Pilot magazine and the OAT chap

[airpilot]

A couple of days ago I was reading an article in a pilot magazine which is following an oxford student through his ATPL exams. Just reading down the page and came across the quote which read something like" first time passes are needed as it could mean the difference between a right hand seat on a 737 or a job behind a shop counter" What a thing to say. I never passed my exams first time and I dont work behind a shop counter. I hope he does not think that someone working in a shop is lower than him. Typical 19year old. Just remember peeps how fortunate we are . I maybe completely wrong but it did annoy me.

[no sponsor]

Yes, I think first-time passes would elevate you to the position of re-stocking the shelves, or perhaps sweeping the aisles, even third assistant to the duty manager!!

There hasn't been one application form I've filled in that has asked me my ATPL results. In fact, even my first time IR and CPL passes don't get a look-in anywhere either.

At OATS they might mean the difference between your name going forward to BA or not, but I thought the requirement was just an average of 85%.

For the rest of us, first time passes are good only for you: they give you confidence, boost your morale and generally indicate you are headed in the right direction. They also save considerable anguish and further expense.

[Diamond 'katana' geezer]

It is because he has been sold the Oxford lie, and seemingly swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

I feel sorry for the little blighter.

Geez:cool:


P.S. The Oxford lie comes in many forms and can be found in many flying schools up and down the country. A way to identify the Oxford lie is to go to a school that doesn't need to put 'adverts' in pilot magazine and compare them to said school.

But who cares about experiencing real life, when you can be a FO in a jet in 12 months!

Chances are he'll get a job before he even finishes school. I really hope he does.

[Dozza2k]

Oxford lie became a truth for me i'm afraid. Sure, his comment was a bit off but he's only just started the course. He'll wise up.

[Callsign Kilo]

I'm sure his comment was made with the slightest hint of sarcasm! He is in a fortunate position to be at OAT and is obviously willing to pay the £60,000 to £70,000 to be there! If he does well, then yes, he will probably have an interview with BA in 15 months - I wish I could say that!

[Blinkz]

I'm at OAT and I can tell you right now that everyone here does not buy into the 'oxford lie' as you all so nicely put it :rolleyes: . We're here because its a good school with great instructors. Good results are NEVER a bad thing and you should aim to do as well as you can. That goes for anything in life, not just flying!!

[Airist]

Isn't the real point here, and the one Airpilot was originally making, that this wee tyke sees his future as being either in the RHS of some posh jet, or a fate worse than death, "behind a counter"? He will probably score 100% in everything (it isn't that hard) .. But he should still be forcefully ejected into the Real World for a statutory period of at least three years, or until puberty, before being allowed anywhere near anyone's RHS. Then he might realise how insulting (to those of us who are, or ever have been, "behind counters"), unrealistic and ungrateful his attitude is.
Oh, and I take it regional turboprops are just flying counters...?

[window-seat]

Ahh, Bless him, he probably wanted to be a Pop Singer until 6 months ago, but never passed the 'X factor' auditions!!:p

Loads of people I know had the odd re-take to do, having missed a pass by a couple of percent on a bad day, and it has Never come back to bite them in the backside!! - Oh and they never ended up behind a counter either:eek: !!

Having worked in a Pub once (behind a Bar :oh: ), and held down a decent office job )behind a Desk:{ ), I eventually went on to Instruct and then to fly a regional Turbo Prop until fairly recently!! Gosh, how did I manage???:hmm:

Well I rekon that the TP flying was about the most fun I will ever have in an aeroplane, lots of hand flying, visual approaches, weather avoidance, 2 take off and landings per day, 5 days per week!!:ok: So the jets bring more money, and a bit more variety, but alot of the 'fun' factor is gone! It's great to climb the ladder, but even nicer if you can stop on the way up to take in the view!:D

[Kengineer-130]

To be honest, I read the article and I personally thought the way he was speaking was demeaning and had a lot of arrogence in it. To be fair, good luck to the kid, it takes lots of work and dedication anywhere you decide to train, but I feel a more "real world" series would be better, ie following a self improver through a course, as the OAT seems to be insert arrogant 19yr old and 70k one end,and in just over a year extract an even more arrogant "anyone whodidn't train at OAT is crap" 20 yr old with minimun time and limited "real world" experience.

just my 2 pennys worth, waiting for the flames now :}

[High Wing Drifter]

As the old saying goes:

At 100hrs you think you know everything. At 500hrs you know you know everything. At 10,000hrs you know you'll never know it all.

Equally an allegory for the arogance of youth and the wisdom of age. Cut the lad some slack!

[Jepp]

The whole article just made me cringe, and cringe even more the bit about ending up in a supermarket...........AARRRGGGHHHH

[Airist]

I tend to agree re the "real world' alternative, Kengineer. I would have been interested to read a first-hand tale of someone struggling to get through by fair means or foul, while funding the rest of life, a partner and spawn. (More so than yet another flight test on some obscure aircraft I wouldn't recognise if I fell over it, and will certainly never lay hands on) But what light , on ANY aspect, can an unself-funded 19-year-old shed anyway?
That isn't a rhetorical question. In all honesty, I knew the article would irritate me beyond belief, so I've only skim-read it. Please, someone do correct me if I've missed the point.
As a recovering journalist, I would love to know the editorial thinking behind this one.

[Charlie Zulu]

Airist,

I am not sure if "Pilot Pete's" story was ever published within Pilot, but if you'd like to read a story like you describe then "Pilot Pete" posted his story to PPRUNE as a "taster" for the article he was going to send to Pilot.

A very worthwhile read.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6911

I have also read the article by the 19-year old. I nearly gave up after nearly throwing up whilst reading the first few paragraphs in regards to looking at one's self in the mirror, talk about vane!

I do hope he wrote the article with his tongue firmly in cheek. He was right though when he wrote about feedback and pre-exam week! Plenty of coffee, etc etc... Oh dear I've got that coming up this coming week. Oh well. :D

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Jepp]

Okay Okay

Perhaps we are all being a little harsh on this young lad ?

I know his article made me cringe as I said before, but come on, how many of you wish that you were on his shoes when you were 19 Eh ?

What we see here is the person that many a 30 odd year fATPLer is in competition with..........like it or not.

