now that would be a larf.

Back to the original question about epaulettes, then any PPL'er who wears 'em should be debriefed accordingly, after all you need to do 20 odd hours and a few exams to drive a car, and I don't see anyone wearing formula 1 racing overalls to nip down to ASDA. It is nothing short of pretentious and a rather sad reflection on the individual........

[airborne_artist]

DS

Your beef has been done to death on a thread on the Mil forum. The consensus was that VR(T) do a good job (just like everyone else in Betty's Services), so long as they don't then lard it around the few remaining RAF bases waiting for salutes, clicking their fingers at Mess stewards etc., which very few do.

I'd suggest that most of the VR(T)Walts are apocryphal, and are largely the invention of blunties who desperately want someone below them in the light blue pecking order.

[S-Works]

Oooh Sanch, I detect bitter and twisted here..... one of the recent graduates of IOTC were you?

You are the ones who had it easy, in my day the training staff were actually allowed to shout at you....... ;)




So correct me if I am wrong, you spend 5 days at Cranditz, ponce around for group photo's fill in some paperwork, errrrrm, bit of classroom maybe then what a commssioning scroll?? hardly the same as the 24 now 30 odd week course is it???
Fair enough, you do a good/thankless job with cadets et al, however there are a few around the bazaars who regard themselves with a little too much importance.
On the subject of saluting, I would love to see the audacious (Virtual Reality Officer) individual who pulled someone up for not saluting them.....now that would be a larf.
Back to the original question about epaulettes, then any PPL'er who wears 'em should be debriefed accordingly, after all you need to do 20 odd hours and a few exams to drive a car, and I don't see anyone wearing formula 1 racing overalls to nip down to ASDA. It is nothing short of pretentious and a rather sad reflection on the individual........

[hobbit1983]

So correct me if I am wrong, you spend 5 days at Cranditz, ponce around for group photo's fill in some paperwork, errrrrm, bit of classroom maybe then what a commssioning scroll?? hardly the same as the 24 now 30 odd week course is it???
Fair enough, you do a good/thankless job with cadets et al, however there are a few around the bazaars who regard themselves with a little too much importance.
On the subject of saluting, I would love to see the audacious (Virtual Reality Officer) individual who pulled someone up for not saluting them.....now that would be a larf.
Back to the original question about epaulettes, then any PPL'er who wears 'em should be debriefed accordingly, after all you need to do 20 odd hours and a few exams to drive a car, and I don't see anyone wearing formula 1 racing overalls to nip down to ASDA. It is nothing short of pretentious and a rather sad reflection on the individual........
Why would VRT officer training (the whole week of it) be equal to regular IOT anyway? The job of a VRT is basically to look after children, not get deployed to fight or support a war.
You'll get idiots in all walks of life, yes there are walts in the VRT, posing, but the ones that stay do it for the cadets. And that's what the VRT course is for - to equip you to be a (uniformed) youth leader. The good VRT officers don't ponce around at Cranwell, they try to learn as much as possible (and take advantage of the low mess bar prices :ok: ).
To get back onto subject! Yes PPL with stripes look silly unless they have a good reason. 'Nuff said. I think you'd probably find that those have them are the same sort of people who join the VRT so they can wear a uniform.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Mr Bose

Likewise old bean, not a recent graduate at all. Also, had plenty of shouting in my direction.

Merely commenting on some of the individuals I have encountered, and as I said, most do a good albeit tough job, however there are always going to be a few that make the lot look like a bunch of idiots. That can be said about any group though......

My point was, a commissioning scroll like the one wot real hofficers get seems a little tenuous for VR(T) guys who spend not very long at Cranwell. I guess it is just all about credibility, a bit like getting a degree from some bolleaux uni/poly!!!

Monsieur Artiste, I agree with your sentiments about the REMF's!!!

[youngskywalker]

Seems to be an awful lot said about what people wear or ought to wear on pprune! Personally I couldnt care less if a PPL dresses like Admiral Nelson. If I recall correctly the ATPL does not have a ratings page that includes the right to adorn 4 gold bars any more than the PPL one does! Those with the vanity issue are most likely those who look at themsleves the most in the mirror...

'All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night awake in the day to find it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.'
TE Lawrence

[AWYRCYMRY]

Ahh the fun of pilots uniforms = security guard. I was in Sainsburies the other day, when someone got annoyed with me and a few other pilots with me because we couldn't tell him where the charcoal was. When we said "sorry we don't work here.' he looked confused for a while, then angrily stated "What are you doing here then!" Shopping....

My course partner and I decided to rebel against the need to dress up like security guards during our CPL/ME/IR, so we purchased and wore the "security" epaulettes.


i have had the same experience in marks & spencer (wearing a blue pilots shirt). i was waiting for my girl-friend to come out of the shop (i was waiting by the main entrance) and an old lady said to me "your not doing a very good job as a security guard by looking at your phone", :rolleyes: at that point i burst out laughing and she said she was going to make a complaint about me, so i had to tell her who i was and what i was doing>>>;) ;) :hmm:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I have a set of four gold bars somewhere that I use in places like Africa to get through customs and all the other crap that is necessary to get past bureaucracy.

