Crosswind Landings?

[JetMouse]

Hello

I've been flying for a few years now and am still not happy with my crosswind landings (i still can't quite nail it on the centreline each time) and I was wondering if I could pick up some tips from some of you out there...

What would really help is if you could talk through what you would do from turning base till touchdown, assuming lets say a crosswind from the right...

Thanks...

[Mike Cross]

Bounce about all over the place generally:bored:

I have no flaps and a little wheel at the back so this is probably not relevant to what you do but here goes:-

First thing is to get the aircraft tracking over the ground along the extended centreline. There's a couple of ways of doing this and the easiest is probably just to crab it, i.e. point it towards the wind sufficiently to get it travelling, albeit slightly sideways, along the extended centre line.

Next thing that is ESSENTIAL is to get the speed correct and stable. As you descend the wind speed will reduce so you have to compensate as you get closer to the ground, reducing your angle into wind. You may also find your IAS reducing as a result of the wind gradient and have to compensate for that as well.

The next bit is the tricky bit that will determine success or failure. What you want to achieve is to align the aircraft with the runway heading (kick off the drift), flare, and land, all in a smooth and co-ordinated manner.

If the speed is a little to high you will float, the wind will get you and start you drifting to the left, that's why your speed must be spot on.

Here's the sequence:-

Descending towards the touchdown point, nose pointing to the right and tracking the centreline.
As you get to the point where you would flare you simultaneously feed in left rudder to align with the runway heading. The side effect of this will be to raise the right wing so you will need to feed in a little right stick (or yoke) to compensate. You definitely do not want the wind to lift that wing. A Jodel in front of me at Old Buck a few weeks ago had it happen and it spoilt his day and his aeroplane. This is crossed controls and that may be what's giving you a subconscious problem.

Suggest before you try it for real you practice without the crosswind. You want to be able to flare and land without floating, which you should be able to do if you have the speed right. Right speed will vary a little with loading and conditions.

Hope this helps

Mike

[stiknruda]

I really do empathise!

It was not until I had nigh on 200 hrs that I felt comfortable with cross-winds, primarily due to learning to fly in a country with little or light wind and never being allowed to fly if the zephyr became anything stronger!

Am American examiner (ex US Army instructor) straightened me out in two circuits, the first he demonstrated the second, I copied and I've never looked back.
On final, align the aircraft with the centre line - use the ailerons to keep it there (into-wind, wing low), keep the nose pointing at the far threshold using rudder.
Fly/glide the aircraft to the flare point using the controls in the manner described above.
Works for me in everything I've tried it in, from a Cub to a KingAir. In strong x-winds and because the vis is so poor out of the front, I tend to curve the Pitts in and sideslip with the nose into wind - this allows me to see the landing point at all times and a quick "kicking off" of any drift as per Mike's post above does the trick.
Stik

[The green baron]

Thanks for the replys to that question folks. Ive only notched up 8.5 hours (a mere babe) and have been flying the circuit and had nothing but crosswind to deal with. Living in Scotland of course we have the worst possible weather conditions for flying so that helps prepare you for the worst.
Anyway, i will use the advice give and hopefully I will have some rather smoother landing that I have currently experienced.
Many Thanks,
The Baron.

[Lucy Lastic]

Bounce about all over the place generally:bored:

You definitely do not want the wind to lift that wing. A Jodel in front of me at Old Buck a few weeks ago had it happen and it spoilt his day and his aeroplane. This is crossed controls and that may be what's giving you a subconscious problem.

Mike

I fly a Jodel and it is better to use the wing-down approach. Jodels can't take a serious side-load on the undercarriage, so crabbing is not recommended.

In fact in a serious crosswind, the wing-down is much easier.

As Mike says, you need to track the extended centre-line, but the whole approach is flown with crossed controls - into-wind wing down and opposite rudder to keep the nose aligned.

This happens all the way to the runway, adjusting the angle of bank and rudder to track straight.

