View Full Version : Ident ex LHR?
Bearcat
3rd Jul 2006, 15:40
To the ATC people at LHR....whats the story with having to ident now on req after departure? do you want us to give call sign / passing alt , climbing to and sid and also ident for you on first contact?. With respect it seems a hell of a lot of over kill....surely callsign...climbing 6000 and ident would cover a multitude and if one is on a heading this is also added.
Rgds
Bearcat...skipper on the green team
Chesty Morgan
3rd Jul 2006, 15:55
also ident for you on first contact?.
Not unless they ask you to:=
chevvron
3rd Jul 2006, 16:57
It's a legal requirement. ATC can only establish your identity from an 'ident' if they observe you complying with their instruction to ident; it's not a new thing, just that SRG have decided to enforce it.
Bearcat
3rd Jul 2006, 17:31
chesty...drop the finger pointing. been in LHR twice today and ident-ed only on req....we have standards:ugh:
thanks chevron for your reply. ident-ing is just another button to press on busy departures...momentarily takes one away from keeping an eye on the show....no big deal.
bearcat
Chesty Morgan
3rd Jul 2006, 17:38
Bearcat. Calm down. I'm not finger pointing. I'm only trying to point out to others that may read this, those without standards and those that don't know any better but should, that you don't ident unless asked. There's a hell of a lot of it going and it shouldn't be.
Apologies if it didn't come across that way.
MancBoy
3rd Jul 2006, 17:41
It is also possible to use the 'departure method' to establish ident as well.
the squawk ident is also used to auto DM departures as well I believe unless I'm wrong, again!
For those non atc chaps, this is basically to activate the flight plan in the computer system and then we can get time updates and stuff.
Plus, I agree with the "don't ident unless asked" too. Squawk ident is generally our main form of identifying traffic in area control, I can't really see the turn method being used when a 747's turning circle in the cruise is bigger than that of a supertankers.
If we are expecting one return to ident when requested and we end up getting two or more then that can be unsafe in some environments.
3.1.2 Departing Aircraft Method
3.1.2.1 By observing and correlating the radar return of a departing aircraft to a known airborne time. Identification is to be achieved within one mile of the end of the runway unless otherwise authorised by the CAA.
3.1.2.2 Particular care should be taken to avoid confusion with aircraft overflying the aerodrome, making a missed approach, departing from an adjacent runway or holding overhead the aerodrome.
How do you guys get the airborne time? I don't remember ever ringing through with one!
I thought the Auto-DM was down to the code callsign conversion, hence why we get DM s in error if one gets airborne on the wrong squawk that's actually been allocated to a different flight.....
MancBoy
3rd Jul 2006, 17:54
Gonzo, your right about auto DM, i knew I'd be wrong.
Back at West Drayton we used to get departure TV, I'm not sure whether TC still have it.
Swanwick does not have this system which could help to reduce late splits on some sectors, although I do believe it has been recommended to the 4th floor that we get it asap.
The ASMGCS data has replaced the manual method of someone listening in, I wasn't aware if it was accurate enough to give the precise airborne time....
MancBoy
3rd Jul 2006, 18:00
In that case back to the start of this thread, that is why ident is requested on departure as the other system aint reliable and the turn method couldn't be used in the TMA.
rolaaand
3rd Jul 2006, 18:02
you don't ident unless asked. There's a hell of a lot of it going and it shouldn't be.
Spot on.As far as I know a memo was sent to airlines about this last year. It is still a problem UK wide and Easyjet seem to be the biggest culprits where i work. From a pilots point of view i'm sure they feel that identing on departure without a request from ATC to do so is helping speed the whole process along. Unfortunately i find myself too busy on most occasions to correct the error.While I'm 99.9% sure that you are identified,if there is an incident because of a mis-ident then it is me who gets hauled over the coals for not doing my job properly.
point5
3rd Jul 2006, 19:48
Was the original posting regarding the tower asking for a level check or radar? If its regarding a request from the tower its usually so we can provide separation in the event of a go-around if you're SID crosses the other runway!
5milesbaby
3rd Jul 2006, 21:16
Original post:
do you want us to give call sign / passing alt , climbing to and sid and also ident for you on first contact?
basically yes!
Callsign - needed every call
Passing Altitude - we have to verify your level readout for it to be used for vertical separation, our radars have to show within 200ft of what you announce as passing, the first radar agency has to carry this out.
Climbing to - always
SID - cannot answer this one, TMA controller around?
IDENT - only when asked as has been previously said. As for Auto DM working off code/callsign conversion, not every one gets picked up and tracked but an IDENT can somehow make the computer "see" the track and then make the conversion. Same as pairing an unpaired track for those that know the Swanwick workings, it can work.
