Veterans' Day

[tablet_eraser]

Is it:

a. This Government's recognition of the valuable contribution made to our great Nation by those men and women who, through its history, have been willing to put their lives on the line to defend Britain and her overseas interests, as well as being instrumental in defeating such tyranny as we saw in both World Wars; or,

b. A frantic and undignified attempt by an aloof government to show that, in spite of all of the indications to the contrary (falling defence spending (as opposed to budget), cutting thousands of personnel, decimating the Royal Navy's surface fleet, ditching perfectly capable regiments, imposing the hated and immoral PAYD on us (captive audience for profit, anyone?), failing to supply us with adequate kit, failing to protect personnel against largely unfounded allegations of war crimes, playing petty politics with defence spending and - worst of all - imposing Buff on us), it actually gives a s**t about the Armed Forces?

Whatever, I hope it does educate people about those who have gone before us. As ever, I salute those who have risked everything for their country.... but I think many of them were perfectly satisfied with Remembrance Sunday.

[An Teallach]

Not sure if I would agree wholeheartedly with B, but it certainly isn't A.

Might I venture a C?

c. A cynical attempt by NuLabour politicians (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=936322006) held in extremely low public esteem to acquire some of the sheen off the public's respect for the Armed Forces while they troop around the country handing out silly little 'Blue Peter' type veterans badges.

"Badgees? ... Badgees? ... We don't want your fecking badgees!"

[FantomZorbin]

Instead of giving politicians yet another opportunity to cavort in front of the media, why won't the Government sort out the appalling incompetance that allows "An 88-year-old veteran of the Burma campaign ... living in penury because Whitehall bureaucrats are refusing to pay him full £86,000 recompense after a pension error." see Daily Telegraph 26/6/06
That would do for starters ... :*

[welshwizard]

On inaugural Veterans Day lets have a pardon for all those wrongly executed by firing squad for supposed desertion to duty on the battlefield. It is the least we can do for them and their families.

[SASless]

How about this concept....

Next time you see and old geezer wearing his medals at an airshow, ceremony, parade, or funeral...don't just walk on by. Stop, offer your hand, a salute (hand and/or verbal) and a real heart felt "thank you".

Take a minute or two and ask him about "his" service and show some geniune interest in his well being.

If it catches on.....it might be you standing there on your cane one day and think how you would appreciate such a gesture.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Sas,

Good idea, except for the politicians. That would require the New Labour types to display a characteristic which appears to have been brainwashed out of politicians since 97 - RESPECT.

Both for the old who went all over the world and did their duty so these touchy feely lefties could exercise their freedom and for the forces who continue to do so in dangerous theatres under increasingly under funded, under manned and under supported conditions. In my 15 years in the mob I never once heard or saw any serviceman/woman show anything but the utmost respect for veterans. I was (and am still) proud.

Rant over. I'm off down the pub.

NEO

[oik]

SASless, you are right. I do that, and it is a very satisfying and correct thing to do.

[Rich Lee]

Next time you see and old geezer wearing his medals at an airshow, ceremony, parade, or funeral...don't just walk on by. Stop, offer your hand, a salute (hand and/or verbal) and a real heart felt "thank you".
Good advice SASless. I have heard some very interesting stories from the 'old geezers'. One of the most fascinating was from a WWII pilot whose assignment was to attack Japanese surface vessels with torpedos that did not work. His stories of the hail of fire, seeing fellow pilots shot down before him, making the same torpedo run as they, watching a hit and seeing no explosion; caused the hair to rise on my neck. Fascinating stuff.

[Pontius Navigator]

decimating the Royal Navy's surface fleet,

counted the sub-surface fleet recently? They've been decimated too.

[Pontius Navigator]

How about this concept....
Next time you see and old geezer wearing his medals at an airshow, ceremony, parade, or funeral...don't just walk on by. Stop, offer your hand, a salute (hand and/or verbal) and a real heart felt "thank you".
Take a minute or two and ask him about "his" service and show some geniune interest in his well being.

Guernsey airport, ex-matelot (sunk and survived), re-mustered into Parachute Regiment in time for Arnhem (survived naturally).

