View Full Version : AS350 Astar/Squirrel


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bendix
22nd Nov 2005, 14:25
Repairs up to first 1,000 hrs:
1)de-lamination of m/r blade tip

2)cracks in tail rotor blades

3)binding of turbine blades on engine casing

4)corrosion on starflex

5)leaking fuel valve

6)rotor brake failure

All replaced/repaired under factory warrantee

Know of private owners that never use rotorbrake , due to high cost of repair.

I have had very few FADEC problems.

also had to repair the front door catches a few times

A dream machine to do high altitude cargo work with and I like the easy starting with the FADEC.:ok:


bendix



In2wind
26th Nov 2005, 12:16
Thanks for that bendix!

Aesir
26th Nov 2005, 14:10
The throttle is an interesting one on the older model b3s.

The throttle on B3+ is still on the collective.

We now have 3 different types of B3 with different throttle systems (All collective mounted!)

The first one had a "thumb lock" release switch to increase throttle setting in manual governor "MAN GOV" range.

Next one had a automatic release of the override lock when operating in "MAN GOV".

And now the last version is the best with just idle to full open throttle setting and NO manual governor switch.

The start switch in the roof now has only "OFF" & "Flight" setting :O

All in all very nice system and very few problems with the FADEC system´s. The rest of the aircraft has all the same usual failures, mentioned above, that the B2 could have.

I don´t think you can start it if the throttle is in the high side range in manual gov mode on the two earlier model versions! Don´t try it though!! In any case the throttle should never be moved with battery power off!

When I was checked out on the type we were instructed thoroughly that the starter will not function with the rotor brake on or not in it´s locked "OFF" position. Yeah I knew that from the B-222A & B models. But still one of our guy´s managed to get stuck out in the field unable to start and no one thought of the rotorbrake.. Just think how embarrased he was when a engineer had to be flown out to him in the B-212 and the only thing he did was push in the rotor brake :uhoh:

I wouldn´t buy one though, if its not absolutely needed for heavy sling work or hot & high operations.

Big_Johnno
27th Nov 2005, 17:06
I agree with Head Turner. The A119 is a good all round machine. Would definity prefer an A119 to an AS350B3. My old boss had one until he upgraded to a twin A109 Elite.
John

headsethair
19th Jan 2006, 19:37
NTSB Wants SBs Required for AS 350 Series
Investigations into two accidents involving Eurocopter AS 350A and AS 350B2 helicopters led the NTSB to determine that the hydraulic pump drive belt (P/N 704A33690004) prematurely failed in flight. Additionally, an inquiry into the FAA’s Service Difficulty Report database found that 43 failures and/or replacements of hydraulic pump drive belts with that part number occurred from February 1995 to the present. Eurocopter issued Service Bulletins in 2002 that offered an improved drive belt, as well as recommending replacing the hydraulic pump drive pulleys and pulley bearings. According to Eurocopter, about 272 pump-belt-conversion kits have been sold to U.S. operators. About 460 AS 350 series helicopters are currently in operation in the U.S. Therefore, the NTSB recommends that the FAA require operators of these helicopters to comply with the Service Bulletins.

Darren999
20th Jan 2006, 18:39
I have been told one of the reasons they will fail is constant overtightening, when they get wet they feel loose, so people then tightening them up, when they dry out however, they shrink.. then you get your problem. The new belt however does seem a lot thicker.

Darren

bomb
26th Jan 2006, 20:52
I know this has probably been discussed before,but can someone please inform me as to where the AS350/A-star got the name "Squirrel". This has been the topic of much discussion in our office lately.

Thanks to all who reply.

Bomb:)

Fun Police
26th Jan 2006, 21:28
english "spuirrel"= french "ecuriel". why they called it that, i don't know.

Express Heli
26th Jan 2006, 21:38
english "spuirrel"= french "ecuriel". why they called it that, i don't know.

Still doesnt explain the whole Ecurieul\Squirrel thing! I must admit, it is quite an odd name to call a helicopter!

Friendly Black Dog
26th Jan 2006, 21:46
Was told once that Eurocopter called it a Squirrell as it was supposed to be economical for owners/operators...."squirrell away savings from cheaper operating costs". Unfortunately in the US a squirrell is a rodent (not good for marketing) hence they became known as an A-Star. Cheers

GoodGrief
26th Jan 2006, 21:57
The french named some of their models after animals
EC120=Colibri(Hummingbird)
AS350=Ecureuil(Squirrel)
AS332=Puma
AS365=Dauphin(Dolphin)
SA315=Lama
SA341=Gazelle
AS565=Panther
SA321=Frelon(Hornet)
SA318=Alouette(Lark)
AS532=Cougar
Any more?
I think it might be easier for a non flying person to remember an animals name rather than some cryptic name like "EC120", which is basically an internal code for "1" = Civil, "2"= weight class (up to 2 tons), "0"= single engine.
GG

Fun Police
26th Jan 2006, 22:25
the machines that were originally sold in the US had the lycoming engine rather than the ariel. this meant that they were not officially "ecuriel/squirrell" and therefore had to be called something else. the Astar moniker came from the use of the "star" in the rotorhead, i believe.

RotorDompteur
27th Jan 2006, 06:27
AS55o=Fennec (Desert fox)

Matthew Parsons
27th Jan 2006, 06:40
Dauphin means prince. Dolphin just sounds like Dauphin. I heard a rumour that the mistranslation was not intentional.

[edit] Guess I'm wrong. That's what you get for trusting rumour and not checking facts.

HeliEng
27th Jan 2006, 07:10
Maxtalk,

I used to be that last number that denotes the engines,

0 = 1 engine

5 = 2 engines

But I think that there are two conventions though, one for the AS's and one for the EC's????

GoodGrief
27th Jan 2006, 08:24
from a french dictionary
dauphin m. [hist.] the Dauphin - from 1349 to 1830 Title of french heir to the throne, before that ruler of the Dauphiné.
dauphin m. [zool.] the Dolphin
dauphin m. [hist.] the successor ( or Crowne Prince )
dauphin m. [sport.] the second best (cycling)
I figure since all the others are animals why should this one be different?
GG

CyclicRick
27th Jan 2006, 10:46
I flew one once that climbed trees and gathered nuts...maybe thats why;)

MK10
27th Jan 2006, 17:02
MAIS OUI, MES AMIS
Dauphin= Dolphin en Anglais
les Francais adore les poisson!!!
mk10
(je sais, mammal pas poisson)

oxi
27th Jan 2006, 20:38
I wonder if they realise that the name of Colbri was first used to name a German attack helicopter if I remember rightly...

Buitenzorg
19th Feb 2006, 18:20
The aircraft in question is an AS355F1, but since the tail rotor system is identical on all AS350s andAS355s I suggest the lessons from my little episode apply across these types. After engine shut-down, during the rotor run-down, I decided for some trivial reason to play with the pedals: a bit left, a bit right, less than an inch either way. Then I noticed something peculiar: every time I applied any amount of right pedal I would hear some sound from the tail section which in retrospect I would describe as a soft grinding or rubbing sound. The sound would not change in either pitch or volume while applying more or less right pedal, and would immediately stop with neutral or left pedal.

It turned out to be the bearing in the tail rotor pitch change spider (sometimes referred to as the tail rotor swashplate) in the process of self-destruction. The engineer saw an angular difference developing between the rotating and stationary parts as I moved the pedals back and forth. On removal the bearing felt very “gritty” and rough as the races were rotated. The engineer reckoned on another 1-2 hours (!) before complete destruction and possibly seizure. The bearing was about 1100 hours into its 1200-hour life.

The grinding sound was so soft that if I’d kept a little right pedal in during the whole run-down I’m convinced I wouldn’t have noticed anything. Same, of course, for neutral or left pedal. So from now on I shall be gently “walking the pedals” during every rotor run-down; I strongly suggest other AS350/AS355 drivers do the same.

noooby
21st Feb 2006, 18:11
Buitenzorg,

Well done for chasing this up to find the cause of the noise, but I don't think playing with the pedals during rotor rundown is really a good way of finding any bearing problems. How about checking the bearing on the pre-flight, that way you'll know before you fly if it is OK.
Would be good if you could give us some details as to the calendar time since overhaul, and if all the bulletins had been carried out. When I used to overhaul these things, Eurocopter came out with a number of bulletins to try and improve the reliability. Bearing failure wasn't the problem then, the problem was wear on the bearing housing and wear on the spider because there wasn't enough pinch on the bearing to stop it from rotating in the housing. Your pitch change spider should be at least a -5 or -6, and those dash numbers are from 4 years ago!!! :)

Buitenzorg
21st Feb 2006, 20:56
Noooby,

The spider was manufactured new in 1988, completely overhauled in 1999, about 2200 hours TSOH. Originally a -5, modified in 2000 to -6. Bearing that failed was 2 years and almost 1100 hours old. Being a driver, I can’t be bothered to check how many SBs apply to this p/n but the log card indicates 3 having been complied with since overhaul.

I’m intrigued about “checking the bearing on preflight”; how would you go about doing this? The bearing is enclosed within the spider so you can’t see it, and the roughness in the bearing would have to be awful to feel it when rotating the tail rotor by hand. Of course I check for play in the complete assembly and blistered paint (from overheating bearing) but none of these were present. Any other hints?

noooby
22nd Feb 2006, 01:45
The main problem with the older bearings was binding. With the newer bearings, axial play seems to be the problem. Grab hold of the stationary star, and see if you can move the bearing housing along the stationary star. Heat, as you mentioned, is another give away. They can also sling grease before they give up the ghost. The bearings are sealed, but are installed with grease across the upper and lower surfaces. This grease can melt and get flung out if the bearing gets hot. On the outboard end of the bearing housing, there should be a line of sealant. Make sure this is in good order, otherwise there is a risk of water getting inside the housing. Can't really think of much else. Bearings were always a throw away item during overhaul, but we did check them for play before biffing. Found a couple that had a wee bit of roughness, but only remember one that was kaput, but we couldn't verify it's total time or TSO.
Sounds like you were unlucky to get a bad bearing, and lucky to hear it

rotormatic
28th Feb 2006, 01:57
Honeywell (Booth No. 1907) and Soloy (Booth No. 2207) have obtained an STC to install Honeywell’s latest version of the LTS101 turboshaft engine on the Eurocopter AS 350B2 AStar, and have delivered the first two converted helicopters.

The LTS101-700D2 engine upgrade will give the modified AStar, designated the AS 350SD2, a 14-percent increase in sea-level standard-day takeoff power (18 percent in hot-and-high conditions) compared with the LTS101-600A-3A in a previous Soloy conversion of the AS 350B2.

Doug Kult, Honeywell sales director for light utility helicopters, said the LTS101-700D2 is designed to the same power level as the AStar’s original Turbomeca Arriel 1D1, but with improved specific fuel consumption and reliability numbers. In this application, the -700D is derated to the AStar’s 641-shp maximum transmission power limit.

Honeywell attributes the improvements to a new, cooled gas producer (GP) turbine that ups GP disk life from 6,500 to 15,000 cycles, and an updated, proven reduction gear from other LTS101 models. These changes cumulatively reduce power turbine cycles by 35 percent and increase torque limits by 6 percent, Honeywell stated.

Soloy completed the new engine installation at its Olympia, Wash. facility and accepted 18 orders before Heli-Expo’06. Soloy booked six more on the first day of the show. “We anticipate producing more than 30 conversion kits this year,” predicted Soloy CEO Dave Stauffer.

Before Heli-Expo, Grand Canyon Helicopters chairman Elling Halvorson took delivery of the first AStar converted under the STC, and on Sunday Ross Scott, of Sunshine Helicopters on Maui, Hawaii, became owner of the second.

Soloy and Honeywell are also offering the LTS101-700D-2 upgrade with an option to purchasers for the helicopter service plan (HSP) price-per-flight hour program. Honeywell said it has continuously improved the LTS101 engine family through infusion of technologies and upgrades. This has produced a claimed four-fold improvement in reliability since 1996 while unscheduled removals and warranty claims have fallen to the lowest levels in the engine’s history.

Graviman
28th Feb 2006, 20:01
More info:

http://www.honeywellaerospace.com/prod_byfamily_engines_lts101.htm

http://www.honeywell.com/sites/docs/DIP6YGFTBP5X0J2QEJ1K7FTT5GMEGBEZH.pdf

More general info:

http://www.honeywellaerospace.com/prod_byfamily_propulsion_overview.htm


Mart

Felipe
13th Mar 2006, 21:04
:confused: I would like to have any information on the procedure or an advise, on how to repack a float for the AS350, Can I refill the bottle after it was activated or it has to be sent out. :{

quichemech
13th Mar 2006, 22:15
The bottle will have to be sent away to be refilled and your float bags will need to be repacked by your maintainer. The bottle may also need to be hydrostatically tested depending on its age.

widgeon
14th Mar 2006, 00:38
And if you ever have to pressure/leak test the bags make sure the overpressure release valve is working . I needed new underwear after one of the mechs exploded one of the bags on a BK117.

bluesafari
14th Mar 2006, 06:12
felipe, suggest you read the maintenance manual in conjunction with the PRE, the vendor manual has all details of float maintenance for the 350

bellsux
14th Mar 2006, 07:58
There are two types used, The orange ones with the 350 part number which can be used on the B and BA are filled with nitrogen and have a steel bottle. The 355 number items are grey in colour, use helium as the gas and have a composite bottle. The 355 floats are a lot bigger for the larger AS350's and are a real pain to repack compared to the orange ones. If you are thinking of repacking the float yourself to get out of trouble ( if that's what you are thinking ) and saying later "how did the bottles loose all pressure so suddenly?", think again as it easy to spot a bag that has been feild packed and both bottles are fired using an explosive squib. So no you won't be able to refill them yourself and either will your local gas guy and Eurocopter won't send DG Squibs out lightly either.
I have seen only one uncommanded float fire, the helicopter was operating low level along the coast and only one went off, all others have been pressing the wrong button cases.
The only checks you do are the continuity checks and bottle pressure checks, it will get pretty expensive if you want to fire them off for a functional check.

that chinese fella
14th Mar 2006, 09:07
Mr Selfish,
This old chestnut.........fixed, heavyweight, pan, lightweight etc etc......
It is confusing with so many variations offered by different, and within, manufacturers.
As usual identifying the system you have fitted and ensuring you have the correct Service Instruction (Bell lingo) is half the battle. Add to that the various PMA kits for firing mechanisms - explosive squib, electrical valve, hypodermic needle etc etc...... (Your kinda getting the drift by now!)
Needless to say, as a general rule, at some time, an installed floatation system does have to be "fired" from the activation method. This of course tests the whole system not just the bags which generally are manually inflated during (typical) 180 day checks.
Some operators are loath to test systems by "firing". This is perhaps understandable when some of the refurbishment kits for explosive squibs are big $$$, however many a defective system has been found out by conducting this mandatory check so go figure the logic of some :ugh:
Do your research, knowledge is power.

sprocket
14th Mar 2006, 09:50
Further to TCF's reply bellsux, the squibs (cartridges) have a shelf life and an inservice life. I think the bell kits require the sqibs to be blown at a certain interval after fitting (read the applicable service instruction). The bottle maybe due for hydrostatic at the same time.
This does check the whole system but then a new cartridge is fitted with a refurb kit and costs at least a couple of grand.:rolleyes:

SawThe Light
15th Mar 2006, 07:39
Felipe,

You do not have to fire the bottle to pressure check the float bags, simply use compressed air, AND use the Component Maintenance Manual for the procedure plus the re-packing. For information, the squib is not an explosive device in this kit, but is a frangible disk that is fractured by the heat from an internal resistor. The re-packing is a right sh*t of a job.

