Exchange tours?

[brickhistory]

With the many exhange tours between the US and Britain over the years, have there been UK aircraft types where US aircrew have not been allowed to serve?

Same for the opposite exchanges: have there been US aircraft types where RAF/FAA aviators have not been allowed to participate?

[Safeware]

IIRC, even the F117 had a Jag exchange pilot before it came out of the black.

sw

[spocla]

Sorry, but what does IIRC mean?

[brickhistory]

"If I recall/remember correctly."

[buoy15]

Spoda
Does your mom know you are on this thread?

[Pontius Navigator]

spocla, thank you for that, I wondered:)

Me, I don't have that problem:)

There were no USAF exchange personnel on the V-force sqns in the late 60s to early 70s. I can't answer outside that. The reason was that Plan B, our independent nuclear ops plan was Eyes Only. There were USAF staff officers at 1 Gp and Bomber/Strike Command but they were not allowed in the vaults and usually confined to the exercise desk rather than the ops desk.

The bomber school, OTOH, had a nav rad, probaby off B47s. George Chabot (shab bow) taught us servos and M-type trasmitters, feedback etc and I flew with him at least once in the Hastings. Intensely professional . . . but then we were Brits.

I don't recall a USAF officer on 230 OCU (Vulcan) groundschool.

[Zoom]

Duty-wise, I wasn't allowed to sit USAF QRA or fly into one particular island base, presumably in case I created an international incident. Also I wasn't allowed to know what that black box was, there just aft of the radio, the one with the label on it that said '.............................' and which I used to instruct new aircrew on.

[brickhistory]

Zoom,

Sorry, to what a/c are you referring?

As a further explanation, in writing several articles on various a/c, both British and American, I've interviewed gents who flew for the other side (US in Bucc, Lightning, Jaguar, SHAR on the eastern side of the Atlantic; UK in F-4, C-130 and KC-135 on my side of the water). As was mentioned I also know of RAF types who flew our U-2 (including carrier qualification!), and F-117.

From what PN wrote, seems as if the ones that carried the biggest 'bangs' were limited to natives only. I would assume the same for our B-47/52, etc, but don't know that. Just curious about some of the many other types that have gone aloft since WWII.

[Ali Barber]

One of my RAF mates was not allowed to attend a Friday ground training session while on exchange on F-15s, as the subject was "US Eyes Only". The subject was Rapier!:confused:

[Zoom]

brickhistory
The F-4, and I'll PM you with the location. As a result of not being totally involved I felt that I was not always pulling my weight, so I tried to make up for it by volunteering for extra exercise deployments (nowhere sunny, unfortunately), weekend FCF and SOF duties (ie air tests and Duty Pilot), etc. Despite that, it was a bl**dy good tour.

[LFittNI]

Slightly off the topic, but is an interesting item--and this is a rumour network-- so, here goes:-
It is alleged that ;) there was a Sqdn.Ldr. B*********s at Seletar in 1968, who went mildly native and spent all his leave up country, going further north each time. In northern Thailand, he chanced upon a USAF Major based at RTAF Udorn who he had known when both were based at Wattisham and Lakenheath respectively.
Many beers flowed, bravado took hold, and they cooked up a scheme for the RAF man to fly an operational mission (Vietnam, of course). This happened, and (it is said) the guy did at least one mission in the back of an F-4, over Laos.
This story was quite common currency in Singapore at the time, and afterwards, and the RAF man was said to be almost the only serving RAF aircrew who had been chased by a SAM-3 for real.

[kluge]

Was told a similar story (from the man himself) who was an RAAF F-86 chap
at the same time.

He's still around, superb chap and a real gent - still flying slightly southwest of Kingsford Smith. Taught me a lot about flying upside down.

[Art Field]

Not aircraft types but the USAF exchange pilot on Victor Tankers was not allowed on Ascension Island during Op Corporate, IIRC.

[Lazer-Hound]

Not aircraft types but the USAF exchange pilot on Victor Tankers was not allowed on Ascension Island during Op Corporate, IIRC.

Odd, seeing that Wideawake is/was a US built and operated airfield.