5mb
Bearcat
3rd Jul 2006, 21:20
folks, this is my last post on this one but with respect i am only asking if it is overkill...i know its regulations.....but from a pilots point all i am saying is we give our details re our sid and then we are asked ident. whats the point?
dont get me wrong...you guys do a trojan job....my little point is over verbalisation on r/t procedures where as by pressing a button confirms a lot of info you need. right or wrong? or just tell me go into my box , go away and go gear up/ down for the rest of my days!!
rgds
bearcat
capt 320
PA18
PPRuNe Radar
3rd Jul 2006, 22:02
Not really overkill since an ident doesn't tell us everything. It only tells us that a pilot has pressed it, which is fine if we are looking at it and not doing something else more important when you make your initial call, but a waste of effort otherwise since we'll have to ask you to do it again anyway if we don't see it first time around.
The ident, as others said, also doesn't confirm your altitude readout is correct (we need you to tell us so we can cross check). Nor does it confirm your callsign is showing correctly on the radar, we still have to physically look at the correlation on the radar display to make sure what we see is who you say you are. It also doesn't confirm what altitude you are climbing to, especially important if flying a SID with a stepped profile, nor does it confirm that you are flying the correct SID.
So we need that information on your initial call. All these checks and balances might be a pain but they are there for a simple reason. Namely to ensure that opportunity is provided for the 'system' to detect and correct any errors which might lead to losses of separation .... or worse.
Doing it by rote is the best way, as per the AIP or RTF Manual. It should be second nature for commercial pilots after a short while, especially short haul guys who get lots and lots of rotations to practice it ;)
Callsign
Passing level
Cleared level (or initial level climbing to on a 'stepped' SID)
SID or heading assigned
Once we have that out of the way, and our ticks in the right boxes showing you are following the expected clearance, we can then follow up by identifying you and issuing further instructions :ok:.
If there is an issue with workload early in the departure, then as a pilot you can probably delay slightly in making that first call, maybe until you are cleaned up a little and noise abatement thrust settings have been made. The downside then is that you might not get a more direct route or better speed and/or climb profile as early as you might wish. Especially if the guy behind you gets his call in before you have and you have to wait a minute or two whilst he goes through the info exchange and ident process with us ;)
BDiONU
4th Jul 2006, 06:02
Back at West Drayton we used to get departure TV, I'm not sure whether TC still have it.
Swanwick does not have this system which could help to reduce late splits on some sectors, although I do believe it has been recommended to the 4th floor that we get it asap.
TC still has it and will have it on the move dahn souff. The view on it for the AC operation is that you've not had it since Swanwick opened and moved more traffic than you ever did at West Drayton so why do you need it now?
That said there have been a couple of sticky situations where it would have helped so it was looked at again, given that a feed would be possible when TC come down. However AC uses SIS and TC will be using nSIS and never the twain shall meet, they're incompatible. So the only real options are an extra monitor on the LAS desk or a feed into TOMS.
BD
HEATHROW DIRECTOR
4th Jul 2006, 06:46
<<If there is an issue with workload early in the departure, then as a pilot you can probably delay slightly in making that first call, maybe until you are cleaned up a little and noise abatement thrust settings have been made.>>
Not sure where Pprune Radar works but I'm sitting here wondering what effect of this remark had on the London TMA guys!! When I worked at Heathrow Tower, if they weren't talking to traffic within about 30 seconds of it getting airborne the phone would start going.....
Bearcat
4th Jul 2006, 07:29
Thanks a million for the replys guys.....totally explained and very much appreciated.
Not sure where Pprune Radar works but I'm sitting here wondering what effect of this remark had on the London TMA guys!! When I worked at Heathrow Tower, if they weren't talking to traffic within about 30 seconds of it getting airborne the phone would start going.....
If an aircraft can't be taken off the SID/NPR until passing say 4000', is it really essential that the TMA controller is talking to an aircraft until approaching that point? He can't do anything tactically with it, other than issue continued climb, and of course identify it etc.
Standing by to be shot at..... :eek:
30W
PPRuNe Radar
4th Jul 2006, 10:40
Can't be all that busy if they have time to phone every time someone hasn't checked in at departure +30 seconds ;) :p
Cleaning up and setting climb thrust will probably be complete within a minute of departure (1000' to 1500' rings a bell, must dust off the Boeing FMC Manual :cool:) so there shouldn't be any panic. The Tower will have given the TMA everything nice and separated anyway, won't they ?? :}
Remember now that most flight decks don't have Flight Engineers so it's a bit of a one armed paper hanger job for the pilots during the first stages of flight :ok: .... as I'm sure 30W and others can confirm !!
anotherthing
5th Jul 2006, 07:53
what we do not want though is a pilot checking in with all the right stuff, and squawking ident automatically thinking he is helping us..
the squwak ident has to be in response to our request to go by the letter of the law for ID purposes