Further info. The orange bag float packs are no longer approved for 350BA unless gross mass is limited to 1950 kg

Friendly Black Dog
20th Mar 2006, 10:08
Ladies and Gents,
Sorry about the clunky cut and paste work. Just wondering what the industry feeling is re the AS350 accumulator test. There seems to be two schools of thought...
Option 1. Follow the flight manual
Carry out a hydraulic accumulator test:
Check: collective pitch -locked
Cut off hydraulic pressure by actuating the test
push-button on console
Check that the HYD light illuminates and HORN sounds
Move the cyclic stick 2 or 3 times along both axes
separately about 10 % of total travel, check for hydraulic assistance by
absence of control load.
Press the test pushbutton to restore hydraulic
pressure
Check that the HORN is cancelled and HYD light
goes out.
Carry out a hydraulic pressure isolation check:
Isolate hydraulic pressure by actuating the switch on the
collective pitch lever: the HYD light illuminates and
control load is felt immediately.
Restore hydraulic pressure using the switch: the HORN sounds
until the HYD light goes out (2 -3 sec.).
Option 2. Instead of only moving cyclic 2 or 3 times along each axes, continue to move the cyclic until accumulator pressure is depleated. (We'll leave the other topic of excessive stress on the starflex for another day.)
It has been put to me that this is the only way to find out what will happen (hard over of the cyclic if 1 accumlator has a lower pressure than the others)in the event of exhausting accumlator pressure.
Whilst I agree that it may be handy to know that one of your accumulators could do with some extra pressure, in the event of a hydraulic failure the flight manual says to "calmly" reduce collective and adjust airspeed to between 40 & 60kts and isolate, thus it is irrelevant (for want of a better word) what sort of pressure you have available provided you don't "stir" the cyclic excessively during your calm response.
I suppose that if your method for dealing with the failure was to use the accumulator pressure for as long as it lasted (until short finals maybe) then it may be in your best interest to know what was what?
I've flown with a range of check and training pilots in the AS350 all of whom had substantial total and squirrell time...it's a mixed bag of sometimes passionate responces.
For me I'll take the flight manual response...I like to know how deep I'm in it right from the start.
Pro's and con's please.
Cheers FBD :confused:

Oogle
20th Mar 2006, 11:39
FDB

I tend for option 2. It will give you an idea of how much (or how little) accumulator pressure you have. Add onto that a check that the pedals have lost pressure immediately (AS350 and BA) once you press the HYD TEST switch. Move the cyclic around but you don't have to be very aggressive with it. Remember that you are just bleeding the accumulators. The Starflex can handle these small ground movements.

The accumulators are there to allow the pilot to bring the aircraft back to a more manageable configuration (airspeed) before complete HYD loss is felt. If you achieve this manageable configuration before the accumulators give out, the HYD isolate switch should be activated to allow a more uniform loss of pressure accross all the accumulators (ie. prevent a hardover in one axis).

My thoughts only.

oldbeefer
20th Mar 2006, 13:14
The CAA airtest (flown each year) requires 20 secs of gentle manoeuvering after pressing the test switch before an accu exhausts. 20 secs is a hell of a long time and far more than required to get from whatever you were doing back to 60kts. If the accus are good for 3 fore and aft and lateral movements during the pre-flight check, there will be enough in them to ensure a safe landing if you're in the hover, or achieve 60 kts if in the cruise. Incidentally, the accu pressures are checked during the 100 hr servicing.

paco
20th Mar 2006, 15:26
Transport Canada went into this in some detail after the Ontario OMNR accident - I don't have the details to hand, but you might find find details on their web site at www.tc.gc.ca - if I find any info I will post it.

Phil

nigelh
21st Mar 2006, 13:49
I think it much better to flick the switch and plan your approach with constant feed back etc i think that losing that last bit of help on short finals may just ruin your day, you have done loads of approaches with hyd off , this is just another one !

Aser
22nd Mar 2006, 08:10
or the phenomena of mast bending in the 204,205,and 412 that led to the RIN and limited torque settings in the RFM limitations.

What means "RIN" ?

SASless
22nd Mar 2006, 08:33
NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD REPORT: Details of helicopter crash released

Well-respected pilot known for wild rides

By K.C. HOWARD
REVIEW-JOURNAL
Masami Kato, 24, and Makiko Hatano, 23, smiled as they boarded a helicopter on Sept. 20, 2003, for a tour of the Grand Canyon.

The tourists from Japan spoke little English and were excited that their tour pilot, Takashi Mezaki, was from their homeland and spoke their language.

With cameras in hand, they were talking to Mezaki as he took off from Grand Canyon West Airport in Arizona, about 80 miles southeast of Las Vegas, Glenda Christine Springgate-Hill later told investigators.

The tour coordinator for Sundance Helicopters, the company that owned the helicopter, said she then saw the pilot hover oddly over a cliff for about 30 seconds, before descending into a canyon.

Mezaki was to fly the two women and four other passengers through Descent Canyon and land at a beach pad next to the Colorado River. But about two minutes after take-off, part of the helicopter hit the canyon wall. The helicopter crashed and burned on a ledge 1.5 miles from the airport, killing everyone aboard.

The last moments of life for the pilot and his passengers, are detailed in a National Transportation Safety Board report released on Monday. The document, which consists of hundreds of pages of interviews and reports and some pictures of Mezaki's last moments in the air, is a compilation of facts and does not include any analysis of the cause of the crash.

The report mentions that while Mezaki was a well-respected pilot, he also had a penchant for giving passengers a wild ride. Known as "Kamikaze" by some in tour helicopter circles, Mezaki scared numerous passengers by quickly and steeply descending his craft down into the canyon, close to the canyon walls, sometimes passing over other helicopters, according to the NTSB report.

At 10 a.m., about two hours before he died, Mezaki flew a group of four people through the canyon. Two of the men in the group heard Mezaki tell the woman in the passenger seat he hadn't slept in 27 hours. The four reported the helicopter approached the canyon, there it hovered for a few seconds, banked right and nose-dived. A woman riding in the front of the helicopter gave a "blood-curdling" scream the entire way down, one passenger said.

The NTSB report doesn't include names of the passengers who were interviewed, but the woman in the front, described as a 41-year-old homemaker, told investigators that she looked back and noticed her husband and the other couple looked "glued" to the rear window.

Her husband, a 42-year-old general contractor with a single-engine, private pilot license said he thought the wild ride from the Sundance pilot was "part of their thing."

He noticed a tip jar and sign in the center of the instrument panel and recalled he told Mezaki on the return trip out of the canyon, "I tip better if I get there alive."

He said the pilot was in control and did not look tired, impaired or drunk. He did not hear any unusual mechanical sounds and was later told by the owner of Sundance that the pilots weren't supposed to fly that way.

Jim Granquist, president of Sundance Helicopters, said pilots often are considered guilty until proven innocent after crashes. But he said Mezaki was "an excellent pilot; he was current on everything."

On Monday, he had not yet reviewed the NTSB report and declined to comment on it. He said the company is still unsure what caused the crash.

Owner of a flight school for 10 years and a former police officer, Mezaki began working for Sundance with more than 5,000 hours in the air. He commuted from his house in California, where he lived with his wife, 11-year-old and 9-year-old daughters and a 10-month-old baby, said Stacy Sheard, another Sundance pilot who was flying Sept. 20.

The morning of the crash he was showing her pictures of his children, before things got hectic. At the time of the accident, both pilots had been "two-hours under turning rotor blades," Sheard recalled.

She quit several days after the crash to work for a different helicopter company. She told NTSB investigators she didn't want to fly Descent Canyon again. She also said the tour coordinator, Springgate-Hill, pushed pilots hard. Mezaki flew with a towel behind his lower back and she had an inflated pillow to cushion her lower back from the constant jolts.

Mezaki and his wife lived a healthy life style according to his coworkers. He was a marathon runner and jogged almost every day for about an hour, according to his Nevada roommate.

Mezaki had been reprimanded in August 2001 after Sundance received a report that he had flown a similar route from Grand Canyon West Airport that included abrupt banks and violated other flight standards.

He was issued a letter that called for a one-week suspension without pay. But Tom Schaus, charter manager of Sundance, said the company was short pilots and opted to delay his suspension, eventually forgetting about it.

Several pilots quoted in the report theorized Mezaki may have encountered the "jack-stall" phenomenon.

In 2000, another pilot dove into the canyon at about 120 knots. He lost control of the helicopter and the rotor nearly hit the side of the canyon. He thought he was going to die and gave up steering, which ironically returned the controls to normal.

Investigators examined the helicopter's parts, including the engine, which was damaged by the impact and fire but otherwise seemed functional.

One of the only pieces unaffected by the crash, investigators noted, was Mezaki's small laminated placard, which was found outside the burned area. It read: "Gratuities are always appreciated."

Aesir
22nd Mar 2006, 10:12
RIN = Retirement Index Number

170'
22nd Mar 2006, 13:42
Aser...

Rin: In basic form it's multiplying the amount of landings you make by a factor...The minimum factor being 2 ...This accounts for the high power setting for departure and arrival of a specific flight...These numbers are entered (should be) into the a/c maintenance record by the engineers and become part of timed life/RIN components histories...

Most components have a timed life as you know, this life being predicated on normal usage...If the mission requirement is, for example: logging or firefighting that gives you a demand for 15 to 60 high power events per hour, each demanding around the same requirements as a landing, but with no touchdown...The machine has worked a lot harder than say, charter ops...

So the maintenance dept will (should) factor each flight hour to simulate the additional WORK the a/c has done with all the additional power cycles...

The factor used , is variable around the world from my experience, and can be a point of serious contention between pilots and management
if you work the machines hard. Just because a component has a timed life of X hours in normal use (what's normal?) But if your mission requirement calls for 70 high/low power events per hour...The component shouldn't be expected to last the same time as if it had a comfortable 2 events per hour...

As a good example, the B747 shuttles that were tried in the LA basin years ago, failed in part from the 3 cycles (x2) per hour of RIN put on airframes designed for landings every 5.5 hours or so (that was the rumor at the time)

Hope this makes sense?

SHortshaft
27th Mar 2006, 10:11
Are we making this too difficult? To me it is simple…do as the Flight Manual says. Anything else and somebody will nail your sensitive parts to the floor if there is an accident/incident, in flight or whilst doing the functional check.

As a Check Pilot I want to know that the candidate can fly for a given period of time without hydraulics (how long depends on the theatre of operations). I have known some ‘slightly built‘ pilots unable to fly certain AS 350 variants, as well as the SA 315B at max pitch, without hydraulics and I have assisted those individuals to find a less demanding machine.

The report on the New York A-star hydraulic failure highlights how serious this issue really is.

paco
27th Mar 2006, 14:48
I was working for a company that had a cyclic hardover during start up, and Transport Canada took it very seriously indeed. Make sure you follow the Flight Manual plus any amendments - there may be some new checks.

phil

Aser
30th Mar 2006, 20:26
170' : Thank you very much ;)

helmet fire
1st Apr 2006, 23:45
I have said earlier in the thread that I believe jack stall to be a negative in the 350 series, but less so than say the left pedal issues of the UH-1 series, the LTE issues apparent in the B206, teetering heads, etc etc etc. The aircraft will continue to exhibit these issues unless engineered out - ie unless big bucks spent. In the mean time, we have to fall back on warnings and training.

It is apparent from this thread that endorsement training is quite inadequate. I make that claim based on the amount of qualified AS350 pilots either hearing about jack stall, or finding out about recovery techniques for the first time here on this thread. Limitations of particular airframe types need to be demonstrated and explored during any type rating. Particualr recovery techniques for that airframe, things to avoid, and gotchas are all high on the list of MINIMUM things you need to cover in a type rating, yet that doesn't seem to be a prevalent theme. For example:
Several pilots quoted in the report theorized Mezaki may have encountered the "jack-stall" phenomenon.
In 2000, another pilot dove into the canyon at about 120 knots. He lost control of the helicopter and the rotor nearly hit the side of the canyon. He thought he was going to die and gave up steering, which ironically returned the controls to normal.


I am suprised that there are AS350 pilots out there that have not seen jack stall during type ratings.
Do we have a training issue in the industry?

SASless
1st Apr 2006, 23:53
Do we have a training issue in the industry?

Check the thread started by Nick Lappos a while ago.

When is Training for Safety Not Enough? is the title.

helmet fire
2nd Apr 2006, 00:06
Checked it? I posted on it! (Borrowed from a more popular expression!).

Fair enough, design should change - show me the money. But lets be realistic, it aint gonna. Especially for such a straight forward issue that occurs only during the harshest flying, is easily recognisable, and has a simple recovery technique. Easy to demonstrate and easy to train for.

Lets reserve the redisgn dollar for much bigger killers that are complex - like CFIT.

Agony
3rd Apr 2006, 08:42
As far as I was aware, itwas/is a very widely known phenomena. It was shown in training, with the obvious details being;

a. what it is,
b. how you get into it,
c. how you get out of it.

Generally speaking it requires a heavy hand to get into it, albeit that DA can obviously have a negative affect.

Main problem was encountering at low level, ie rolling and applying power. The techniques of low flying were based around this.