[teeteringhead]

And more parochially, when I was first on 72 Sqn with the mighty Wessex in the early 70s, our USAF exchange pilot was not allowed to go to Northern Ireland - even on aircraft changeovers...

... funnily enough he was the last incumbent and the post was moved to Ternhill/Shawbury ....

[foldingwings]

Brick,

Hi again. As one of your Bucc sources, I can confirm that the USAF/USN guys over here were only allowed to serve on the UK-based squadrons, however, they were excluded from all aspects nuke for the same reasons as pointed out by PN. Also, when the Buccs were (almost) deployed in 1974 in response to the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the USAF exchange pilot, that I was then crewed with, and the USN navigator on the squadron were split from their RAF crews and left behind to look after the wives (nice job!). As it happened we never went. Exchange aircrew were not allowed := on the Bucc squadrons based in Germany because of those sqns' assignment to SACEUR and all that that entailed (get my drift).

FW

[WhiteOvies]

The USAF exchange guys were probably not allowed during Corporate due to the fact that the USA was technically supporting the Junta in Argentina with kit (A-4, C-130 etc) to help their fight against their distinctly left leaning South American counterparts. Hence the supply of the latest Sidewinder for the SHARS being kept quiet. No official support of the UK by the USA who were also trying to broker a peace deal IIRC.
I guess the USA was a bit worried we might use the Vulcan properly on Buenos Aires and take out an ally in the fight against communism in South America.

[The Real Slim Shady]

In the late 70s 230 OCU had a USAF Major, ex B52s, on exchange; quite a character too. I recall one Friday evening when he had left some apparently important artefact in the bar after Happy Hour and was sent back by wifey close to chucking out time. He appeared in the Scruffs in his jim jams,dressing gown, cowboy boots and steson with an enormous stogie and proceeded to have another couple of beers "for the road".

[lukeylad]

Not aircraft types but the USAF exchange pilot on Victor Tankers was not allowed on Ascension Island during Op Corporate, IIRC.

the thing you have to remeber about that is that all exchange pilots were sent home during the conlfict for example and american marine corp pilot was sent home from 800NAS and i remeber reading in a book he reaction went like this: "You can have a war and not invite the marines"

[diginagain]

4 Regiment AAC Group took a US Army exchange pilot on Op Granby. But then, with so many of his compatriots about, why not?

[Bof]

In the mid 50s at West Malling there was a guy, one Johnny Hind on 25 Sqn who was selected for a fighter exchange tour with the "you-alls". Some of the happiness must have worn off when he found out it was on F-86Ds - at Manston just down the road!! By the mid 60s the RAF exchange officer in Alaska couldn't fly if the F-102s were carrying nukes, which with the advent of Cuba was most of the time. Exchange promptly switched to C-130s (thanks very much). I had the usual thing about "no forn" but it didn't really have much effect. Although the rare trip to Viet Nam was a no-no, I was allowed to participate in some of the flights into Amchitka (Aleutions) for the underground nuke trials as standby evacuation if anything went wrong.
I found the tour was great but difficult to get through the USAF culture on occasions. If one tried to point out an area where we maybe did something more practically, they would listen politely and then say "We do it this way - because that's what it says in the book!"

[FJJP]

Real Slim,

Yeh, what a guy - John caused me so much grief when I regularly staggered home after several of his infamous 'Beam & Sevens'! Socially, he was light years ahead of his predecessor.

Sad to tell, he died a couple of years ago - heart gave out I believe.

FJJP

[Acey ducey]

I'm currently on exchange with the US Navy, responsible for writing all the maritime helicopter (SH/MH-60 series) tactics manuals. The big joke here is that the manuals are all classified NOFORN (No foreign!) so technically I'm not allowed to to look at the books I oversee or practice the tactics in them because I don't know what is in them because I'm not allowed to read them even though I've written them. Makes the job a tad interesting!!

[Dunhovrin]

Slight digresion- but read a letter in the Torygraph last month about British WW2 propaganda leaflets being classified to prevent them falling into enemy hands.

Sorry- carry on.

