A big warning to wannabes

[piperindian]

I did a JAR ATPL some years ago, it was one of the worst decision i ever made
IT costs you 50k or more, takes 2-3 years at best.
I found the JAR theory no so easy and sometimes boring.

At the end you get 100s of rejection letters by airlines. When you get to know people inside the industry, you meet lots of experienced jet pilots on the dole (sometimes bitter for obvious reasons), struggling instructors ...

Would i do it again : NO WAY !!
I would even prefer playing the lottery : at least you have a chance to win something.

Then some guys talk fo getting a type : dont even think about it. It elapses very rapidly and is worthless without hours on type.

[jamie2004]

yeah thanks for the advice, wise word by the looks of it! what would you recommend to do instead; looking back?

[smith]

Are you related toA320rider? Seriously this carbon tax could knock the growth of aviation travel on the head

[Chesty Morgan]

I too did a JAR ATPL some years ago. It was the BEST decision I've ever made.

Yes it costs circa 50k, but it's an investment (I now earn more than that a year) And it only took me 54 WEEKS.

Who said it was going to be easy? Yes some of it is boring but, if you want an ATPL, a good job (which isn't really work), a good life style and lottsa money, you need to do it.

At the end you get a licence which allows you to fly any where in the world. Yes you get lots of rejection letters. But you will, eventually, get an acceptance letter. I've never met an experienced jet pilot who is on the dole.

Would I do it again? YES every time.

Don't give up you guys, it's more than worth it.

Oh...and I've never won anything on the lottery.

[Martin4]

Now thats the posts i like to read, a good bit of inspiration.


But now you have yoru licence piperindian isnt there something else you can try? what about instruction, air taxi, air photography and im sure there are many others... It might not be a job with a airline as you imagined but at least its a flying job:ok:. Or if its due to the interview that you're not getting a job then perhaps a interview course to help you with your interview skills?

[Pilot Pete]

Oh he's back again after a year or so absence. He was 'piping' this old tosh out then. Just ignore him and he may go away again.

PP

[Touch'n'oops]

Lads,

Don't get knocked down! It is always hard to know what airlines want. Then again, often it is 'right time, right place'. I have seen it over and over.

One thing that I have noticed is that it is not easy to select the people who are going to be picked up by an airline. There have been some people I have looked at and thought they are not going to make it, but then again, I have been proved wrong. There is no model to follow and it is this inconsistency which plants seeds of doubt.

I wish there was a formula for the perfect pilot, but this is not the case.

What is apparent? The guys and girls who want it bad enough, and have the aptitude to get through the ground school and flying, will get that job. Anyone who others and I believed was not completely focused, never went much further.

So you want to be a pilot? Then be ready to sacrifice your first born... If you can show this simple commitment then time will pay off. In simple text... you better want it or go home!!!

Do you have doubt? I suggest you DON'T do it! If you think I am talking sh*t!!! Think...

Whatever you do, do not delude yourself, but aim high. The industry has changed, therefore I suggest you get to grips... What to do now!!!... ???

Isn't life a ....???
T'n'O

[jamie2004]

thanks touch'n'oops i trust what you have to say! does give me enthusiasm and does make me want to spend thousands on training!:ok:

[Mercenary Pilot]

Im sorry you feel that way piperindian. I can sympathise with what you say. I'm rated on the 737 but cant even get an airline interview nevermind a full time job. However, I have managed to get a little air-taxi work. There so much I dislike about what I do and a few years ago I wouldn’t have put up with any of that ****e.

Thing is, when I line up on the runway, ease the throttles up to full power, rotate and select the gear up....none of that matters anymore, im doing what I wanted to do since I was a small child and that is to fly. Sounds corny but aviation has given me so much, great friends, long term goals, life experience, people skills and so much more. I couldn't imagine doing anything else with my life.

I've met so many bitter pilots but to be honest it just makes me more determined not to end up like that. I will NEVER give up, maybe I’ll never get an airline job but I KNOW that I’ll have a great career flying something somewhere (or even lots of planes in lots of places). I just want to be the best pilot I can be and make ends meet.

Screw the lottery, it’s a game of chance. YOUR career is in YOUR hands! Nobody said it was going to be easy (ok maybe some flying school marketing rep did but screw them too!) so have a word with yourself and get them CV's out again. If you don’t try, you will never succeed!

