Flying in Nevada

[speedbird676]

I did my FAA Private license in Pennsylvania last year and asides for a brief trip back there in December I've not flown since. I'd like to go to the USA some time before the end of the year to do a few hours.

I've had a think about it and decided that I'd like to fly across Nevada so I can see the Grand Canyon. BA fly to Phoenix so I was wondering about the possibility of going there, hiring a single engine aircraft (I have experience with PA28 and C152) and flying to Vegas, staying for a few days and then flying back.

Anyone got any advice for me on this? It sounds simple enough, are there any complications that I may not have thought of?

[172driver]

I take it from your post that you're a low/no hour PPL. So far, so good, we all were at some stage. BUT: be aware that Nevada can be, shall we say, challenging. Depending on time of year, you'll have to contend with hot/high situations, lots of empty desert devoid of landmarks and loads of mil areas. Winds out there can be fiendish. Also check the Grand Canyon airspace/ NOTAMs, there are some severe restrictions in place. Don't want to put you off, just be aware of what lies in store. Have a great flight, wherever you go.

[Cusco]

I have flown across Nevada to 'see the Grand Canyon' twice in the last two years.
I am not short of hours (500+) and flew with another PPL of greater experience and hours.
It is not a trip for the faint hearted: after mid morning it can be as turbulent as hell and to fly over the Grand Canyon (see my picture on BRLs photo thread on here) you have to reach altitudes of 10-11,000ft.
Our Ageing Arrow just made it in 2004 , hanging on the prop with the oil temp nudging red and our (much newer but less powerful) Archer this year also struggled.
Don't get me wrong: its a wonderful experience, but do it with another pilot in the RHS.
With your hours, which as others have intimated sound a bit low, you may well not be able to rent an a/c for self hire.
Why not, this time, to experience the trip in safety, hire an a/c with an instructor: you'll need a biggish engine and a C152 certainly won't be up to the job.
Try a search of North Las Vegas airport for FBOs (Westair Aviation springs to mind).
Don't bother with McCarran this time.
And while you're there drop into Death Valley (Furnace Creek) for a new experience in heat.
Others with greater experience than mine will also no doubt add their two penneth.
Good Luck
Cusco;)

[Paris Dakar]

speedbird676,

Many US aircraft renters will require you to take 'hull' insurance which can cost around $300 depending on the type of aircraft. Instead of paying that money to an insurance company why not use it to take an instructor with you. This will give you the chance to gain some great experience, build on your own flying skills, and above all, allows you the chance to look out of the window to marvel at the scenery below.

Be sure to take your camera(s), plenty of batteries and films/cards - you won't be disappointed.

Have a great time :)

[david viewing]

I can't really agree with what's being said here.

I started flying out of VGT (North Las Vegas) with very limited experience more than 20 years ago and have been back there every year since. To address the specific points:

Aircraft performance: The answer to this is go solo. Even a 152 will go to the Canyon 1 up and cross the VFR routes. A 172 2 up and little baggage will do the same.

Bumps, hot n high, etc: Fly early. A great benefit is to stay close to UK time. Take off at 6am and be done by 11. Also good for avoiding summer thunderstorms. Most places open by 6am and you can get the keys if you want to go earlier.

Desert terrain etc: Yes it's challenging if you have to walk out. But in most other respects it's a far easier environment than UK. Stay away from the lee side of the mountains on windy days and that's about it. (Less wind in the morning). Don't go exploring canyons etc or deviating far from planned routes. Use flight following - a LARS that works - and you've got a guardian angel. Use height - 5000' agl - enroute.

Airspace: a pussycat compared with UK. Clearly defined consistent airspace with vast areas of uncontrolled in between. No problem with joining class D and only simple proceedures for 'B'. If you want to fly into 'B' at Vegas it's probably best to check out there first. But compared with Cardiff/Bristol/ London megaport it's a doddle.