[BEagle]

I remember that Vulcan mate - he was famous for dropping a B-52's worth of ordnance on some SE asian jungle when his navigator misheard the callsign - some 30 minutes before scheduled drop time. And no-one ever complained!

The spam exchange officers on the Vicker FunBus used to have a secret brief to eachother when they arrived - "Tell the Brits that the embassy don't let us go to the Malvinas!".

Until one of them actually asked the embassy - whereupon the ruse was rumbled and from then on they too wasted many hours watching cr@p videos in the 1312 Flt facility at Base Aerea Gringo. Unless, that is, some tit like Daisy organised SLJs for them!

[FJJP]

A first rate mate who worked in the Enbassy in Washington tells the story of a Brit sen. off. working in the Pentagon. He received a file maked 'NOFORN' by mistake. He took it to his boss and said that he had obviously been sent it in error. A full bird colonel was clearing his desk 20 mins later...

Spams are paranoid about security and are excessive in their zeal to enforce it and punishing those who bust the rules.

[foormort]

Is there a US exchange pilot in our Typhoon programme at the mo?

[Pontius Navigator]

During the Cod War with Iceland in the late 70s permission was sought and granted for colonials, RAAF, RCAF, to fly the sorties in the mighty hunter. I do not remember if the USN nav was cleared too.

All however were cleared for nuclear ops - B57s.

Curiously I once had to brief a USN P3 sqn on nuclear ops, using their oplans, as their organisatin had not seen fit to brief the mere aircrew. OTOH the Brit crews conducted regular practice exercises.

[Black 'n Yellar]

On a current exchange tour with the USMC I run into the Secret No Foreign thing all the time. They put it on everything as a matter of course, because that is what everyone else does. However, the only brief I have ever been asked to leave was the one where my CO was briefing the other pilots about what I could and could n't see. Apparently I am not allowed to know what I am not allowed to know about - if you follow my drift!!

[brickhistory]

But we really are trying to get out of the habit of stamping everything NOFORN. It will take a while to overcome years of habit, but it is happening.

[otterdog]

While at Luke AFB in the seventies, staffed many ops SSS (Staff Summary Sheets) which when returned were marked up with NOFORN XX Classification. Told my boss I couldn't followup on the red line comments, he didn't buy it! Made an honorary USAF Officer for the duration. Staffing was intense with the blue slips chasing you relentlessly for closure. Follow-on postings to COS and Tyndall merely reinforced the honorary status. You learn what to hear and see and what to forget!

Good times!

[buoy15]

Hitherto June 77, we had exchange SNCO's in the US system - the last 2 were Sgt Alan Mills and FS Pete Bree (acoustics operators). Some Senate members were never happy with non officer people working with military nuclear things. Allegedly the change was based on Hull no's. When the LA Class was introduced, Hull No (6**?) the exchange stopped due to a Senate motion - hence, NOFORN!
In truth, an aggressive US submarine quietening programme was introduced, and our lads had access to it, so they wanted them out
Pontious - Yes - USN exchange officers were not allowed on Cod War sorties in the event we had to emergency divert to Keflavik (a US Base) which might have caused a diplomatic incident! Ha!
In the mean time we were wired up for the NDB 550, but only if they said yes!

[roush]

What, if any, SNCO exchange programs are still about?

[raytofclimb]

Due to Spam rules, we've seen off the F3 exchange crews in recent years as they're not allowed to see parameters of certain missiles we've bought. Even though most of them used the same rocket on ther own nations jets. Doh

Ray.

[Pontius Navigator]

Buoy 15, yes, you remind me.

One day we were in the TSC when a briefing was due. As we were making the place untidy we were shooed into a room at the back of the ops room.

In there were all the mission replay computers. One of the aforementioned USN exchange SNCOs started to browse. An American came in, said we weren't supposed to look at the computers then, as we seemed to know what we were doing we might as well carry on. :}

Later we met one of the crews in the Brass Nut. They were looking out for murder. After X-hours on task, 30 minutes to go, the target was approaching CPA on their barrier. The relief P3 came on task and proceeded to 'top' every buoy in the barrier. Their timing was immaculate. They CPAd at the same time as the target.:{

And for those that dont figure the TLAs, sorry.