Man, I enjoyed getting that off my chest!:ok:

Regards

Mercenary Pilot
(because you ain't a professional 'till you get paid)

[ATC83]

Lads and Lasses...Dont know what that piperindian character is on about...seems to be a sense of bitterness perhaps from being turned down so often?? :rolleyes:
there have never been so many opportunities about as there are now. Seriously, for all you wannabe's, there is no better time to work for the career you want.

1) If you want it bad enough, you will get it. Without question.
2) Recruitment has never been as high as it is right now...there is such a major shortage of pilots! (Some airlines are lowering their direct entry pilot requirements because they are so short of crew)
3) With regard to a whether there is a certain type of person that airlines are after.....I trained with guys from all kinds of different backgrounds and experiences on a sponsored scheme, all of which have gone to airlines and are coping fine. Everyone has a chance.

Regarding not getting the type rating that PiperIndian mentioned....these days so many airlines love type rated pilots. Getting a 320 family rating or 737 rating opens up so many horizons... With the low-cost airlines so desperate there couldn't be a better type rating to get if you have to pay for it yourself. It saves them cash, gives you a better chance of getting in and also shows the recruitment team that extra bit of dedication on your behalf. Think of it like this.....
I know so many people that have spent a fortune on doing a degree and wasted thousands (Mainly on beer in student bars :rolleyes: !)...but have ended up doing jobs that they hate....at least if you invest those thousands into the career you want to do, it gives you a far greater chance of getting where you want to be. (and when you're earning a very good wage in a job that you want, you can then spend the thousands on beer that you didn't at Uni!) ;)

P.s. And PiperIndian, I think a little more inspiration for the guys out there that desperately want to fly would be quite helpful to them, dont you think?!!:ok:

[aw8565]

Someone with an ATPL complaining about it?

To a colour blind wannabe that just hurts!

I'm getting my PPL soon (hopefully) so I'll scratch the itch that way!

Happy landings to all you with ATPL's that are happy about it.... which has to be what, 99.99%?!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Right chaps, this bloke pops up every couple of months and says there are no jobs, that JAA is terrible and that training is a waste of time.

Whereas in fact the hiring market is red hot, the JAA Frzn ATPL is cheaper in real terms than the old CAP509 course was that it replaced and there has never been a better time to train.

So please - don't feed the trolls.

Cheers

WWW

[piperindian]

some hard facts :
of the 10 guys and gals who did the frozen ATPL (modular) course, only 1 found an airline job.
Obviously there were many airline bankruptcies the last years, which did have a knock-down effect.
I've never met an experienced jet pilot who is on the dole.
I met one some days ago
Right chaps, this bloke pops up every couple of months and says there are no jobs, that JAA is terrible and that training is a waste of time.
Whereas in fact the hiring market is red hot, the JAA Frzn ATPL is cheaper in real terms than the old CAP509 course was that it replaced and there has never been a better time to train.
So please - don't feed the trolls.
Cheers
WWW
totally wrong WWW i have not posted for a long time on this board. this post is not a troll. All the facts are true and i estimate i have a rigth to express my opinion.
If you estimate the hiring market is red hot, why dont you post some hard facts ?

[ouioui]

I jump on the opportunity to introduce myself on this always hot topic. First I want to apologize for my english because I'm a Froggy...:O

So here I come, I'm a 33 years old wanabee with a PPL, and after 10 not so boring years of computer job, I think i've missed something, and I think now's the time to do what i'm done for : to fly.

So what? I went visiting french air schools, ESMA, airways. The only thing that I wanted to do then is to run away. Theese guys are crazy. To make it short, the message is "it will cost you 60k€ and we are sure you won't find any job". Waoh! Interesting, uh?
Then I went to Quebec, to visit as many school that I could, 2500 km by car... Well, a little less expensive, but very strange. They offer FI jobs to every CPL student? how is it possible? The only one that seemed to be honnest (Grondair) is offering a fire patrol job (something like 200 h a year). But considering the need to move, the price is nearly the same then ESMA.

