Helicopter drops big flag over London [Archive]

M!KE

19th Jun 2006, 12:00

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/englandflag800.jpg

Hi folks, I was just wondering if there were any restrictions on the size of banners and flags that helicopters were allowed to tow.
The one pictured was circling around the Midlands during the England game.
The registration of the aircraft was G-OHMS.

M!KE

topgas

30th Jun 2006, 14:10

Just seen a smallish helicpter with an enormous England flag flying over Finchley/Southgate area of North London. Fantastic sight and sentiment, but are they allowed to do that? Presumably if the helo had a problem it would ditch the flag, which together with its large stabilising weight at the bottom of the leading edge, would land on whoever was below - wouldn't fancy that dropping on me!

Stoic

30th Jun 2006, 17:10

On 5 June they dropped it by mistake over Bisham Woods near Marlow. I presume that, if they were required to, they reported the disaster to the CAA. I took several pictures of the flag fluttering to earth but don't seem to be able to paste any of them into this post. Any one know how to?

The flag is huge - 25,000 sq ft according to the Cabair guys who were looking for it. It landed in the woods just east of the A404 dual carriageway. It could have caused mayhem had it landed on the road.

According to the Cabair guys, there had been a problem with the ballast release mechanism. There apparently is dry sand all along the lower edge of the flag. The ballast must weigh quite a lot but, provided it is dispersed as individual grains of sand, it would not be a problem

I hate to be a killjoy, but I suspect that, even if there is not an issue with the ballast, it could have been lethal if that huge area of cloth had landed on traffic or something that needed clear visibility or was susceptible to getting tangled up.

Stoic

30th Jun 2006, 19:01

Here is a picture of the flag after it was jettisoned.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/105ce03eac.jpg

G-CPTN

1st Jul 2006, 00:45

A pilot whose helicopter dropped heavy equipment onto a ski lift in Austria last year, killing nine Germans, said he was sorry for what happened but maintained his innocence during his trial Thursday, a news agency reported.
But the agency reported that he denied that he may have pushed a wrong button by mistake, allowing a mechanical hook beneath the helicopter to release a tub weighing nearly 700 kilograms (more than 1,500-pounds) used to transport concrete.
He has in the past argued that a technical problem caused the aircraft to drop the heavy equipment.
http://news.lawinfo.com/story/2_ds_110984.cfm

BOAC

1st Jul 2006, 11:07

Athough this is now 'old news' (5 June) I consider it merits coming back onto R&N. I have trimmed out the usual 'jousting' from all the other threads and combined them here. I suspect it was moved before the 'time-expired' 5 June event was posted, and it was a fine line between JB and 'Spectators' Balcony' then, and JB won.

Please note that rather than whinge on a thread about where a thread is placed, there is a 'report to a moderator' function - small red exclamation mark bottom left, and the 'contact us' email function. None of us have the time to wander around every forum looking for bits here and there.

The senior mods may well decide to move this again, but here is the exposure you seek for the time being.

Norman Stanley Fletcher

1st Jul 2006, 11:28

This is a non-story. The flag dropped in the middle of nowhere, no one was injured and basically nothing happened.

As a slight aside, every other nation in the world would think it was great to see such support for their country - for reasons best known to themselves the English are embarrassed by passion for their country. I think it is great that this flag is being paraded around - I am Scottish by the way! All the whiners just need to get out more - may I suggest a trip to the pub later today to cheer on your country in the Quarter Final of the World Cup against Portugal?

Stoic

1st Jul 2006, 11:36

BOAC, Thanks for the info about how to whinge to a moderator. I shall try to do better next time.

I took the photos of the News of the World flag incident on 5 June but did not realise until yesterday when I saw the helicopter with big flag thread that flying these huge flags from helicopters had become commonplace.

If it is correct that they are being extensively flown over major built up areas, it seems to me that there is an important issue and that some sort of control is needed.

On 5 June, the ballast system on the News of the World flag had apparently malfunctioned causing the flag to lose its shape. The helicopter appeared to labour (but this is a totally un-informed observation) for a couple of minutes before the decision was taken to jettison.

Was there any risk to the helicopter caused by the failure? If not, why did they not just fly up to nearby Booker?

There has to have been a risk to people on the ground, especially if the flag had landed on the A404.

