PVR - Flying Pay Cut - unjust?

[Baque Flip]

With the transition earlier this year onto the JPA system, has anyone picked up the fact that when you PVR, regardless of your rate of Flying Pay, it is now HALVED!!

Has anyone tried to legally contest this? Or the drop in Flying Pay on the OLD system? As far as I am aware, under current European Employment Law, it is illegal to penalise an employee in this way.

[SpotterFC]

With the transition earlier this year onto the JPA system, has anyone picked up the fact that when you PVR, regardless of your rate of Flying Pay, it is now HALVED!!
Has anyone tried to legally contest this? Or the drop in Flying Pay on the OLD system? As far as I am aware, under current European Employment Law, it is illegal to penalise an employee in this way.

Never having been in receipt of it I may be missing the point (and am wearing flameproof underpants) but I thought flying pay was partially a retention incentive - offsetting the higher pay available outside. If you don't want to be retained, why should the MoD keep trying?

[wg13_dummy]

Never having been in receipt of it I may be missing the point (and am wearing flameproof underpants) but I thought flying pay was partially a retention incentive - offsetting the higher pay available outside. If you don't want to be retained, why should the MoD keep trying?

Correct, spotter.

Its retention pay. No need to retain if its shown one is jumping ship. ;)

[Confucius]

Unfortunately I think flying pay is still classed as a taxable allowance, so its loss is not regarded as a pay cut per se.

[JessTheDog]

How about a pay cut for T Bliar, who announced he won't be standing next time around...and why doesn't someone reduce his notice to 1 month while they're at it!

[FFP]

Spotters right. It's sold as a retention payment. Ergo . . . .

[Charlie Luncher]

I had the same problem when I NGR'd, only the fact that I read the AP beforehand I knew they were in the wrong due to my terms of service, worth a look if it still exists that is.:cool:
Funny that the first action of the scribblys was screw the nut just that little bit tighter.:mad:
Charlie sends

[Runaway Gun]

Well you are taking the Scribbly's personal cut of the funds.... so it would seem.

[Baque Flip]

I had the same problem when I NGR'd, only the fact that I read the AP beforehand I knew they were in the wrong due to my terms of service, worth a look if it still exists that is.:cool:
Funny that the first action of the scribblys was screw the nut just that little bit tighter.:mad:
Charlie sends

I looked into the NGR but couldn't find out any info. Not sure if it has died with the advent of JPA. What were the benifits anyway? I can't believe that you would accept a drop in FP for the prescribed 18 month period...if so, who would take this option?

[OverTq]

I think you're lucky it's only halved!

[LFFC]

Look on the bright side. If PMA are so keen to retain over 50 year olds that their flying pay is now halved if they plan to leave a couple of years early, perhaps it means they will be offered this new FRI too! :=

[South Bound]

I agree with OverTq - so many threads on here have explained ad naseum that flying pay is about retention. If you decide not to stay I think you are lucky to keep any of it.

[Charlie Luncher]

Baque's
The NGR suited me due to the exit date being decided by me not PMA, and it did come round awful quick, but I did go to the USA for my resettlement training. My flying pay was not dropped after Mr Scribbly and I had a reading lesson:ugh: .
I do remember when I first looked at aircrew pay levels it was called flying risk pay, then it was changed to give aircrew a pay increase over the blunties, god bless 'em:D .
Charlie sends

[Kengineer-130]

South Bound
"I agree with OverTq - so many threads on here have explained ad naseum that flying pay is about retention. If you decide not to stay I think you are lucky to keep any of it. "

what utter bullsh*t :rolleyes: if you hand your notice in in a civvie job, do you expect your wages to be cut just because you fancy a change/new job/move up in the world?? :mad: Time to stop getting F**ked over, if you earn the money you should be paid it until the day you leave, simple. :ugh:

[The Gorilla]

A lot of you appear to be missing something important here and you seem to want to blame JPA. If it is true that flying is being halved and I don't know that it is since I have no access to JPA, then this is most significant. Exit levels are high whilst recrutment levels are getting ever lower. Sooner or later there will be a manpower crisis to the point where the nations very security is threatened. At least that is the excuse they will use! The next step will be to remove entirely flying pay when you PVR as a manning tool and I have no doubt that eventually the PVR option will also become unavailable.