Piperindian, is your only goal was to be hired painlessly by BA? On the french forums, guys seems to have only AF in mind. Aren't there other jobs opportunities than airline? I mean if I want to live from flying, what are the others jobs I can aim? And may be the correct question is *where* are the others jobs I can aim?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

piperindian - i respect your 'right' to express an opinion on our bulletin board by not deleting your rambling posts.

Well the facts are plain for me to see but difficult to point to factually.

What I do know is that easyJet need to recruit 200 new pilots next year. I know that Ryanair have just ordered an additional 10 737's for delivery in less than 12 months. Those two facts alone mean that two companies need more pilots next year than were hired in the whole of 2002/2003.

Competition for your first job is vicious and nasty. Nevertheless - the hiring market is as hot as it is likely to get.

Good luck,

WWW

[Martin4]

WWW,

How often do these... lets say "hot spots" in the recreuitment of the industry usualy pop up?

[FougaMagister]

WWW is bang on. I qualified 3 years ago and the situation had changed quite a bit from when I started training (9/11 and all that). No jobs for low hour frozen ATPLs. Too bad. Over 350 applications to operators/airlines all over, folders full of "thanks, but no thanks" answers.

What to do in the meantime? Well, back to Cabin Crew again (networking from the inside, and it pays the bills), getting to do some light a/c ferry flights through a good mate (keeps the hours up free of charge), then getting a dispatcher job at a major airport - and more networking.

The result? Three (sometimes frustrating) years down the road, I have some very good contacts, one interview done (with the sim ride soon), another one in a few weeks and I expect at least another later in the summer!

Bottom line: there are jobs out there, but:

1/ you have to do your own networking; writing CVs just doesn't work anymore, you have to be more proactive, go for them and sometimes accept some poorly-paid airport job in order to put your foot through the door

2/ most low-hour FO jobs are NOT advertised; the airlines get enough unsollicited applications anyway, so better be recommended (more networking)

3/ Get an airside job. Best thing I ever did. I know more about the operation and routines of some of the outfits I dispatch than some of the newbies FOs I come accross. In the end, if you work diligently, the powers that be (Chief Pilots, FODs, training captains, etc.) will notice and be happy to help out.

4/ Did I mention networking?

Some people get knocked down by the whole thing. If anything, 3 years of trying, and renewing the IR, medical etc. at my expense have made me even keener to find that first flying job. Chin up! The jobs are there - but you have to make them come your way.

Cheers :cool:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This business is one huge cycle. If you were looking for a job in 1988, 1999, 2006 you were laughing and picking. If you were looking for a jon in 1991, 2002 you were crying. The only unusual thing is that the industry has recovered so quickly (5 years) since Sept 12th.

The next downturn IS coming - nobody knows why where or when but it is around the corner, unfortunately history says so.

WWW

[CptSilva]

I´m in the half way to get my license, alot of time, money and headaches. I´m doing modular and working at the same time, i´m 28yrs.
If i regret?

NO WAY


Some of us do it for the money, some of us do it for the pleasure and because we have personality.

And...

piperindian

Yes i agree with you that it was the worst decision you ever made, you are not made to be a pilot you give to easy.


For the rest of us, keep trying dont give up ever. Remember this, flying is a pleasure not some comercial contract you make with an airline, we fly because we like!!!


Keep the Dream alive!!!!!

[piperindian]

CptSilva,
Yes i agree with you that it was the worst decision you ever made, you are not made to be a pilot you give to easy.
i think you dont know what you are talking about.
first of all if you get to the end of obtaining a frozen ATPL (modular) while working full-time at the same time like i did (with all the sacrifices) it shows a certain commitment and organisation.
I knew it would not be easy but as i said 1 on 10 got a job in an airline. when you play the lottery, the odds are better (its like 30% i believe)
I did not even speak of the guys who did not finish the frozen ATPL training.
Remember this, flying is a pleasure not some comercial contract you make with an airline, we fly because we like!!!
OK. then you dont need a frozen ATPL. A PPL/IFR (which is a totally different thing) will suffice. I dont think you need to know the JAR ATPL theory to fly a C172 (even in IFR cross-country).
Most of the ATPL theory is about large transport airplanes.

[Chesty Morgan]

Unfortunately you can not receive money for your services if you only have a PPL. Surely you know that from the ATPL theory.

