UK vs. US (not another question but a comment)

[Tim_CPL]

I posted this in the glou infringement thread, but I wanted to see if I am looking at things through the wrong end of the binoculars, or whether things really have got this bad. Comments welcome...


I am reading this thread with great interest. Although originally from the UK, and did some PPL training there, the vast majority (99%) of my flying has been in the US, and I now understand how spoiled we are here. My (perhaps incorrect) impression of the current state of UK private flying is that you are being regulated out of existence, the costs are astronomical, the CAA/Euro control freaks seem intent on marginalising you and any possibilities of safe flying (like an instrument rating) are fast becoming unattainable. In addition you seem to have very poor access to information, and what little there is has to be paid for via premium rate numbers. This is not a dig at any one person, but at the seemingly poor state of affairs.

My experience here has been just the opposite, the system is setup to help the private pilot just as much as the heavy metal fliers, and information is available freely to encourage safe flying.

Just to rub it in, 'over here' we have a freephone number (1-800-wxbrief) to speak to a specialist briefer who can give you NOTAMS (local, distant, FDC), TFR's, weather, fight planning & filing and a hundred other useful bits of information. In addition there is the excellent NOAA WX site with real time Nexrad WX, AOPA real time flight planner, free access to DUATs at most FBO's and a whole bunch of other things that make it easy to find the information you need. I truly do not believe I could face flying in the UK again.

Not sure how the system could be fixed in the UK, it seems like control has been delegated to a bunch of faceless bureaucrats who are not accountable or elected by the people who pay their wages.

I just wish it was different, but I guess this is the reality of flying the the brave new Eurocontrol zone.

[Whopity]

In the US there are effective lobby groups, in the UK there are none and the industry is complacent. When the CAA has offered things on a plate to the industry about 2% respond.

[High Wing Drifter]

Where are the drivers for such a system in the UK. Surely a big factor in the US is that a large affluent country is tailor made for serious GA flying. Flying a private aeroplane in the US is probably one of the most practical methods of traversing its expansive wildernesses - A to B for a specific reason (business or pleasure related) and not merely a luxary. The UK is tiny by comparison and for the vast majority of trips it will always be easier, quicker and cheaper to drive even with JetA1 powered pistons.

Europe could compare, but most European initiatives seem to be forms of political enterprise and so there seems to be a double whammy of beaurocracy and cost.

[172driver]

it seems like control has been delegated to a bunch of faceless bureaucrats who are not accountable or elected by the people who pay their wages.

Amen.

I think the main problem is the basic difference in philosophy. In Europe everything that's not expressly allowed is VERBOTEN, whereas in the US it's the other way round (although this seems to be changing, alas). However, the situation in the UK seems especially bad, as there is no proper FIS (Flight Following for you). Yes I know there's RIS and RAS, but in reality a lot of these infringements would not happen in continental Europe, as you simply talk to a controller, who alerts you if needed to airspace ahead. And now please don't start saying the UK is sooooo congested. Other places are too, they just got their act together a bit better.

Tin hat now on......

[IO540]

In Europe everything that's not expressly allowed is VERBOTEN, whereas in the US it's the other way round

I think the above must be tongue in cheek, because it isn't correct. Over here, everything not prohibited is permitted. I can fly wearing just pink underpants, for example.

This may be picking just a narrow point but the US 1-800-wx-brief facility would never work in Europe because so many data originators inject stuff into the notam data feed that a briefer doing a route briefing for a pilot would never be able to read it. OK, any half seasoned pilot can weed out the rubbish in seconds (occassionally minutes), but the briefer would never be able to make that decision on the pilot's behalf.

The much wider point is that in the USA the system is funded by the general taxpayer. The amount of money spent on it must be absolutely huge. In turn this stimulates the economy, but in Europe the way everything is going is that "the user must pay".

I think the European flight planning situation is for most part OK. You just need a laptop with GPRS internet connectivity. You can get all the weather data you will ever want and a lot more than anybody (short of a professional forecaster) will understand, straight off the internet. (I tried this in the USA when doing my IR and the examiner was well miffed; he could not understand all those "silly graphs" and got me to call wx-brief :) ). You can get notams likewise. Speaking to some American IFR pilots, it sounds like a lot of them do the same and don't use wx-brief either. You can also file flight plans totally via the internet, www.homebriefing.com. Personally I prefer graphical data to a phone briefing telling me "a warm front is in N Texas and is moving south..." - without a picture this means little to me.

The other thread about infringements is IMHO about pilots not being generally trained to use these resources, which is an altogether different matter.

The things which IMHO are seriously better in the USA are the free charts and approach plates. Here, if you want to fly around Europe you have to spend a fortune with Jeppesen. This is unforgivable and could easily be rectified.