His chances of landing a RHS position in the proverbial ' shiny jet ' in the not too far distant future are way and above that of a majority of others. but, hey, thats life !

J

[mad_jock]

No it ain't Jepp

He has as much chance as the other 1000 low houred CPL's out there after OAT have lost interest in him.

He is young and all the rest which will work in his......

I actually think poor **** to be honest. Every man and his dog will think the pish that has been written is him......

I hope he got a huge bung for the article

MJ

[moo]

I feel I must come to the defence of Will, I'm at OAT and know him quite well. He's a great guy, popular with his class and very switched on. He's just about to do his IR and in fact is about to go to BA for selection and interview so I think despite his youth and limited industry experience, is qualified enough to write an article only designed to give people a bit of an insight into training - yes it maybe just at OAT on an integrated course, but nonetheless...

I agree his comments along the shop counter lines are misinformed, everybody is allowed a failure at something, christ, you wouldn't be human if you hadn't and how would you ever learn anything - I think what he may have been trying to say is what the airlines don't want to see is a number of failures, I know someone who failed 4 subjects and re-sat two of them twice! That wouldn't go too much in your favour, but failing one by a few percent isn't ever going to dash your chances. If anything, it gives you material for the "give us a time when you failed something" questions at interview.

I agree with lots of Will's statements and not with some others. No one is going to agree with everything, not even if it had been written by a 35 year old with years of life experience. I don't think it was written as a definitive guide to ATPL training, just a light-hearted account of his experiences.
after all.........do you believe everything you read?!

[High Wing Drifter]

Thanks moo,

The first rational post in this thread.

[no sponsor]

As someone who got first time passes in every flying test I've done, it is so immensely frustrating to read that someone who has yet to do their IR has an interview already lined up with BA. Unfortunately I was a modular student...who sat the same exams and tests as this chap, was examined to the same level, etc, etc.

If I ever needed reminding that this is an unfair world...

[scroggs]

Don't be too hard on the lad; he is to a large extent regurgitating what he's been told and can't leaven that with his own experience. It's just a shame that Oxford (or at least one or some of its staff) feel the need to try and convince their students that this kind of crap is true.

It may well be that in OAT's own culture, and in any agreement made with the airlines it deals with, failures at ground exams are not tolerated. Of course, you would expect in that case that anyone who fails an exam is not allowed to continue to waste their money on the flying phases of the course. Perhaps someone from Oxford would care to comment on that...? However, in the wider field of real-world employment, it is accepted that people fail exams and retake them. It would be a very hard-nosed employer indeed who took a dim view of this.

Take the article with a pinch of salt. Those of you not OAT trained who have been successfully employed may like to write to the magazine concerned and set the record straight?

Scroggs

[Airist]

... No-one's been having a personal go at the lad. At least, I don't think so.
But he seems to forget that he is very privileged to be where he is. There are a lot of people out there who haven't had his luck and are indeed working behind counters, or wherever. Moo, if you know him, perhaps you could have a tactful word in his ear about that. And maybe having a little humility in the face of his absolute inexperience, of aviation AND The Real World. You could call it "CRM"...

[PILOTOWL]

Twit-Twoo !!

I've been reading this thread and also the mentioned article.

It's a shame that OAT/Pilot magazine have exploited the young chap.
This article should be taken as what it is....
A marketing exercise.

They (OAT) are now competing against Universities in selling a career/course. There's now no free Uni and so if you have to pay why not just go and do the ATPL straight away. Rather than like the past, Uni and then ATPL. OAT are fully aware of this.
So are now lowering the demography ie. 18-20 year olds. Look at their adverts, all fresh faced and under 22!

Pilot magazine is just an extention of the OAT marketing department. Every other month there's some article about OAT. Pilot magazine has lots of OAT adverts (inc CSE) so are probably their largest income. Trust me -count the adverts !!

They've tried to balance this (May or June) issue with other schools/flying abroad etc.. I think each school got a paragraph!
OAT on the other hand - get a full page spread and a journalist saying that if you want to do it the best way - go to OAT.

If I was a FTO, I'd pull the adverts in Pilot. Why subsidise OAT marketing department? Haven't seen Jerez for a while ??

I work in the industry as such and come across these so called OAT graduates. I would like to point out these basic facts:

1 You are at OAT NOT Oxford University. You only need 5 GCSE's not 6 A* a- levels.
2 You are not a graduate! It takes at least 3/4 years to get a BA/Bsc/LLB etc.
3 Degrees aren't multiple choice and there's no question bank with tutors gentally pointing you in the right direction for the thickies.
4 I was brought upto respect other peoples ways of achieving their goals - there is never EVER just one way to do things.
5 Don't believe a word of anything from people selling anything inc flight training!
6 Why do OAT students always say OAT have the best FI's ? Have you been any where else to compare this? They have the experience I here you say.. The experience has long gone.

Finally, I hope the young chap does achieve his goal and so does everybody else (whatever the path).
I will not be buying Pilot magazine again and neither should you until the editorial gets less bias.

An independent Twit-Twoo (not from OAT)!!!;) ;)

Sorry it was a rant. The article got me in a flap - pun intended!!

[Kengineer-130]

Sorry it was a rant. The article got me in a flap - pun intended!!

Was that a plain or fowler flap?? :}

[G-DANM]

They (OAT) are now competing against Universities in selling a career/course. There's now no free Uni and so if you have to pay why not just go and do the ATPL straight away

As someone who started university this year before top-up fee's were introduced. Am I missing something or could I have sworn that university has never been free? If it actually was supposed to be free then I'm being ripped off by thousands of pounds!!! lol

[Frank Furillo]

I am aware of inflation, but when I wnet to uni it did not cost in excess of £70K, as some Intergrated Schools Charge!!!!!!!!!!:confused:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The article pissed me off - it's misleading for people looking to enter flying training and is horribly pro Oxford, in particular the bit in the first article where the author seemed to suggest that the ONLY way to survive the ATPLs is to do a full time residential course! How many people starting out will have been taken in by that piece of mis-information?

I don't blame the chap who wrote it, as has been mentioned he's in-experienced and has just repeated what he was told by the Oxford marketing machine in relation to groundschool. He's obviously doing well with his course and no one should begrudge him a shot at BA selection - good luck to him.