Incidentally, this flag was nothing like a conventional banner, as I have seen all over the World. Are they properly regulated? Was an MOR required for the 5 June incident?

Informed comments welcome.

Stoic

Low Flier

1st Jul 2006, 14:19

I think the jettisoning raises a very serious safety issue.

When planning any underslung load (civil) in the UK, you always have to think very carefully before going anywhere where a jettison would endanger the public. That's why the CAA normally takes a dim view of any AOC holder planning to fly an underslung cargo over a main public road.

A danger is a hazard multiplied by a risk. The risk that such a flag as shown in the photo might have to be jettisoned suddenly may be small, but the hazard it might pose to road traffic could be enormous. That's what makes it dangerous. Doing something which is dangerous is not clever, even if it is lucrative.

Consider the probable consequences of that thing fluttering down onto the cab of a coach doing 70mph on a busy motorway. Are the fatal consequences a predictable event? I think they are. Are they avoidable? I think so.

I think the CAA should reconsider the wisdom of continuing to support this risky and unnecessary form of advertising.

tiggerific_69

1st Jul 2006, 15:21

i did a jumpseat ride into london city yesterday and saw something towing a rather large flag along.the captain queried it but we turned onto final approach before we got any closer

Golf Charlie Charlie

1st Jul 2006, 15:29

WHBM

1st Jul 2006, 20:20

We discussed this operation at length here last year http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205578
(start at post 11) when it started up. Most (as above in this post) were concerned about dropping the flag, while those involved said it was not going to happen.

Well now it has. And comments now like

The flag dropped in the middle of nowhere, no one was injured are just unprofessional in aviation terms. Presumably there will be an AAIB report.

Stoic

2nd Jul 2006, 07:19

Having now seen various photographs of the huge advertising banners and the helicopters flying them, it seems to be clear that the banners can be described as being "suspended from the helicopters".

If that is accepted, these outfits are already prohibited by article 65(5) from overflying "a congested area of a city, town or settlement" . It seems to me, therefore, that the flag operators may well have been in mutiple breach of this article recently, depending on what is the interpretation of the word "congested". What far example is a "congested settlement"?

As has been pointed out, if one of these large beasts landed on a motorway, it could certainly endanger the traffic and thus "any person or property". The operators may, therefore, also already be in breach of article 74 of the ANO.

Should these outfits be allowed to overfly congested roads? Personally, having witnessed a jettison, I think not.

Any legal opinion out there? But this seems like one for the CAA and the operators' AOCs (if that is still the way things are run in the UK).

Stoic

chevvron

2nd Jul 2006, 08:21

You go to Cancun; they've got a Rotax engined float equipped microlight towing banners there! I bet it can do 30 kts.

Speed of Sound

2nd Jul 2006, 09:33

I think it is great that this flag is being paraded around - I am Scottish by the way!

Have you ever watched Trainspotting?

SoS

fmgc

2nd Jul 2006, 10:04

NSF,

As this is an aviation forum then I would suggest that this is not a non-story, as it holds ineterest for many.

The fact that nobody was hurt is not the issue, it is the fact that it could have caused serius problems is the issue.

Nobody was injured in the recent TNT 737 incident at BHX but would you suggest that it is a non-story?

robschopper

2nd Jul 2006, 10:38

Identical aircraft and flag was flying over Birmingham during yesterday's match. I thought at the time that jettisoning the flag in an emergency would be a problem. The chances of the flag landing anywhere other than in a built up area would have been at least a hundred to one.

I don't know what the total weight of this flag, counter weight, and towing line is, but if the helicopter had an equivilent underslung hopper of concrete flying around the city, everyone would be up in arms.

Public safety ... or supporting overpaid blokes kicking a bag of wiind around a field. I know which i'd rather see!

Agaricus bisporus

2nd Jul 2006, 11:35

Captain Airclues

2nd Jul 2006, 13:35

I don't believe that patriotism should be an excuse to ignore safety. Shortly before the flag was dropped on 5/6 it had flown over several large towns (as well as my house). The A404 was very busy at the time, and the flag landed very close to the road. Had it landed on a car travelling at 70mph then the consequences could have been fatal.
Was an MOR filed, and if so does anyone know if the details are available?