At the flare, keep the wing down, flare and touchdown on the into-wind mainwheel and tailwheel, and as the aircraft slows, lower onto the second mainwheel.

It does take practice, but get it right, and the feeling of achievement is great - not sure about those odd nosewheel pilots, though

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Lucy,

I don't think Mike was suggesting that you land side ways. Either method, wing down or crab if done correctly will result in you landing on the windward wheel first with cross controls.

As an instructor, I find alot of the time with students and PPL holders that the whole landing and approach is a little rushed because it all feels a little odd. You have alot more time than you think. One thing I see time and time again is people trying to correct the off set nose with the aileron because that is what feels 'natural'. It all takes practice, and if I am honest, like stiknruda, I don't think I really mastered them until I was up round the 200 hour mark, and still having problems 800 hours later ;).

It may be an idea to try and pick a day when the forecast wind is straight across the runway at about 10 to 15kts, and grab an instructor for an hour or so and practice them.

Happy landings!

[White Bear]

My instructor always insisted that with crossed controls i.e. wing low; your stalling speed is higher. His point was: why increase your stalling speed when you’re already low and slow?

He taught me to crab until just before the flare, then use rudder first to align the nose and use as much aileron as you need to hold the centerline until touchdown.

Don’t know if that helps, but ‘yes’ learning it was more difficult than simply dropping the up wind wing and holding the centerline with crossed controls.

I must add that in really strong winds I have dropped a wing for a few seconds on final to ensure I had enough control movement to hold the centerline. One should also bear in mind normally the wind is lighter at ground level than it is higher up.
Regards,
W.B.

[Monocock]

I would suggest that all of the above is good advice.

My personal preference however is "crabbing" until very short finals then I convert this into a wing down method for the last few seconds. I deliberately try to land on the upwind mainwheel and the tailwheel simultaneously. The downwind wheel will make contact when it is good and ready with the stick firmly in your belly and corrective aileron in place.

Nosewheel or tailwheel makes no difference. It works equally well with both.

My hatred for the crabbing method on late fianls is due to a day I remember well when I was landing at Thruxton in a 172. I was crabbing into a hefty crosswind on the westerly runway (northerly grass too wet to use). I cancelled the crab effect when I thought it right to do so and the aircraft floated further than I expected (this is why Mike was saying above to pin the speed accurately). By the time the mains touched I had a forward speed of about 50 kts and a sideways speed of about 3 knots. Doesn't sound much but it made me hit my head on the side windown when I touched down and nearly pulled the tyres off the rims.

There is nothing wrong with landing on one (upwind) wheel in a tricycle geared a/c in a crosswind. I was taught this way by a friend after my near incident and it has never let me down yet. Try it, its easy. It is just like flying into no wind and tracking the centreline is simple

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Retirement is going to get me in trouble...but what the hell I have to be somewhere.

X/wind landings are nothing more than assuring that the airplane is moving parallel to the runway center line and the wheel you touch down is also pointed parallel to the center line.

There are various methods to accomplish this:

(1) Maintain a crab into wind during the approach and flare then just prior to wheel contact apply enough rudder to align the airplane with the center line and immediately apply the necessary side slip control input to insure no sideways drift starts . ( Remember if you are tracking straight down the runway just prior to wheel contact inertia will help keep the airplane moving in a straight line )

(2) Side slip the aircraft to maintain center line and maintain whatever amount of side slip is required to keep the aircraft tracking down the center line, then complete the flare and touch down with sufficient side slip to insure no sideways drift starts..( a rather unorthodox method as far as I am concerned, but helpful in initial training. )

(3) Fly a curving approach to flare and wheel contact from the up wind side of the runway.

Any combination of the above that maintains a zero sideways drift until the landing is completed.

There is no one method fits all airplanes.

I teach all of the above and explain to the student when and why to choose the method that will ensure a zero drift touch down.