The real issue is with Pilot mag. The idea behind the articles is surely to provide a generic insight into commercial training and what it is like actually going through it. Being a GA publication I don't know how much commercial training/flying experience the editorial team have, but the only group who are really benefitting from the series of articles - up to this point anyway - are Oxford themselves.

[What's a Girdler]

Oxford's course is good for one thing, and that is getting into BA, they pay 10% more than other airlines, as quoted by a senior first officer friend of mine, fine if you want to pay through the nose for a course. However why all the ambition to go to an airline where time to command is going to be 17 years for even the airbus fleet when they extend retirement age. If you ask me, go for one of the holiday charter firms where time to command is significantly less, how many airlines even look or even ask for ATPL results, I can think of one.....BA!

Says it all well done Oxford!!

[scroggs]

....getting into BA, they pay 10% more than other airlines, as quoted by a senior first officer friend of mine...

That is no longer true, especially when related pro rata with flying hours. Nor is their pension better than anyone else's - in fact, it is far worse than some. BA is now a middling employer, not the bar-setter it used to be. And you do not have to go to OAT to get in.

Scroggs

[PILOTOWL]

TWIT_TWOO!!

Kenginer - Fowler Flap!!

[PILOTOWL]

TWIT-TWOO!!

Uni was more or less free ie. No Uni fees and a subsistance grant!
I graduated from a Oxbridge Uni and my total debt was 1500 quid after 3 years. So yes, Uni WAS free!!
My point was that OAT realise this and are targeting the younger folk ( hence the age of the chap inthe article) . Average debt from Uni is now estimated to be 25,000 quid So if you go to OAT :
Uni degree 25,000 + 65,000 OAT + 20,000 TR = 110,000 !!!!
My numbers are 10, 17 , 23, 34, 42 and 44 .
Why does 44 always come up ?

So folks Uni is not free neither is a career in aviation.
OAT good for BA ? That's at the moment and all because of the ex- OAT "graduate" in charge of recruitment. When the baby boomers keel over (next year) that may change when more flights are being cancelled due to lack of aircrew (FD + CC).
I do wish they get rid of him he's so OAT it's embarrasing for the rest of us. He's not even a "real" graduate but prances about like a double first from Oxon!!

TWIT-TWOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.s See my new thread " Don't buy Pilot/ OAT advertisement pamphlet"

[High Wing Drifter]

I graduated from a Oxbridge Uni and my total debt was 1500 quid after 3 years. So yes, Uni WAS free!!
Would that be X University or Univerisity of X :E

[tarbaby]

BA paying more than other airlines? A good bit of misinformation that one! Schools with a BA contract will be be making a loss. BA use their size (large fish in small pond) and national flag carrier as bait for the schools.

"You want our contract? We will pay this amount." The school will bleed with every BA student. But they all want to be able to say, "We train BA students." If you are not a BA student you are paying a higher price. Schools have to make up their losses somehow.

I have a dream that one day all the schools will get together and work out a price for BA that is just. A dream I know, the schools will say yes and then do a private deal.

[ATP_Al]

I wouldn't blame the man himself but there are some rather unfortunate comments in both articles so far. Given the cost of his course, getting paid to write about it is a very enterprising thing to do!

What is more worrying is the spread of this elitist "only a big BA jet will do" attitude. Many of us will have failed something and now feel that it made us a better pilot, not a worse one. And in such a diverse industry with so many companies doing different things, why is everyone obsessed with getting into one company??

[littco]

I have been looking around for a flight training school for some time now, have visited most of them and one thing seems to be common through out all the schools that offer the intergrated course.. It's like being in a cult!!

Now I know everyone can make up there own mind, and there are plenty of success stories from these schools but being sold a dream in the way that they do, is to me quite worrying! I appreciate many people have £80k+ and are able to afford these courses, but to have to borrow £50k from a bank to pay for the training, that doesn't even cover the full cost of the training is way beyond belief! I understand it's going to be used for your future and it's an investment, but I worries me that someone aged 19/20 is allowed to borrow that kind of money, with out the real realisation of what happens it all goes wrong expalined to them! It's just all too easy.

I have read the article, and reading through it think that this guy has just been brain washed and nothing else in the real world actually matters.. Its the schools way, and that's all that matters.. Why should he worry about what he's writting?! What he's been taught is the only way it should be done.. According to the school....this is what he believes so why should he doubt it!


At the end of the day, we can all make our own decisions about life. What and who we want to believe but personally I would never go to one of these schools even if they could guarentee a job at the end.. Which they can't...

If you want to know I wouldn't .. It's very simple.. zero-fatpl will cost you if you go modular Min £38k .... the same at an intergrated school will cost you £65K+... Anyone that wants to charge you £28k extra for the same course DOES NOT HAVE YOUR INTERESTS as a priority.. How can they! But you have a choice, you make it and you stick by it.. Same as anything in life..


I have no doubt that one day I will be working with someone that has been to one of these schools, and I will have utter respect for them regardless.. I am at the end of the day not in a postion to critise others for the choices they make....I just hope they know what they are doing and are not being blinkered by all the hype and marketing that is offered to them for the extra £28k they pay!

[lookoutbelow]

Have to agree with Bitmorerightrudder on this one. Learning to fly either as a hobby or as a career as we all know is hugely expensive and something you would hope is looked into by everyone that embarks on it in great depth. In my case I spent many years reading Pilot, Flyer and Flight International etc on a weekly/monthly basis as I am sure most of us did. Therefore, this article will be being read by 10's if not 100's of inexperienced guys and girls that are wanting to embark on pilot training and it is painting a distorted picture in my view. It is a huge decission to make and these people need the best, most balanced and appropriate advice.....

The article in my view is hugely biased towards OAT and intergrated course providers for that matter and is being written by an author who, no disrespect to him at all, has no experience in the industry, specifically flight crew training or recruitment.

How many editions is this series to run for? Would Pilot have not been better featuring for example an intergrated OAT/Cabair/FTE student in month 1, a modular student (perhaps a guy or girl making a career change later in life for example, with family, mortgage considerations etc) with say Stapleford/Bristol Flying School/Aero's on week 2, a fATPL holder job hunting in week 3 (Advise on CV Writting, SIM Assessments, Interviews etc) and a newly qualified FO in week 4 (What the job is actually like!!). Not only a far less biased series , but far more imformative getting several different views and from people at various stages in the process?

