Does Cpl Clegg get exonerated now?

[cazatou]

Given the news that NO individuals will face charges over the shooting of an innocent man at Stockwell Underground Station; is it not time that Cpl Clegg of the Parachute Regt is formally exonerated for carrying out his duty at a VCP in N Ireland?

[movadinkampa747]

Surely Cpl Clegg,s conviction was quashed and he was prommoted to full Cpl. I think you would be bettter putting this on ARRSE.

More of an army thing this one........................

[MrBernoulli]

Perhaps it is of interest to military aviators because of the wider implications: the flurry of law suits against military folk just trying to do their jobs in very trying circumstances?

[bradfordboy]

According to the news the Police are to be prosecuted under the Health & Safety Act.

How stupid. Everyone knows you should wash your hands both before AND after a shooting.

[maxburner]

So, you hold down an innocent man and pump 7 bullets into his head and NOBODY gets charged with manslaughter or murder. British justice at its very finest.

[BellEndBob]

An absolute shambles. The Police cocked it up from start to finish and the idiots with the guns lost control IMHO. SEVEN bullets? Not only should there be charges but some of those in so called charge should be sacked as well.
British Police Service, what a joke. :mad: :*

[South Bound]

Easy sat here chatting about it, isn't it? Not quite so easy when your comms is rubbish and you are having to decide whether or not someone is going to blow up a train load of people is it?

As for 7 bullets, how many would you use if you had to make absolutely sure the bloke was dead and couldn't operate any devices?

My thoughts are with the family, but also with the plods that did the deed, it was not their decision, but it will live with them for ever...

[BellEndBob]

A suicide bomber with no bag/backpack, bulky clothes etc. The mistake was made and compounded way before the comms went.
7 bullets is a total loss of self control, period. Go to jail, do not pass go.

My thoughts are with the family as well. I hope they hound the police through every Civil court in the land.

[South Bound]

Think I would be fairly hyped up if I was standing next to someone that I thought might blow me up any second. I'll give the shooter the benefit, but someone needs sacking higher up...

[maxburner]

Yes, the Police have an unenviable job to do, sometimes under enormous pressure. But, when a private soldier shoots a man at a check point in Iraq he has an army of human rights lawyers hounding him into court. The police have chosen to operate a shoot to kill policy, there was, it seems, reasonable doubt that the man was a terrorist, the comms equipment was bad, the training sounds inadequate, there was doubt amongst those there that he was a suspect and yet, they allowed him to enter a train deep underground where their comms were of no use and pumped 7 bullets into his head. He was innocent. Someone should be held to account. Whitewash.

[movadinkampa747]

Blimey it didnt take long for this thread to change direction..........What about poor old Cpl Clegg that the original thread starter asked about?

[Keg]

7 bullets is a total loss of self control, period. Go to jail, do not pass go.
.

You need to watch the US video where after being shot in the head four or five times by an undercover cop, a druggie who pulled the knife manages to get the pistol off the cop and kills him.

Gotta love the Monday morning coaches! :ugh: :rolleyes:

[cazatou]

Cpl Clegg opened fire when a stolen vehicle crashed through the VCP at high speed injuring some of the soldiers. If he wasn't supposed to open fire then what on earth was the purpose of that, or any other, VCP? As it turned out the occupants were young "joyriders". It was the same CPS that prosecuted him that has decided against prosecutions in this case.

Consistancy?

[maxburner]

So Keg, are you advocating a shoot to kill policy for anyone suspected of being a druggie? Or maybe anyone who looks vaguely Islamic?

That's not the England I signed up to protect and it's not the England that I want to live in.

[Keg]

Geez Max, talk about taking comments out of context. One contributor says that seven bullets is excessive in order to render someone no longer a danger. I'm saying that seven bullets may be absolutely necessary.

I am NOT commenting on the decision making process that goes through a cops mind when deciding whether or not to use deadly force. I am NOT commenting on any other decisions that were made that day. I AM commenting on the fact that once that decision has been made to stop someone (using that deadly force) then nothing is 'excessive'. You keep going until the threat is stopped- or at least that was what I was taught many years ago during my weapons training. The ONLY point I was making is that people can come back from a couple of shots to the head.

Anything else you'd like to take out of context? :ugh: :rolleyes:

[maxburner]

Fair enough Keg, I mistook the point you were making.

MB

[The Helpful Stacker]

CPS - "Why did you fire 7 rounds into the suspect?"

Copper - "Because my pistol jammed".

:rolleyes:

It does seem strange when troops who served in Iraq have their identities splashed across the press and are hounded by the CPS over an alleged murder that had no body, no witnesses and no motive whereas a few coppers who definately need to read up the white card ROE's 'get away' with the cold-blooded murder of an innocent by-stander in a London tube station.

No I wasn't there at the tube station but I've been on top cover in Iraq a in a couple of hairy situations where the first concern that popped into my head was "will I be dragged over the coals if I have to use my weapon here?"

[ZH875]

Jean Charles de Menezes may not have been the terrorist that the police believed he was, but if he had not been an ILLEGAL OCCUPANT of the UK, and had gone home when his 6 month visit Visa had expired, he would still be alive.

Maybe, he was unlucky, but he was still a criminal.

Thankfully, I wasn't in the same position as the cops who had to make the (Right) decision, with no possibly no chance of making a second decision if it had gone wrong.

The sooner the UK gets tough on Terrorists and other criminals the better.

The current state of the :mad: Law in the UK is, IMHO, not worth defending.

And the answer to the original question, Lee Clegg should be totally exonerated and, like many criminals, be given a handsome payout by HMG.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Jean Charles de Menezes may not have been the terrorist that the police believed he was, but if he had not been an ILLEGAL OCCUPANT of the UK, and had gone home when his 6 month visit Visa had expired, he would still be alive.