From memory the Ba and later models with the larger chord blades and extra tab on the tail rotore blades did not make life any better !! This was also as the hyd pump and servos were not upgraded from the B model.

Basically it aerodynamic loading past the ability of the servo's to control.

God knows what fatigue affects there is/was, but after having done it and taught it for many years, I haven't seen any negative fatigue effects.

Now vortex ring is a different topic and the AS350, but I won't start on that one................:oh:

nigelh
3rd Apr 2006, 11:22
I have flown mine for the last 3 to 4 years and have never experienced Jack Stall !! Maybe if you keep your aerobatics for when you are not at MAU that helps, certainly you can throw it around as much and more , than any other i have flown. As for vortex, in mine it is hard to get into that state even when trying to demo ! Being fair if you compared it to Gazelle,206,EC120 etc it comes out well on top in most areas.:ok:

oldbeefer
31st May 2006, 07:49
One of our students has asked a question which we don't know the answer to. On the 350 BB CofG graph there is a white triangle to the right of the graph with a number 1 in. There appears to be no reference to what this is for in the legend. Just to keep this student quiet, does anyone know the answer, please?

jellycopter
31st May 2006, 17:44
Dick

I rather confidently took out my flight manual copy from the bookshelf hoping to give you a quick answer, but...........

My best guess is that the first step to take when using the graph is to enter along the diagonal from the base line (and not the vertical).

Hope all are well at Shawbs

JJ

oldbeefer
31st May 2006, 19:21
JJ - yes, I too thought 'easy', but still not sure! Bloody students! Strawberry going well - hope you are too (house looks good!).

widgeon
3rd Jun 2006, 15:18
http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=347092215724+17+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve
quote
the manufacturer of the console, has stated that it will supply left- and right-side cyclic sticks at no charge to current
owners of Geneva P132 consoles, regardless of when they purchased the console.

In my experience this is a first ( I am prepared to be corrected ) , most manufacturers charge for the mod kits .

Giovanni Cento Nove
3rd Jun 2006, 15:35
So whats the big deal? I don't think Geneva Aviation would want to find themselves liable, so are paying for the hardware required for the mod.

widgeon
3rd Jun 2006, 17:17
GCN I have read the entire AD , it was refreshing to see them ( Geneva ) paying for parts , nearly every AD I have seen ( including the eurocopter hydraulic belt ) has required the operator to purchase the parts . Were all the BELL parts required for the 407 tail rotor problems supplied free of charge ?

a couple of examples:-
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/56764928D17C9B4486256CB8004EB76E?OpenDocument

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/5A046538259ABE8386256CCC00735231?OpenDocument

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/E061C198B76046FA86256C5900513EF3?OpenDocument

chopperdr
3rd Jun 2006, 20:02
widgeon, having been on the inside of this particular AD from day one, agree geneva is taking the road less travelled
dr

TukTuk BoomBoom
3rd Jun 2006, 20:24
Yeah its strange how after years of use these ADs come up.
There was one a couple of years ago for the 350 where you had to check the cyclic floor stops because they found one aircraft at the factory without enough travel.
Turned out it wasnt an uncommon situation and once again had only shown up at extreme CG ranges.
Its not unusual to have manufacturers provide free kits before a certain date for things like this to assist operators.
On the 350 most Turbomeca major mods were provided free, ie TU208, TU 255/259 etc.
Good to see Geneva doing the right thing.
Its a great mod too, should be a factory fit.

chopperdr
3rd Jun 2006, 22:49
tuktuk: correct a very popular mod. all the geneva products including the 132 panel are carried by Dart now.
aeronautical accessories also has a similar panel (less AD), originally offered by Van Isle avionics.
dr

nigelh
5th Jun 2006, 15:13
Does anybody know where i can buy part life ( say 50% or 1500 hrs ) upper and lower sleeves with all paperwork ? Mine are running out and there is no extension allowed, so i need them quick !! Thanks:ok:

Flyting
7th Jun 2006, 12:34
Has anyone out there ever experienced a short shaft failure in a squirrell before (shaft between the engine and the main gearbox), or have any idea on what will happen there after and the published emergency reaction to it. As I see it, the sudden increase in RPM after the shaft breaks will be felt through the tail rotor. Will the governor react and reduce the RPM back to normal?

You'll get a heavy yaw, the RRPM horn goes off, enter an auto, then what?

Do you cut the engine to take away the t/r going nuts and then end up in a side ways position at the end of the flare and a chance of rolling
Cut the engine and slide it in with a bit of forward speed keeping the tail fin effective
Reduce the fuel flow controlling the amount of thrust to the t/r
Keep the engine on during the auto???So far I can't find anything on this in any manuals...

handysnaks
7th Jun 2006, 13:53
Edited to remove cr@<hidden> once I RTFQ!!

oldbeefer
7th Jun 2006, 14:16
Suggest you may get a transient increase in Ng and T4 while the horn would sound as the Nr decayed. We teach to enter auto and reduce throttle to idle (not sure that the governor would maintain normal tail rotor rpm if not driving the main rotor) then carry out an EOL. Could be difficult to differenciate between this and a governor run down as after the initial (and only possible) rise in N1, the N1 would come down to around the idle figure.

Shawn Coyle
7th Jun 2006, 14:38
The governor will keep the N2 at 100% (after the transient overspeed due to the rapid unloading).
I've run up several helicopters with no rotor blades and they all governed at 100% with no problems.
The engine governs at 100% in a collective lowered, rotor RPM split descent, doesn't it?

oldbeefer
7th Jun 2006, 16:04
Shawn - good point - I've run the 412 sans blades for a zero tq check and it does govern at 100%. So no need to close the throttle. If that initial spike is missed, how to determine if it's a governor run down or input drive failure (other than to try going into emergency range). I think the engine indications would be similar? Depends how much N1 is needed to drive the tail I suppose.

Flingwing207
7th Jun 2006, 16:27
What will the FCU do when you raise the collective to check RPM in the flare and/or to cushion the landing?

TukTuk BoomBoom
7th Jun 2006, 18:10
Yeah well pilot stuff aside the major problem will be the shaft breaking would probably whip around and cut the housing which actually holds up the front of the engine.
If that happened the front of the engine would drop and you can forget about FCU this-and-that as all the angles would change to the FCU arms and the Tail Rotor short shaft would probably also separate (that would whip around a fair bit too, good bye tail rotor control rod, boom would probably stay on).
Youd have a lot more problems very quickly.
Id say its not in the flight manual for the same reason blades coming off arent in there .
(Youd probably want to get out before any of this happened)

cpt
7th Jun 2006, 20:58
I remember having read an accident report where an AS 350 pilot had to cope with this failure....He initiared an autorotation to maintain NR, but on flaring, together with collective application, the anticipator increased NG with tail rotor rpm inducing an unexpected yaw at this stage.
It hit trees on landing but the pilot survived his injuries. I think it was a PLM S350 somewhere near Inverness some years back.

Ready2Fly
1st Dec 2006, 13:25
Can anybody point me in a direction where to buy a B2/B3 FOM. I wanted to ask here before going to Eurocopter directly.

Thanks,
Ready2Fly

JimEli
17th Mar 2008, 22:51
I would like to hear from:

1. Anyone conducting emergency procedure training in an AS-350B3 equipped with twist grip solenoid (post-MOD 073084 not modified per MOD 073222).

2. Anyone with the same configuration NOT conducting the BFF functional check of the twist grip solenoid spelled out in ASB 05.00.44.

Thanks.

oldbeefer
18th Mar 2008, 09:01
We operate a fleet of 350 BBs with throttles on the collective.. We do not simulate governor failures by reducing Nr below the governed band because the RFM Limitations section only allows Nr at 390 +/- 4. To practice a governor run down/fluctuations would required the Nr to be reduced below the minimum governed. However, I know that the Australian military used to ignore this and use the throttle to practice gov probs and tail rotor malfunctions.

Pilot13A
3rd May 2008, 00:48
Hi all

Can some of you clever ones assist here. We operate BA and B2 squirrels on EMS at a standard all up mission weight of say 2050kg. If max TO power is 641 and 732shp respectively, how do we crunch numbers to compare power margin's at takeoff, in % please? :ugh:

Pilot13A
3rd May 2008, 03:30
My simple view tells me there is a 51shp difference in takeoff power. As a % of the BA power this is 8% more?
As a pilot it seems like the difference is greater than this?
:confused:Whats the go here??

RVDT
3rd May 2008, 04:40
At a guess only -

The 2 numbers you are quoting are the TO ratings of the engine not the MGB.

From memory only there is no difference between MCP and TO power in a B or a BA. 83 and 88 % resp i.e you can fly it all day at TO power - other limitations being considered of course. This equals 532 HP on a B and 564 HP on a BA.

Also in a B2 there is a limitation on MCP and TO power versus speed i.e TO power may only be used up to ~ 40 knots. It probably equates to only being able to use the extra power over a BA in the hover.

The other issue you may have is that the Q meter indications i.e. % versus pressure from the torquemeter may be different on a 1B engine and a 1D1.

Also keep in mind Q for a constant RPM versus collective pitch angle is non linear.

If your question is in response to the NZ CAA slingload with pax operations the "power margin" is virtually impossible to work out with the data you have available. You could be Ng limited - how would you work that out? It would have been much easier if they had imposed a weight margin from the published performance data.

Pilot13A
3rd May 2008, 21:20
The 2 numbers you are quoting are the TO ratings of the engine not the MGB.

From memory only there is no difference between MCP and TO power in a B or a BA. 83 and 88 % resp i.e you can fly it all day at TO power - other limitations being considered of course. This equals 532 HP on a B and 564 HP on a BA.

Also in a B2 there is a limitation on MCP and TO power versus speed i.e TO power may only be used up to ~ 40 knots. It probably equates to only being able to use the extra power over a BA in the hover.

The other issue you may have is that the Q meter indications i.e. % versus pressure from the torquemeter may be different on a 1B engine and a 1D1.

Also keep in mind Q for a constant RPM versus collective pitch angle is non linear.

If your question is in response to the NZ CAA slingload with pax operations the "power margin" is virtually impossible to work out with the data you have available. You could be Ng limited - how would you work that out? It would have been much easier if they had imposed a weight margin from the published performance data.

Thanks for the reply. Was hoping for an easy answer but guess nothing is ever easy. I was talking about the engines, isn't the MGB the same and rated for much higher power anyway.
You say 88% Ng = 564hp =MCP=TOP for the BA. Where does the 641hp for TO figure come from that is often published?
Can you use Ng (being the most common first limit reached) and compare the performance of the two that way, somehow??.
Nothing to do with human slingloads which I understand to be limited to 80% of the charted HOGE weight limit. Just trying to be able to say that B2 is ??% more powerful than the BA, at the same AUW using max power available, ie. TO power.

victor papa
4th May 2008, 16:44
HI!
I am not gonna get into figures here as it is almost impossible to compare the 1D1 and the 1B so direct. It would be the same comparing the 1D1 to the 2B and/or 2B1 on the B3's. We found the easiest way to work out the margins between the various Squirrels is looking at the HOGE graph at 3000ft + and 20 degrees C +. You can use the max all up loss vs height and temp to work out a percentage loss in performance. This is not directly engine related due to the MR and TR blades differences, but then that also tells a story. You can only load your blade twist as much as your engine can drive under all circumstances.

Decredenza
8th May 2008, 04:38
I thought that everyone might have a little tip for flying the AS 350 Squirrel. I have a few to start things off.

1. Place your left pinky (smallest finger) on the throttle quadrant when adding fuel during the start. You will get much finer control (and fewer T4 "excursions")

2. If you are having trouble with the "squirrely" action of the aircraft in the final metre of landing, shake the cyclic ever so slightly but quickly (like you have Parkinson's disease) and you will grease it on every time. (Be aware that doing this incorrectly could lead to spilling all the lift and even worse dynamic roll over).

3. Can't remember to turn off the landing light? Turn on the switch lights when you turn on the landing/taxi light and this will remind you on shut down.

4. Push on the back of the front door 20 cm up from the bottom and it will close beautifully every time. Higher up near the handle causes the door to distort and be difficult.

5. Make your approach with the nose pointed left and you won't have to peer and strain to see over the dash.

6. Our company wants the tail rotor horizontal when the helicopter is tied down (to prevent water from accumulating and throwing the t/r out of balance) If the t/r is vertical, rotate the main blades 1/3 of a turn and the t/r will be close to horizontal. This only matters if you have the blade to the front tie down system

BlenderPilot
8th May 2008, 04:51
If you are having trouble with the "squirrely" action of the aircraft in the final metre of landing, shake the cyclic ever so slightly but quickly (like you have Parkinson's disease) and you will grease it on every time. (Be aware that doing this incorrectly could lead to spilling all the lift and even worse dynamic roll over). Interesting, HUH? WTF?

bellsux
8th May 2008, 10:23
point 6
isn't what those dirty great big holes in the tail rotor for????? I have had snow build up in them but water...:confused:

Decredenza
8th May 2008, 21:00
RE: point 6. Apparently if the t/r is vertical then the water can seep in where the rubber bearings are and make one blade heavier than the other... that is what I am told.

Gordy
8th May 2008, 21:10
#5 never worked---we had left seat pilot conversion. :)

RVDT
8th May 2008, 23:17
Just in case you aren't taking the P**S :eek:

#2 is possibly the complete OPPOSITE of what you should be doing.

The "squirrely" bit is actually coming from the tail rotor.

You will notice a difference between IGE and OGE. OGE the MR wake misses the TR. IGE the TR can be in and out of the wake depending on the relative wind direction. The TR does get translational lift just like the MR and the thrust will vary in these conditions. The change in thrust for a fixed pitch setting will induce yaw/roll coupling (the Huey Shuffle). People tend to try and account for it with the cyclic which is a natural reaction but the wrong one.

Brighten up your footwork and keep it straight - no more yaw roll.

Friction up the cyclic as it is easy to get PIO. The mast will rock and induce even more problems. You will soon get tired of pushing the cyclic around and probably realise you don't have to.

I have had a 355 hover hands off for 45 seconds.

Ian Corrigible
9th May 2008, 15:56
Received from our AEC tech rep. May be of help with trouble-shooting:

AS350 BA/B2
Q. New airframe Fuel Filter part number 402A127 (AMS 07-2827) Paper
A. Paper non-cleanable; 1,000 hour change

Q. High amperage draw - AS350 B2
A. Cause was terminal lug E on the Generator. Clean or replace the connector.

Q. Blade grounding strap insert
A. Insert part number is A0040F060-250C. Use 6 mm drill with drill stop to drill the insert.