Go away.

[Mercenary Pilot]

The Jackpot - 6 Numbers (Typical prize: £2 million)
6 numbers are drawn at random from the set of integers between 1 and 49, which means there are 49!/(6!*(49-6)!) combinations of numbers (the draw order doesn't matter). The means that the jackpot chance is 1 in 13,983,816 or approximately 1 in 14 million.
5 Numbers + Bonus Number (Typical prize: £100,000)
You are still matching 6 numbers from the 1 to 49 set as above, but you can now do it in 6 different ways (by dropping each of the main numbers in turn), therefore the chance is 1 in 13,983,816/6, which works out as 1 in 2,330,636.
5 Numbers (Typical prize: £1,500)
This is 42 times more likely than getting 5 numbers + the bonus number because, after the first six balls are drawn, there are 43 balls left and you can match 42 of these 43 balls without matching the bonus number. Therefore the chance is 1 in 2,330,636/42, which evaluates to 1 in 55,491.33333.
4 Numbers (Typical prize: £65)
Firstly, let's take the case of the first 4 of your numbers matching and the last 2 not matching. In this single case (where each set of chances relies on the previous event occurring):
Chance that your 1st number matches a winning number is 1 in 49/6.
Chance that your 2nd number matches a winning number is 1 in 48/5.
Chance that your 3rd number matches a winning number is 1 in 47/4.
Chance that your 4th number matches a winning number is 1 in 46/3.
Chance that your 5th number doesn't match a winning number is 1 in 45/(45-2) [because there are still 2 unmatched winning numbers].
Chance that your 6th number doesn't match a winning number is 1 in 44/(44-2) [yes, still 2 unmatched winning numbers].
Now you need to accumulate all those chances by multiplying them together:
1 in (49/6)*(48/5)*(47/4)*(46/3)*(45/43)*(44/42) which is 1 in 15486.953. Now this is the chance for that single case occurring, but there are 15 combinations of matching 4 from 6 [6!/(4!*(6-4)!)], so you divide the answer by 15 to get 1 in 15486.953/15 or 1 in 1032.4.
3 Numbers (Constant prize: £10)
Follow exactly the same scheme as the 4 match above to get these figures:
1 in (49/6)*(48/5)*(47/4)*(46/43)*(45/42)*(44/41) (which is 1 in 1133.119) for a single case. There are 20 combinations of 3 from 6 [6!/(3!*(6-3)!], so the chance of a 3 match is 1 in 1133.119/20 or 1 in 56.7.More chance of an airline job I think.:p

piperindian, are you only interested in airline work?

[CptSilva]

CptSilva,
i think you dont know what you are talking about.
first of all if you get to the end of obtaining a frozen ATPL (modular) while working full-time at the same time like i did (with all the sacrifices) it shows a certain commitment and organisation.
I knew it would not be easy but as i said 1 on 10 got a job in an airline. when
you play the lottery, the odds are better (its like 30% i believe)
I did not even speak of the guys who did not finish the frozen ATPL training.
OK. then you dont need a frozen ATPL. A PPL/IFR (which is a totally different thing) will suffice. I dont think you need to know the JAR ATPL theory to fly a C172 (even in IFR cross-country).
Most of the ATPL theory is about large transport airplanes.



Yes i know what i´m talking about, i work in aviation for 6 years, more training and knowledge about aviation that you dont imagine, a Degree in Aviation and several other trainings, i know is hard to get the JAA ATPL Theory done, but this is a knowledge that i want to get, i like to learn more and more every day about something like to do. It´s not important for me if i fly a C172 or 747. I love aviation and i dont want to die stupid.
My dream is among others fly, it´s hard and everyone in this Forum know that, we dont need someone that say´s stop dreaming, if you dont believe, that is your problem, and once again i say, you are not made to be a pilot, you just analyse aviation as another Job, but the problem is that AVIATION IS THE JOB!!!!


For me this Thread end´s know,


Best luck for all of you that are trying to be a Pilot!!!



Best Regards

[BEagle]

People, do please NB the harsh reality; that you can have all the bits of paper, type ratings, whatever - but if you don't meet the airline's HR requirements, you won't get a job.