It ain't rocket science, however judging from the number of screwed up approaches and landings that occur at your favourite airport it seems that far to many instructors must think it is difficult, or rather their instructors must have thought so. :sad:

Thus all this hand wringing by pilots who are having problems getting the picture.

[DB6]

Baron...living in Scotland...Southampton...don't know about the crosswinds but your nav may be a little dodgy :} .
After extensive research and experimentation I find the best method is a crabbed approach until the last 50-200' or so (depending on aircraft type/speed) then smoothly squeeze in rudder and opposite aileron to align the aircraft with the centreline, wing down, then hold those inputs all the way THROUGH touchdown and roll-out, increasing aileron deflection as you slow down and they become less effective. This means you are under positive control all the way through the approach and landing and not at mercy of your judgement if you kick straight too soon or - whoops - too late. Adopting crossed controls sooner rather than in the flare also gives you a few seconds to refine control inputs. Doing the whole final approach with crossed controls comes under the heading 'Far too much hassle'. The only time I know of that this won't work is in larger jets with low-slung engines but I don't imagine that's too relevant at the moment.

[gasax]

My preference is wingdown. That is mainly due to flying taildraggers where I find it easier to assess just how strong the crosswind actually is.

Yes the stall speed is a little higher - but not much and when it really matters you've got ground effect helping!

However if I cann't maintain the runway heading using crossed controls then its pretty ceretain that if I get onto the ground I'll run out of control authority very quickly and have to rely on the brakes - which often let me down (Auster, Emeraude and Zenith....) no discs!

It also saves having to make heading changes whilst maintaining the pitch angle so it allows all my attention to be focused on putting th ewindward wheel down and holding the centreline.

[deice]

Interesting reading!
I think the combo feels most natural. It's easy to maintain your extended track while crabbing and easy to maintain your centerline when flaring if you roll into the wind and maintain heading with the rudder.
Used to have lots of problems until I realized I wasn't holding down the wing into the wind through the flare and roll-out.
For me, that was the key.

[Shunter]

Learning at Leeds/Bradford xwinds were something I had to learn early on. After they closed 09/27 which was almost always aligned with the wind, 14/32 was almost always a xwind landing.

I usually crab it in flapless @ 70kt, then keep a touch of power on over the threshold, boot it straight with rudder just before the flare which usually means very little aileron required as it doesn't have time to wander too far off centre before it goes down.

Put it down quite hard in xwind once after my dual QXC, and when I said "oops, sorry about the rough landing", the instructor replied "That wasn't rough, that was assertive". Been doing the same ever since with no problems.

[Lucy Lastic]

Lucy,

I don't think Mike was suggesting that you land side ways. Either method, wing down or crab if done correctly will result in you landing on the windward wheel first with cross controls.



In my view (and I may be wrong), crabbing and kicking off drift leaves you more vulnerable to landing with a sideways component and in certain types (like Jodels) the u/c is just not strong enough to handle even small sideways loads.

Crabbing and kicking off drift calls for a fair amount of judgment. If you flare too early the crosswind will start moving you across the runway, and if too late you will be moving the other way.

Get wing down right and you can control much better.

[JetMouse]

Some great responses here looks like I’m not the only one learning...

Whats hit home here most is the post about speed. I think absolutely if you nail the speed then life is so much easier (and of course it's having the confidence to go around when your not quite happy rather than put it down regardless)...

Now this crabbing business can we clarify this - crabbing to me is using the rudder to point the nose towards the xwind?

My instructor(s) are not fond of this method (if indeed crabbing is what i believe it is)...personally (i fly a PA-28) i think in this situation i would fly wing down tracking the centreline then once over the threshold start with the rudder to align the nose with the centreline (whilst maintaining wing down) and hold this till landing (which will inevitable be the wing down wheel first)...does this sound about right?