Ditto, son-in-law, ex-RAF regt field sqn.

They get talking, once he realised the other was a parachutist it was into aeroconicals, pack weights, jumps etc. Both almost missed their flights.

[Pontius Navigator]

I was talking to a rear gunner, shot down after the Leipzig raid in '45. He and his crew, except the skipper, landed safely in friendly lines although they did not know that.

They all landed in a wood and, except for the tail gunner, met up and peered out of the wood to see a house with lights on just down the road. They crept up and peered through the window. Inside was a bunch of soldiers playing cards. They guessed they were Americans.

One of them opened the door that led straight in to the room "Anyone got a fag?" he asked (when fags were cigarettes). He reckoned it would be a good password.

The table went up, the cards went everywhere, some fell over backwards, others collided as they dived for their rifles.

There is lots more!

[LOTA]

Great idea SASless.

I spent a couple of days, on duty (not in uniform) at the VE/VJ-Day centre in St James' Park last summer.

I singled out the RAF veterans to talk to; fascinating stuff: one of the first members of the newly-formed RAF Regiment; a Spitfire pilot shot down on his birthday over Italy and crash landing in a ploughed field; loads of ex-WAAFs with shedloads of spirit and a million laughs; best of all: the old Bomber Command boys - true, unsung heroes.

One of these great old fellas said he had flown 13 missions over Berlin. "Adolf sent me a message after that; don't come over here again, mate!” Lovely stuff...and truly rewarding in these understandably cynical times.

[SASless]

Ran into an old fellow quite by accident....fortunately only physical damage to the vehicles. He was wearing a rather gaudy Hawaiian shirt, which on the East Coast is a bit unusual. While waiting for the Gestapo to arrive, we struck up a conversation during which I mentioned his mode of attire. He told me that he had just returned from a Pearl Harbor veterans reunion. When he mentioned he had been a Marine aboard the USS Arizona....you can imagine the emotion that brought up knowing how few survived the sinking of that ship.

[West Coast]

SAS
A great idea. I do it when I see folks in the airport wearing anything that singles them out as a vet.
Rich
I heard a similar story from passenger waiting for a flight. He had been a flier in the Pacific. He had been shot down, as was a Japanese flier. They exchanged gun fire after both were in the water. The Japanese fellow had actually put a hole in his raft. He fired till out of rounds, he suspects the other guy did too.

[Pontius Navigator]

What makes me sad, a few years after the war, we sprogs never asked, and our instructors never said, what they had done in the war.

Our Int O was shot down on the first raid after the dams raid. I checked the Bomber Command loss diaries and sure enough he was there. His story was that they were assured that their would be no flak in the Ruhr.

What he did not relate was how they were shot down or how he was captured and subsequently released.

Ditto all our Polish pilots, we never found out how they had come to join the RAF.

It is only in retirement that the vets are now talking, anxious that the story is not forgotten. I read almost all the books that were published in the 50s and many I remember intimately.

[greycoat]

IIRC it was a couple of decades ago when going through reselection at Biggin Hill that one Sunday night, returning to the Mess I happened upon a gentleman of mature stature who would tell a tale of flying in Burma after WWII but singularly failed to mention anything earlier and to my shame it was only after he left the bar that the steward pointed out that aforementioned gentleman had his picture on the wall and identified him as Wg Cdr Bob Stanford-Tuck. A more modest or engaging gentleman you would not meet. Do we really need an occasion for politicians to hijack to remember such gentlemen?

[ShyTorque]

They are just a little too late for my favourite uncle.

We had his funeral service yesterday. His medals, including his Burma Star, were on his coffin. He was 90 years old. He left the RAF from India. They were not allowed home for over 6 months after WW2 ended (an interesting part of the RAF's history). His transport home was a converted Mitchell bomber, which crashed in a field in France after suffering a double engine failure

RIP Sgt W. Shaw.