Q. Fuel drain cable part numbers
B. P/N IS 1531 or 1533 or 1578

Q. Engine deck cannon plug: spinning torque indicator
A. The rubber inserts around the deck pins deteriorate and can allow grounding of a circuit and allow the torque meter to spin backwards

Q. APU connected backwards
A. The short will blow the F2 fuse in the ECE box and will also burn a capacitor on the Z1 card

Q. AS350 B2 & B3. RH pedal moves FWD when selecting HYD OFF
A. It's OK if it only creeps (move the left pedal slightly FWD)

Q. Low NR in flight. Slow start, NG limited
A. Cause was the throttle was rigged into green and not mid yellow

Note: AS350 BA -- the NR frequency detector part number E-569 is no longer available and will be superceded by a AS350 B2-type detector

Q. AS350 B2 left lateral cyclic binding in cyclic
A. Dunlop servo input sloppy link needed lubrication

Q. AS350 BA cyclic motors rearward with new servo
A. Cause was Apical float release handle pulling on the cyclic

Q. AS350 B2 & B3 stick shake with the hydraulics turned off
A. Cause was the spiracle stops on the MRH (with a TTSN of 5,000 hours)

Q. AS350 BA bleed valve would not close.
A. Cause was the 23K PCB has a solder tracer broken


AS350 B3
Q. NR droops when pulling the collective up
A. The forced idle micro-sw was ty-wrapped too tight and the mounting bracket slightly bent when raising the collective, so the plunger contracted taking the engine towards idle

Q. When selecting start – red GOV light and no codes
A. Cause was the starter switch

Q. When selecting manual during training – no red GOV light
A. Cause was the warning panel

Q. When selecting EBACU on the AS350 B3/2B1, the NR would fluctuate
A. Cause was the ASU 3 card

Q. VEMD cycles would not show and warning panel test inoperative
A. ASU 2 card burnt. (When no cycles and no warning panel test, the ASU -2 card thinks the a/c is still above 60% NG)

Q. Code 120 NF TRIM. (Normally means the NF potentiometer is bad.)
A. Adjusted the NR (two RPM) and the code disappeared

Q. Red GOV light on when selecting start
A. Cause was no power to the 69K relay pin; open at the fuse

Q. Starter shaft shears, gen. light comes in flight when it shears. Replacement starter shaft shears also on the next flight.
A. Cause was the K1 relay socket pin 1 burnt. This is the socket to the starter relay. It may have been the burnt socket was shorted to another burnt socket and the starter relay was being energized in flight, thus shearing the shaft

I/C

Heli-phile
16th May 2008, 05:08
Has anyone had 'events' (actual or potential) involving Spherical stops on AS350/355/EC130 rotorheads?

sycamore
17th Jul 2008, 23:37
A friend wants to buy a `Squirrell`,single engine,for personal use,in UK,so I wondered if I could tap the `knowledge bank and expertise` to find out the good,bad and ugly bits,and recommendations.I`ve not flown one but I`ve read most of the 30 pages on here,from 2001,but I`d like to have an idea about; engine -life,servicing,fadec?,fuel consumption; rotor-servicing,problems; instrumentation/electronics/autopilot/nav.stuff; ground handling -trolley-tie-down etc;conversion time-presently operates an Enstrom480; any other useful tips would be appreciated,but not 30 more pages of the usual NA/Eu divide !I`m only guessing but I think he`ll probably do about 150-200 hrs/yr...Syc...

2 per rev
18th Jul 2008, 01:02
Heli-phile,
A failure followed by severe vibration and forced landing has occurred to an AS350BA in Canada in August 1994 and a similar failure has happened to an AS350B2 and are featured in Transport Canada Aviation Safety Vortex magazine issue 6/94.

Two have occurred to AS355's here in NZ, one recently which is still under investigation www.taic.org.nz (http://www.taic.org.nz)

jellycopter
18th Jul 2008, 07:04
Sycamore

NigelH owns and operates an AS350BA and has done so for several years now. He's got quite a few stories to tell so it would be worth sending him a pm - don't be tempted to phone him up on your mobile though unless you've got deep pockets; he can talk the hind legs off a donkey! (Only kidding Nige!)

I've flown over a thousand hours in them in both military and civil guises and in my experience, they are about the most reliable helicopter I've ever flown (with perhaps the exception of the R22). When things do go wrong however, they tend to be expensive on parts - especially the engines. However, Turbomeca make 'almost' bullet-proof engines so problems are rare; certainly significantly less common than RR/Allison products in my experience.

There does seem to be a spread in top speed for the exact same model of helicopter. I've seen differences of about 10 to 12 knots which is about 10%. If cruise speed is an issue, and it generally is for most people, I'd recommend test flying several aircraft at similar loads / met conditions and do a groundspeed/airspeed comparison at typical cruise torque (80-85%). You may find that this influences your choice of aircraft. Equally, fuel burn rate varies a bit from engine to engine; if you can get information from the owners records, you might be suprised how economical , or otherwise, an individual aircraft is. With Jet A-1 at 80 odd pence a litre, this is worth doing.

JJ:ok:

Te_Kahu
18th Jul 2008, 07:55
heli-phile

An AS355F1 had a catastrophic failure of an inner spherical stop whilst climbing out of Wellington, NZ two or three months ago. I can't recall the reg of that machine off the top of my head; but it was an low hour E model that had been upgraded to an F1. Original stops I believe

TK

nigelh
18th Jul 2008, 20:50
Thanks Jelly....next time you say " you have control " you may get a surprise..
I have operated my BA now for about 2000 hrs and it now has 2600 TT. I can honestly say that i have never had a lack of powe even 6 up with fuel etc so never been tempted by B3 which is a hot and high machine.
I have only had one major problem which was the engine ......not necessarily its fault, in fact i flew it with the problem commercially for around 50 hrs :eek:
It had ingested a piece of metal and had damaged blades in all modules ....but it kept going albeit with a surge every now and then which manifested itself into a kick from the tail which we investigated but obviously could find no fault. Anyway one new engine later , new sleeves, spherical bearings etc later it is the smoothest one i have ever flown :D ( that was the feeling from many of the 50 or so pax we took in and out of silverstone anyway ) and touch wood, seems to be 100% reliable . I do not know of a better single on the market ( 407 is great but not so good for passengers). Anyway i will be selling her soon for one good reason ......as i get older and lazier , i would like an autopilot. Especially for long flights in ifr .

bogey@6
19th Jul 2008, 00:26
What will the FCU do when you raise the collective to check RPM in the flare and/or to cushion the landing?

___________________________________________

The FCU still schedule fuel at idle (if you are in that range). The governor/Anticipator will not react because the N2 RPM is out of governig range and also because the engine is decoupled.

sycamore
19th Jul 2008, 13:10
Thanks Nigelh,a PM to you..S

heliboy999
14th Mar 2009, 18:22
Hi all, I have looked back through the threads for this information and have drawn a blank. Apologies if already discussed but the search function is fairly limited.

I would like to know the real world average Fuel burn rates for the AS350 F1 and F2. Sea level operation, about 100 knots cruise mostly heavy (Within 10 percent of MAUW)

Thanks in advance.


HB999

paco
14th Mar 2009, 18:41
Do you mean the 355? 7% per engine per half hour - call it 30% per hour

Phil

heliboy999
14th Mar 2009, 18:45
Sorry, no I mean the Single squirrel. I was distracted when writing and put the F1 and F2 to confuse everyone!!! sorry :\

Thanks


HB999

sandyhelmet
14th Mar 2009, 19:11
2 minutes = 1% - straight B model

david_in_nz
14th Mar 2009, 19:30
AS350 Super D = 160 litres per hour
AS350 B3 = 220 litres per hour

heliboy999
15th Mar 2009, 08:47
Super! Thankyou.

HB999

Dynamic Component
15th Mar 2009, 23:49
AS350 B2- 180 ltrs/hr
AS350 B3- 190-200ltrs/hr (depends on how heavy handed you are)

fly4crabs
4th May 2009, 18:03
Trading our Agusta 109E for AS350B3. New to the airframe. Any "got ya's" I need to look for right out of the gate flying this thing? No factory school so its read and do time. Will get a few hours fron the past owners pilot so not going in cold. Any maintenance tips would also be helpfull. Thanks guys!

FloaterNorthWest
4th May 2009, 18:29
Fly4crabs,

The AS350 is a great pilots aircraft, much better than the A109E! Fairly basic point and shoot aircraft with very good feedback and no real gotchas. You won't have to sit for hours with lots of pedal like the 109, Eurocopter thought about this and set the tail and rigging so the pedals are neutral in the cruise.

Main one to look out for is when checking the hydraulics on the ground check and check again and then check again that the collective is latched before turning the hydraulics off. A few very experienced pilots have ended up buying a new tail after the aircraft has leap into the air.

FNW

tigerpic
5th May 2009, 14:00
I searched through PPRuNe and found one guy (at the end) saying the reason for the 2,250 kg MTOW internal weight restriction was due to hydraulics limitations. I've also heard somebody saying it had to do with the landing gear design.

Why is the AS350 B3(+), as an example, limited to 2,250 kg internally, when it goes up to 2,800 kg when slinging?

oldbeefer
5th May 2009, 14:20
If you choose to practice hyds out approaches, do a running landing with at least 10kts across the disc - the cyclic gets very heavy as you approach the hover and (coupled with other things) has caught a few people out - with 10kts it's easy. Be familiar with the problem of jackstall if you misshandle the cyclic at high weight/high speed.

hostile
5th May 2009, 15:28
MTOW differences,

In Lifting work your CG is ideally centered. You can't load your aircraft internally so well. That's makes differences between Internally and lifting MTOW, I think.

Hostile

RVDT
5th May 2009, 15:34
Many helicopters have a higher gross with external/jettisonable loads.

I think you might find the issue is the landing gear if an auto is required.

B205, B206/L, AS 350's H500..................etc etc

tigerpic
5th May 2009, 16:32
i remember bell 206 factory training that it had a landing gear limitation, but not in the as 350.

i also can't recall anybody complaining about overcoming the forces flying heavy loaded without hydraulics - cause if you are doing 80 knots (Vne sling) at 2,800 kg and you loose the hyd pump, it would not be allowed by the flight manual. but maybe it might be a problem when doing 130 kts...?

the CG calculations: with full fuel, 400 kg in the rear seats and 200 kg in the front, the CG came to 3.23 m and an MTOW of 2,600 kg. the forward CG limit however (for 2,250) is 3.21, but when i extended an imaginary line backwards for 2,600 kg MTOW, it would have an imaginary limit of 3.26 (exceeded). but, then again, this line is imaginary so it might not prove anything. reducing the front seats by 40 kg and it is within the limit (2,540 kg TOW). i don't think the cg is the issue.

i know this is over-kill (probably boring some of you), but nobody has ever been able to give me a straight answer.

Bitmonx
6th May 2009, 03:54
I have asked this question myself as well.
I personally think that the landing gear is no issue i the AS350. I am pretty sure they are all the same (B, BA, B2 & B3).
Obviously the B model has a smaller M/R chord which limits its lifting power.
The BA, B2 & B3 have all the same M/R Blades (not 100% sure about B3...).
The B3 has a wider T/R chord which gives it better hover capability at altitude and higher winds with a higher Gross Weight.

I would assume that the MTOW was established at certification to demonstrate its performance envelope and as the AS350 got more power its MTOW has been increased.
It would be interesting to see though how an AS350BA would handle an auto with the same MTOW of an AS350B2 or AS350B3. If they would behave the same, well woudn't that be interesting!!

Heli-phile
6th May 2009, 07:32
The higher external load weight limitation is purely because the load is jettisonable.
As the load is slung directly below the rotor shaft there is no C of G issue.
As with any helicopter, if you operate at or in exceedance of the limit the machine may well still drag itself around the sky but should an Auto be required the aircraft will perform like a brick.
Its purely a concession which says that (as long as performance allows) you can use a helicopter (with ops normal) up to this limit, as long as and only if the additional allowance is but a push of a button away.

victor papa
6th May 2009, 16:51
It is simple. Go do a autorotation with a empty machine(as they are originally set) and see how quick that rotor rpm climbs when you drop the collective to the stop. Now, without setting anything, put full fuel and load her to 2250kg. Now do the same dropping the collective onto the same bottom stop and watch that rotor rpm. If you blink you will be at 470rpm in a B3. We as a rule set the bottom stop at heavier weights as that is where we operate and you have to wind in that screw to the point were the collective lock can't reach anymore-in itself a massive problem for hyd checks. There is of course a balance which is easily reached during the maintenance procedure iaw the manual.

Bottom line, the heavier you are the faster that rotor will run before you pull back on collective-are you fast enough?-and then there is the aerodynamic forces involved without hydraulics at 2800kg vs 2250kg. The whole idea of the 2800kg is the extra load must be jettisonable! Remember not all external cargo on the Squirrel limits it to 80/60 knots as for instance the bomber kits does not require that drastic reduction in speed vs a bambi bucket on a sling so you could be bombing along at 110kts at 2800kg but still you can jettison the extra to ease the load and then reduce speed.

newpilot09
9th May 2009, 01:48
I am new to the Astar 350B and need to know exact procedure of start up and shut down. :confused:

Fark'n'ell
9th May 2009, 05:43
Do anyone know of a good way to pass FAA written exam for private thru CFI without reading all of the material?

I am new to the Astar 350B and need to know exact procedure of start up and shut down.

Are you thinking of stealing one?Best learn to fly first.

The Guardian
9th May 2009, 22:21
This link is from the On-Line Flight Manual thread.... it's for a AS350BA not the AS350B but the manual covers start up procedures... there are tons of manuals on that thread so maybe comb through it.

http://www.electrocution.com/docs/350BAFM.pdf

chriswhi
9th May 2009, 22:32
strange question new pilot!!!!!!

RVDT
9th May 2009, 22:36
Thats what the blue book is for. If that doesn't make any sense there isn't much hope then is there.