However once I get done with that I take them off and put them back in my flight case.

I would feel like a real w a n k e r wearing them in public. :E

[Flash0710]

If i could be arsed to give up my valuable drinking time i would only help out as a CI. Hairy trousers are just not my bag......:\

f

[MLS-12D]

Which service did you earn your commission in?
Canadian Armed Forces. I spent 15 years in the naval reserve, as a maritime surface officer (R71B). So what?
Well I have a full RAF Commission (Ret'd), and one of the new fandango CPL/IR thingies.....
Congratulations. :rolleyes:
I see nothing wrong with a PPL wearing as many gold bars as they please, although I thing it looks damn stupid as they climb from a 152
Agreed. And I feel exactly the same way about someone who's taken a one-week quickie course wearing mess kit.
Fortunately, neither you nor I are in charge of the world; so our opinions are no more and no less valid than anyone else's.

[precession]

I'd like to thank all who contributed to this discussion, it has been a delight to read, I'm giving it 5 stars! :D

[AerBabe]

Err ... thanks.

And thanks Flash, for your kind offer. There's a chance that a squadron may be moving to our favourite airfield, which would mean less of your drinking time taken up in travelling. You heard it here first!

[Rallye Driver]

But he'd need to get his hair cut! :{ :E

RD

[Flash0710]

No Need!!!!!

I have a lovely lovely strip 2 miles down the road so if they do go to " Tussauds from hell" its of no consequence.

As for a hair cut........:suspect: :suspect: :suspect: :suspect:

f


Edit to realise in the early light of day you said "a" and not "the" It would be good for the place to have some life in it tho..........

[markflyer6580]

I seem to remember from my forces days that those with long hair could tie it up in to a 'bun' arrangement,that may be a ladies only rule but you might start a trend:} :}

[Flash0710]

When i used to be a chock i mean Air Cadet i used to have my hair undercut and then just shoved it all under the beret. Got rumbled as i was the only Cadet who never took his beret off on parade nights....:{

f

[Godgetswings]

The best thing to wear is that wry little smile that you just can't stop creeping onto your face from time to time when the realisation of what you've done slides gently into your brain. ;)


I couldn't agree more, very well put.
I have, just two days ago passed my PPL and I consider it to be one of the most incredible things I have ever tried to do and I can't help feeling warm inside everytime I think of the examiners words when he let me know I had passed the Skills test! "Ok CAPTAIN, lets go home" Nuff said!

What a great day! But it would be fun to wear some bars for a while too! DOH! just to let people know how hard you worked to get it!

[Godgetswings]

Lowey first of all congratulations on your PPL

As a seasoned veteran professional pilot can i tell you that a lot of people will laugh at you and your epaulettes. Some people take rank very seriously and its intersting to see that most who do have major social problems-- i will give you some examples--

My first job was as a co pilot and i had two rings i was very proud of them i liked to be accidentally seen in them if you know what i meant-- my pal at the time bet me £20 that i wouldnt wear my uniform to a night club in Birmingham.
I was a bit hsitant at first but £20 was a lot of money so off i went. During the evening a young lady came up to me and said in a very broad Bham accent "Excuse me are you a fuxxing sailor" ive never forgotten that and nevr worn my unifrom outside an airport since.

around 20 years ago there was avery odd fellow who was the manager of an airfield near Stratford upon Avon, an ex bankrupted second hand car dealer, a complete knob head if you know what i mean. i flew in an Aztec one day and he said to me and i quote word for word I AM GLAD TO SEE YOU ONLY HAVE 3 STRIPES AS YOU ONLY HAVE A CPL-- I mean what had it got to do with him anyway even if i had stripes up my chuff but no this knob head always had something to say-- a typical airfield no all that new nothing--he even told me he was going to be checked out to fly the Vulcan that was on the airfield!!! a long with starting a service to London City with Otters I could write several book on the dick heads i have met in flying.

any way i digress this is my favourite

I did a charter to southend nad when the two punters returned to the aztec they were legless, could hardley stand. as i started the enigines they strated making various comments about the age of the aircraft etc. as i taxied out oine said this pilot has had a argument with his wife hes siuicidal and he is flying us home oh no(all druken bolox!) then one said to the other--hey hes only got three stripes, Capatains have four ask him why-- this was repaeted several times until i got to the holding point when one of them finally siad CAPTAIN you have only got three stripes-why? I turned calmy around to both of them and said I crashed an Aztec and killed 5 passengers and they took a stripe off me-- they both fell back into the seats and nevr moved or spoke again all evening!

My favourite is the liverpool night stop-- one particular captain always liked to stop for a drink after flying but in a local pub. this particular night we were staying in a hotel on the edge of Toxteth and its a brave fxxker that goes out there after dark-- any way the captain stops in the hire car at this very seedy lloking pub and the FO and himself take thir bars off just leaving thier ties and white shirts and go in. The whole pub stops, they carry on up to the bar and Dave asks for two pints of bitter . the landlord says fxxxk off you bastards we dont serve coppers and actually threw them out.

night everyone

brilliant story about crashing the aztec friend! thank you for making me laugh til my tummy hurt !