Checkout (re above): Check rides are a gift in the American system. Some places have minimum experience requirements but many don't. A typical checkout is the same as a BFR, 1Hr gnd and 1Hr flight. But if they want you to have 5Hr, do it. Make sure they cover enroute proceedures, flight plans and radio. Most US instructors have no idea how rudimentary things are here and that many of our PPL's are unsure of the radio. Buy the little book 'VFR radio proceedures in the USA'. They don't appreciate we don't even have flight following or even a VFR flight plan system that works.

Briefing: The 1-800-wx-brief system is another gift. Be sure to use it wisely. Call the night before to discuss your plan. They are reluctant nowadays to give out stuff like car rental reservation numbers but in most other respects the new privatised FSS agents are the same people as before and just as helpful. Call again before departure to discuss current weather and TFR's. Stick to the route that you give them.

GPS: If you can, rent a plane with a panel mount GPS and learn how to do 'goto'. Failing that, take a simple hand GPS with Americas data like the Garmin 92. Navigate off the excellent sectional chart (you arethere to see the landscape!) but verify your navigation with the GPS so you never have any 'uncertain of position' nonsense. Sectionals are cheap, convenient (fold up easily) and can be supplimented by WAC charts for longer trips.

Weather: If your'e not sure, don't fly. It's a big country and you can get into big trouble. Having said that, it's far easier than UK with its micro weather and c**p forecasts. Just wait until tomorrow. They can see the weather coming days in advance.

Where: VGT Westair as has been said or Northaire at Prescott, only an hour from the Canyon and no airspace other than 'D'.


Sorry to write at such length.

Good luck - you'll never regret it.

[speedbird676]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Lots to think about, think I'll get in contact with a few clubs first and find out what their requirements are for hire.

I'm also gonna speak to a mate in Mexico who has CPL and 500+hours to see if he'd like to fly up and join me. Probably a good idea (and hopefully he'll share the fuel costs!)

[CherokeeDriver]

You can rent at Anglo American in San Diego (handy for your mexican friend) and Henderson Executive is about 3 hours away over Death Valley etc. Refuel and use Henderson as your "base" - be careful lots of restrictions around the area because of McCarren and Helicoptor routes to the Canyon.

The advice about taking an instructor is sound - you'd do well to consider it. Cross Winds at Henderson Executive were 22-25kts when I was there - well outside of my (and the airplanes) performance window. Got a real lesson in x-wind landings that day......

Jeppesen do a terminal area map for the Vegas area - you'll find it very useful for flight planning.

[On the Spot]

You can also rent from Angel Air in Phoenix. They are quite relaxed about UK pilots - they have to be as they train the BA pilots in US flying before they let them loose in the 172's and 182's (hee hee !). Freinds have rented from a location in Scottsdale too but I don't recall the name.

The check out at Angel Air includes a high altitude/temperature element though not a full mountain course.

The trip to the Canyon in great and best done earlier rather than later in the day when the turbulence can increase. There is a specific chart for the canyon and shows the VFR routes for the main sights. Best tackled with a GPS.

I can also recommend the staff at Las Vegas north who could not be more helpful and even rustled up a car when all other attempts had failed and so made it possible for us to stay another day.

On that trip we went up to Monterey (jazz festival in September is good) and then came back down the coast - Big Bear in California is spectacular as is Catalina Island off LA before heading back to Phoenix.

