Maintenance

[Readability5]

Could you let me know your experience of maintenance organisations?
Is it possible to get quotes for annuals and CofA's? Or should I get used to knowing how much it will cost when I get the bill?
If you own an aircraft how do you manage your relationhip with your maintenance organisation, and how far away are they from your home airfield?
As a new member of a group the maintenance regime is the most confusing thing to deal with. How did you cope when you first became an owner?
Cheers
R5

[Mark 1]

You may get a quote for the inspection, based on 30-40 hrs work say, but they can't quote on any remedial work until they've done the inspection. Some tasks, like replacing cables, batteries etc may have 'standard' times, but generally it'll be charged at actual hours after work has been bone.
When you do get a quote, it won't usually include extras like radio annual, flight test, CAA charges, VAT, Oil/filters/sundries etc.

Rule 22 - It will always take longer and cost more - even when you take rule 22 into account.

[IO540]

One of the hardest things to learn upon becoming an aircraft owner is that so few businesses (and individuals) working in GA can be trusted.

The % is below any other business I've been remotely involved in, and this probably includes double glazing, central heating, you name it.

It starts with the dealer who sold you the plane (a lot of dealers are quite sharp) and you move on from there.

I think a part of the problem is that a lot of people are not making much money and, when they are busy and sending out invoices, they aren't getting paid. Another part is that aviation has a somewhat romantic air to it and thus attracts a lot of "character" types; the sort that dominate the airport bar with amazing stories but when it comes to something concrete they usually cannot be trusted as far as one can throw them (which isn't very far if they spend a lot of time in the airport bar).

A lot of people are awfully nice but simply clueless. My universal experience with a number of avionics outfits, even some high recommended and well known ones, is that they know very slightly more about aircraft electronics than your garage knows about car electronics (you follow the wiring diagram provided and if it doesn't work you give up).

Anyway, to answer your question :O the way to do this is to casually and in a totally non-committal way walk in to the office and ask for standard pricings for various types of service, for a particular aircraft type. Get it written down and keep it.

The cost of a 50hr check for a new C172 will be similar to a 30 year old C172, but whereas the new one will cost say £200 plus £40 oil plus very little else, the 30 year old one could be £200 plus £40 oil plus £1000 for fixing things which have been discovered.

An Annual for a complex SEP should be about £1500+VAT. Or about £1800+VAT if it is N-reg :O

Hourly rates in GA maintenance are a lot lower than car maintenance. This is curious, and is perhaps the result of a competitive climate, dominated by customers willing to fly 50-100nm to get a cheaper (or perhaps "less fussy"?? ;) ) 50hr check, and refusing to pay for anything if the bill comes to too much, which it often does due to the very high cost of some parts. This travelling for an away-service seems to be particularly prevalent among schools, operating under Transport CofA.

[A and C]

Most GA maintenance companys have not the first idea of customer service and communication and so when problems arise the customer is usualy the last to know, turning a job out on time is likely to never happen as there is no incentive of the maintenance company to do so.

I run a number of aircraft on lease and largly cover my companys maintenance so aircraft get fixed ASAP ( a week or so back a vac pump failed on a weekend and it was replaced within 2 hours of it being reported) but I have no end of trouble with contractors not meeting the time goals that they have set dispite the fact that invoices get paid almost by return, following a few years in the business the companys that have performed constantly well for my business and I am not conected with in any way except as a customer are Lees avionics, Phoenix avionics(for radio box repair) but so far the best service award has to go to Airpower who have overhauled three engines for my business in the last year or so two of these have been unschedualed and the turnround time has been seven days in all cases.

For parts supply Airparts at Booker are very good but for the items such as lubricants and chemicals that they don't stock I have had good service from LAS in Devon.

Most maintenance companys will give you a fixed price for a LAMS maintenance check added to this has to be AD's, defect rectification and parts, of late I have been shocked to find how one owner I know was taken to the cleaners by a maintenance company who told him that "one spark plug was faulty but they could find out which one so they changed all eight".

I have been in the past contracted to a flying group to "keep an eye" on there maintenance contractors, this helped both sides because my just being in the loop kept the maintenance company on there toes but I also recomended some preventative maintenance to the owners that the company felt would be seen as work generation, they were of course happy to carry out the extra work.