I better not say too much on the USA because every time I do a particular individual jumps on me and takes the p*ss out of my IR still having allegedly wet ink on it :)

[fly_sd]

The much wider point is that in the USA the system is funded by the general taxpayer.

I believe the aviation system here is funded by the taxes levied on aviation fuel sales - as far as I'm aware I don't think the average tax payers taxes go into the aviation system.

I tried this in the USA when doing my IR and the examiner was well miffed; he could not understand all those "silly graphs" and got me to call wx-brief Don't understand that as I use the net all the time to download weather graphics and get briefings rather than using the phone - probably some people still want to do it the "traditional" way. I personally prefer the net based briefings over the phone ones

[englishal]

800WXBrief / DUATS is the same as AIS essentially. If you don't call, and you bust airspace or the president is in town, you have no defence. It is normally drummed into a student pilot from day 1 that you ALWAYS call 800WXbrief before ANY flight, whether it is cross country or simply out to the practice area.

One difference between the US and UK experience is ATC CAS clearances and entry into TFRs, which makes pre-flight planning easier. For example, many TFR's disappear if you are with ATC and sqwarking a descrete code. You are automatically cleared into C and below airspace when talking to ATC. They may vector you, or if you're a numpty drop you and leave you on your own.

I know it is tax payer funded in the US, but I would be prepared to pay good money for the same level of service in UK airspace.

[IO540]

I would be prepared to pay good money for the same level of service in UK airspace.

That, englishal, will be your downfall :O

You know about the old joke: how do you tell when an airliner full of Brits has landed? The engines stop but the whining carries on.

Most UK pilots want something for nothing.

Most stuff is already free. Weather, notams (including the excellent AIS narrow route briefing), flight plan filing done the traditional ways (homebriefing.com charges the utterly miniscule sum of Euro 36/year flat rate, for a 1st class service where you can stick a flight plan in and edit it online anytime before departure).

Funnily enough a lot of Europe is OK on airport charges. I've just come back from one of the biggest airports in Europe and paid Euro 40 for a landing and 1 night's parking. Admittedly a lot of UK pilots would whinge at that but e.g. Gatwick would set you back around 300 quid. A landing and a few nights' parking at Corfu is Euro 80 - cheaper than parking a car in most airports and the Greeks are masters at job creation.

A key ingredient of the US system is the Mode C veils. ATC can see what is going on. Here, look at the whinging and whining over Mode S; if Mode C had been made mandatory for any proximity to CAS the whinging would have been the same (pricing is similar). A big drive behind Mode S here is without a doubt the lack of transponder use generally, coupled with numerous and rising airspace busts.

[SKYYACHT]

Taking the "difference in philosophy" point, and expanding upon it; I believe that in the US, the provision of public safety is the responsibility of Federal Government. I would suggest that the provision of air traffic control and FAA towers at all but the smallest airfields is a big element of "provision of public safety" (not having a Piper Warrior falling on your head or into the middle of a shopping mall is certainly popular with most americans that I know!) Therefore, provision of FAA services (Crew Licencing, ATC etc etc) is paid for out of the Federal Budget, rather than the State budget. The burden of the safety of people on the ground is paid for by every US citizen in their taxes.

However, IMHO the philosophy here in Europe, and particularly in the UK is that "User Pays" so - you want to fly an aeroplane around, then you have to pick up the tab. Obviously, certain elements are paid for by the state, such as Navigation Aids (ICAO Obligation). Private airports such as Heathrow defray their costs by Landing fees, and passenger taxes....

You pay a landing fee here to defray the costs of the upkeep of the airfield (as not many are owned by the local council - except, I believe Shoreham), unlike the many airfields in the USA which are municipal, and paid for from the city funds.

A further slice of your landing fee goes to pay the wages of the Air Traffic Controller... WHo will naturally be a bit distressed if he has to work for nothing.

I have only paid a landing fee twice in the USA, and one fee was just 7 USD paid on landing at Catalina Island, and the fee was to the US Parks Service for the environmental management of a beautiful island.

There has been talk every so often of NAvigation charges being levied on GA pilots for using LARS/ATC for information services, and although this is quiet now, I have no doubt that it will raise its head again in the future.

So - Yes, I think that we do have some good free services here, such as MET, and AIS, for briefings, but the thing that seems to push the costs up and discourage pilots from flying more frequently is the landing fee.

I was recenly charged about 25GBP to land at Biggin Hill. and that was for a landing that did not involve using ILS, or receiving any form of handling on the ground. This is about 25% of the cost of an hours flying. This is not a criticism of Biggin in any way, as they have to pay their costs too, but it does make going to some of the more "challenging" airports less attractive to the average PPL who may only fly once or twice a month, and is cost conscious!

But, we have to grin and bear it - or just do what ever we can to fly in the USA/Canada/South Africa.

Cheers