B or BA = 1B engine - no difference.

victor papa
10th May 2009, 14:37
After you have read the Flight Manual and did a few starts with a suitable qualified instructor, do not forget to get up to date with the last couple of years Information Letters as well. They have come out with a few variants to the 10% advance under certain circumstances on older/cold conditions/hot and high etc conditions. Need to know the machine first though before you will be able to understand and now when to use these.

sherpa
10th May 2009, 15:45
The IGW of the newer AS350B3’s (dual hydraulic) is increased to 5225 lbs. (2370 Kg)
The 4961 lbs on older B2/B3 is a “hydraulic off” certification limit.

tigerpic
12th May 2009, 17:18
Found the supplement after lots of searching - AS350 B3 Supplement 9-28 "Increased maximum internal gross weight to 2370 kg." Aircraft must be equipped with high landing gear and dual hydraulics.

The hydraulics is self-explanatory. The high skid option, however, I believe (after discussing with my colleagues) is because of the autorotation performed in the takeoff portion of the flight. With low skid, there might not be enough kinetic energy to safely cusion the landing.

What do you think?

mini
12th May 2009, 21:30
"I am new to the Astar 350B and need to know exact procedure of start up and shut down."

Profound apologies for the drift, but I couldn't let this pass...

My vote for post of the year. :)

ReverseFlight
14th May 2009, 15:40
By all means start up as per the FM, but one useful tip they don't tell you is - don't just push/pull on the knob through the E-gate - stick your last couple of fingers at the point where the stem slides against the E-gate so that you get a better feel of where the throttle is, instead of under/over cooking the engine inadvertently.

gofa
3rd Jul 2009, 10:36
Just wondering if anyone out there has a computer programme for the AS 350 B2 engine power check chart?
We have the paper one, but would like to get the reults more accurate.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.:ok:

Choppie
3rd Jul 2009, 13:17
The IGW of the newer AS350B3’s (dual hydraulic) is increased to 5225 lbs. (2370 Kg)
The 4961 lbs on older B2/B3 is a “hydraulic off” certification limit.


Interesting point made there. I always thought the 2250 was on the landing gear for safe auto's. So does this mean it's all to do with they hydraulic forces during a hydraulic failure? (seeing that technically the dual hyraulic system can't fail)

czydmd
17th Sep 2009, 18:59
anyone ever experience a high pitched "whistling" noise in the AStar? only seems to happen at high power settings and is not very loud, but definitely a new sound and noticeable...

Thanks

misterbonkers
17th Sep 2009, 19:37
have u tried flying out of trim? we had an r44 that used to whistle at high speeds and it turned out to be a 'flute' affect over two holes that were in the tail boom (they were meant to be there) - never experienced it since but a little extra pedal got rid of it!

czydmd
17th Sep 2009, 19:51
noise will occur both in a hover or in forward flight

VeeAny
17th Sep 2009, 19:57
If it helps I heard a 206 once that sounded like a Gazelle at High N1.

The compressor had been FOD damaged.

Dynamic Component
17th Sep 2009, 21:48
Could it have something to do with the bleed valve?
I know it makes a bit of noise before it closes.
Or a door not lining up perfectly, which would be normal in 350s.
The air vent can make a whistling noise, in a 350 I've flown, when not fully open.


Cheers
DC:}

Heli-phile
18th Sep 2009, 08:04
Although providing redundancy the dual servos will still lock up (control transparency) in just the same way single servos will, just at a higher loading.
Thats why Eurocopter went to all the trouble of installing that limit light.

So same high speed/high loading pitfall is waiting for you F1/F2/N/135 drivers - so beware !!

Heli-phile
18th Sep 2009, 22:54
Might be worth checking the hot bleed line to the mixer box for the cabin heater/demister (under the P2 seat) never good to have a bleed leaking.

Check for bits of paper or leafs that might have got stuck in the de-mister vents.
I once had a post-it note doing a great harmonica impersination until I tracked it down to a vent (kids love to stick wierd things in odd places):eek:

Does the whistle only start when you are in flight idle or is there on ground idle too?

carsickpuppy
21st Oct 2009, 04:24
I have been told the AS350BA I'm flying is up for a 15 year inspection on the fuel module 1 & 2 along with the axial flow compressor. First of all 15 years seems like a long time for components such as these, can anyone verify that for me or am I losing something in translation here in India? I don't have access to the maintenance manual.

Secondly does anyone have experience with Turbomeca regarding the replacement or overhauling of these parts? The company I fly for has said that after contacting the factory it will be 3-4 months before these parts are either overhauled or can be replaced and due to that, are claiming 'circumstances beyond their control' and terminating my contract. The 3-4 months I can believe, but putting circumstances beyond their control sounds like bullcrap to me.

Given the 15 year interval, I would think that gives everyone time to plan for it and places circumstances firmly within their control, right?

bellsux
21st Oct 2009, 05:16
Turbomeca controls the engine TBO's not Eurocopter. There is a 15 year TBO on engine modules and 10 year on accesories that have diaphrams in them. Check TBO's against the latest Service Letter paying particular attention to the Part Number and TU Status of the engine components. This can be confusing so get someone experienced to show you.

The Guardian
17th Nov 2009, 01:53
Does anyone have a list of the time and/or flight hour limited components on the AS350 and any required inspection intervals for anything that is "On Condition"?

Thanks

Ian Corrigible
17th Nov 2009, 12:23
An initial point of reference would be the AS350 tech data books:

AS350B2 (http://www.eurocopterusa.com/images/products/AS350/AS350B2-tech_data_2009.pdf) - see page 53

AS350B3 (http://www.eurocopterusa.com/images/products/AS350/AS350B3-tech_data_2009.pdf) - see page 63

Otherwise I'd suggest giving the AS350 tech support team (http://www.eurocopterusa.com/support_technical/helpdesk.asp?ListName=Technical%20Support) in Texas a call.

I/C

The Guardian
18th Nov 2009, 05:12
Thanks Ian,

Just the sort of basic info I needed, hate to hassle companies when it's just for my personal learning / comparisons...

Thanks again,

Eric

RVDT
18th Nov 2009, 06:33
Heliphile,

So same high speed/high loading pitfall is waiting for you F1/F2/N/135 drivers - so beware !!What does a 135 have in common?

grumpytroll
17th Dec 2009, 22:24
any a-star pilots ever seen a torque chart for the aircraft? I have seen torque charts for other machines. thanks

JimEli
18th Dec 2009, 17:34
Run the power assurance chart backwards.

FWIW: http://home.earthlink.net/~jameseli/Misc/Heli_Perf.pdf

StumbleOn
15th Jan 2010, 03:14
My work had multiple AS350B3 NR Overspeeds with no horn or VEMD indications until shutdown(Pilot confident of no overspeed!). The time on the VEMD is 00.0 Seconds with not other indications, any thoughts? The mechanics think it may be a cannon plag/contact issue; but has anyone had faults due to weather..ie: cold weather/precip?

helicopter
15th Jan 2010, 21:10
NR overspeed is a known issue on EC120 VEMD.
EC issued Information notice No 2010-I-63 dated 30-Oct-2008 related to NR overspeed on EC120B. They recomend replacing one resistor module located just behind Nr/Nf indicator.

I had NR overspeed on EC120B indicated on VEMD after flight without any sign or conditions related to overspeed (VEMD said NR overspeed for 0 seconds, no other overlimits). We replaced the resistor and no problems with NR overspeed since then.

See "EC120" topic on this forum - page 25, post No.495 and later - there are some VEMD problems mentioned there.

Regards

Devil 49
17th Jan 2010, 17:25
This reply will be non-specific, as I'm only a pilot. We're operating a VEMD AS350B2, and changed the VEMD black box after approximately a year in service. I don't remember what initiated the black box replacement, but we had a couple of dubious issues prior to that-
A hot-start indication with a very competent pilot. The pilot was new to VEMD, doubted that he'd over-temped but medical crew claimed to have observed an exceedence. Inspections showed no damage.
A very, very competent, conservative and diligent pilot had a rotor overspeed alert on shutdown. This, too, was inspected and no damage discovered. The overspeed was 1 RPM above power applied limit. The circumstances made this report seem exceedingly improbable.

Our VEMD black box had water damage caused by the nose vent. We've since had no alerts. One display issue, somewhat related in that the pilot opened the vent inflight after a period of heavy rain, which resulted in an in-cabin shower and a blanking of the VEMD. The nose-vent drain tube was kinked. The vent sits over the VEMD black box, more or less, and the drain issues expose it wetness.

rotorgirl
24th Feb 2010, 17:29
Been scouring this thread for answers to this question. I apologize if it has already addressed-
I flew a B2 the other day and noticed that during all phases of flight, when I lowered collective, the cyclic moved aft and when I raised collective the cyclic moved forward. These "forces" were easy to counteract and were of no consequence. I put my hand lightly on the cyclic while raising and lowering the collective and found that the movements I made on the collective were mirrored on the cyclic in the same "proportion" that is fast up and down movement on the collective make the cyclic move fast back and forth and vice versa. Anyone ever experienced this? Is it a sign of an impending failure of some sort? Thanks in advance...

Gas Producer
24th Feb 2010, 21:28
Hi Rotorgirl,

We had/have a similar thing going on with our Super D. Movements in collective are reflected in movements in cyclic.

I'ts more a nuisance/distraction than an impending failure. The issue is with the mixing unit located aft of the cabin space. It combines the inputs from both cyclic and collective into three 'outputs', for lack of a better description. These three outputs correspond to the three hydraulic servos attaching to the stationary swashplate of the main rotor.

If I recall correctly, the bushes that separate the metal components of the mixing unit are a urethane type and don't need lubrication (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm only a pliot, not an engineer). Our engineers checked out the problem and applied some lube to the same bushes and it improved the situation somewhat but did not alleviate it fully. There was NO safety issue.

GP :}

rotorgirl
25th Feb 2010, 04:39
Thanks for your input GP. Cheers! :)

Bell_Flyer
13th Jun 2010, 05:48
Can anyone here discuss their personal experiences with the folding blade kit for the AS350?

Are they difficult to to deploy and un-deploy? How long does it usually take? Is it possible to easily and accidentally do costly damage to the blades or tail boom?

How much are they worth and are they are a TIMEX part?

Thanks.
BF

Decredenza
13th Jun 2010, 14:20
Our company has a wooden home made blade folding kit for both the 350 and 355 (the tailboom strake is the difference).

It is a different design than the Eurocopter one

dWWQdZnTFiw

as it sits on the tailboom and holds the three blades on a single horizontal piece.

As far as possible damage goes I would say yes it is easy to do.

Great care must be taken placing it on the tailboom.

Once installed a blade pin is removed and the blade is swung onto the frame using a 2 metre pole. This too is an exposed condition but no one has ever slipped or dropped in 10 years (fingers crossed). It is easier to use the frame than to remove the blades - about ten minutes for frame, folding blades, wheels and push into hangar

If at all possible use a dolly and a large hangar:)

Bell_Flyer
14th Jun 2010, 22:42
Thank you Decredenza.

Would you be able to post or PM me pictures of the tailboom strake and the wooden folding kit?

I have a 2 bladed sized hangar and wish to use the folding blade kit if it is practical.

Is it a two person job or can one person do the task by himself/herself.

Appreciate your feedback.

DEER CULLER
15th Jul 2010, 06:40
Soloy have another kit other than the Super D1 and 2 Lycoming LTS 101 that uses a RR 250 C30M This is a coversion for B models or ASTAR's. Anybody have any info on how well this works, cost, practicality. I have a U/S Turbomeca eng in a B model but the Super D conversion is a bit pricy. Thought I might be able to pick up half life c30 and get the kit for conversion.:D

catseye
15th Jul 2010, 10:12
Talk to national parks at BK. Their original squirrel had a C30 conversion and suffered compressor stalls. think they got rid of it and upgraded.

:ugh:

RVDT
15th Jul 2010, 10:47
Exhaust re-ingestion?

John Eacott
15th Jul 2010, 10:51
I'm sure that one of Jayrow's AS350 was C30 powered, Lindsay used to like that he didn't have to deal with Turbomeca ;) IIRC, it is now with HeliServ at Moorabbin.

Gemini Twin
15th Jul 2010, 18:55
There a few used kits around and used/serviceable C30's are usually available at : Web Site: Sunrisehelicopter.com
Soloy should know the location of the old kits that have been removed.
When you dig into it you will find that he price differance between the Allstar kit with a C30M and a Super D kit using an LTS101-600A-3 or A-3A is not very much.
As far as operating cost and reduction in maintenance is concerned the LTS installation is the best long term solution.

DEER CULLER
16th Jul 2010, 01:17
Thanks everyone for there input, other feedback i have had makes this look like a bad idea. :{ back to turbomeca, love the engine hate the company, not crazy about the cost:{:{

signcutter
15th Oct 2010, 12:47
B3 Drivers,

We have been getting some play in our throttles, enough play that requires reaching over the left seat to roll the left throttle to get the amber gov and twist grip light to go out when going from idle to flight. Now when we use our throttle to go to idle the ng will go as low as 64%. We have heard it could be a matter of rigging the throttles and or replacing worn parts in the throttles. Has anyone encountered this problem and if so what did it take to remedy the issue? Looks like several possible parts that could be worn enough to cause the slop. If you replaced any of these to resolve the problem which parts were they?

Thanks

Fun Police
15th Oct 2010, 19:38
upon taking over a B2 on a crew change i noticed 3 of 6 blade pins had risen a couple mm's in their sleeves. i have never seen this before and am wondering what might cause it. any thoughts?
TIA
fp

victor papa
16th Oct 2010, 05:47
signcutter-I presume you have the B3+ if you use the throttle. Before I can maybe help, we need to know whether you have the older forced idle switch(similiar to the 120) or the ASB 2 microswitches setup. If it is the older then you need to set the switch so it reads the running surface of the twist grip-with time the little wheel wears and you need to set it closer. other than that there is no rigging you can do on the older or if you have the 2 forced idle micro switches.

As for the blade pins. I have seen it on 350's that fly hot and high at high power settings. my guess is at some point the blade offloads itself in the sleeves as you do when you remove them allowing the pin to move. Just lift the blade and push them back. this is why the tie wrap on the baby pin is critical as a 3rd locking mechanism and the engineers need to ensure on blade pin inspections that the wire lock pin actually positively lock the pin when inserted. The baby pin is the secondary locking mechanism.

signcutter
16th Oct 2010, 06:12
VP

It's the AS350B3 (2B engine) with the microswitch in the throttle.

victor papa
16th Oct 2010, 07:39
If it is the 2B, do you do a lot of training causing you to use the twist grip for ground and not the "OFF,GND,FLT" switch or do you have a different configuration?