[Cusco]

I can't agree with David Viewing's recommendation that Speedbird flies a 152/172 solo across some of the most challenging terrain in the USA from either Phoenix or North LV to Grand Canyon with so few hours experience, even if he could find an FBO daft enough to rent him an aeroplane.
I can just imagine the NTSB report....................
Cusco

[FairAir]

Hi Speedbird. :ok: Just to finish these exchanges, I agree with almost all the comments here. I have been flying the west coast for about ten years. Personally I prefer to fly out of an airport in the LA basin and have liked doing day or two day trips into the desert or Vegas. There is more to see near the coast than in the desert, although more traffic too. Despite this the flying is easy, with flight following and friendly radar. (!!!) Winds can be tricky, so early morning and late evening are best, hence my preference for day trips and lounging by the pool or in Vegas Hotels during the day for me. Grand Canyon is a must, but prepare well and take the most powerful plane you can. I flew a Seneca there once and was going full power to idle and still roughing the levels! Suggest you take a safety pilot for that trip; they are cheap and can show you more than just flying - some irports are so big it is easy to get lost even with a map, and it saves bothering the tower for help. Let us know how it goes.

[knobbygb]

Don't want to get into a debate about wether it's a good/bad/foolish idea to do this with xxx hours as there's no right answer - in the end it's down to each pilots own personal confidence. If you feel 100% happy then do it, if not... (if in doubt, there's no doubt etc.)

Having said that, I do agree with David. I did a very similar trip a couple of years ago when I had about 70 hours (just 25 post PPL). Rented from the Phoenix area, up to Vegas, out over Utah then south over the canyon and back to Phoenix in 4 days. Properly trained (i.e. a proper mountain checkout) and LOTS of time reading charts etc. (and asking on prune of course!) and there's no reason why you'd be more likely to come to any harm than flying anywhere else.

Airsapce - very simple compared to UK. Read the charts, follow the procedures. Navigation is a doddle as there are so few features to confuse - plan a route that follows the highways which will also make things easier if you do have problems. Plenty of VOR's to cross-check your position regularly - useful to have something to do as flying over the great-american-bugger-all can get boring after the first few hours. Yes, the airspace over Nevada is a patchwork of restricted and controlled airspace but remember 95% of your time on this trip will be in Arizona where it's much simpler and your much nearer to civilisation.

Don't take any risks with mountains and wind etc. - actually get an instructor to show you what the downdrafts on the lee-side of mountains feel like and you WON'T go there again. As far as weather and wind - go in winter. It'll still be a pleasant 70 degrees in the Phoenix area and colder everywhere further noth - i.e. no real perfomance issues from the afternoon heat and also less blustery winds. At that time of the year you're likely to see the canyon area coated in snow which is even more beautiful than usual.

Most important is file a flight plan for any 'remote' trips and stick to it. That way, as long as you can do a forced landing in 200 miles of open desert you'll be fine. (OK I know - I'm being a bit simplistic, but you really won't be spending that much time over massive, inhospitable mountain ranges).

I could happily go on about this all night. If you want me to, PM me and I'll answer any specific questions you have. I have photos of my trip here (http://knobby.chickenjuice.org/adv_chandler.htm) and I know David has a good website too (which was of great help planning my trip) but I cannot remember the URL.

Really sb676, I'd go for it if I were you - this kind of thing is why you got your license in the first place, and the best way to become a better pilot is to stretch yourself, but obviously only within your own comfort factor. Hey, if you get to Phoenix, set out and don't feel comfortable with the weather - just visit Vegas, and some of the less remote local fields and you'll still have the flying trip of a lifetime :ok:

Don't worry about renting low hours - I'll PM you details of what I rented if you like (plus a few quirks about the place). But if you contact them and ask sensible questions like you already are here, they'll have confidence that you're being mature and cautious about the whole thing and are therefore a better pilot than the 10,000 hours know-it-all skygods that are unfortunately quite common over there.

I've flown over the grand canyon at 11000ft and over downtown Los Angeles at 2500 in smog with traffic all around. Wanna guess where I felt safer?

PS - Furnace Creek is a must.
PPS - and the PHX VFR transition
- and the Vegas transition
- and... get the point? :cool:

[speedbird676]

Thanks for all the help folk, definitely got a lot to think about while I plan the trip. Thinking of maybe putting it off for a few months until the weather is cooler and I can take my friend along for the ride. Definitely looking forward to it!