Sadly, it seems from airline recruiters' comments that roughly 50% of those who apply are unemployable. Because they are not seen by the airline as being the type of people the airline wishes ever to employ.

Hence the reason why many schools are now conducting assessment tests before admitting students......

[ONEWORLD_86]

What I do know is that easyJet need to recruit 200 new pilots next year.

The most recent figures are around 500 pilots next year, through a mixture of TRSS and DEP and cadets.

With regards to the licence- was the best thing i have ever done!:ok:

[Cactus99]

Well I rekon Piperindian, you should go and play the lottery and do us all a favour!!

With a pesamistic attitude like you have, is it any wonder you haven't got a job? I think you may be surprised just how many people have achieved a lot more than you have. Why, because they have the right attitude and determination!

Rant over. :ugh:

[ATC83]

Yes but Piperindian you do need a CPL to do air taxi, etc etc. I really cant understand what you are on about. These guys are working hard like most to achieve their dream of becoming a pilot, whether it be airlines or something else. And you seem to be knocking their confidence in getting a job because of your own experience. Like I said before,everyone is different and everyone has their chance. You have obviously blown yours so let others have theirs...

What ever you do guys keep working at it...its well worth it. From a personal point of view, I put the effort in and now fly the 737 for a decent airline. A Few friends didn't want to fly commercially, they wanted to instruct...its crap money but they enjoy it and get to fly - and their view is that they get paid for doing what they love, instead of being stuck in an office with higher management breathing down their neck!. Whether it be a 737 or a 152, its all flying and all well worth the effort - and a great buzz!

ATC

[eagle172]

hello.im an aspiring pilot and i just completed my ppl. I am lookn for some guidance on flight programs/schools that may be right for the money? i only have 65 hrs. and want tht coveted flying job just like the rest.i would like to work abroad so i may want get jaa liscensing. i know right now its way too early to be talkn bout tht but i just want to get all the info straight. i really want to get this right cause i only have one chance and limit cash.any input and i would greatly appreciate it.

[wanns]

well am really shocked with the way a full pilot holding an ATPL licence is lacking a job . well all i can say to you is to keep trying and stop discouraging us the young wanabes . trust me since my childhood i have always wanted to be a pilot though at one time i decided to go for a B.A Adminstration , well still i feel like i havent reached to what i really want . all i can request you is for you to give me some knowledge on how you got your sponsoship for ATPL coz am seriously looking for one and i promise you that after my course i will get a job straight away thanks

[scroggs]

Shocked? You haven't read much about this business, have you! Read this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649) for a start.

Aviation - particularly airline flying - is a very precarious business. Companies go bust frequently and rapidly. Unemployment is a constant danger and worry for almost any professional pilot. You could regard this occupation much like the theatre - an occasional enforced period of 'rest' is an occupational hazard! Many wannabes never ever get the job they've paid so much money to train for - even now, in the best hiring market for many years.

I admire your positive attitude, but get a reality check before you lay out too much dosh...

Scroggs

[High Wing Drifter]

roughly 50% of those who apply are unemployable.
As Beagle says! Although not sure what clothes one wears to the exam centre has much influence ;)

A few months ago on Radio 4, they has a pilot from BA in an interview. The subject was the current pilot shortage. The BA Pilot made the point that there are hundreds of qualified pilots out there who are completely unemployable, not only from BA's perspective, but also from the perspective of many airlines. The net result is that BA are struggling to find appropriate people.

It is a sobering thought as for all I know, I am unemployable! But I'm arrogant/confident/stupid enough to find that unbelievable. Anyway, it was either a rapidly depreciating BMW M3 or an fATPL and I know which I prefer :ok:

[piperindian]

With a pesamistic attitude like you have, is it any wonder you haven't got a job? I think you may be surprised just how many people have achieved a lot more than you have. Why, because they have the right attitude and determination!

Sure, Cactus99
Of the 10 guys who finished the ATPL course (modular) only one found a job because the others were "pessimistic". Dont make me laugh !
I wish i had indeed played the lottery but now its a bit too late (the 50k is gone)

well am really shocked with the way a full pilot holding an ATPL licence is lacking a job . well all i can say to you is to keep trying and stop discouraging

wanns, you're easily shocked !
for your information i know unemployed jet pilots with 1000s of hours (sometimes they flew for majors who went bankrupt in the last years). if you just read the newspapers, you will learn some airlines went bankrupt in the last years or furloughed a lot of pilots.