Only my opinion for what it is worth.....

[PILOTOWL]

High wing drifter,

The Big Uni of X !!;) :E :ok:

[boogie-nicey]

JUst caught a quick glimpse of this month's Pilot magazine with another article in it of some chap who was either heading towards or just completed training at OAT. Like I said it was brief glance as I was pushed for time but I note from the last paragraph that he claimed to have spent "100k" and declared it as an investment.

Investments are not impune from some forward planning and this kind of figure is very high especially for someone of such a young age (something unethical about that... not sure). Anyway the fATPL is the investment not the price tag, because in gaining the fATPL he could have done so for half of that price quite easily. Clearly if it's not on the syllabus then these young guys have no idea about it. This clearly demonstrates their lack of general knowledge and awareness of anything outside of aviation or should I say anything not OAT approved (whatever that means).

Doesn't make me feel too well....:yuk:

[asuweb]

Let's not get onto the Modular versus Integrated debate again.

To my knowledge, he has finished, and has a job with an airline.

[boogie-nicey]

I understand I didn't want an Int. Vs Mod. debate neither just thought I'd mention it because I only caught a quick glance at the article.

But hey well done to him ..... looks like a goofey though :)

[microfilter]

RIGHT!! NOw listen- the problem with integrated is.....

ah, I'm only kiddin you guys......

:ok:

[asuweb]

I should add though, I agree with you in that £100k does seem excessive. I know the figure quoted included all expenditure, including IR re-test (partial pass). Perhaps he had a lavish lifestyle. I'm certainly not expecting to spend quite that much.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

I've also been looking briefly at his progress during the odd lunch at Gatwick and I also thought that spending 100k was a bit silly. I think he feels satisfied with his "investment", because he trained with OAT and he stands a good chance of getting a job as a pilot - EVEN MORE SO after being seen for many months in the Pilot mag! (good on him!!!!)

Even if I had the cash, I would be really iffy about spending that amount on training, especially when training can't guarantee a job, but by spending that amount of cash and training with OAT as integrated improves his chances massively (my opinion anyway) - while at the same time it shows that he's willing to live his life in difficulty if that job doesn't come about (which I doubt).

This person is prepared to take risks in a careless way.

Personally, I think I will stay in my paid job in management and start training for my ATPL (Cabair Uni course possibly), trying to "avoid" the problems of debt as much as I can, while being "sensible" about the whole thing. If I don't get a job as a pilot at the end, well hey, hopefully I will still have my management job as a backup.

[TruTh747]

JUst caught a quick glimpse of this month's Pilot magazine with another article in it of some chap who was either heading towards or just completed training at OAT. Like I said it was brief glance as I was pushed for time but I note from the last paragraph that he claimed to have spent "100k" and declared it as an investment.

A couple of guys on another thread have said that it took them 85k to finish!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=233563

Wow! thats lot of money!

+Truth747 :ouch:

[benhurr]

Well the articles on Will's progress have been in Pilot for the last 3/4 months. An integrated course lasts a touch longer so I am guessing that the outcome of the "investment" was known from Issue 1. (wont know for sure until the next issue)

Did OAT pay PILOT for the advertisement feature? Or are PILOT going to run a series on modular training when Will has got his jet job?

Maybe PILOT could do a BLOG of a flying instructor next and we could all sit waiting to find out if a student has managed to do a solo trip...

Cynical? Me?

[captwannabe]

asuweb: To my knowledge, he has finished, and has a job with an airline

It's not really surprising that he has got an airline job soon after training. Fair play to him for writing his piece, and advertising himself in the process.


benhurr,

I too wonder if OAT had to pay for this publicity, and will the magazine feature a similar series of articles about another student/FTO??? Anyone got answers?

:confused:

[Deano777]

He was always going to land an airline job, there was never any doubt about that, think about it, a story about a young lad & his flying training career with OAT in a glossy monthly magazine, but then !!!BAAM!!!!, it all goes tits up and he ends up with nothing at the end of it, hardly likely to happen is it, I'm not saying for one minute that he only landing the job because of this but it had to help surely, but fair play and all the best to the lad :)

[raviolis]

He was always going to land an airline job, there was never any doubt about that, think about it, a story about a young lad & his flying training career with OAT in a glossy monthly magazine, but then !!!BAAM!!!!, it all goes tits up and he ends up with nothing at the end of it, hardly likely to happen is it, I'm not saying for one minute that he only landing the job because of this but it had to help surely, but fair play and all the best to the lad :)

all the best to the lad for sure, he surely did well for himself. 100 grand is 100 grand tho. I thought it was an advert pushed by OAT, but reading that sort of prices isn't a great advert is it ?
Most people, even professionals with a good wage, need a mortgage for that, so this lucky chap has either a rich family to support him, or he's the only 19 year old without permanent job in the country who's been granted a 100 k loan from a bank.
There's nothing wrong with having a rich family, good on them and well done to them. Nothing wrong with wanting the best for your kids.

The good news is that on the same magazine you can see you can get the same sort of package from Riverside at 19 k, or if you got PPL and hours, only 11 k, which is in a way reassuring...

all the best

[George Foreman]

Yep, thanks to emigrating (again) 6 months ago I haven't seen the article, but I suspect the outcome was a foregone conclusion and it is hardly surprising....Flyer has carried a lot of less-than-subliminal Oxford-centric editorial content from for some time. In the Sunday supplements they would call it an "advertisement feature". This sounds like a shameless OAT publicity stunt; there simply had to be a happpy ending !

Actually it is this sort of thing, as opposed to the concept of the course itself, that put me off Oxford and their APP course when they launched it. It is simply not to everyone's taste.

George.

[bazilbutler]

Hello all.
My search had threadbare results, so can anyone point me in the right direction for threads on accommodation options at OAT during the groundschool phase? Thanks in advance.

[asuweb]

The OAT website and forum (www.oxfordaviation.net (http://www.oxfordaviation.net)) are going to reveal more answers than here.

Basically, you can stay in Langford Halls (on site) or find yourself alternate accomodation.

[speedrestriction]

At the end of the day I don't think it really isn't worth getting one's knickers in a twist over. :uhoh:

I know that were I to write articles about flight training, the one I would have written at the start of training would be very different from the one I would write now (I am currently job-seeking). Maybe the same applies to the author of the articles, I don't know.