If I was a new owner I would get a licenced engineer on my side on to look over the work being done, not choose the cheapest quote and only use companys that other owners had recomended, I wish I could publish a hall of shame but I don't want to see PPrune in the courts

[QDMQDMQDM]

Base yourself at a friendly farm strip and do most of the maintenance on site with a friendly engineer who will let you assist in doing much of the donkey work such as unscrewing cowlings, changing the oil filter etc and you will cut costs considerably.

You will also learn a lot about your aircraft and be in a much better position to realise when things are amiss on your daily walkround.

QDM

P.S. I understand that at Booker the proprietors will not let owners do anything at all to their aircraft in the hangar. Outrageous!

[WorkingHard]

I am so surprised at the respondents experiences. It is so far removed from the relationship I have with the company that maintain my aircraft. I own a full IFR single that is in constant use and my maintenance company (of very many years) are honest, helpful and absolutely trustworthy and do what they promise. They also trust me which is an essential part of the equation. I pay when collecting an aircraft from any maintenance work and never have I faced anything they did not clear with me first. They will also highlight anything that will need attention in the near future but is quite within limits at this time. In other words no nasty surprises unless something unforseen breaks.

[IO540]

I understand that at Booker the proprietors will not let owners do anything at all to their aircraft in the hangar

This is very common. I have to take mine outside to do anything on it. Normally, "insurance" reasons are given :O

WorkingHard

You got lucky early on, perhaps. Others (like me) got lucky eventually, and others never get lucky. I am talking about finding a trustworthy maintenance firm of course, not getting laid :O

It's certainly very true that being able to do one's own maintenance is the key to getting a good job done and keeping costs down. I do my own 50hr checks (takes 3hrs plus cost of oil, £10 for the oil filter) but if you are a LAME (G-reg) or A&P (N-reg) you can do the whole lot, including Annuals. I don't know what will happen to individual LAMEs when EASA get into full swing.

[A and C]

You are quite correct, this is because an aircraft owner that was working on his aircraft left a soldering iron on and went for a cup of tea.
Had the fire that had been started by the unattended soldering iron not been discoverd by passer-by the whole hangar would have caught fire and I would have had wait in line to hit the pratt who would have destroyed my aircraft.

The rule is a real pain but at lease it protects my aircraft from idiots.

As for a 50 hour check taking 3 hours, you can't be looking at much. Im hard pushed to do a 50 hour on one of my own Cessna 152's in less than 6 hours. just to get the cowls off, clean and gap the 12 plugs on an IO540, cut open the filter can, change the oil and inspect the airfilter would take 2 hours..................... so just what do you look at on the airframe in ONE hour?

[stiknruda]

On my permit a/c it does take a full day to remove the cowls, inspection hatches, floorboards, oil change, oil filter clean, remove spats, inspect brakes, remove spinner, grease prop hub, inspect flying and landing wires, inspect and lubricate flying control system. I do all the work myself then have my inspector an A&C, go through it with me.

I normally don't get it back together to do the flight test until the following day!


Stik

[IO540]

Sorry A&C, 3hrs with two of us doing it. The other is an A&P friend.

Most of my 50hr check is visual inspection, which is quick. In fact most of the airframe inspection items listed in the 50hr list I do on every preflight check.

Cowling removal takes 5 mins for the top one, another 10 for the bottom one. (2 people are necessary) Prop spinner must be removed to safely remove the lower cowling without damage (most maint firms don't know this); this is 5 mins. Drain the oil out (including taking a sample for analysis) is an elapsed time of about 30 mins during which one does other things. Oil filter takes 10 mins including wirelocking the new one. Oil strainer at the base of the engine takes 20 mins including wirelocking.

Plugs come out in about 10 mins. They are iridium. The top ones are always spotless. The bottom ones always have some deposits but these come out with a special fine-wire tool. I run LOP all the time except climb so there is nothing else to clean. I'd guess 30 mins to do all 12 plugs.

We then run the engine with the cowlings off and check for any leaks.

The price list cost of a 50hr check on mine is £220+VAT I think, which is only a few hours' work. So it's about right.

Evidently some planes are easier to work on than others.

[stiknruda]

IO540 - I believe that I have twice as many wings, twice as many ailerons and getting my cowling off and on without scratching is easy with two but possible single handedly, however it will take almost three times as long!