Maybe, he was unlucky, but he was still a criminal.

Thankfully, I wasn't in the same position as the cops who had to make the (Right) decision, with no possibly no chance of making a second decision if it had gone wrong.

The sooner the UK gets tough on Terrorists and other criminals the better.

The current state of the :mad: Law in the UK is, IMHO, not worth defending.

So being shot dead is a fitting punishment for over-staying your student visa?

Hmmm, Judge Dredd will soon be upon us....

[ZH875]

So being shot dead is a fitting punishment for over-staying your student visa?

Hmmm, Judge Dredd will soon be upon us....

Only if you overstay by several years.:=

Maybe we can start ethnic cleansing, by getting rid of rogue asylum seekers and :mad: Muppets at the same time.

[movadinkampa747]

But what about Cpl Clegg?

[Tombstone]

An absolute shambles. The Police cocked it up from start to finish and the idiots with the guns lost control IMHO. SEVEN bullets? Not only should there be charges but some of those in so called charge should be sacked as well.
British Police Service, what a joke. :mad: :*
In actual fact, Police SOPs dictate that in order to neutralise a suicide bomber, you must shoot him/her in the head 5 times. This is supposed to ensure that he/she is in no way capable of pressing the trigger & taking people out.

Of the seven bullets fired, one missed and one hit the suspects shoulder. The remaining five bullets hit his head as per SOPs. In other words, the armed police officers followed their orders to the letter IMHO.

The guys with the guns entered the underground with instructions to shoot. An order to hold fire was subsequently issued however, due to the fire team being underground, they never received it. That is an acknowledged fact.

It's a nasty case but slating the guys is not going to solve anything. The Police made a mistake this time however, I'm sure they will save many lives on future ops.

[SASless]

Sounds like Cpl Clegg got the dirty end of the stick here!

What is it he was supposed to have done wrong?

Perhaps vehicles that refuse to stop at a VCP should just be waved at and ignored?

[movadinkampa747]

Hello. Cpl Clegg. He was the para who shot at the joyriders in NI and ended up being done for it before his conviction was quashed.........

[Tombstone]

Put it on the Army Forum.

[movadinkampa747]

If you are referring to Cpl Clegg can I remind you of the title to this thread?

[The Helpful Stacker]

At the time of the Cpl Clegg case ROE's in Ulster allowed troops to shoot at vehicles if they were being driven in a way that would endanger you or your patrol. Infact it wasn't that long ago that mainland UK ROE's had such a clause.

[Tombstone]

Thats a very good point however, not being a squaddie, I do not know enough about the incident to offer an educated reply reference Cpl Clegg.

Is he still serving?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

CPS - "Why did you fire 7 rounds into the suspect?"

Copper - "Because my pistol jammed".

:rolleyes:

It does seem strange when troops who served in Iraq have their identities splashed across the press and are hounded by the CPS over an alleged murder that had no body, no witnesses and no motive whereas a few coppers who definately need to read up the white card ROE's 'get away' with the cold-blooded murder of an innocent by-stander in a London tube station.

Still nothing to do with Cpl Clegg but http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=30230/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=240.html maybe of interest/value.

[Summer Twosay]

Only if you overstay by several years.:=

Maybe we can start ethnic cleansing, by getting rid of rogue asylum seekers and :mad: Muppets at the same time.

You can't do that..... the Palace of Westminster would be empty in no time at all :E


Oops spelling a weak point again !!

[cazatou]

Was it not the case that the rules of engagement extant at the time, and adhered to by Cpl Clegg, were not valid under NI Law? Subsequently, it was found that they were not valid under Scottish law either. The rules had to be redrafted and we ended up with different rules depending where you were in UK, and the total nonsense of different challenges by "Gate Guards" dependant on whether their weapon was loaded or not.

The cases are not dissimilar in that the person who pulls the trigger has a right to expect that their actions, in accordance with the orders that they have been given by a superior, are lawful.

If Cpl Clegg had NOT opened fire, would he have been charged with "Dereliction of Duty"?

[Biggus]

It is a long time ago now, and I haven't done any research on the matter, but I seem to remember that the scenario was along the following lines. Cpl Clegg fired several, 3-4 shots, at a car as it approached him and failed to stop. Most of the shots were considered "legal" (for want of a better term) as the car was still appraoching him, but the last shot was considered "illegal" in that the car was now abreast him and going away, hence no longer fullfilling the criteria he was given.

Pretty tough call for a scared 18 year old to make, in the cold and dark, while lawers debated it at length in the subsequent luxury of a courtroom.

Still, my recollection could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time......

[SASless]

Well for all you that have cried there is no prosecution for murder in the subway shooting, you can rest easy as a much worse charge is forthcoming....something about violating HSE regulations! Now that is a fate worse than death in these days and times!:ugh:

[rock_dove]

Given the news that NO individuals will face charges over the shooting of an innocent man at Stockwell Underground Station; is it not time that Cpl Clegg of the Parachute Regt is formally exonerated for carrying out his duty at a VCP in N Ireland?

Good point, just shows the mentality towards the forces as opposed to the Civvy Police, strikes a similar chord to that on the 'Uniform at Airports' thread, gives the impression that the Military is something to be ashamed of. Absolute disgrace IMHO. :*

[cazatou]

We have to remember that the Police Unit that supplied the Firearms Personnel for this Incident was the same unit whose Personnel shot dead a man carrying a self loading,semi automatic table leg in a carrier bag. The information resulting in this action emanated from someone in a Pub!