Airclues

Low Flier

2nd Jul 2006, 14:44

Stoic, an interesting point about definition of "congested". In short, there isn't one, or at least the CAA consistently refuses to define it and it is certainly defined nowhere else. Thus you can, in the UK, be prosecuted for breaking a definition that you cannot know as it does not exist!

CAP393, the Air Navigation Order, clearly defines "congested":
‘Congested area’ in relation to a city, town or settlement, means any area which is substantially used for residential, industrial, commercial or recreational purposes;

That's the law and it's quite clear that urban areas which are shown in yellow on a half-mill, especially yellow polygons, are comprised of congested areas. It's also clear that public roads which are "substantially used" by the public fall into that category too.

I still haven't seen any post on this thread address the vital issue of jettisoning such an enormous flag onto a road or railway. It's not the mass or solidity of the suspended load which is the issue. The issue is what would happen if such a huge piece of material were to be dropped onto moving vehicles on a public road.

What are the probable consequences of such a piece of material being dumped onto the windscreen of a moving vehicle? Injury? Death? Multiple deaths? If so, are such deaths foreseeable? If they are foreseeable, are they avoidable?

How is the carriage of suspended loads by helicopters over congested areas compatible with preventing those predictable deaths?

Stoic

2nd Jul 2006, 21:30

Thank you for the input, especially the definition of 'congested areas' which I have now read myself in CAP 393. I am not too clear about the arterial road/motorway/railway fitting into the congested area definition, but it seems to me that the flag which I saw jettisoned had definitely overflown Marlow and Bisham, as defined on my half mill map, shortly before the jettison and the law (and common sense) says that it should not have done.

It seems to me that the operators should not be doing this. The town overflying is almost certainly covered by the existing law. Common sense says that overflying roads, motorways and railways with these rigs should also be prohibited - perhaps this activity falls into article 74 - the prohibiton on endangering any person or property. If it does not, the law should be amended to include a prohibition on overflying roads, motorways and railways. Flags of the sizes that are now being used could be lethal if they landed on any vehicle travelling at any speed - in my opinion.

The incident on 5 June was seen by many people on the ground and it was reported in the local press. One for proper supervision by the CAA I would suggest.

Regards

Stoic

BOAC

2nd Jul 2006, 22:27

Sorry to but in, but I am very keen that this (IMO) important issue is debated here, and I am exercising strict 'editorial' control over non-relevant posts.

Please bear this in mind before posting. There is a thread (the original (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232742)) on JB where non-'relevant' banter can take place.

surely not

3rd Jul 2006, 00:14

Oh for goodness sake guys.......................... flying is on occassion dangerous, are you suggesting a Jumbo shouldn't fly over London in case it crashes!!:mad: :mad:

EDIT: Not really relevant to this thread but I have left it in to give continuity to the responses below. The rest of the post contributed nothing so has gone. There is a similar thrread running on JB where anyone is welcome to make such posts. I am TRYING to keep what I consider to be an important topic 'clean'!

anartificialhorizon

3rd Jul 2006, 04:09

spot on Surely Not.....

Aviation by it's very nature is inherently risky, we just try to minimise the risks......

If flag flying / banner towing is deemed too risky because of a thousand mights and might nots then should we ban helicopter sight seeing flights, gliding , single engine flights , balloon flights etc etc etc..............

Minimise the risks as much as practicable but you cannot get rid of them all.....there will always be the might happen factor...........

If we let the Nanny State dictate, then we will live in a world full of caution / do not/ beware signs with supposedly "wiser" souls telling us how to go about our lives...... What a dull place that would be !

Anyway no more England flags to look forward to for a least 2 years .....:bored:

Low Flier

3rd Jul 2006, 05:51

surely not and anartificialhorizon appear to be arguing that we should abolish Rule 65 (5) which says:A helicopter shall not fly at any height over a congested area of a city, town or settlement at any time when any article, person or animal is suspended from the helicopter.
Neither of the immediately preceeding two posts show any comprehension of the reason for that safety law.

The reason why we are prohibited from carrying an underslung load over a public road is that we may have to unexpectedly jettison the load. The consequences of such a jettison onto the traffic are likely to be endangerment of human life. That's the reason for the prohibition and that's the reason why the CAA should not wait to be told by the AAIB after the predictable fatal accident that jettisoning these flags onto moving vehicles is likely to cause serious injuries and/or deaths.