[sywell-flyer]

I was just lurking and thought I'd add a point...

Like in many industries having the bit of paper doesn't mean that you automatically have all of the other attributes that an employer wants. I hoped to get a top job in IT with one of the investent banks after doing excellent at uni but couldn't even get a look in. Now after a few years experience in different areas and a lot of character building I'm now working at the level I always wanted.

My point? Don't always assume that the bit of paper is the ticket to the job you want. Maybe (probably) the attributes that the FTO's look for and the one's the airlines look for don't always match up. Sometimes you need to take a bit of time to look at what other aspects of your CV and your character you can build on to give you the edge over everone else. Also never give up because there is almost always a way to get what you want...eventually!

[speedrestriction]

Is piperindian talking about the U.S. jobs market or the European jobs market?

We might all be talking at crossed purposes.

sr

[Nimrod615]

I've been qualified for nearly 18 months now and I know all about the downs you go through. I'm still in one for many reasons. Unfortunately finance is the biggest problem, which in turn affects the hours issue(work as an instructor and not earn enough to pay the banks back or do another job and watch others building the hours). This affects the emotional side of things and it gets hard at times to motivate yourself when you're down about it all. I have come close to posting the same sort of thing as Piperindian but then I gave myself a kick up the backside.

With that sort of negative feeling towards the industry you'll have no chance!

I'm still looking for that first job and I do believe it will come! Only because I have changed my attitude towards it and, if I'm honest, trying harder to get it! Its not going to be easy! It does suck right now! It will be worth it! And most of all it WONT get me down anymore. As soon as it does, you've lost!

Piperindian. You sound depressed! See somebody!

Good luck to all

[Tuned In]

It is pointless posting on this topic without saying which country you are talking about. The UK is the origin of more PPRuNers than any other, so we have to correct some of the points that are completely wrong for the UK in the original post from PiperIndian.

It does not cost "50k or more", in pounds. It costs from about £40k to whatever is needed in the UK, all flying done here.

It does not "take 2-3 years at best". It can be done in little over a year, even in 12 months if you are bright, a good pilot and work hard plus do some hour building in a more stable climate than the UK.

He is right that the JAR theory is not easy, and is sometimes boring. The job is not easy and is sometimes boring. If you are looking for an easy job with excitement all the time, you are looking in the wrong place. Try drug running or armed robbery

If you meet "lots of experienced jet pilots on the dole" in the UK then you are hanging about with people who have made some major foul up in their career. I could name 4 carriers just off the top of my head well-known in the UK who simply cannot get enough experienced crews to run the programmes they want to. Almost everyone I know who has a licence is now flying for pay, from instructors through turboprop FOs, one promised command soon after 2000 hours (so desperate are his employers for Captains) to one who is on his second job, second jet job in fact, having finished his IR about 3 years ago.

As for a type rating it really depends what you want. I know people who have got jobs out of it, and know others who have only paid when offered the job (some Ryanair, but others too). I also know others who have made different investments, like picking up the hours for single-crew IFR flying, because that is the flying they want to do.

[scroggs]

Is piperindian talking about the U.S. jobs market or the European jobs market?
We might all be talking at crossed purposes.
sr
As piperindian said in his first post in this thread, he did a JAA fATPL not an FAA one. That means Europe.

A brief study of piperindian's posting history will teach you all you need to know about him.

Scroggs

[AlphaMale]

As a newbie it's difficult to see what the market 'really' is like. But from what I can read it seems people who have the ticket and a A320 / 737 Type, a good personality and looks at the positive side of life tend to get jobs with airlines within a year or two.

I will be getting the medical done before I do anything with the CPL etc but either way I will be doing my PPL as I just want to fly again.

I'd love an Airline job where I walk through the airport with my suit on and people looking at me saying 'There goes the pilot' and giving my a smile. Then jump on my 777 and fly to Florida every week.

But I would also be pretty happy flying a load of Cargo in and out of China in a 737. So long as I get to fly I really don't care.