A thought for those of you still dithering on any decision to leave, if manpower levels fall sufficiently there are standing powers for the Defence Council to prevent you from leaving and even extending your normal exit points for a couple of years!
:ooh:

[South Bound]

KE130

yep, you are right, but he isn't in civvie street he is in the RAF and he gets given some extra money in his pay packet to encourage him to stay in. Having decided to leave, why should the taxpayer still pay him money to stay in? You tell me. Exactly the same as FRIs - you leave early, you pay some back.

I suppose that is the beauty of the current system. I have always advocated all aircrew having their own payscales with flying pay built in, and not an allowance. But if they did that, they would not be able to cut flying pay on PVR!

[BEagle]

If Flying Pay is to be cut following PVR application, it is only right that PVR exit time should also be cut.

Another reason I pulled the B&Y back in 2003 - I saw all this coming!

[nimblast]

Question,
if you have served for more than 9 yrs, QR's state that you have a right to give 18months notice or PVR. By exercising your right how can you then be penalised by a pay cut??

[South Bound]

Fully aware that I am going to be stoned by everyone on here, but what is so difficult about this? It is retention pay, this has been argued ad nauseum on other threads and is the reason aircrew get flying pay, to keep them in the Service. If one chooses to leave why should they get paid retention pay? Perhaps they should continue to pay FRIs with no payback of service as well.... I can see that it looks unjust, but it is common sense.

As I said before, it would be better if aircrew were just paid at a different rate.

[Twopack]

...they are - on the Professional Aviator Spine.

No flying pay, therefore no pay cut on PVR. :)

Try the ''Flying pay is retention pay'' argument on that. Are you saying they don't need to retain PA?? :confused:

[South Bound]

It doesn't mention PAS above, only flying pay. I have no knowledge of the terms and conditions that those on the PAS agree to.

[Baque Flip]

The gorilla,

If you can get access to JSP 754, you will find out that under JPA, the amount of flying pay is now halved upon PVR. Previously, you dropped down a level. For me, i am on the enhanced rate, so the drop is quite considerable!

Charlie,

I can't find any info on NGR terms - if they still exist and the terms are as you remember, then this might be a good option - I am in no rush to leave, and having a defined exit date would be very useful. Thanks for the info.

My reasons for leaving are personal, and i would appreciate not getting told how lucky I am to be getting any FP at all. I seem to be spending well over half my time living/ flying around a certain sandy sh1thole, and if i am 'still' required to fly in/out of some of the most dangerous airports in the world - receiving half FP is unacceptable.

Having trawled through the JSP, it just seems convenient that they have been re-written to suit the mil. Funny that.

[RayDarr]

While I feel very sorry for all you poor folks that are loosing allowances because you have decided to leave the services before your normal option, surely when you joined you understood that the purpose of an armed force is to fight wars. Therefore you must have expected to spend long periods living away from home in assorted sandy s**t holes around the globe. Or did you rearly believe the recruiters when they told you that it would be pimms on the lawn and young Debutants fighting to rip their nickers off for you when you flashed your flying brevet at them.
Perhaps you thought that the government of this fair land actually cares about you. Time to grow up children.
Rules of life are:
1. who the f**k are you and who gives a s**t anyway?
2. There are plenty more young kids where you came from all believing the above.
3. The civil servants will ALWAYS change the rules to rip you off.

There is no point griping about it, just get on with it.

[South Bound]

BF

we all have our reasons for staying/going. Personally my terms of service mean that I have to leave at one of 2 optional exit points. If I want to leave at any other time, I have to PVR and then my pension is reduced as a punishment/penalty/whatever. This is different to other people who can just leave with required notice any time after their 22 yr point. That seems unjust to some people, but it is my terms of service, hey ho that's the way it goes.

[BEagle]

What utter twaddle, RayDarr. You must be one very blinkered individual if you cannot realise that people are not just automatons - their interests and ambitions my well change over the course of their years. Hence they may decide that the service life is no longer for them - and desire to move on.

Nothing wrong with that.