Careful with the throttle word, I was told it is a twist grip and not a freakin throttle:oh:

signcutter
16th Oct 2010, 07:56
VP

Ya, the "twist grip" has been used quite a bit and I suspect that may be the issue.
We may have worn the darn thing out! Is there an easy fix or is it the old tear apart and order part after part until it's fixed type of job?

Thanks

Nubian
16th Oct 2010, 09:19
Signcutter,

The only time you're supposed to roll your "throttle" off and on in the B3 besides for training purposes and emergency is when you perform the "Combined Regulation Mode test" (chapter 8 FM)
So, is this problem you're having related to this procedure or is this your normal operating-mode??

victor papa
16th Oct 2010, 11:36
Will ask around and check and pm you then.

signcutter
16th Oct 2010, 14:01
Thanks VP! Appreciate your time.

signcutter
16th Oct 2010, 14:14
Nubian

Where in the flight manual does it say you can't use the twist grip to go to idle? If you are referring to section 2 - 16 PROHIBITIONS, that refers to inflight use. The majority of the time it's used is for training but it's also used on the ground for idle. If I'm missing something in the manual give me a heads up where it is.

Thanks

Nubian
21st Oct 2010, 14:13
signcutter,

Nope, you're of course correct. It doesn't tell you in the manual that you can't do it, but the Normal procedures section tell you WHAT to do.
Your way of operating seems to have worked for a while, but now you're experiencing problems which myself or my co-worker has never had, and it might just be a result of this type of operation. I can't say it 100% for sure, but as we operate according to the set procedure and we have never experienced this it might just be the difference.
I don't think you pull the emergency fuel shut-off either each time you're shutting down, even though it would kill the engine, and give you the result you're looking for.

cheers

signcutter
21st Oct 2010, 16:54
Nubian,

So we move from section 2 to section 4. "Normal Procedures Section tells you WHAT to do". Ok, here's what I want to do. I land and I need to briefly visit with someone on the ground. I want to go to idle while I do so. Are you saying that section 4 says to use the overhead switch instead of the throttle if I need to go to idle? Again, can you reference the page because I can't find that in section 4. How to shutdown the aircraft is, so i dont see anyone using the emergency fuel cutoff. So if it's not a limitation as per section 2 and it's not specifically addressed in section 4 normal procedures than one method Vs the other is merely a matter of technique. Or, are you saying you never go to idle because it's not addressed in section 4? We do a lot of autorotations in our B3 which is no doubt the cause for the play between the throttles because something has simply worn out. I'm hoping to find someone who may have experienced the same and can help me identify the suspected part prior to our next inspection. You're not that someone. Cheers!

victor papa
22nd Oct 2010, 06:53
Signcutter-we have always considered using the "twist grip" only in training and emergency. There has been a few ASB's on the solenoied and the use of the twist grip so I see it as a emergency function and not standard procedure as per the Arriel 2B1 but that is my interpretation.

Regarding the problem. If the co-plt twist grip operates correctly and extinghuishes the "GOV and Twist grip" lights then you need to replace the torque tube running between the pilot and coplt twist grip. This is quite a big job due to the amount of disassemble required as the torque tube runs internally inside the collective control tube.

Shout if I can help further or if you have more info

signcutter
22nd Oct 2010, 16:05
VP

Yes it's the copilot side that will extinguish the lights. The mechs were saying something about u-joints but I'm not quite sure where these are located. I'm going to pass your info on to them and hopefully we can minimize the down time.

I spoke with a former factory instructor and he said it's a common problem with the 2B. Our bird has approx 3300 hrs on it and it's used quite often for auto training. Idle time on the ground probably results in the use of both the switch and twist grip depending on the pilot at the time. We have had the aircraft since 02 and were initially told not to use the switch for idle. This instructor was factory trained. Recently we were advised to continue to use the twist grip because we are picking up a 2b1 soon and the twist grip is used on that aircraft. I agree that using the switch results in less moving parts and less likely to cause problems. No doubt are training got the best of it.

We plan on taking care of it in a few weeks, I'll get back with you on the outcome.

Thanks again

JimEli
22nd Oct 2010, 22:56
On a related note, the FAA has released an AD covering the AS350B3 post MOD 073254 (2B1) and the EC130B4 post MOD 073773. Effective November 18, 2010, AD 2010-21-07 requires a check of the forced idle micro-switches on the twist grip prior to conducting a practice autorotation or within 100 hours, and repetitively thereafter, every 600 hours. EASA issued a similar AD (2009-0256) on December 2, 2009.

victor papa
26th Oct 2010, 10:38
signcutter, get a copy of Information Notice no. 2169-I-67. it has got lengthy explanations, recommendations and previous experiences regarding the twist grips use etc. Hope it helps!

bolkow
26th Oct 2010, 11:17
I always thought the purpose of the second engine was to fly you in an efficent manner to the scene of the accident?

signcutter
26th Oct 2010, 12:50
VP

Just got it off TIPI.

Thanks!

victor papa
26th Oct 2010, 16:21
bolkow, it is probably just me but i do not catch the relevance of your statement?

signcutter, i hope you enjoy the read. If you have access to TIPI, you will find quite a few information notices and service letters as well as sb's related to the twist grip of both the 2B1 and 2B and mod statusses. It is important to know what machine you are in especially when it comes to moving the twist grip with the battery off!

RVDT
26th Oct 2010, 16:39
signcutter,

I assume from your comment "go to idle and visit someone" means get out of the aircraft while it is at idle.

Read the RFM for the B3 and you may find a statement that precludes this.

There has been a fairly big bunfight with a certain NAA over this point as the RFM In the B3 and B4 is different from the "analog" 350's.

I am not 100% sure but there is something on the 2B, 2B1's where with an electrical failure the engine defaults to FLIGHT. I saw someone wheel a B3 out and not check that the battery was connected. Performed a ground power start and on disconnection of the GPU it ran up to FLIGHT!

This what I was told after the surprised look on certain faces. Might be worth checking into.

signcutter
26th Oct 2010, 17:27
RVDT

I haven't seen anything in the RFM that precludes you from doing it but you are correct about the engine going to flight following a power loss. I've seen this demonstrated a couple times, however, I believe it only went to fly when the overhead switch was at idle and the twist grip was at fly not the other way around. I could be wrong on that but it would be worth looking into. I'm leaving for Grand Prairie today to pick up a new 2B1 and hopefully I can corner a maintenance pilot regarding some of our 2B issues. I'm going to run that question by them as well.

Thanks

RVDT
26th Oct 2010, 17:37
signcutter,

I think it is the statement under minimum occupants i.e. "one pilot at the controls" which is evidently not in the "analog" RFM's which caused the issue.

chutedragger
26th Oct 2010, 17:43
I have flown all 3 generations of B3's. Have been the maintenance pilot...and the "aircraft rescue" pilot on all of our problems (quite a few)with the 2b's an 2B-1. What you experienced was the aircraft "emergency mode". If you have any issues with twist grip switches, governor lights/indications...or any issue (questionable data) within the fadec, the machine goes into a 100% flight flight idle state. It then basically ignores any further inputs, until on the ground, shut down and then re booted. Even when you land you shut the engine down from 100%. That said...if you read the POM...all the warning responses are land .... (I assume this is because the machine is flying in emergency mode).

I have lots more stories.

victor papa
26th Oct 2010, 19:29
Where we work with both B3 and B3+, I only have the worlds respect for them taking the worsed conditions, temps, altitudes imaginable and just operating day in and day out. Yes they default to typical Squirrel work mode if we try and confuse them or they got it right themselves. I will take a helicopter defaulting to flight anytime. We often find the ultimate rest switch, being the battery off then on again, resets the system and a problem is sorted out during the power up calibration sequence and if not even pilots can figure out which plug to loosen and clean and refit by going to the maintenance page. 99% of the time she operates like a dream again.

One of the Information Notices as well as a service Letter you will find on TIPI is the one from EC informing all that on a 350 no rotors turning is allowed without a rated pilot or qualified person behind the controls. Shout and I will provide the reference.

Signcutter, enjoy the B3+ as it can't be simpler!

chutedragger
27th Oct 2010, 03:36
Victor Papa,

I couldn't agree more!! It is my favorite machine. It is even better when you get through the hic-ups and have S**t figured out... so when the battery is low (and there is no indication) and you are heliskiing, at minus 10...you know why you have a hung start on an early B3. Overal, the system is an awsome pilot minded concept. Who doesn't like leaving all up at 8000' at 78% torque!!

signcutter
30th Oct 2010, 01:41
Hey VP,

Just got the new 2B1 home. Great flight, great ship. Come to find out the other 2B1 we picked up that day (different crew) had a RH hyd failure. After landing they found both the ac and Hyd belts trashed. Have you ever heard of one belt taking out the other?

Earl of Rochester
1st Nov 2010, 09:11
IRAQ ORDERS 7 B3s

Marignane, France, 1st Nov 2010

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/img_wsw//350b3web.JPG

Eurocopter has signed an agreement to supply seven AS350 B3 Ecureuil helicopters to the Iraqi Ministry of Agriculture.
The helicopters will be used for crop spraying missions over vast fields of date palm trees, which provide a major source of agricultural revenue for the country.
Deliveries of these single-engine workhorse rotary-wing aircraft will begin in the first quarter of 2011, with Eurocopter providing training sessions for Iraqi personnel at its facility in South Africa.
The AS350 B3 is perfectly tailored for hot and high operations in Iraq, and will be fully equipped to perform the aerial spraying of date palm tree fields that occurs several times each year, a spokesperson said.
“This is an extremely important contract for Eurocopter, as the AS350 B3 fleet will contribute to the development of a stable economy in Iraq,” said Olivier Lambert, Eurocopter’s vice president sales and customers relations.-TradeArabia News Service


Iraq orders 7 Eurocopter choppers (http://www.tradearabia.com/news/ttn_188267.html)

Bell_Flyer
18th Nov 2010, 04:11
Has anyone experienced on a very hot day say 100 deg F and above, the plastic roof lining ceiling falls down from the roof. Also the plastic in the cockpit between the 2 windscreens become so distorted from the heat that it "curves" from the roof to the bottom of the windscreen.

How do you stop it from happening other than removing the lining altogether?

Thanks
BF

as350nut
15th Jan 2011, 21:44
Any comments appreciated on use and maintenance of 2 axis SFIM auto pilot in a BA that I have just bought 93 model with 5,000tt. What to look out for and traps. I believe they are 200k plus to get in new so I am thinking it will be good gear. Have never flown with ap before. Ques: Can it be operated with sas on but autopilot pitch,roll,alt,hdg off. If so how?
One other query, I know you take finger of start button at 40/45% but does the starter/gen automatically disengage at 45% anyway? What happens if you were to keep the button depressed beyond say 60%?

griffothefog
16th Jan 2011, 02:19
as350nut,

Do you not cover ground school on new types/variants?

Your questions sound a bit naive, no offence intended :ok:

as350nut
16th Jan 2011, 05:37
Griffothefog
Naive well I didn't see that coming, I actually asked both questions of experienced as350 guys (i'm not of course) and they weren't sure. The flight manual extract doesn't say one way or the other regarding AP. Considering there are so few AP's fitted I don't think it is covered in endorsement to type, unless it was installed in the a/c you do it in. I have an engine training manual which says the starter reverts to generator over 45% but doesn't say that is activated by taking finger of button or is an automatic function irrespective. Maybe if your not naive you would actually have an answer ( no offence):ooh:

Heliringer
16th Jan 2011, 06:49
AS350 nut.

I think you would just engage the Pitch and Roll buttons and this is your SAS.
This will keep the Cyclic in the position you set when you pressed the buttons and you can override it by pushing the button normally located on the cyclic to adjust.

I will say this is from a long time ago so I could be very wrong!

bhl@caribsurf.com
16th Jan 2011, 15:00
as350nut regarding starting:

Without going into the K1-K4 relay Z1 PCB card sequencing in the master electrical box, the generator will automatically engage once the generator voltage exceeds the distribution bus voltage by 0.5v. This will occur once the generator switch is engaged and there is no external power (i.e. aircraft battery start). With the start button depressed beyond 40-45% NG you will inhibit the generator from coming online. This is actually a required maintenance check for start inhibition (maintenance inspections related not normal procedures) and a successful check is noted by illumination of the CAP Generator light. It also prevents a few other items from occurring too like igniters. The Generator function itself is therefore a matter of voltage difference rather than NG percentage although they correlate.

Hope that helps.

RVDT
16th Jan 2011, 17:28
This is actually a required maintenance check for start inhibition (maintenance inspections related not normal procedures) and a successful check is noted by illumination of the CAP Generator light. It also prevents a few other items from occurring too like igniters.

And if it it flames out you have a "re-injection" problem! :D

as350nut
17th Jan 2011, 06:40
bhl@<hidden>
Heliringer
Thanks for the reply, appreciated;) I get the aircraft in 4 weeks can hardly wait.

victor papa
17th Jan 2011, 07:09
In the starting solenoied valve of the Arriel 1 is the "start inhibitor" switch. At 45% N1 round about pending atmospheric conditions, the centrifugal compressor air pressure closes the switch thus inhibiting the starting cycle and bleed the injectors. Due to this action the generator will come online if selected on once it's voltage is o.5V above the batteries/ground power.

When you do the maintenance check referred to, you are actually checking the working of the switch in the starting solenoid valve.

Hope it helps and enjoy your 350!

Ian Corrigible
6th Apr 2011, 13:51
Eurocopter Flies Secret X2 Helo, a Ecureuil Replacement
AIN (http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/eurocopter-flies-secret-x2-helo-a-ecureuil-replacement-29262) April 5, 2011

Last month in Marignane, France, Eurocopter quietly flew the first prototype of a helicopter that is to replace the EC130 light single and possibly the entire Ecureuil family, Jean-Michel Billig, the company's executive vice president for research and development, told AIN yesterday.

The program is codenamed X2, although it has no relationship with Sikorsky's technology demonstrator of the same name. Certification is planned for 2013.

The aircraft will feature a new avionics suite, internally known as Cigalhe, that will introduce four-axis autopilots to light helicopters. Cigalhe is essentially an integrated, modular architecture. It will be first certified on the EC175 medium twin next year. Following will be the EC135, the EC145T2, the (Eurocopter) X2 and then the X4 Dauphin replacement, Billig said. For the pilot, AIN understands a notable innovation on Cigalhe will be in symbology. The entry-level EC120 will not be fitted with the new avionics, which would have been too heavy for the type, according to Billig.
......
I/C

Savoia
6th Apr 2011, 14:36
.
IC: Immensely interesting. The Ecureuil has been such a hugely successful helicopter (and quite rightly so too!).