I also know practice will make perfect but it's reassuring to hear that even some of the instructors don't get it right all the time and you can always keep learning!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Jetmouse:

Crabbing is what one does when flying cross country to correct for wind drift...in otherwords crabbing is flying wings level and in balanced flight...the airplane appears to be flying sideways in relation to the path over the ground.

Slipping is lowering a wing and using opposite rudder to keep the airplane flying in a straight line over the ground.

Flying a long final and slipping can be compared to using a slip to correct for drift on a x/country......

This really is basic and should be well understood before you even solo...

...but there sure is nothing wrong with asking questions when you are not exactly sure...:ok:

Chuck E.

[BeechNut]

I fly an aerobatic Beech C23 (Sundowner 180) It has one interesting characteristic: it loves a stabilized approach with speed nailed right on book values. Not +/-5 knots, but right on the numbers.

As a result I don't like slipping down final. On top of that there's a 30 second slip restriction in the POH to avoid unporting the fuel tanks. With a strong wind, that's just about a 1-2 mile final at normal approach speeds I also get erroneous airspeed readings in the slip due to the masking effect of the fuselage on the airflow over the pitot. Who needs erroneous airspeeds when low and slow?

I therefore prefer to crab (that is, fly wings level but the nose cocked into the wind to stay on the extended runway centerline). When I come over the fence, in one smooth motion I start to convert the crab into the wing-low + opposite rudder (slip) method as I commence the flare. It's nice and elegant. No fighting the aircraft down final through the gusts, just trim to maintain speed, throttle for sink rate heading for centerline, then over the fence start to sort it out. Slips create a lot of drag and varying the slip a lot in gusty conditions can give you some nasty surprises in the form of high sink rates in a low-energy situation.

I get fairly consistent results. Where I normally fly from, there's a built-in crosswind from the right and sure enough my right tire always wears out faster than the left one.

The bottom line is that there are many "correct" methods out there. You need to know your abilities, the limits of your aircraft, and figure out what works best for your particular aircraft. A a "correct" method in a Cessna may be just as "correct" in a Beech and vice versa (that is: safe), but may not give you as pleasant results and may increase your workload.

Beech

[BroomstickPilot]

Jetmouse,

One thing I notice about a lot of the posts that have preceded my own is that they frequently do not mention whether the technique described is for high wing, low wing, tricycles only, taildraggers only, or both and the exact method of touchdown is often not described.

I learned to fly forty years ago at a time when we were all tail dragger pilots. So what I want to say now is related purely to the taildragger. (You had to be posh to fly a tricycle in those days). My instructor was a man who had flown heavy, multi-engined taildraggers during WW2, so I tend to regard him as a considerable expert on the taildragger and still regard what he taught as best practice.

He taught me to do both methods of approach, the crabbing approach and the wing down method. He said that I should be able to do both and be ready to use either method, according to the characteristics of the aeroplane and the conditions prevailing.

One thing, however, never varied. He taught me to do roller (a.k.a. wheeler) landings whenever doing a cross wind landing. This is where you allow the main wheels to touch the runway when you still have flying speed and without stalling the aeroplane. You then move the control column forward to remove any positive angle of attack and cause the aeroplane to roll along the runway on her main wheels and with her tail up.

You allow the speed to fall off while holding the tail up and the aeroplane as close as possible to the centre line of the runway. As the speed fell off, you would find yourself moving the control column further and further forward to keep the tail up, while applying more and more into wind aileron and more and more away from wind rudder to keep staight. Eventually, you would be unable to hold the tail up any longer and it would sink onto the runway and the aeroplane would roll to a halt with the flying controls crossed, aileron into wind and rudder away from wind.

Recently, when I made a return to flying (after a break of forty years!) after getting my PPL back I decided to get my taildragger skills back also. Obviously, I now had to re-learn cross wind landings, I was taught the method of stalling the aeroplane putting down the into wind main wheel and the tail wheel, (which incidentally I had never seen before). I asked if I could relearn my accustomed roller landing, and received no clear reply. So I did as I was told and used the method I had now been taught. A short time later, I had my very first ever groundloop!