I'm 24 and hope to have my PPL by then end of the year. I am then setting my target of getting my APTL within 2 years of that. So at 26/27, a ticket to fly nice planes and have what I believe to be the qualities of a good airline pilot I am hoping I don't have to wait until my mid thirties before I get my first job in the aviation industry.

I am sure there are people like 'piperindian' who spend £40k on getting the slips to fly the big birds but never get the chance as a career due to not 'fitting in'. I am going to go with what the rest of the people say about there being a shortage of jobs spend my £40k ... I'm only earning just over £20k per year as a web designer but I think if I get a 50/50 chance of getting an airline job out of it then I'm in. (But then I always see the glass as half full).

I'm even half tempted to do a language course in Spanish/French to open up my possible airlines job opportunities. I speak 2 languages at the moment and the girlfriend speaks 4 (Her degree was in French and German though).

Andrew

[speedrestriction]

Thanks Scroggs,

I'll read more carefully before posting next time. However,

Piperindian:
"for your information i know unemployed jet pilots with 1000s of hours (sometimes they flew for majors who went bankrupt in the last years). if you just read the newspapers, you will learn some airlines went bankrupt in the last years or furloughed a lot of pilots"

Are these acquaintances of your's JAA or FAA rated? If not JAA rated, is their situation relevant to this thread about your JAA license? If they are JAA rated have they not applied to Easyjet, Ryanair or Flybe for example?
All the above companies are recruiting at a pretty smart rate.
I find your posts a little hard to swallow. :oh:


sr

[wingnut-will]

Hi all, this is my first post here and I'd thought I'd put my first 2 pence here.

As a new PPL, going on to ATPL, I found piperindians posts a little disheartening....for about 2 nanoseconds. In fact I dont describe myself as a wannabe but as a gonnabe. I know getting an airline job isnt easy, but life isnt either. But I've seen this all before....

I work on Oil Rigs and Platforms in the North Sea, and clear 2k for 2 weeks work (2on/2off rota). I knew working offshore was the only way I was gonna get enough cash for the CPL/IR. But it was really difficult getting offshore with no experience. The first thing they would ask you is 'Do you have experience?' The next was 'Would like us to keep you on file?' I finally got away with an operator instead of an agency. The point is: if you dont succeed at first try again. You're taking the wrong attitude no matter how many times you've tried. Also, I would like to say that working offshore is a good way of getting money quick, if you can hack it.

Future ATPL's shouldnt be put off by this dudes posts! Fortune favours the persistant.:)

[scroggs]

SR yes, he does use American terminology. Airlines in Europe do not 'furlough' pilots - they sack them!

There are several operators in Europe (including UK) that have gone bust or seriously contracted in the last year. Many pilots have thus been forced back into the market. Some of them, for a variety of circumstantial reasons, may struggle to get further employment. It is not at all unusual to come across experienced pilots who are unemployed - ask the BALPA Employment Service. The market is better (in UK, but not necessarily elsewhere) than it has been for several years, but this is a notoriously insecure profession.

Scroggs

[DeltaSix]

Friend, here's food for thought. I was like you a few months ago but.... here it is....

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."
--Calvin Coolidge, 30th President of the United States, 1932

Go get a furlough, R & R, re-group and try again.....

Goodluck

Deltasix

[Aussie_Aviator]

Most of the ATPL theory is about large transport airplanes.

Funny that ! :rolleyes:

[Capt Pit Bull]

Seems to me a goodly number of you are getting stuck into this guy for saying something you would rather not contemplate.

Sounds rather like confirmation bias to me.

The fact of the matter is that flying is a highly risky career option: Huge up front costs (don't forget to account for your lost income during training), uncertain employment prospects, worsening T&Cs not to mention the teenie little snag of the depletion of oil reserves.

You guys need to take off your rose tinted spectacles.

CPB

[Aussie_Aviator]

You guys need to take off your rose tinted spectacles.


Why? I love the view through them.
Especially the new framed version by 'Ray Ban.' I hear the 'Aviator' style (you know, like Top Gun) are coming back into fashion ;)

[Whirlygig]

Quote:
Originally Posted by piperindian
Most of the ATPL theory is about large transport airplanes.