It will indeed be interesting to see whether EC can repeat their triumph with a successor - if indeed this is the intention behind the X2.

By the way, I completely forgot to express my appreciation for your comprehensive brief on the AS350B3e as showcased at Heliexpo and which I found most interesting. Thank you.

Best

Sav

Big Foot
12th Jun 2011, 07:08
What is the opinion of the AS 350 B model, good, bad or otherwise ?
Why the lower MTOW than the BA when they have the same engine ?
Im guessing the different blades make a difference to performance as well.

Cheers
BF

Phoinix
12th Jun 2011, 08:52
BA has a wider blade chord (from 355 model) which makes a lot of performance difference.

Big Foot
13th Jun 2011, 06:34
So could you put 355 blades on a B model and get an uprated MTOW like a BA ?

Phoinix
13th Jun 2011, 06:55
Sure. While you are at it, add a PT6 twin pack to it and fly at 11200 lbs MTOM. :E

Big Foot
13th Jun 2011, 07:31
Ill take that as a no then.

RVDT
13th Jun 2011, 07:54
So could you put 355 blades on a B model and get an uprated MTOW like a BA?

To do that it would have to be a BA. You can do this mod via SB 01-35.

Then if you have loads of cash you can go from BA to B2 with SB 01-50.

If the aircraft is eligible of course with respect to modification and previous SB status. It may not be economic if you have an old MR Mast etc. etc. etc...........

You may be able to do the B to BA in the field but I think the BA to B2 may only be authorised for EC.

"Call your friendly EC dealer/distributor" here (http://www.ausaero.com.au/Support/Civil/Retrofits/) :bored:

Ian Corrigible
23rd Jun 2011, 21:17
Eurocopter holds event to celebrate AS350 family, incl. 5,000th delivery (http://www.helihub.com/2011/06/23/eurocopter-holds-event-to-celebrate-as350/)

Some neat materials on the event website, incl. family history and evolution (/natural selection :E).

https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/247067_203114136400010_4747851_n.jpg (http://www.eurocopter.com/w1/EcureuilCelebration/site/introduction.php)

I/C

Big Foot
10th Jul 2011, 02:47
I am interested as to how this conversion performs as apposed to a B2 or SD2 i am aware the engine is the same as the SD2 but is there any difference it what it can do with the other mods on it.

The work is lifting work in reasonably high density altitudes.
I have flowen both other types on simarlar work and would be interested to know if the FX2 can give you any more than the others.

Vertical Freedom
10th Jul 2011, 13:46
Just go for a B3e & do it with ease :)

Big Foot
11th Jul 2011, 03:21
Well that has been suggested, have been told the FX 2 is a B2 and half or is that rubbish ?
Anyone care to comment ?

Arrrj
11th Jul 2011, 07:44
BF

Both NPWS (NSW @<hidden> YSBK) and Heliaust (YSBK) have all sorts of AS350's. FX2's included. They are friendly guys, give them a call and ask for their opinion directly.

I know the FX2 is a machine that they all like to fly, and of course, the B3 is the go !

Arrrj :ok:

FauxZ
12th Jul 2011, 01:15
I haven't been in a B3, but we have a couple of FX2's as well as a Soloy. The FX is certainly my favorite. We've been working at sea level, but the temps have been as high as 100F and 80% humidity and it'll still lift 1800lbs off the ground with 50% fuel. Slowly, but it does it. This is at 93% TQ, just touching the yellow on T4.

I think the main advantage of the FX2 is the maintenance. It's very simple, not nearly as many electronics to fiddle with or worry about. We went 600 hours without any major issues at all, and not a single electrical issue.

Vertical Freedom
13th Jul 2011, 04:51
Check out the performance in the RFM of the B3+ @<hidden> 1,257kg empty weight & see how she does. Amazing HOGE, fuel burn above 12,000' is back to 30% per hour but MCP @<hidden> sea level can suck 225 lph giving an indicated 130k but more likely 135/140k.. Nothing goes like she does except a Lama. :D

Phoinix
13th Jul 2011, 11:21
A question for all 350 (B2) gurus:

NR adjustment is performed via WC 76-11-01, 5-1 (not 5-2 as EC discovered they made a typo... soon to be revised).

So, the document (NOTE) states:

The display accuracy of the N.R. indicator on the
instrument panel is not enough to control and adjust
N.R. use the recommended equipment. If another
equipment item is used, check its measurement
accuracy at ± 1 rpm.

WTF mate... what about autorotation adjustments?


So, the question being; is it really necessary to use another pickup sensor to adjust the anticipator for NR (being slightly high). What is the practice?

Salusa
13th Jul 2011, 12:22
Use a handheld optic tachometer (Proptach) About $300 new.

Provided its calibrated of course.

Phoinix
13th Jul 2011, 19:58
It that the common practice on 350?

bellsux
14th Jul 2011, 00:52
NR should be pretty straight forward as per the MM by adjusting the anticipator cable and autos using the collective rigging stop bolt. If you need to double check that the NR gauge is reading correctly you can try this first.

A- PURPOSE: TO PROVIDE TWO METHODS OF CHECKING THE
ACCURACY OF THE NR-NG-NP INDICATION USING A 80 SERIES
FLUKE METER.

METHOD 1

1- PERMENANTLY SPLICE INTO THE INDICATOR WIRES BEHIND THE
DASH AS SHOWN ON THE ATTACHED DRAWING.
2- MOUNT TEST LEAD BRACKETS USING AMP TEST JACKS
AMP P/N 164-401R & 164-401B (red and black test jacks )

OR METHOD 2

3- DISCONNECT THE INDICATOR PLUG AND CONNECT THE FLUKE
METER INTO THE APPROPRIATE PINS.

4- RUN FLAT PITCH ON THE GROUND, PLUG IN THE FLUKE METER AND
READ THE FREQUENCY OF THE NR AND NG

5-USING THE ATTACHED FORMULA, DETERMINE THE NR AND NG SPEEDS
SEE ARRIEL 1D1 SERVICE LETTER (1840 / 98 / ARID / 43 )

6- TO CHECK THE FUEL CONTROL STATIC DROOP ON THE GROUND
PLOT THE NR-NG SPEEDS ON THE STATIC DROOP CHART PER THE
ENGINE MM CHAPT.73

7- TO CHECK THE NR AND NG SPEED ACCURACY IN FLIGHT,CRUISE
AT APPROX. 97% NG (B.V.CLOSED) AND TAKE THE HERTZ READINGS
AND USE THE ATTACHED FORMMULA
NR=FREQ.IN HERTZ X 2.5 = NR SPEED
NG= FREQ. IN HERTZ DIVIDED BY 140.017 X 100 = % NG
NP = FREQ. IN HERTZ DIVIDED BY 70.267 X 100 = % NP

RVDT
14th Jul 2011, 06:41
The Arriel 1 has a "design feature" that causes the RPM to vary with fuel temperature.

As the RPM drifts off all the vibration absorbers fitted to the head and under the floor then go out of tune.

As stated the NR Tachometer cannot be interpreted accurately enough and can be adjusted to suit.

Various methods can be used to use to measure the RPM via a simple break out harness. For example the MicroVib balancer has a page where you can input the frequency value that equates to 100% and/or an RPM value.

It is important that it is checked in flight at or about MCP in the cruise. The RPM is different between models.

Keeping the RPM in the correct range is probably the most important thing you can do to keep your aircraft smooth and should be checked regularly and before any other adjustments are made.

355 F's with pneumatic governor controls can be anyones guess as the RPM drifts with barometric conditions although there are aftermarket kits to improve this.

PhxRising
15th Jul 2011, 16:45
I am not a pilot, but I can give you an engineer's perspective of the FX2 conversion.

The Turbomeca Arriel 1D1 in the AS350B2 has a MCP rating of 625 SHP. The LTS101-700D-2 has a MCP rating of 650 SHP.

In the SD2 conversion, the FAA required Soloy to only allow the LTS101 to produce as much MCP power as the AS350B2 was originally certified with, so 625 SHP.

However, the FX2 conversion was allowed to take advantage of the full LTS101 MCP rating of 650 SHP, 4% more power. If you look at the Helilynx 350 FX2 (http://www.helilynx.com/index/page/name/350_fx2) website, on the right are links to their FX2 HOGE and HIGE charts. You will be able to see the benefit in gross weight the FX2 conversion has over the AS350B2.

Hope this helps.

Big Foot
16th Jul 2011, 23:48
PhxRising, that explains it, cheers
BF

Phoinix
19th Nov 2011, 08:51
Having time to spare the other day, I was reading through 350's FLM. Being used to Bells and german side of EC's I was amazed at 350's rate of climb performance charts. Two charts, one for corrected weight and the other for rate of climb.

Why the corrected weight chart and what is the catch behind it?

Vertical Freedom
21st Nov 2011, 02:13
the sums where done right, double checked & found to be correct :D

EZY AIR
17th Feb 2012, 09:47
(b) Free turbine
The number C2 of reference cycles consumed between one start and the consecutive shutdown is calculated as follows:

C2 = F1 + ∑F2

F1: Complete cycle to the value of 1
F2: Partial cycle (power decrease followed up by a return to nominal rating), related to all the values reached less than or equal to 85%

The value of F2 is counted as follows: after exceeding a minimum value of 98%

When N2 decreases and reaches a value between 85% and 70% then rises above 98%

F2 = 0.1 (engine PRE-MOD TU77)
F2 = 0.3 (engine POST_MOD TU77)

When N2 decreases and reaches a value less than 70%, then rises above 98%: F2=1

NOTE this notably concerns the procedure that exists on some aircraft to lock the rotor while keeping the engine in operation (at ground idle), in order to get on board and get off passengers.

This was copied from the TURBOMECA ARRIEL 1 TURBOSHAFT ENGINE MAINTENANCE MANUAL

Can anyone please tell me what they are referring to with N2?
or does N2=Ng gauge :confused:
as they don't refer to an N2 anywhere except in the above!
I thought it might be (Rotor tacho = Nr) but then the figures don't line up?::ugh:

Thanks in advance.

victor papa
18th Feb 2012, 04:31
N2=Nf=free turbine
N1=Ng=gas generator turbine

NR is rotor rpm measured on the MRH mast and no concern of turbomecas other than under normal circumstances NR is a function of N2/Nf.

EZY AIR
18th Feb 2012, 21:40
Thanks for the info, and that is what i though.

Now how do I measure the N2 free turbine speed? I thought that was directly related to rotor rpm, so read from the rotor tacho, and once you go to full throttle the free turbine or (power turbine is it?)and rotor speed matched/stayed constant together around 395 Rrpm, and only the NG changed its rpm due to power requirements’

ie: less power (collective setting, low torque) less NG rpm and
more power (raising the collective, more torque) more NG rpm, but the free turbine basically stayed the same I know it can move a little.

Please remember I’m trying to understand how to calculate the NF or NP or C2 cycles I think?

I understand the NG or C1 cycles I hope! as they are all measured from the NG gauge and have been explained earler in this thread (around pg6) but understanding the F2 Partial cycle has me beat at the moment.:ugh:

Cheers.

victor papa
19th Feb 2012, 08:59
On your NR gauge you have the needle for NR and the triangle(if I remember correctly for the B2) for Nf/N2. So yes they normally run together except during auto's, certain failures etc but you can look at the triangle to see where your Nf/N2 is. If you have a BA or a B you might not have the triangle then you will have to use NR as your guide.

Savoia
25th Feb 2012, 05:38
Given the apparent susceptibility of the AS350/5's cabin to 'falling off' at the slightest provocation (okay, well some provocation) and given that they are still being produced .. wouldn't it be possible for our friends in Marignane to install a couple of roof spars extending say from the engine deck (where perhaps the spar could be mounted) forward into the fabric (or underside) of the cabin roof and in the general vicinity depicted by the yellow stripe in the image below?

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CcjQlXI2yAg/T0iAHVWsrlI/AAAAAAAAIFw/nJ37jh7iocg/s800/AS350%2520Cabin.png
Proposed cabin strengthening (both sides) within the vicinity depicted by the yellow stripe

EZY AIR
2nd Mar 2012, 23:10
Thanks VP, but I’m still looking for the answer for the free turbine cycles?
They state
(b) Free turbine
C2 = F1 + ∑F2

F1: Complete cycle to the value of 1
F2: Partial cycle (power decrease followed up by a return to nominal rating), related to all the values reached less than or equal to 85%
When N2 decreases and reaches a value between 85% and 70% then rises above 98%

They use the name N2 but the values they state sound like N1 values not Rotor gauge!
This is surely not the Rotor gauge they are referring to?? Or is it!!
Also F1: Complete cycle to the value of 1 Does that mean that F1 can be less than 1 for a start??

Thanks again.:ugh:

John Eacott
2nd Mar 2012, 23:37
Ezy Air,

All this was discussed on Page 6 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/229370-as350-astar-squirrel-6.html) of this thread, from post 111: way back in 2003!

To answer your main question, yes the N2 referenced is your Ng. PITA to come back from a sling load or similar sortie and try to guess how many times you've decreased power to <85%Ng, or above 98%Ng and then factor the 0.1 or 0.3 cycle count! Really, who is watching the Ng that closely when your head is outside flying? Then there is <70%Ng and back above 98%Ng for a complete cycle instead of the .1 or .3. Again, if you are bottoming the lever to attain those figures then you've more on your mind than watching the Ng gauge ;)

Re your second question, the start cycles will be factors of 1. What else could they be? :p

Forget the Nr, it is irrelevant to the Arriel cycle count.

EZY AIR
3rd Mar 2012, 02:11
Ezy Air,

All this was discussed on Page 6 of this thread, from post 111: way back in 2003!
No it was not, the information there is all about the NG cycles or C1 or N1 whatever you call them. I’m after the Np or Nf or C2 cycles I never once asked for the NG cycles as I can understand how to work them out.

To answer your main question, yes the N2 referenced is your Ng. PITA to come back from a sling load or similar sortie and try to guess how many times you've decreased power to <85%Ng, or above 98%Ng and then factor the 0.1 or 0.3 cycle count! Really, who is watching the Ng that closely when your head is outside flying?