I am not saying the groundloop was actually caused by 'two pointing' the aeroplane, as other factors were at work on that occasion also, not least of which being a gust of wind funnelled between nearby hangars and that I had been flying only tricycles since my return to flying, but I certainly believe the two point landing method contributed to the development of the groundloop.

I believe that if that gust had caught me during a roller landing, while my nose was still level and my wing close to a positive angle of attack it would have been that much quicker, after getting full power back on, to accelerate to flying speed, and do a go around.

I have the impression that modern instructors, (both ex military and civil trained) have lost the ability to teach the roller landing, perhaps being afraid to teach people to push the stick forward during a ground roll for fear of grounding the prop.

I should be interested to hear other people's views on what I have written here.

Broomstick.

[djpil]

I find that most people learning tail-wheel have problems acquiring the essential new habits so I generally don't confuse them with wheelers until they're more experienced. i.e. first priority is to get the 3 point attitude and stick back firmly embedded - they easily slide into bad habits. (That's in an 8KCAB.) So, cross-winds are done per Monocock's method.
As for a Pitts, a reasonable cross-wind just makes life easier and not worth mentioning in the brief. For a strong cross-wind, same as above.
For a Tiger, I personally wheel it on in a cross-wind.

[MVE]

The wheeler landing is normally used to land on concrete/tarmac where you have a long runway to land on and a smooth firm runway and as described above can help on the crosswind landing.

As to the technique for the crosswind landing, I find the crab method rather amature as we try to teach new students to get the correct picture for the approach and then tell them to point the nose into the wind with a crosswind! Nonsense! Start them on the wing down technique nice and early and the forward picture remains largely the same and the touchdown with the into wind wheel a non event with practise. I know there are many ways to skin a cat but with the crab technique you ask them to make a major change to the picture for the approach and then a major change to the attitude on the landing just before you flare so it's no wonder so many junior and senior! pilots cock it up! As to the stall speed going up? by how much? and with the flaps down what is the gap between the approach speed and the stall speed and with a small amount of extra power there is almost no change to the performance.

I suspect the reason for the instructor recommending you don't use the wing down technique is he/she can't fly it and was never taught to fly it properly........all the best.........

[FullyFlapped]

DB6 :

I find the best method is a crabbed approach until the last 50-200' or so (depending on aircraft type/speed) then smoothly squeeze in rudder and opposite aileron to align the aircraft with the centreline, wing down, then hold those inputs all the way THROUGH touchdown and roll-out, increasing aileron deflection as you slow down and they become less effective.
If you try this in a strong cross-wind in anything with a nosewheel, you'll find yourself shooting straight off the side of the runway! :ugh:

Quite right about the aileron, but you need to get the rudder centralised before you lower the nosewheel ...

Learnt this lesson the hard (embarrassing) way ! :O

FF :ok:

[DB6]

Depends on the aircraft, FF. On most nosewheel aircraft the nosewheel aligns with the airflow when it is not loaded and remains so on touchdown, so you can maintain the rudder input - in fact if you don't then the aircraft will weathercock and you will depart the runway. All the aircraft I fly at the moment have either a separate steering system or a spring connection between the rudder pedals and nosewheel. Which one did that to you?

[Monocock]

Broomstick.

You asked for comments on your post. Technically I totally agree with you that the wheeler is a more robust method when landing with a crosswind. However, I don't like it as a method as I feel the landing run lengt is in the lap of the Gods and I hate sitting there waiting for the speed to bleed with my tail up high wondering how much runway I might end up using.

Going in and out of strips between 350 and 600 metres (that have a crosswind more often than big tarmac fields with multi-runways) means this method is not an option.

I must try one soon as I haven't done one since my tailwheel conversion. All I seem to recall was the end of the runway looming, not being allowed to touch the brakes and praying for the tail to stall!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Brooomstick:

That was one of the best posts on landing tail wheel airplanes I have ever read here on Pprune.

