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joser1965
10th Jun 2006, 14:05
3 years on the freighter. i get a letter saying i'm eligible for pax fleet. i bid in april. i wait and wait and wait. no answer. i find out that about 50 SO's have been "inserted" ahead of me and I will not be eligible to go to PAX fleet for another year.

Guess I should be glad I have a job...

mayday911
10th Jun 2006, 15:29
Are those SOs senior to you?

Mayday

petitfromage
10th Jun 2006, 16:48
The most junior FO on the seniority list has been in Cathay 3yrs and 10mths. Last week he was an SO.
There are 70 SOs with more than 3yrs in the company.

Whats your point? No ones been "inserted" anywhere.
These guys/girls have always been senior to you, even when they are wearing 1 stripe.

Your arrogance is astounding.

Apart from displaying your own ignorance, youve simply reinforced the, often unfair, image that the US Freighter crews have!
Youre happy to take Cathays $$$ but have made no effort into learning the rules. Youve assumed your transfer is automatic. Its not! Thats not Cathays fault....its yours.

Jumbonomore
10th Jun 2006, 16:49
Are they locals?

AAIGUY
10th Jun 2006, 17:20
NO..

Lots of Expat SO's in HKG..Senority is date you join, not position you occupy. SO joins before you he is senior to bid.

iMad
10th Jun 2006, 17:20
Joser1965,
Are you saying that 50 SOs who are junior to you have been put ahead of you on the seniority list? If thats the case (and its a very serious case I'm sure you'll agree) then I assume you will take it up with the company, and not just post it here as a story. Have you done so?
Jumbonomore,
1. I would like to know why you're asking if they're locals. Does it make any difference?
2. I think we can safely assume that they cannot all be locals as there have never been such a large batch of cadets graduating and joining the company all at the same time.

mpflis
10th Jun 2006, 17:37
joser, that sure appears to be alot of waiting on your behalf.....:confused: I mean youve just completed the "minimum" time to be elegible to be transfered to the pax fleet and your already whining that your progression isn't happening quickly enough. Meanwhile, the SO's, who have been sitting in a non-flying position are finally making it to a window seat after nearly 4 years. Hopefully every single one stripe SO with more seniority upgrades prior to you, for it SHOULD only be an 18 month stint as a relief officer.

cpdude
10th Jun 2006, 18:22
The most junior FO on the seniority list has been in Cathay 3yrs and 10mths. Last week he was an SO.
There are 70 SOs with more than 3yrs in the company.
Whats your point? No ones been "inserted" anywhere.
These guys/girls have always been senior to you, even when they are wearing 1 stripe.
Your arrogance is astounding.
Apart from displaying your own ignorance, youve simply reinforced the, often unfair, image that the US Freighter crews have!
Youre happy to take Cathays $$$ but have made no effort into learning the rules. Youve assumed your transfer is automatic. Its not! Thats not Cathays fault....its yours.
Sounds like your just another big mouthed S/O! Happy to take the $$$ with no effort to learn the rules? What is with that son?
Many DEFO's come from Military backgrounds and are not familiar with the seniority system. Many were misled at recruitment about there being a position available after 3 years and didn't understand that a S/O hired 1 day earlier was senior. But in typical fashion you explained it to him. Good work!:D :mad:

joser1965
10th Jun 2006, 20:01
i have no problem with the so's..i know about seniority, been with the airlines for 13 years.

i was sent a letter asking my intentions after 3 yrs on the freighter, i put in my request. what i can't understand is why these s/o's have not yet been accessed and why we were pretty much assured that after 3 years when we joined that either we could bid a base or go to hkg. i would gladly do either.

so that is that...goodbye and goodluck

cpdude
10th Jun 2006, 21:44
Unfortunately, it's all in the fine print which CX neglects to inform you of. Another frustrating dealing with CX management that you will add to the list as your time in CX grows...good luck!

As for the S/O's, you will see first hand how a 2000 hour ace can spoil it for the many good S/O's with thier big heads and smart mouths. Luckily like I said, it's only a few.

Howard Hughes
10th Jun 2006, 23:56
Many DEFO's come from Military backgrounds and are not familiar with the seniority system. What if two people join the military one day apart, both rise to the rank of Flying Officer (F/O for convenience), who out ranks who?:hmm:
Oh I see...;)

nike
11th Jun 2006, 01:52
There are plenty of S/O's out there as equally frustrated as Joser finding out their plans aren't coming to fruition.

cpdude
11th Jun 2006, 07:16
What if two people join the military one day apart, both rise to the rank of Flying Officer (F/O for convenience), who out ranks who?:hmm:
Oh I see...;)

Neither, both Military Officers in your example are of the same rank!:D :confused:

Fly747
11th Jun 2006, 08:39
Sounds like Joser won't be too happy when a load of Dragon guys join the seniority above him.

treholer
11th Jun 2006, 08:57
Well Joser has 73 Second Officers more senior to him. He might have to just sit back in NYC and relax for a while. Although according to the current feeling on PPRUNE most of the SO's are next to worthless, so perhaps the wait wont be that long after all. Or perhaps he should try his luck with a US carrier!