Well with an AS350 BA you would know that to get an NG under 85% you have to have the collective on the bottom stop and some will not go below 85%NG even then, so almost no need to look at the gauge then! But I bet if that’s where the collective was then you might just have your head up! and well Max power pulled each time you pull lots I said Lots of power you’re kidding me, you don’t look at that, you only need the max power pulled for the total flight, twenty take-offs what was the max power pulled? That is not too hard to remember for me anyway.

Then there is <70%Ng and back above 98%Ng for a complete cycle instead of the .1 or .3. Again, if you are bottoming the lever to attain those figures then you've more on your mind than watching the Ng gauge yep have to land and pull the throttle back for that one so it’s easy don’t retard the NG below 71% piece of piss.

Re your second question, the start cycles will be factors of 1. What else could they be? 0.6, 0.7 0.8 but not 0.85 maybe?? That’s why I’m asking!! With words like to the value of 1 from the French translated to English something could be lost!
So am I using the Ng gauge for the F2 partial cycle for the Np logging formula?
:ugh:

John Eacott
3rd Mar 2012, 03:50
Oh well, that's me told off.

But it's just as easy to be nice ;)

EZY AIR
3rd Mar 2012, 04:03
Well maybe it was the old eggs you were telling me to suck in your reply that bittered my tone.
I’ll say sorry for the tone of my reply.

RVDT
3rd Mar 2012, 09:35
To quote page 6

(I) REFERENCE CYCLE (Ng): Theoretical cycle used a reference for setting service life limits. Includes one start, one power acceleration corresponding to the "takeoff power" and one shutdown.

(ii) OPERATING CYCLES: A flight may consist of two types of cycles:

- Complete Cycle: An engine operating sequence including one start, one power acceleration and one shutdown.
- Partial Cycle: An engine operating sequence corresponding to a power decrease followed by a significant increase without engine shutdown. It may be defined as the number of hover events and landings.

(iii) Free Turbine: All components. One flight = One cycle

Gas Generator Equation: N = K1 + (n x K2)

K1 = Coefficient corresponding to maximum Ng (see table over page)
K2 = Coefficient corresponding to minimum Ng (see table over page)
n = Number of partial cycles carried out between start and shutdown

Those of us that can read will have noticed

(iii) Free Turbine: All components. One flight = One cycle

Which obviously means as well - NO Flight = NO Cycle.

Ezy Air,

You may understand "how" to work out the Ng cycles but here is the "why".

The design of the Arriel and some other TM engines involves a unique feature called the "injection wheel". This wheel is an integral part of the rotating assembly of the Gas Generator. It is subject to some fairly severe low cycle fatigue as it has the added issue of relatively cold fuel flowing through it and combustion occurring very close by and it links the gas generator turbine to the compressor so probably has about ~ 4-5 thousand horsepower going through it. The fuel and Ng speed are linked so the range of Ng is directly related to the temperature cycle and speed cycle that the injection wheel and other LCF affected components are subjected to.

The injection wheel probably has the lowest "cycle life" of all the rotating components.

Low Cycle Fatigue is real as some have found to their detriment. The partial cycle count was never an issue with this engine until someone found out the hard way.

EZY AIR
4th Mar 2012, 00:04
Thanks for that.

Can i conclude that when TURBOMECA state the below that N2 is the Ng gage ? It still don't sound right but the number are usable!

When N2 decreases and reaches a value between 85% and 70% then rises above 98%

F2 = 0.1 (engine PRE-MOD TU77)
F2 = 0.3 (engine POST_MOD TU77)

When N2 decreases and reaches a value less than 70%, then rises above 98%: F2=1

RVDT
4th Mar 2012, 05:32
Ezy,

I dont know where your original source of info came from but the N2 does not make sense to me and should actually be Ng.

The incident that I referred was a 350B1 with a 1D engine which was doing repetitive lift jobs with periods on the ground at idle. Partial cycles were not being recorded and the gas generator assembly eventually "left the building" so to speak.

General consensus is that recording of partial cycles has not been recorded so well in the past as it is quite difficult to achieve accurately without some assistance from automation. Many operators got a bit of a wakeup call when migrating from B2 to B3 which of course does it automatically! This is evident mostly with repetitive heavy lifting.

If you dig really deep in 350B SB's and TM TU's there is/was a tacho box modification that will/would do it for you. That being said there are aftermarket units out there that may be more economic as that mod may have disappeared.

The trick with the formula is knowing the maximum Ng achieved for a particular flight plus the number of times the Ng goes below 70%. If you have a flight profile that is pretty standard it is not so difficult but other profiles can be a distraction.

EZY AIR
4th Mar 2012, 22:50
The document has a task number of
05-10-03-900-801-A01

blueriver68
13th Apr 2012, 21:10
Hi
I need an information,
do you think it is useful take type rating AS350 BA then proceed with AS 350 B3 with only 2 hours or it is better take type rating directly to AS350 B3 , in this case you can not pilot AS 350 Ba without other 5 hours?
how many AS 350 around europe or outside europe are available?
thank you

mickjoebill
14th Apr 2012, 02:04
Given the apparent susceptibility of the AS350/5's cabin to 'falling off' at the slightest provocation (okay, well some provocation) and given that they are still being produced .. wouldn't it be possible for our friends in Marignane to install a couple of roof spars extending say from the engine deck (where perhaps the spar could be mounted) forward into the fabric (or underside) of the cabin roof and in the general vicinity depicted by the yellow stripe in the image below?

Good thinking!

The significant issues are gearbox intrusion into the back seat and errant rotor blade into the front.

Perhaps your roof member could be designed to deflect the blade? Massive forces involved though...
After looking at ways to integrate camera processing and monitors in the rear I came up with a concept of a carbon fibre framework that installs inside the cockpit like a roll cage.
Seats and electronic kit attach to the framework. You would lose one seat in the rear. Then I though that if the frame work extended to the front that it would aid survivability of front seat passengers. There is space between front seats and door for the frame work. Would be very expensive to develop.

It is a glaring design issue that the blade can bend down and chop off the top half of the cabin.

I'm not a stranger to the manufacture of F1 bodies, given a clean sheet... one could make a new cabin in composite as one piece. In a prang the entire ball could detach and (with luck) roll away from the noise, fuel and moving parts.
I reckon this is better than the latest composite designs that incorporate engine mounts fuel cell and tail boom into the passenger cell.


Whilst there is little choice the more we crow about poor crash worthiness the better... as demonstrated by R44 fuel cell situation.

Ready2Fly
16th Apr 2012, 13:18
@<hidden>
my 2 cents: It depends on your situation. Are you going to fly B3's only afterwards? Are you paying yourself for the typerating?

In general the B3 is just a piece of cake coming from a B/BA/B2. Startup by simply turning a (ok, two) switches. No 'real' governor failures to train and usually no need to think about power available.

However, if it was my pocket, i'd to the TR on a BA (i did actually) and differences training for the B3 afterwards (45-60 min of flight ... typically like a checkflight). The typerating itself actually is AS350/350B3/130B4 with only differences training between them.

It depends on the owner anyway whether he gives you his helicopter with less than 20ish hours supervision on type.

Whatever you do: Have fun (you definately will) :ok:

RVDT
17th Apr 2012, 07:45
blueriver,

It may be interesting to read this (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.easa.eu.int%2Fcertification%2Fflight-standards%2Fdoc%2Foeb-final-report%2Feurocopter%2FAS-350-Family.pdf&ei=EB6NT_vLIc7TsgaKl7CrCQ&usg=AFQjCNFleav7uRfBGJ8syyPrGhZQ9_buNw&sig2=wOqGr3lt0_Gc3b3QwjjNBA).

alouette
13th May 2012, 02:24
I have a question about the "low rotor rpm audio warning" button.

Does the low rotor rpm warning horn sound before starting the engine? The check which I was tought was starting the engine first, and then while running up check if the low rotor rpm audio warning goes off at approximately 360 rpm.

Feedback apreciated.

Cheers,

Alouette:ok:

Flyting
10th Jul 2012, 06:42
When draining the fuel filter (by the main gear box, port side) it tends to spray all over the place...!
Has any one come up with a funnel or fuel catcher system to prevent this?

agodesign
10th Jul 2012, 22:42
Flyting


I found it best to just use a very light pressure. This allows fuel to drain at a better pace, which keeps it from pooling on the floor. I little practice and you should be able to not spill any. :ok:

agodesign
10th Jul 2012, 23:15
"Does the low rotor rpm warning horn sound before starting the engine? The check which I was tought was starting the engine first, and then while running up check if the low rotor rpm audio warning goes off at approximately 360 rpm."

BA & B2 you can press the "horn" button with the engine off and master electrical on, it should sound. Horn is muted (with button in) when hyd pressure > 30 bar & RPM < 250. And when RPM > 360 (& < 410 *B2*)

bellsux
10th Jul 2012, 23:18
Get a short length of clear tube (6 inches) and keep it in your fuel drain jar. Tygon tube is the best as it does not age harden, this also stops false readings from the muck stuck in the drain tube under your filter housing.

as350nut
30th Jul 2012, 05:58
My BA Newly acquired is excellent for lifting power hovering ige at 68/70 Torque at max gross + but seems slow. 96 ng 65torque 650Temp and it runs about 100 105 kts with 1 pax and half fuel. Any engineers know how to tweak it up speed wise? Its dead smooth so a bit reluctant to muck around if there is no real benefit I would like to see 115k. I suppose I can pull 97ng but I don't like pushing it too hard. Is it a flat pitch setting issue?

alouette
30th Jul 2012, 06:07
@<hidden>; Thanks!!!:ok:

Heli-phile
30th Jul 2012, 22:51
Polish everything , low skids and no hook will add 15 kts to cruise speed.

agodesign
4th Aug 2012, 00:22
BA speed

One thing that might help. The 350 is a little harder to tell if you are in trim, if you are coming from a robbie. Two things can throw you off.

The trim string out on the little flag pole makes it hard to know if you are exactly in trim. The second really is because the 350 can be loaded with a large variety of lateral CG, so to be truly in trim you may feel like you are leaning, the ball will be off. Just a little out of trim can easily steal 5-8 knots, without you really even being aware.:ok:

as350nut
4th Aug 2012, 06:24
Thanks I know what you mean on the balance, I might have it worked out there has been a problem with the bleed valve not shutting. When I first got it it was faster then got slower, now bleed valve is not shutting at all. Will be replacing the little black box( pilot tech talk) next week. I suspect this might help. Will advise.

Anthony Supplebottom
1st Dec 2012, 14:37
Can anyone advise whether Brazilian-built Squirrels can be traded outside of Latin America?

helicopterray
1st Dec 2012, 22:31
No it can't. It's built under licence, and as such, does not have a Type Certificate anywhere outside Brazil.

RVDT
2nd Dec 2012, 00:16
Yes they can but you have to look very deep into the circumstances.

HB 350 B - No unless upgraded to a BA.

There are a few BA's and B2's that have migrated outside Brazil.

The eligible serial number document L102-001 is the key and you may have fun trying to view that!

AE-MS refers to American Eurocopter Mississippi.


EASA TCDS R.008

AS 350 BA

1. Eligible serial numbers: - AS 350 BA aircraft S/N 2588 and up.
- AS 350 B aircraft converted into AS 350 BA by application of Service Bulletin n° 01.00.35
- AS 350 D aircraft converted into AS 350 BA by application of Service Bulletin n° 01.00.40.
The aircrafts whose s/n is listed in Eurocopter document L102-001 are manufactured under Helibras and those in L102-002 under
AE-MS license.

AS 350 B2

1. Eligible serial numbers: - AS 350 B2 aircraft S/N 2100 and up
- AS 350 B1 aircraft converted into AS 350 B2 by application of Service Bulletin n° 01.26 or
01.00.26
- AS 350 B aircraft converted into AS 350 B2 by application of Service Bulletin n° 01.00.51
- AS 350 BA aircraft converted into AS 350 B2 by application of Service Bulletin n° 01.00.50 or
Service Bulletin n° 01.90.61
- AS 350 B2 with VEMD major modification: aircraft S/N 4129 and up
The aircrafts whose s/n is listed in Eurocopter document L102-001 are manufactured under Helibras license and those in L 102-002
under AE-MS license.

AS 350 B3

1. Eligible serial numbers: - AS 350 B3 aircraft S/N 2968, S/N 3063 and up.
- AS 350 B3 aircraft S/N 4201 and up for a/c incorporating mod. OP-3369 (2370 kg weight extension)
- AS 350 B3 aircraft S/N 4767 and up for a/c incorporating mod. OP-4305 (without or with mod. OP-
3369)
The aircraft whose s/n is listed in Eurocopter documents L102-001 are manufactured under Helibras license and those in L102-002
under AE-MS license.

Anthony Supplebottom
2nd Dec 2012, 11:56
RVDT thanks.

I think I will run the serial number through EC just to be sure.

TBM700
31st Mar 2013, 17:15
Hello,

Does any of us has heard about a Owners and pilots association for the squirrel family ?

I am especially looking for any suggestion for a cargo luggage net.
Especially usefull when all seats removed and a plenty of things to put around the pilot in the cockpit !

:)

Savoia
31st Mar 2013, 17:34
TBM: Read about the luggage net here (http://gemairsea.com/by-helicopter-type/eurostar-as-350/) and about the AS350 in general on this (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/229370-as350-astar-squirrel.html) one.

Re: An Ecureuil owners club .. I've not heard of one. They are, well .. how can one put this tactfully .. rather popular! ;)

TBM700
31st Mar 2013, 17:40
Grazie mille, molto gentile :p

helicopterray
31st Mar 2013, 19:07
There is a cabin netting available from Eurocopter for that purpose. I believe it is listed in the IPC, which I don't have with me at home.

There is a complete catalogue for aftermarket items here:

http://www.eurocopter.ca/wp-content/themes/blank-theme/pdfs/complete-options-catalogue.pdf

TBM700
31st Mar 2013, 20:20
Thank you,
I don't see any in your canadian link.
But thank you for providing your help

Savoia
19th Oct 2013, 11:13
2DYKpbtHWr8

Hey Randy .. what was that word you used to describe how the rest of the world call the Astar! :E

heliduck
11th Jan 2014, 00:01
I am interested to know if the new type seats in the B3e stand up to a crash better than the previous type. Has anyone had the good fortune to crash one & walk away yet?

hillberg
11th Jan 2014, 02:04
Not one word about battery condition or voltage, The #1 reason for hot starts.:D