[Il Duce]

This government, show respect for the British Armed Forces? I don't think so! Call me cynical but I don't feel that the vast majority of the British public give a stuff either. Whilst serving in Belize I nipped up to the USA for a long weekend and routed through Houston (this was during Gulf War1). I was in civvies but carrying my RAF holdall and was waiting in the queue at immigration when I was approached by a security guard who asked, "Pardon me, Sir. Are you in the Armed Forces?" When I said yes he took my bag from me and said, "Please follow me, Sir." We promptly whizzed through immigration, passport control and customs ahead of everyone else. He thanked me and "my fellow British brothers in arms" for all we were doing in the Gulf (no matter that I was serving in the Gulf of Mexico) and wished me a pleasant stay in the USA. The public attitude "over there" to the Armed Forces is a million miles from that displayed here. I'm not asking for special treatment - maybe a little appreciation wouldn't go amiss now and again.

[Slartibardfarst]

Il Duce,

A point well made. The good ol' US of A do make a geat deal of their Vets, (some are even coming to terms with the Vietnam guys too!!) My only concern with this move by His Tonyness, is that this is just another nail in the coffin of "being British". Can't we come up with some other way of celbrating all that have committed themselves to the defense of this, once proud, nation?

Possibly, and I know this is a far fetched notion, we could have a National Day on, or around, 11/11 every year?

I don't know, Veterans Day, presidential style elections, Blair Force One, where do we stop. One, two, three "Oh say can you see, da dada da da da.............:{

[Hirsutesme]

So what would be a meaningful alternative? I dont care where the idea has "originated" from. We all know royalty, politicians and the media will hijack anything, but nonetheless, I support an initiative which a) honours those who richly deserve it and b)educates further generations

[Bluntend]

I was lucky enough to be present at the most recent Pathfinder Dinner at RAF Wyton, and afterwards had the opportunity to talk with and listen to some of the men who flew those early pathfinder missions. Humbling does not come close. I just find it such a shame that when we do honour our veterans it is done behind closed doors and away from the public.

[vecvechookattack]

Does anyone know of a link to that US military video which showed a couple of US military guys walking through an airport and the entire concourse stopping and applauding.?


Imagine that at Gatport airwick ?

[Melchett01]

Vec, know exactly which one you mean and IIRC, I think it was done by Budweiser or one of the American beers. Contrast that to walking through the terminal at BZN, disgruntled movers hurrumphing because you have the audacity to clutter up their airport and the endless wait because some civi in MT couldn't be bothered to sort out your pick up because it was a bit early in the morning.

But talking of veterans, I cannot recommed strongly enough a book that Johnnie Johnson and Laddie Lucas wrote together in the mid-90s called Winged Victory - A Last Look Back: Personal Reflections of Two Royal Air Force Leaders.

It has it all, and the selfless attitude that just oozes through the paper really does make you think that these 2 fine gentlemen are probably turning in their grave at some of the things that happen now. For a fiver off Amazon, it's an absolute bargain

[SASless]

Read this article by an officer who escorted a young Marine killed in action to his home in Wyoming. It will give you an idea what we think of our young folks that are lost in combat.

http://weblog.theviewfromthecore.com/2004_05/day_31.html

[Reach]

Whenever I have retirees on board flying Space A I always invite them up to the flight deck. I've been rewarded by hearing some amazing stories.

[Raincheck]

Read this article by an officer who escorted a young Marine killed in action to his home in Wyoming. It will give you an idea what we think of our young folks that are lost in combat.

http://weblog.theviewfromthecore.com/2004_05/day_31.html

What an amazing read, if only we could do the same.

[Blacksheep]

One day, when I was on late shift at Northolt, I bumped into Flt Lt Joe Kmiecik (http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/devons/older.htm) who was locking up the 207 Sqn office for the day. "Its a lovely evening" I said. "Yes, its been a lovely day altogether." said Joe. Then he pointed out the two Luftwaffe transports parked over on south side, proudly displaying their black and white crosses. "Look at that." he said sadly, "There were plenty more who can't appreciate a lovely evening. Tell me, what the f*ck was it all about, eh?"

He'd flown against the Luftwaffe from the same airfield 33 years earlier. He happened to be the last Polish fighter pilot still standing in his uniform and he wasn't just talking about the Poles.

Politicians are the curse of humanity. A pox on them all.