I realise that at the start of training I held many misconceptions and fostered many inept opinions. The same undoubtedly applies now to my conceptions and opinions regarding flying for an airline. For me so far, aviation has been nothing if not a learning experience. Hopefully wannabes looking at the article will at least get a "feel" for training through the integrated route to a JAA license.

More importantly, is there really anyone out there who would solely base their decision to spend £50K-£100K on a series of articles of a 19 year old? I think it should fall under the category of light and (mostly) harmless reading.

sr

[raviolis]

TWIT-TWOO!!

Uni was more or less free ie. No Uni fees and a subsistance grant!
I graduated from a Oxbridge Uni and my total debt was 1500 quid after 3 years. So yes, Uni WAS free!!
My point was that OAT realise this and are targeting the younger folk ( hence the age of the chap inthe article) . Average debt from Uni is now estimated to be 25,000 quid So if you go to OAT :
Uni degree 25,000 + 65,000 OAT + 20,000 TR = 110,000 !!!!
My numbers are 10, 17 , 23, 34, 42 and 44 .
Why does 44 always come up ?

So folks Uni is not free neither is a career in aviation.
"

hmmm.. NATS recruit people under 30 with no requirement of Uni degree. No selection fees. Free training and also a salary (small but still a salary) during your training.
I know they don't get you to you don't fly planes, but it's a well respectable career in aviation.

Where's the catch ? you have to be good to pass the selections. Not just prove them that you can (or have a family that can) commit to a 70k debt !

[Lucifer]

Except that student loans are on a fantastic rate, and you don't have to worry about them as the taxman collects them directly, so you can't spend it.

More effective to analyse it by lowering your salary!

[RoyHudd]

But I did pass through there some years back, and got precisely nowhere as a result of my OAT training. 2 years of unemployment followed.

No first-time passes for me though, and a bit on the senior side, over 40 when I started the Upgrade Course. Made it, left the Groundschool due to low teaching standards, and finished ATPL Nav's myself.

OK now, though, mainly due to own efforts. And some good luck on the way. OAT is just another flight training establishment, no quirkier than others, bit arrogant, and rather costly. Forget its reputation, means little or nothing in the real world.

And good luck to all aspiring professionals. Sincerely. RH

[boogie-nicey]

Hey Royhudd, can I take it that you are now employed as a result of your own efforts? If so well done and by the way were you one of the younger/mature candidates :)

[pez1206]

I know the guy in question (friend of a friend) and after saying that, hes been offered an easy jet contract....All very well (not quite BA but meh) however hes been told he must pay for his type rating at around 20k..... make of that what you please but maybe he shouldnt have been quite so liberal with his words. But well done to him anyway.

[boogie-nicey]

Demonstrates that once you're out of the school doors the industry treats you just the same way regardless of your OAT background :}

Reality always has the last laugh and at £100K already spent his decision isn't looking expensive but more and more stupid by the day. Indeed he wanted to be a pilot like the rest of us but he'll come across someone in the corridors and offices of EasyJet to find they got their fATPL at a fraction!

[Deano777]

Reality always has the last laugh and at £100K already spent his decision isn't looking expensive but more and more stupid by the day. Indeed he wanted to be a pilot like the rest of us but he'll come across someone in the corridors and offices of EasyJet to find they got their fATPL at a fraction!

er, what does that prove? the said character that he "may" bump into may have indeed spent a fraction, but he will most likely be the modular guy who has spent about £40k, has had to spend eons building hrs instructing, crop spraying (unlikely), parachute dropping, had someone in the know who could have maybe recommended him for interview, spent 2 years post fATPL looking for a job, emailed off 800 CVs in a 12 month etc etc, whereas the young lad we are discussing here probably had an interview because he spent £100k going through OAT, see the difference now? your point holds no water

D.

[boogie-nicey]

Well why not do the training for fATPL.... start off with a PPL to get the feel for it from a nice respectable 'middle of the road' FTO like Wycombe Air Centre. Go onto to do the groundschool at Bristol/Cabair/BCFT/AFT, etc (all very respectable) then a nice bit of CPL & IR at Aeros or Bristol Flight Centre. That seems like good quality training to me and for a fraction of the cost. Also allows you to work full time and minimises the loan amount you need to take out too (thus at the end the true cost will be even less). Now with your relatively 'lighter' loan burden and a full time job still bringing in the money you can use some of the money saved to get a type rating and if you really want go buy some line training.

It obviously depends on individual circumstances but in the end there's more than one way to skin a cat (not that I like that kind of thing mind :) ). Each time something gets mentioned relating to OAT there seems to be an undercurrent of blind faith simply because of the brand name. Flying is never conducted on such aspirations but with thoughtful, factual planning.

His peers may not have been so lucky but you can bet that they did pay a fortune for their training. The difference they may not have a job at present or even anytime soon. We all see adverts of how someone made a fortune of share dealing but that doesn't necessarily mean it applies to all or even the majority.

[umbongo]

Actually Deano, for that kind of money the point does hold water, that said i wish the guy well and think he's found a novel way of reaching his goal, which i admire. I'm sure lots of the snide comments here are born of jealousy.

Would i want to be £100K (£120K after a type rating?) in debt at the age of 19. No chance, no matter how big the carrot being dangled. But thats just my 2 cents...

[haughtney1]

Look...

This argument has been done to death. Ive read the article, and to be honest other than the fact that its quite well written, there is nothing else of substance included other than being a good advertisement for OAT. This guy is living proof that you can sell anything to anyone..given the right circumstances and the right marketing:ok:
I did my ATPL's a few years back on a distance learning course from OAT, and got a job off my own back (and hard-work..networking and all that) 3 months later.
The place is what you make of it..those that spend their £££'s have a choice, and thats the way it is.
As for how employers view OAT graduates....thats simple, they are cheap..ready packaged, and a known quantity, all this is from the years OAT have spent building and developing relationships with airline customers, and listening to what they want. Its a simple rule of business...find out what the market wants, and provide it at a competitive price (competitve/cheap/cost effective/cost neutral because OAT students pay through the nose)
Its all about the bottom line:ok:

[boogie-nicey]

Let's not overlook the huge cost of training it seems we have been immersed in flight training so long that these prices seem normal. In fact I'd say we're somewhat immune to their shocking presence. If I were to tell members of the public about training for their dream job and then say it'd be a minimum of lets say £50k their eyes would no doubt open wide.