Low Flier

3rd Jul 2006, 06:06

The 'serious' part of this thread is back on R&N if anyone wishes to add serious comment to it.

True? or not true?

It appears to have been tucked away out of sight in the wholly inappropriate "spotters" corner.

This is not a 'planespotting' issue at all. It's a serious safety issue.

If we are to abolish Rule 65 (5), as appears to be the proposition, then it is something whiuch ought to be allowed to be discussed seriously, not merely sneered at and thrown away into "Spotters corner" in denial of the importance public safety issues.

EDIT: OK OK! The big boss decided this is where it should be. His train set, as they say. If you feel strongly about this please use the contacts listed in post #6 which has been only partly quoted here by LF.

Barndweller

3rd Jul 2006, 08:42

Those who compare sightseeing and other kinds of flight over cities with carrying underslung loads over cities miss one most important fact. If you suffer a technical problem in a helicopter whilst carrying out a sightseeing flight then you probably / should / must have a pretty good opportunity to select your forced landing site or to fly away (see rule 5). Once that load departs the aircraft (intentionaly or otherwise) it is not going to select where it lands. I've spent enough time working in and underneath helicopters lifting loads to know that there are times when the hook has a mind of its own (i have the scars to prove it).
I'm all for a sensible attitude to what helicopters are allowed to do over congested areas. This strikes me as going a bit far. In terms of whether or not they are breaking the law - this is so obviously in contravention of law that i assume the operator is operating under an exemption from the CAA.

Captain Airclues

3rd Jul 2006, 11:14

anartificialhorizon

Just to be clear about this, are you saying that it's OK to break the law so long as the helicopter is carrying an England flag, or do you believe that any form of advertising banner should be allowed to be carried over congested areas?

Airclues

dc8driver@night

8th Jul 2006, 01:33

What's the position in the US ? Yesterday there was what looked like a Cessna 140 at about 800-1000 feet dragging a huge banner for a TV programme doing a couple of circuits of Manhattan. It seemed to be struggling hard against the wind with a loud engine noise and doing no more than about 50 knots. I did wonder about the flag if it dropped onto a bridge or a freeway....... They also don't seem to have a single engine glide-clear rule over there !

Charlie: Actually, in the US, they are regulated. You must get a waiver to tow a banner each time you plan to do it. You also end up taking responsibility for any damage, which is why any commercial operator is required to have insurance. Check out page 4-1 of this link from the FAA. http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/media/faa-fs.pdf Safety is a major concern.

Deadside

17th Sep 2006, 15:05

It appears that the same thing has happened today in Manchester ! not that you heard it from me ....:=

Brewster Buffalo

17th Sep 2006, 19:34

The flag - advertising Quantas cheap flights - was flown over Old Trafford during the MUFC/Arsenal game. The helicopter sounded a bit laboured. When last seen it was heading North still with the flag attached.

The airspace over Old Trafford can get pretty crowded on match days with a small blimp with a camera and the police helicopter and plane...

eastern wiseguy

17th Sep 2006, 22:14

airspace over Old Trafford can get pretty crowded

All those ego's .........:E

BrandingByAir

12th May 2010, 23:59

Dear all

I am the inventor of the banner system that is now in operations by HOBS This was sold off some years ago now.

It is impossible for the ballast bag to just open,Clearly not rigged correctly. I have done thousands of hours flying globally with banners. They are as safe as any operation as long as you do it correctly.

There is also the point that the banner does not need to be jettisoned if the ballast bag does open....for what ever reason, the pilot stops,evaluates the situation and can fly the banner without ballast to a safe area and land it. There is no need to have a fully operational helicopter jettison a banner, It is only done if the machine has serious mechanical failure. This needs investigation of the operators as I trained them 4 years ago on the correct procedure in just such a case, seems they need refreaher training on the correct way to rig and fly the banners. The operations manager of HOBS should be doing refresher traing of crews and pilots and not just assumming they are doing the right thing. I have offered to re train the operations company and the HOBS operations manager Mr Sporing. I do not expect my phone to ring anytime soon....or at all really as he knows everything.

Safe flying all

SPH