[mutleyfour]

I think that Joe Public is too tied up with the state of the nation to allow any time for HM Forces either past or present. Veterans day hardly made an impact on the country did it, after all the majority of UK based personnel were all at work as normal when they could have been helping make the day more spectacular.

As for SASless words, I couldnt agree more! I occasionally pop into the local town during the working day to source leaving presents for personnel in my unit and the only people whom speak to me are those that are of an age to remember the war. We often have good chats, have a little flirt with the old girls and it makes you feel united for that small token of time.

[snapper41]

I was on a tube platform not long ago, trying to get to MB for a meeting. Tube was delayed, and this old bloke came up to me and asked if I knew what the hold-up was. I noticed his tie - AAC wings, so asked him when he was 'in'; turned out he was a glider pilot. He'd been into Normandy on D+1, then done Arnhem, where he was captured. Later did the 'long march', the forced movement of POWs from Poland to Germany in January '45. We both missed the next train, but hey - chances to chat to someone like that are getting fewer. Somehow my own war stories just aren't the same...

[airborne_artist]

There was an unrelated picture of the PoW in yesterday's Telegraph Business section, as he went to the City on Tuesday. He was wearing his RAF tie.

[cazatou]

Blacksheep,

I was present in the Officers Mess Bar in 1978 when Joe walked in announced that the drinks were on him - something which produced a stunned silence in the room.

When asked what the occasion was he replied "Today is the 37th anniversary of my being sentenced to death by the Russians."

Joe had been put in a Russian Concentration Camp for trying to escape from Russian occupied Poland to join Free Polish Forces in the fight against Germany. Ironically, it was the German invasion of Russia which enabled Joe to escape from the camp and he walked several thousand miles across Russia to Mermansk where he joined the British Forces. He always maintained that he joined the Army but got on the wrong lorry and became a Fighter Pilot.

[teeteringhead]

Good letter in the Torygraph today which sums it all up for me:

29 June 2006

The real veterans' day

Sir - I am an old soldier - Second World War - and proud of it. I have no wish to be specially recognised at the behest of deceitful, self-seeking politicians acting for their own ends.

We "veterans" have our own day of remembrance every November, and I see no reason to support an unnecessary and inevitably small-scale imitation of such a solemn national occasion.

Old soldiers would much prefer politicians to show real regard for the Armed Forces by ensuring that those who are currently serving are properly equipped and maintained.

E. J. Turner, Eastbourne, E Sussex

[airborne_artist]

Good letter in the Torygraph today which sums it all up for me:

Very hard to top that letter.

[*Zwitter*]

How about this concept....
Next time you see and old geezer wearing his medals at an airshow, ceremony, parade, or funeral...don't just walk on by. Stop, offer your hand, a salute (hand and/or verbal) and a real heart felt "thank you".
Take a minute or two and ask him about "his" service and show some geniune interest in his well being.
If it catches on.....it might be you standing there on your cane one day and think how you would appreciate such a gesture.


Did that at Southend this year - I was chatting to an old Dakota pilot, rattling a tin for the RAFBF, who (after a while) turned out to be David Lord VC's wingman from the Arnhem mission. I make a point of talking to these chaps as you can only get the story from the horses mouth for a finite time. I always thank them - they always brush it off with something like "we were young, we just did what we had to do"

[BattlerBritain]

I'm with SASless - I think we need to have more contact with the veterans and not just one day a year.

I'm lucky to live in a little "City" in Somerset where we have our own Veteran of World War 1 - 108 year old Harry Patch.

The local schools have been making a real effort to bring small groups of kids round to see him on regular visits. The kids get to actually meet a real live hero and Harry gets spoilt rotten :)

The local paper is also keen to take as many pictures of him as poss. He has his picture in there every week, I swear it.

Last week he was on the front cover - wearing his England football shirt!

What a boy - 108 and still having a larf!!