And it's the 'overall package' - the '$hit bucket' is far bigger than the 'fun bucket' these days and frankly it amazes me that any military pilot is retained as far the the ORD or whatever it's called these days. Unless they're a prolific brat-breeder taking advantage of boarding school allowances, of course.

Back seaters and the pie-eating team in the back of things like Nimrods have far fewer career options, so hardly suprising that retention is less successful for the 2WMR than for the 'and his crew' types.

[RayDarr]

Most people joining the forces do so from school or Uni. They don't think about terms of service. The country however has had a long time to work out a very one way contract which you are then bound into. You should read the small print. (All you guys who did work hard at school should have had the wit to know that)
Now instead of living in your hotel, you live in crap accommodation, get shot at and have to mix with blunties (The indignity of it). Therefore you want out so you can earn mega bucks with Civ Air. However, when you find that Aunty Betty's government have crafty ways of dragging back their dosh (mine too as a tax payer) you cry the house down. Hard luck people!! If you HAD worked hard at school you would have joined Civ Air in the first place, and saved everyone a lot of trouble.
Life's a bitch, then you loose your flying pay. Get on with it and stop bleating.

[Lara crofts pants]

Most people joining the forces do so from school or Uni. They don't think about terms of service. The country however has had a long time to work out a very one way contract which you are then bound into. You should read the small print. (All you guys who did work hard at school should have had the wit to know that)
Now instead of living in your hotel, you live in crap accommodation, get shot at and have to mix with blunties (The indignity of it).

Not living in hotels....I found it quite easy to put up with that - no problem.
Getting shot at on a regular basis......part of the job - just get on with it.
Mixing with blunties....yup, that really was the last straw - see ya

[Baque Flip]

Most people joining the forces do so from school or Uni. They don't think about terms of service. The country however has had a long time to work out a very one way contract which you are then bound into. You should read the small print. (All you guys who did work hard at school should have had the wit to know that)
Now instead of living in your hotel, you live in crap accommodation, get shot at and have to mix with blunties (The indignity of it). Therefore you want out so you can earn mega bucks with Civ Air. However, when you find that Aunty Betty's government have crafty ways of dragging back their dosh (mine too as a tax payer) you cry the house down. Hard luck people!! If you HAD worked hard at school you would have joined Civ Air in the first place, and saved everyone a lot of trouble.
Life's a bitch, then you loose your flying pay. Get on with it and stop bleating.

RayDarr
You have no idea!
If you haven't got anything useful to say, please keep it to yourself.

p.s. remove that 'chip' while you are at it!

[Lara crofts pants]

Actually I think RayDarr is very well balanced. He has hang ups about educated people and pilots. Hey presto, a chip on each shoulder!

[Vifferpilot]

Have any PA pilots PVR'd yet? If so, what happened to their salary?

RD is fishing methinks :=

[RayDarr]

I have nothing against pilots, I just wouldn't let my daughter marry one.
In fact I have nothing against people who wish to PVR but if you break your contract with the RAF, then you loose your flying pay. That's the deal so stop bleating about it. You could of course always stay in. Your choice.
I am also in favour of education, (even for women) but sometimes, the comments I have read from supposedly "educated" people on these pages leave me cold.
Pilots , no problem with them, known some good ones, and some bad, just like the rest of the livestock inhabiting the RAF. I am sure those Fighter Controller friends of mine will confirm that Pilots are in fact a manual guidance for long range weapon systems. Now IF they had brains, they would be safe on the ground at the radar CRC passing commands to the fools in the aircraft.
And by the way Baque Flip, I do know what I am talking about, and I will be as rude as I like to people like you.

[The Gorilla]

Baque Flip

Thanks for that, I guess the next amendment then will be to remove FP entirely from anyone who wishes to PVR. Now that would make people stop and think!

[ANAPROP]

Didn't I read somewhere that if you PVR whilst on the PA spine you revert back to the normal career spine? Or maybe that was just if medically down graded and/or just the first 5 years?

Trying to find the document...

[exvicar]

RayDarr, would you rather your daughter married someone as bitter & twisted as you? I am now in Civ Air as you call it. Suprisingly, after working hard at school, I decided to join the RAF and:

1. Enjoyed a variety of flying that I would never have had if I'd gone straight to an airline.

2. Met with a few t***ers but mostly met an amazing bunch of people who are true friends & I will keep in contact with for years to come.