There are programmes on TV that report on the sad consequences of bad debt and the ruinous effect it has on personal and family life, in some cases suicide and or serious mental issues. Most of those reports are for people with a fairly good income and are still struggling, how can such a huge debt be taken on lightly? OAT claim their courses cost £XXX's which is on high end of the scale to start with then they end up paying even more towrads the end after the student has passed the point of no return. Of course OAT claims that they have safeguards in place protecting student expenditure if they seem weak or 'behind the curve' during the earlier stages of training. However what about those students that will utlimately pass but only after numerous attempts and racking up even more debt when they're not working anyway?

I am NOT trying to put OAT down, I am merely highlighting the frightening relationship between training, cost and consequently personal debt. It's not a game and like many who take out loans or other forms of borrowing the glossy adverts of a happy smiling couple holding a cheque for thier new car, sofa, kitchen, holiday disguises the more than equal dismay as every month the money gets deducted (effectively cutting your salary) reverting people to think that was X years ago and still the repayments..... hmmm ..... was that really worth it? Could it have been done in another way....? Aviation training is indeed a syllabus but it needs to go hand-in-hand with common sense.

[captwannabe]

boogie-nicey,

You have very valid points. If a modular student and an integrated student are hired straight after their training, the modular student will be in a much better position financially. Even if the modular student has to do some GA flying to get an airline gig, at least he/she would be paid to fly, and would probably have made some good contacts along the way.

It would be great if an airline set up a "sponsored/mentored" cadet scheme via a well-structured modular route. Ah well, one can dream...

[Callsign Kilo]

His article in this month's 'Pilot' does confirm he is now employed by the airline with the orange fin!

He also comments on how he was forced to turn down the 2nd Stage of selection for Thomsonfly due to their recruitment process 'being a bit slower than where he ended up!' All this despite the airline being willing to pay for half his rating if he were to be successful. However as the process didn't fit with the 5 month period where he had to start paying back the bank the 100K he invested in OAT, he took up the Easy/GECAT offer, borrowing another 20K for the Airbus TR!

All in all an enlightening (and interesting) insight to the integrated world, a world where extremely deep pockets are a pre-requisite! However his dream has now been realized, despite being placed knee deep in debt for the indefinite future! His parting words as the article ends read as follows...'as an afterthought, what do I think of integrated training? I paid for a product, and they delivered. They delivered the interview in only 2 months. I can't complain.'

Someday I think you just might mate!

[captwannabe]

With the publicity he gave OAT, he was guaranteed to get recommendations from them, and he also got a lot of self-publicity from the articles. I wonder if someone were to go down a well-structured modular route writing a similar series of articles, would they have any problem getting interviews/jobs?

[sicky]

Seems like he had what the airlines are looking for though, in abundance. Some of us aren't so lucky, and although i believe in myself, i know i'll have to convince selection boards a lot more than people who come across as he seems to, from what i've read in this thread.

[markflyer6580]

If like me his loan from hsbc can be paid over 11 years,lose the £25k his dad lent him then he still has £100k to pay the bank...
At the profesional study loan rates thats knocking on the door of £1300-£1400 a month repayments for 11 years!:eek:

Im glad I'm taking the modular route:ok:

Not wanting to get in to the SSTR argument again,but since he paid for his type rating he(and everybody else) may as well go modular at £35-40k and buy a type(booooo!) ending up with £60k to pay back (thats less than the basic APP course),if you are daft enough to pay for a TR,then they don't care which training route you took.

[SinBin]

I wish they'd come and talk to someone like me who has really had to work their butt off! I kept down a full time, high pressure job, and did my training in my spare time with first time passes throughout (1.5 years start to finish). I put my job, house, and marriage on the line for all this and I've still got them all + and here's where it gets interesting, I have no debts!! I am not the brightest of individuals which proves anyone can really do this (only just finished)! If I now need to buy a type, I can:yuk: , and I even have some now left over for a yacht too!! (Sailing's much more fun!:} )

[New FO]

Sinbin, I'm not so sure this is the industry for you. 1.5 years? From what I have heard 1.5 years is just about enough to get from 0 time to full ATPL if you work absolutely solidly. High pressure job capable of funding training, a house, your wife and a spare bit of pocket cash for rich boy toys? Does the high pressure job involve...robbing banks?

If not what you have achieved is little short of a miracle and perhaps you should aim elswhere than flying. Perhaps run a jumbo on the weekends as a hobby. Concentrate your immense efforts on a skill that can improve the world we live in. It must be within your grasp?

What's my point here? If what you're saying isn't subject to the odd enhancement here or there you really should write a book and sell it. A lot of people would be interested and full time integrated schools would buy your silence as you'd be capable of single handidly bankrupting them all!

Tell us more...

[Tuned In]

New FO

Where did you find that timescale? It is certainly possible to do the lot in a year working solidly. I was kind of relaxed about it because of the state of recruitment at the time and it took 15 months, despite 5 weeks off ill and a month working in the middle. I could have shortened various phases and I hit a bad patch of weather during my CPL.

I know others that completed in around a year on modular courses, if they were lucky with the weather.

[New FO]

Then I'm confuzed. Surely if this was the case, the integrated courses which take up the best part of a year and a half...could be shortened? Given that those guys not only need less hours to achieve the CPL but also work continually focussing purely on flying.

[Muddy Boots]

I do think humility is the watch word here. With a little more life experience the lad might realise that there are a lot of good people doing necessary jobs which he feels would be a life worse than death. I know of a lot of pilots who have had to do all sorts of things to make ends meet from washing planes and sleeping on mattresses on hanger floors to build hours and follow their ambitions.

This lad is undoubtly lucky and has supportive parents for him to be there at 19 years old. Too bad they didn't make him do a typical gap year activity between school and the next phase of his life like work in a pub and then go traveling with a backpack on. Maybe that would have given him some grounding first, so to speak.

Muddy Boots

[New FO]

Let's not turn this into the modular/integrated argument! Both training methods are obviously very valid. However, is it really possible to get through the modular route, along side paying as you go, in such a short time? If so, whoever knows how to do this...please share the info!:ugh:

[captwannabe]

I've just read the August article.