Howard Hughes
11th Jun 2006, 09:22
Neither, both Military Officers in your example are of the same rank!:D :confused:It is my understanding that enlistment date is an accepted method for deciding rank with many of the world's armed forces, perhaps this is where the whole seniority sytem originated in the first place...;)

Goonybird
11th Jun 2006, 16:46
Joser1965,
Try bidding for a pax fleet base that is currently open. ie LAX, SFO. See Crew Direct for details. The bases are awarded by seniority of those that apply. S/O's that have not yet been assesed cat"A" are not be eligible to bid for the base. Once awarded the base there should be no excuse on the company's part. If for some reason you really want to live in H.K. you'll just have to wait your turn. I don't blame you for wanting off the freighter asap. Good Luck

Grinch
12th Jun 2006, 00:27
Assuming we all understand seniority is rule 1 for bases... I am assuming the start of thread was frustration venting.

What about the scenario where the F/O elects to come to HKG (not a Base) to facilitate getting on 744PAX fleet ASAP. (pay /lifestyle...) and then subsequently bids onto a base as seniority allows.

Is the above restricted in terms of seniority? ... If so I cant find it in basing agreement.

If not is there any time restrictions on when he / she can take a base (having never been in HKG previously)?

8. ELIGIBILITY...
f. In the case of an Officer who solely operates Freighter aircraft, be within six (6) months of the date on which the Officer completes his/her Freighter Aircraft commitment, or have completed that commitment. Additionally, all eligible Officers senior to that Officer must have been assessed for promotion to the Rankin which the Base Vacancy for which that Officer is bidding exist.

The above excerpt is a confusing to the point that it begs the question... If the company has not assessed the senior 2nd O's ... why or How does that slow the career path for the 744F F/O wanting to bid a base or take a position in HKG.

Ergo... by simply not assessing ... they (IMHO) are not living up to the intent of the agreement. This may or may not be the case ... IE they may be In the process of doing just that and it could simply be a situation of neglect or lack of Communication...

joser1965
12th Jun 2006, 01:43
frustration...exactly what it is

Five Green
12th Jun 2006, 03:55
You can be held on the freighter fleet. It seems to be at the company's discretion. In many past cases this was up to one year. However you do get the by pass pay provided an officer junior to you has been given a course on the PAX fleet. The bypass pay might make you the highest paid in the cockpit ! As someone metioned the 42 months is the minimum time possible. The transfer is firstly one to the passanger fleet regardless of basing. Then once you have met the requirements of that transfer you then may apply for a basing or come to Hong Kong. Therefore it makes no difference what your intentions are going to be once you move over. The transfer is usually given on the date of the commencement of the first FO course after you have served your time (which I believe is 42 months from your course estart date) provided that you have the seniority for that FO course. So patience my friend. Lets not make this SO or DEFO bashing as we are actually all on the same team.

junior_man
12th Jun 2006, 17:27
Welcome to aviation boys.

Your career will never go exactly as planned. Some people get a better deal than you do and others get a worse deal. Sometimes the tables get turned later on.

So, get over it and be nice to each other.

petitfromage
12th Jun 2006, 18:30
Fair cop chaps.
Perhaps the rhetoric was too strong.

I find your points very interesting.
I still struggle to see that after 3yrs you hadnt asked your friends, hadnt had a look in the books or popped into the office to ask how, when, where?
After all its your career?

I often sat in Ptarmigan's, Humpy's & F Street Station. Listening to your stories I wondered how you knew so very little about what was really happening in CX.
Were you just lazy?
What info did you have?
What were you told?
Did you even give a sh1t?
Did you know who to ask?

The answer is obviously more complex than I realised and I therefore do apologise for my earlier post. I made an assumption, as you did about you transfer, and.....

Assumption, as they say, is the mother of a f@ckup.

Hopefully those who follow in your footsteps might be helped by your experience too?

Grinch
12th Jun 2006, 19:52
Something I learned early on ... Never throw out numbers unless you can quote the reference.

42 Months Held on 744F - Negative. 36 Months from completion of PK.

Fine Print - well the print in the basings agreement is all one font and size and the same goes for the COS.

And as for trash talking about how the 2nd O's are(insert negative slur) ... how does one determine that ... based one the T/O and Landings they never do? The monthly Sims? Or ones own ego. Lots of one time 2nd O's are now Captains.