Next time I'm in England I would be pleased to buy you lunch and shake your hand.

The lack of understanding about how to properly fly tail wheel airplanes in todays instructor pool is stunning.

Properly executed a wheel landing will produce a shorter landing as you can dump the lift and load the tires for agressive braking.....being careful not to be too agressive of course.

As to hitting the prop, look at the airplane from the side if in doubt and determine if you really have to worry about landing in the level attitude...if it looks like it might be an issue get someone to lift the tail and put the prop vertical and see just how high the tail needs to go to touch the prop on the ground.

Anyhow great post and don't let the tail wheel skills challenged gang influence you as you are spot on and your old instructor taught you correctly.

Especially with regard to x/wind landings.......:ok:

Chuck E.

[7gcbc]

hmm, last post disappeared into the ether ?

Broomstick,

great post, >> maybe I should read and understand it before commenting << normal xwind non wheeler landings are upwind main down ,then tailwheel, and then downwind main.

The original method (you mention) of wheeling it on is what I use and have been taught , its actually easier to put the upwind main down first , keep the tail up and let the downwind main come down of its own accord, in a short strip ease off the in -to wind stick and downwind main will come down quicker, you can then balance fwd stick with firm (but not too firm) braking. A little trickle of power just before touchdown helps with control and the prop gives a reasonable ridigity. (widens my window for picking the touchdown is all it does) and gives me the option to go around.

You can get shorter landing rolls using the wheeler and also see where you are going - avoiding that suspenseful "quiet time" of no fwd vision and peripheral practice , altough it does depend on which type you are flying, not all tailwheels are created equal.

have a look at the onesixright promo video of the dc3 doing a wheeler, its very clear what he does on touchdown. it's on onesixright_dot_com and called "aerials" i think under the video section.

Those last vent/gust between the hangars/trees/shading has caught me out also and its' the inconsistant nature of a x/wind that is more of a problem, than a consistant one.

edit for correction

[djpil]

... and as djpil mentions (or I think he implies) , its actually easier to put the upwind main down first , keep the tail up .....
Not what I meant - one main and the tail down together - the other main follows later.

[7gcbc]

Not what I meant - one main and the tail down together - the other main follows later.

My mistake, meant wheelers only. I have edited and corrected my original post

[BroomstickPilot]

Thanks, Guys, one and all for your comments on my post.

Thank you, Chuck, for your kind remarks: if you do come over some time do let me know; perhaps we shall indeed get to meet.

When I have more time, I'm going to read carefully through all this material and see what I can learn from it.

Incidentally, when I was taught roller landings it was on the short (grass) runway at Barton Aerodrome, where the LDA is 396m. The aircraft was an Auster Autocrat J1, which cruised at 80 mph and admittedly would have landed at about 45 mph. We did, however, use a lot of that runway.

Rollers were taught specifically for crosswind landings, irrespective of surface type. At various times during my course I did also land into wind on metalled runways and was allowed to use the ordinary three pointer method.

I think the instructor does deserve to have his name mentioned. It was Taffy Davies, a name that I'm sure will still provoke vivid memories among the old members at Lancashire Aero Club.

There was one other circumstance where Taffy would have taught us to use the roller landing if the occasion had arisen. One day while I was there, a DH Dragon Rapide landed and 'rollered' past. I happened to be standing next to Taffy, who leaned over to me, pointed to the Rapide and said in his inimitable Welsh way. "See that? High aspect ratio wings! Only old pilots can three-point those: you and I should stick to wheeler landings when landing one of those".

He didn't explain, it was just a passing comment, but I assume he meant that high aspect ratio wings might not stall simultaneously, perhaps leading to a ground loop. So the safest thing was to put the aeroplane down without stalling it. I never got to fly anything with a high aspect ratio wing, (other than gliders) so I never did get to learn how true this statement was.

Broomstick.