"...they help you land a job. In essence, that's what you pay for. To go through a process that puts you in a position in which you can land a job on a big shiny airliner."

Paying £80k for training and £20k for a TR is just not worth it. He said he spent £100k in total which is approx. €150k. I know a few people who spent €55k on training and €30k on a TR (usually for FR) which amounts to €85k. They are working for an airline for around the basic course price of OAT. Are they in the same position as the OAT chap? No, they are better off.

Congrats to him on landing his first job, because that's a difficult task no matter where/how you train.

[captwannabe]

I forgot to add that some people will get the wrong idea from reading these articles, and will think that going to OAT and spending £100k is the only way to go about pilot training, and because he got his first job in a "big shiny airliner" will expect the same.

[mcgoo]

Let's not turn this into the modular/integrated argument! Both training methods are obviously very valid. However, is it really possible to get through the modular route, along side paying as you go, in such a short time? If so, whoever knows how to do this...please share the info!:ugh:

its perfectly possible, i got my ppl last november, will finish atpl groundschool in september, am doing hour building and multi and cpl in november and then ir and mcc early next year, and i have been working full time all along so far, so if all goes to plan i will have my frozen atpl after about 14 months while working full time

[Pilotdom]

I think one thing that is in the favour people who do modular courses is that alot of people these days have one day off a week. Sure there are still alot of 5 days a week office jobs etc but alot of people have days off during the week. I am lucky I have a job as an engineer in the printing industry. I work a continental shift pattern which means I only work 12 a month. The money I earn is good. This allows me to devote at least 10 days a month to ATPL study and my dream job. I think the OAT chap is lucky to have parents to lend him £25k and I would s**t myself if I had a £100k debt to pay to a bank. I do know that Integrated is better for some people so what I would say is that if you want to get a FATPL i think a good idea would be to get a job on shift work and pay for at least some of the training that way, Even fork lift drivers where I work who do the same shift pattern take home £1600 a month,just think that could go towards training and keep you out of as much debt!

[Tuned In]

New FO

I can see your points of confusion - you are assuming all modular students do something other than the course at the same time, and also have the wrong timescale for the integrated course. Apart from a break waiting for a place on the next module I did my course full-time, as did many others I know, some of them timed things better with course dates and weather, were not ill and were working hard to get on the job market quickly. Then it can be done in a year. Also I knew at least one who did the distance learning quicker than the full-time course I did.

In the UK at least the integrated course quotes I saw when deciding were around one year. I don't know where your timescale of a year and a half comes from. I saw quotes from Spanish schools for 2-year courses, but they seem to do a very long groundschool.

Nevertheless Mcgoo sounds to be doing uncommonly well, and must be working damned hard to get taht schedule while working. Well done mate!

[boogie-nicey]

Sin Bin: Well done, you got it done, no debt (I'm proud) and held down the fundamentals of a family life. I don't know what New FO problem is questioning what you've done and in what timescale, there's no need for that kind of comment.

Well done, why is it necessary to get into debt for training? The optimum should be a debt free situation. Many seem to think we all have to be in the same boat, well that's just not the case. There was no need to post such sarcastic notes about SinBin.
:(

[littco]

I take my hat off to anyone that can complete the course, work full time and can do it in 15 months.. Fair play.

[boogie-nicey]

In fact I get quite annoyed (not too much, just a little bit :) ) when people seem to think that we all need to take a certain amount of time to complete a course (usually more than the integrated brigade). People who work full-time can complete it just as fast, why because they are prepared to deny themselves all manner of everyday respites, luxuries, etc after a hard day's work and hit the books they moment they get home.

The time taken is down to how hard the student wishes to work ... not necessarily. Actually it's how much they wish to give up. Many f/t integrated students and graduates need to realise that their's isn't the only way to skin a cat and the guys in parallel (mods) are sometimes even more motivated (they have to be in order to compensate the disadvatnage of the modular label).

The guy starting the race at the back of the grid is like a bat out of hell simply because they want to get to the front ASAP. That's somewhat similiar to the modular student who knows full well that their path is prejudiced against and they accordingly pull out all the stops in order to get it done, no matter what.

[SinBin]

Cheers Boogey,

It doesn't surprise me at all I did it so quickly, I flew virtually every evening for CPL and IR, did distance learning in 6 months (did hours building during this period) and PPL in a couple of months. Hours building mostly on a longish holiday in the States and most weekends doing 4-8 hours a weekend! I know I explain everything back to front but that's how my brain works this evening.

1.5 years that is all, in that time I even got promoted at work, I'm now totally fooked and I'm sure I've shortened my life by a few years, I turn 30 this year and hopefully a job will wing it's way to me soon (excuse the pun!)!!

New FO, I have a thick skin, see you on the flight deck one day!

[New FO]

Hey that's great. But I honestly did wonder how. Now I know! It may be fairly obvious that I've come through the integrated route and it was bloody hard work! (All be it every one seems to think we're spoon fed blah blah blah.) It's interesting to see the different way our mutual goal is achieved. Sin Bin...best of luck with finding a job. Whoever it was questioning the whole time scale thing... From someone who's done the integrated course, through a big school...1.5 yrs is how long it takes, granted, that includes a bit of job hunting and a type rating at then end.

[SinBin]

I haven't got to that stage yet, maybe you could let me know how you got a job!!

[boogie-nicey]

Good, now that's sorted and we're all friends again lets's move onwards and upwards :)

[SinBin]

Back to this guy in Pilot, well done to him, I just hope for his sake, in 5 years when his job has lost its novelty factor, he thinks the £100K is worth it when he can't afford the house he wants!

[boogie-nicey]

Very true, the practicality of life and it's responsibilities will always come through and though he's employed he'll quickly realise that the employment is simply to repay his debt. Lets hope he doesn't disregard his debt and then find himself in a compromised position in terms of emplyment during a downturn.

£100k is a fantastic amount of unsecured debt and it's need to be looked at away from the patronage of 'aviation' and seen simply as the banks would .... your name and the amount. What OAT are doing is somewhat irresponsible when they charge what they do and then the course ends up being even more expensive. In such situations you're eventually going to come across the chap who never got employed. Now think what that would do to his/her family, the kids future, your future. FTOs are cutting as many corners as possible to market and spin their service but at the rate they're going they are practically turning themselves into a casino, either win big or loose big, that's not the way it should be.