3. Spent plenty of time in a tent but also in some rather nice hotels with (2) doing (1).

4. Had a great social life and probably met your daughter somewhere. Think she'll marry who she likes, better get used to it.

[Radar Muppet]

exvicar

Do you think you met his daughter or met his daughter?

Aye

[truckiebloke]

If gaydarrs' daughter has got a loud mouth like her fathers, then i think it is a very good job none of us marry her.

[serf]

hey baque,

sounds like you should have stayed in the Army!

[exvicar]

Think I may have met his daughter but they all look the same with ballgowns over their ears! That said she did harp on about being a tax payer......Like father like daughter. Seem to remember she got her moneys worth, reckon RayDarr owes me.

[Vifferpilot]

Have any PA pilots PVR'd yet? If so, what happened to their salary?


JSP754 Tri-Service Regulations for Pay & Charges:

Premature Voluntary Retirement

05.0621. The pay of PAS personnel will not reduce on approval of an application for premature voluntary retirement (PVR). :E

[The Gorilla]

I am going to run a sweepstake on how long it's going to be before 05.0621 is amended!!
:E

[navibrator]

Hey - if you want to go early - then do so. But if you do, don't bitch you suddenly lose flying pay. That's all part of the deal. This really is a thread that shouldn't exist. The rules are there - manage with them. And just in case you argue the rules have changed, that's the empoyer's choice. If you do not like it - go. Until we get a union - of course.

[navibrator]

Look on the bright side. If PMA are so keen to retain over 50 year olds that their flying pay is now halved if they plan to leave a couple of years early, perhaps it means they will be offered this new FRI too! :=

Age isn't the issue. It doesn't matter how old you are when you decide to go, the fact is the retention issue has failed. Much better to keep the FP for those wishing to stay; it could be argued it isn't high enough!

[LFFC]

nav

Sounds like you're arguing against a new FRI but advocating a big raise in flying pay.

That could be a great idea as it would certainly be less divisive, but it may also be very expensive! Unless they introduce a new top band. I still can't see it happening though.

[vecvechookattack]

Until we get a union - of course or you could use the Armed Forces Federation.... CAFFUK....they may help

[Unmissable]

RayDarr

I defend your right to be as rude as you want whilst hiding behind an anonymous forum. But please answer the question: WHY do you feel the need to be rude and obnoxious?

[Mad_Mark]

I think the big problem here, that many outsiders/non-aircrew don't seem to appreciate, is that this is not so much about the reduction in flying pay when you PVR (this has always happened as long as I can remember) but that the way the size of the cut was changed on the Q-T at the same time that JPA was introduced. I have always known that if I PVR'd then I would drop one band in FP, however the cut is now to half of your current rate. Since most FP pay does not double when you go up a band then the cut is more severe than in the past.

Several ill-informed posters have commented that we have signed up to a contract, should accept it and just get on with it. Well maybe if the so called contract that I signed up, to all those years ago, was anything like the cr@p terms that are impossed on me now then I would accept it. Hardly any of the terms of service in place when I signed on the line still exist, most having been changed for the worse, with those of us that are affected having no say (or ability to have any say) whatsoever. Imagine how Civ-air would take that? "Your terms of employment have been changed, your pay has been effected - just get on with it" - response: "Who is our local union rep - all out brothers!"

MadMark!!! :mad:

[LFFC]

You wouldn't have suffered a cut to flying pay in the past if you had PVRed at over the age of 38. so the real pain from this move will be shouldered by older CS officers - is it any wonder that they are therefore leaving in droves at their IRDs?

[SubdiFuge]

I plan to challenge the 50% cut when I submit my PVR in the New Year. It certainly wasn't a condition when I joined and was not briefed as a change being implemented under JPA by those teams that did the rounds. I will redress - what have I got to lose if I'm going anyway!

SDF

[LFFC]

It was brought in by the pay review, not by JPA. Although they may have saved a small amount by doing so, the strong push factor it has introduced at IRD has persuaded many to leave at that point who otherwise may have stayed for a few years longer. That drives the IPS up, the cost of which far outweighs the savings!

Another well thought through measure!