Funny that ! :rolleyes:

It's especially hilarious when you have to do the same exams for a helicopter licence! :ugh:

Cheers

Whirls

[AlphaMale]

Seems to me a goodly number of you are getting stuck into this guy for saying something you would rather not contemplate.

Sounds rather like confirmation bias to me.

The fact of the matter is that flying is a highly risky career option: Huge up front costs (don't forget to account for your lost income during training), uncertain employment prospects, worsening T&Cs not to mention the teenie little snag of the depletion of oil reserves.

You guys need to take off your rose tinted spectacles.

CPB

I am not getting stuck into this guy, My uncle knows of two people (who are a couple infact) that loved flying one was an officer worker like myself the other a plumber/leccy (one or the other).

They both had their PPL's for 2 years before deciding to go for their full ticket for the big birds, They have both landed ailine jobs :) ... this was about 10 years ago mind.

They took the risk and I'm sure they don't regret it.

I'll take the risk too, I am not stupid and I'll look at the big picture before spending my money but from what I have learned on here it's not as easy as just passing the exams and BA will come running toward you with 777 begging you to fly them.

As I said in a previous post as long as I am flying I am happy to earn the same as I was in the office. If I can get £25k+ pa flying then I am happy.

I don't thin there are people looking through their rose tinted spectacles here. We all know the risks but I am happy to take that risk and look back knowing I gave it my best shot! If I don't make it ... Then I'll make use of my qualifications and become a FI on weekends or even full time ;)

I don't drink/smoke/take drugs and I'll spend my money on Training and more training :ok:

Andrew

[scroggs]

I refer you all to this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120500) thread. Read it carefully.

Scroggs

[boogie-nicey]

A litttle earlier ppruner's mentioned that as many as 50% were unemployable, can anyone ellaborate on that...?

I'm no HR person and have little knowledge of their 'inner workings' within any industry let alone the aviation one. What is it that makes them unemployable by simply glancing at their CV, I must admit I'd be intrigued to know. Does it differ substantially from one airline/operator to another or is it along the same generic lines throughout the industry?

[wingnut-will]

Right. So everybody thinks that in a few generations global aviation will vanish, and we'll all be crossing the pond on Titanic again? No more pilots anymore huh? So who'll be flying in the next few generations? A rich, well funded elite? Thats not what aviation is about. That seems to be the gist of the gloom n' doomers here.

Well, what if I want to fly because I love it? It doesnt have to be an A380 (although thats what I'd be aiming for), at the end of the day, I'm satisfied flying bits and bobs on a Caravan to and fro, or any other type of aerial work. I dont care. I WANT TO FLY!!! I look up to people like Lindbergh, the Wright bros, Louis Bleriot, Yeager. People who had a dream and a love. They inspired generations. They churned out generations of aviators. If you want the flashy airline job and nothing else, you're in it for the looks.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I'm satisfied flying bits and bobs on a Caravan to and fro, or any other type of aerial work. I dont care. I WANT TO FLY!!!

I salute your passion for your chosen career will, but mate, trust me - you will care when the loan repayments are due! Hate to be a wet blanket, but eyes open and all that. That thread Scroggs gave a link to is an entertaining read, I recommend it!

All the best:ok:

[A320rider]

listen, you think you are smarter than piperindian and his warnings, so why don't you take the first airline job on an airbus, and stop to moan!
if you are here on this forum, it is simply because you have NO JOB and NOBODY is interested by your ridiculous blue cpl license.
stop to dream and get yourself a real job with a real pay like at mac donald...you can send thousand of CV for a pilot job, you will get ONLY rejection letters IN RETURN, and it has nothing to do with your attitude.
At mac donald you can become a assistant chief manager and even get a burger for free once a while.

THEY DO NOT WANT YOU( ME)!!!SO STOP TO HARASS AIRLINES WHO DO NOT WANT YOU AND WHO WILL NEVER HIRE YOU! :{

Please don't flame me!

[Mercenary Pilot]

HAHAHA Classic A320rider...Brilliant!:ok:

[EGBKFLYER]

Got to agree, it is a ridiculous blue...

[Mercenary Pilot]

Got to agree, it is a ridiculous blue...

What are you talking about?!? After all the blood, sweat and tears...Its the most beautiful shade of blue I ever saw in my life!;) :p