[speedrestriction]

What OAT are doing is somewhat irresponsible when they charge what they do and then the course ends up being even more expensive. In such situations you're eventually going to come across the chap who never got employed. Now think what that would do to his/her family, the kids future, your future.

Surely you don't expect FTOs to take responsibility for the private finances of individuals. Nobody is forced into flight training.

SR

[boogie-nicey]

Precisely it's YOUR responsibility and therefore I feel you need to take that into account when making decisions about flight training. Too many FTOs are able to lead people by their noses away from the practical aspects of everyday life and that's where the problem lies. The individual has to keep his/her wits about them like in any sales environment. You have the money and they want it and will attempt to get it from you with their sales pitch. That's just the nature of the beast I'm afraid ......

[New FO]

On this note. There was something Will (the chap in Pilot) mentioned in a previous article, about 9 months ago. Ask the schools exactly how many graduates have gone to which airlines off which courses. More importantly ask the exact numbers that aren't emplyed and why. If its a good FTO, they should tell you shouldn't they? Seems like a sound peice of advice and good screening question. It'd be a shame to see someone up the stream with no paddle, £100k of debt and bank sharks after them. I guess it must happen every now and then.

[boogie-nicey]

Maybe people (this chap in Pilot's article included) should ask themselves do I have the ability to save £100K thenm what right have I got to spend £100K by whatever means? The interest charged on £100K is itself high and this fool has clearly not learnt anything other ATPL knowledge, how about a bit of common sense.

Lets have another article on the guy that sacrificed all at OAT and in the end .... didn't work out. Lets hear what he has to say with his head held in his hands and mumbling intermitently through his tears :(

[New FO]

This will be my last post here as I feel very little can be learnt here and the only entertainment being provided is by Bogey - Nicey. I find myself laughing at his pessimistic personality every day!

Some advice from someone that actually doesn fly a jet, not sit on here all day talking about others that do...

SinBin... Matey, you seem like a good chap. Invest time in filling out those applications and not talking to people who wish they were in your shoes. Its obvious oyu will succeed and I sincerely hope I see you on a flight deck. Remember, this industry is all about making contacts, thats how I got my job as do most.

Bogey - Nicey... A pilot generally has his head screwed on. Generally doesnt thrive on rumors and idle gossip. I get the impression you envy the likes of us in jobs and probably wish you will one day be able to get yourself on a sponsored scheme or save enough money to fund a course that will get you that job.

WHy is this silly thread so full of poison? Who cares about talking about he lads in 100k of debt? I am, I'm very young and earn a huge flying salary. Actually, I can chop my salary in half, still pay my loan and still have a fun month! Thats the reality of it!

How we have the right to spend so much money at such a young age? It's because we're bloody clever and are able to pay it back! I run a business other than flying as do a lot of integrated chaps. (Mainly property related, as I believe Will (the mag) is envolved, I can also imagine most of his loan is paid by the mag.

Good luck to those serious about getting on the flight deck and providing a responsible service...
Good riddens to those who'd rather put no effort in but sit by there computers all day offering words of wisdom...that quite frankly...are not wise at all...

I'm done!

[Skintman]

Hey Boogie-Nicey

Why do you have such an axe to grind with the FTOs? They provide the training that lots of Wannabies want. That's why they are oversubscribed.

It's not the FTO's fault that the airlines stopped sponsoring. It's just the economic reality of today. Perhaps the airlines will start sponsoring again, and there is a glimmer of it starting, but we just have to live with the reality of the current situation.

The airlines deal with the FTO's, as it's easiest route to get pilots and the FTO's provide a steady stream of them. So what's the big deal.

If Wannabies don't want to shell out the cash, then train another route. It's not compulsory to use a main FTO, they have a choice. The costs are known upfront and not exactly hidden. So why the downer on the FTO's?

It's not just pilot training that needs big cash. Training to be a vet, doctor, architect etc needs loads and 5-6 years. Lots of fees and accommadation to shell out and lower starting salaries than pilots.

Skintman

[boogie-nicey]

I am not trying to be pessimistic but simply trying to comment on certain side issues that people neglect from time to time. I talk about debt because it can hurt lives. Indeed if it is managed well then no problem go right ahead (in fact many businesses do but they manage it effectively not blindly).

I am one of life's optimists and wish my fellow ppruners well in their job hunt, I'm sorry if my opinions came across in a cross wired fashion. Also I don't have an axe to grind other than with some antics exhibited by some FTOs, but on the whole they provide a service that people want and I'm very respectful of that.

[Skintman]

Boogey-nicey

You sound pretty one sided against the FTO's to me.

Being pessimistic can demotivate all those that are spending their cash at the FTO's or those that are considering using a FTO.

It's simple. If someone wants to be a pilot, check out the various options on offer and make your choice. Everyone appreciates that there is a lot of cash involved, but as the airlines are not sponsoring, a wannabie has to do it himself one way or another. It can be done either fast and expensive, or slower and cheaper.

Shout at the ailines for not sponsoring, not the FTO's who just want to train pilots and fill demand.

Skintman+

[boogie-nicey]

Like I said I'm sorry if my comments were misunderstood initally. I realise that people have to pay alot for flight training, that's fine. In fact once they complete their fATPL some go onto SSTR and Line Training, that's fine too (what I'm about to do by the way) but I was merely highlighting the danger of loosing sight of expenditure.

[sicky]

I'd just like to add that whether someone is being fully negative about the FTO's or not, it is always useful to be brought back down to earth sometimes. I've occasionally had my head runaway with ideas only to read some bad experiences and "goings ons" and realise that everything needs careful consideration.

It's not all fairytales so don't expect that to be all you hear, at the same time, persistantly putting people/places down for the hell of it doesn't help too much either.

It would be nice to hear the good stories, AND the bad stories, without the hint of bitterness that is often there at the same time!

[SinBin]

I agree with you NewFO, I am still trying, any chance you can PM me and let me know how you got your job? Also I'm always amazed how 90% of threads on here go Mod V Int, as far as I can see there's no difference, the only difference being you get a PPL, which, let's face it for me now means fook all!! I just can't beleive I took my wife flying with such low hours!