Back to my earlier post...
Does any one have an answer to the questions I posted earlier.
.. restrictions to moving to Pax fleet HKG...?

cpdude
12th Jun 2006, 22:10
Something I learned early on ... Never throw out numbers unless you can quote the reference.
42 Months Held on 744F - Negative. 36 Months from completion of PK.

Does any one have an answer to the questions I posted earlier.
.. restrictions to moving to Pax fleet HKG...?


First part...great advice...but are you sure about it starting at completion of PK? I understood some were delayed when they took a couple of weeks off after the PK and were told it starts upon your first revenue flight!

As to your question, seniority will determine when you can transfer to pax or your 3 years whichever is later. When you are eligible to transfer you may go to HKG or take a base which has a vacancy your seniority can hold. If you go to HKG, you don't have a minimum time required if you should decide to take a base other than you must still wait for a bid period and be able to hold a position on the base of your choice.

Silberfuch…I’m glad you pointed it out and I am very aware of the experience of many of our great S/O’s but, like I said it only takes a few to spoil it and a few we have! The problem I have seen with a couple is not with procedures or ability but a smart mouth and a c*cky attitude.

Grinch
13th Jun 2006, 05:53
36 Months is the number and yes I stand corrected, from 1st revenue trip after PK complete. I said 36 from Pk for sake of brevity.

So sounds like nothing should interfere with a move to HKG after 36 months.
But that is not the spin heard from the basings office.

I don't think this has been run up the chain far enough to get a definitive position yet from the company.
.

cpdude
13th Jun 2006, 14:57
36 Months is the number and yes I stand corrected, from 1st revenue trip after PK complete. I said 36 from Pk for sake of brevity.
So sounds like nothing should interfere with a move to HKG after 36 months.
But that is not the spin heard from the basings office.
I don't think this has been run up the chain far enough to get a definitive position yet from the company.
.
Make sure you get what they say is the policy in writing. Otherwise, bank on it changing a few times.;)

Truckmasters
14th Jun 2006, 14:53
Originally Posted by cpdude
Many DEFO's come from Military backgrounds

Guess what

Many DESO's come from Military backgrounds

cpdude
14th Jun 2006, 18:34
Originally Posted by cpdude
Many DEFO's come from Military backgrounds
Guess what
Many DESO's come from Military backgrounds
Are you trying to stir the pot TM? My quote came from a discussion about DEFO's...so what does S/O's have to do with it?:8

colts19
19th Jun 2006, 22:05
Not much an issue unless you were ahead of them on the seniority list. Then you have a leg to stand on.:=

SCADTA
21st Jun 2006, 10:21
This is going to push back all transfers at least a year...and 7 more freighters in the next 12 months...how convienient that the DEFO's are being held back with no bypass pay by the way.

The worst part are the financial plans after receiving a letter saying "you are eligible to go to pax fleet" then two months letter getting an email from a flunkie saying "oops sorry, we FORGOT about 50 guys that were not assesed, so no bypass pay, too bad, so sad."

SO, for all you CX wannabees....when they say profit share and transfer to pax fleet in 3 years..take it with a grain of salt. Because it ain't gonna happen.

SCADTA
21st Jun 2006, 10:23
all FO's on the freighter are going to feel the "hold back"...I forsee 4-5 years on the freighter with no bypass pay...HEY that sounds like the new payscale, doesn't it?

Sqwak7700
22nd Jun 2006, 03:06
all FO's on the freighter are going to feel the "hold back"...I forsee 4-5 years on the freighter with no bypass pay...HEY that sounds like the new payscale, doesn't it?

Actually, it is worse than the new scale. The new scale has the based FO pay go to a halfway between current Freighter FO and Pax Based FO for 5th year. So technically, it is a paycut.

The sad thing is that we can do nothing about it. That is what makes it so frustrating. Meanwhile, the AOA is saying how direct entry into the Pax fleet "won't hurt us". I wonder what back door deal they have going on with the 3rd floor.

On the other hand, it does say in COS that you are transfered at the company's discretion. There is nothing you can do or say in this case, except hope that they decide to evaluate those SO's soon. I honestly think that they are holding you back until the new combined FO payscale is implemented. This way you will get much less pay. :{

Like someone previously said, I guess we should be happy to still have a job...:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :{

quacker
22nd Jun 2006, 13:26
Don't worry the SO's feel just as S... on.
The book says 18 months. It was running around 3 years. Now it's out to 4 year before an upgrade. If/When the DEFO's happen will it be 5 or 6 years to upgrade?

SCADTA
22nd Jun 2006, 13:59
I feel bad for the SO's too...sucks all around. Waiting then moving to the pax fleet or upgrading to JFO. Then finding out that they are passing a new payscale that BECAUSE we had to wait will now be thrust upon us.