[Mike Read]

For the last fifteen years I have been a SSAFA caseworker. Some three years ago I had occasion to visit a WW2 ex RAFVR Flt Lt. The talk got around to his service flying Lancs. I asked how many tours he had done and it turned out to be two and a half. He showed his logbook in which was a copy of his immediate award of a DFC with the chain of command's recommendations, finally approved by Bomber Harris. I said "did you go to Berlin?" "Yes, ten times" as his log book indicated. "But I probably went another six or seven as a trainer" which he explained was when a new crew arrived he, and presumably other experienced pilots on the squadron, would fly with them to show them the ropes but as they were not part of the official crew didn't put the mission in their log books. From what he said, he could well have flown the equivalent of another full tour as a passenger. It wasn't only on the Berlin missions.

Unfortunately, he was a very private person and according to his wife, to her knowledge, had never spoken of his wartime experiences. He needed help from RAFBF but refused to let me contact them on his behalf so the case was dropped.

A real honour to meet such a guy..

[trilander]

I have spent a couple of days on security at The Royal Hospital in Chelsea this week. Nice to see the old boys march in the borough with band of Scots Guards the other day to exercise their freedom, and hear some of the history of the hospital.

[BEagle]

Did you see that old boy on TV last night? 108 year old veteran of WW1 - and still as bright as a button. Wonderful chap!

I would imagine he could put wet kids like Bliar and Brown firmly in their place over defence issues!

[A2QFI]

110 years old on 6th June this year Beags. I agree with you though, lucid and proud of what he and his friends and colleagues achieved for us, all this time later!

[HGFC1]

Last Saturday I had the privilege of helping to marshall the 130+ light aircraft who visited Wolverhampton for Project Propellor. Before things got too busy I was able to help one or two of these wonderful old gentlemen as they got out of their aircraft. All were very smartly dressed and looked forward to catching up with old friends and comrades. Their roles during WW2 were varied, one was a former Lancaster pilot who claimed he wasn't quite as agile as he would have liked to be "But then I have two stainless steel knees and two stainless steel hips" he said but he could get out of that Warrior faster than I could have done, others had been based at Halfpenny Green as it was then known, all had memories which I wish I had had the time to hear. Many photos were taken - always including their pilot in them. Their delight at being there was lovely to see and their presence had quite an effect on the young FIs and others. Who cared if they needed to sit on our chairs or asked for a drink? We were just pleased to be able to provide it. The day was a private affair for them but we were all able to enjoy the final event - the flypast of one of the BBMF's Spitfires. This was a small recognition of what they had done for us and, as I said, I felt privileged to have been there.

[Tigs2]

SASless
That makes really moving reading, Thanks. Anyone with 5 mins to spare should read the article at SASless' link in post 24.

[SASless]

If you are able,
save them a place
inside of you
and save one backward glance
when you are leaving
for the places they can
no longer go.
Be not ashamed to say
you loved them,
though you may
or may not have always.
Take what they have left
and what they have taught you
with their dying
and keep it with your own.
And in that time
when men decide and feel safe
to call the war insane,
take one moment to embrace
those gentle heroes
you left behind.


Major Michael Davis O'Donnell (Killed In Action)
1 January 1970
Dak To, Vietnam

[Padhist]

Why a veterans day? We have a rememberance day. That would seem sufficient to me.I suspect as one of your writers has suggested it will allow many of our trusted leaders to strut around, patting old vets on the back.
What a difference the French have in this respect. My French neighbour was a sub mariner in the Free French Navy...His war service counted towards his state pension entitlement enabling him to retire early. As an Ancient Combatant he has had the benefit of a reduced income tax equal to having a dependant relative since his early retirement at the age of 53 he is now 85...Not an inconsideable benefit.
I know of no financial benefits paid to UK forces for just serving. Just meaningless platitudes. And in some cases appalling injustice.

[SASless]

We have three holidays that seem to overlap now...Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and Independence Day. One commemorates the service of individuals in the military, one remembers the loss of some of those soldiers that served, and the other commemorates the birth of our nation won by force of arms by soldiers.

Veterans Day seems to be more of a personal remembrance by Veterans, the entire nation remembers on Memorial Day, and it is picnics and fireworks on Independence Day.

Politicians use all three to curry favor.

It never hurts to have a day dedicated soley to remembering those who have served in defense of freedom and the survival of one's country. Tommy likes to feel the warming rays of kind sunshine now don't he?