Then in the engine bay I have several more hoses and fittings than you, unless of course your Cessna has an inverted system and smoke!:D

I change my oil and clean the screen every 25hrs - the waste is used to lube the hangar doors but also to augment my supply of creosote!;)

Stik

[smarthawke]

The shame of it is that most people will only flag up the bad experiences and very rarely compliment the better organisations.

Some try their hardest to do a proper job (without going over the top) and charge a reasonable rate (remeber the hourly rate is well under half what you are probably paying to have your car serviced).

Find a good manintenance outfit (by reputation - ask for registrations of customers aircraft perhaps and see how satisfied they are). Also, stick to one place so they get to know your aircraft. Don't think it's best to keep moving it around following the cheapest quote.

All organisations should provide quotes for the basic checks with parts and defect rectification/ADs etc charged on top. Keep in touch whilst the work is done and ask to see any offending part that needs replacing.

Some of us are aircraft owners and know only too well the costs involved!

[A and C]

So that would be 6 man hours .................. much closer to what I would have expected.

[IO540]

A 50hr check on a TB20 is a lot less than 6 hours. But it does need two people around to do it, even if just for the cowlings.

Next time I will time it :O

[javelin]

As for a 50 hour check taking 3 hours, you can't be looking at much. Im hard pushed to do a 50 hour on one of my own Cessna 152's in less than 6 hours. just to get the cowls off, clean and gap the 12 plugs on an IO540, cut open the filter can, change the oil and inspect the airfilter would take 2 hours..................... so just what do you look at on the airframe in ONE hour?


Lordy, an IO540 in a Cessna 152, bet that goes fast :E

[Readability5]

So can I assume that 110.5 hours labour for an annual check on a PA28 (before additional work) is a bit toppy?

[A and C]

You have been had!

The LAMS tasks on an annual check should take about 3.5 working days, in total about 28 man hours, depending on what is due in terms of AD's the cost will go up somewhat but the real unknown is the defects, i have seen these go past £10,000 in the worst case of PA28 corrosion that I have seen.

Parts are another thing that will push the price up if a landing gear leg fails the AD on the luggs the parts will cost you around £ 1600 and it will take about 12-14 hours of labour to fit.

[smarthawke]

I stand to be corrected here but in my experience it would take one person more than 3.5 days to carry out the LAMS Annual inspections on a PA28.

Just to do the engine inspection would be the best part of a day alone (ground run to ground run, cowlings on and off, oil, filters, compression check, exhaust, ignition timing etc etc).

As for the airframe that includes removing all the inspection panels, interior trim etc and refitting it after. Jacking the aircraft up (and lowering it after), removing all the wheels, regreasing wheel bearings, battery, instruments, filters etc etc. And you can't inspect anything until it's clean.

Then there is the paperwork.....

What you can't do is divide the total cost for the inspection by the hourly rate and say it is going to take x hours, iot never works out like that. Most maintenance companies give a fixed price for say fixed gear or retractable aircraft. Some aircraft are more labour intensive than others (Chipmunks, Bulldogs for instance).

If anyone claims they can do ALL the LAMS Annual tasks in 28 hrs their either very efficient or not doing it as well as it could be done!

Aircraft are labour intensive beasts, much more so than cars. The Annual inspection for a light aircraft isn't that much more than a modern equally expensive car, or am I not really in the real world?

Standing by to be corrected!

[IO540]

For what it's worth, the Annual on a TB20 is about 45 hours.

The other thing is that some firms are well organised. You take the plane in, and four engineers jump on it and get on with it and you get it back the same week. At others, most others I think, one man plods along for four weeks, in between other jobs.

[flapsandgeardown]

I have also had a poor experience with a A28 Annual - I am new to group ownership so this is my first example. Even if you assume the work was done correctly (which I don't) the documentation has been abysmal with the receipts and work sheets bearing no relation to either the check requirements or additional work. Anyone else had a similar experience? I would have expected this to be a tightly regulated and checked activity???

[QDMQDMQDM]

As for the airframe that includes removing all the inspection panels, interior trim etc and refitting it after. Jacking the aircraft up (and lowering it after), removing all the wheels, regreasing wheel bearings, battery, instruments, filters etc etc. And you can't inspect anything until it's clean.

At £45 or £50 quid an hour it makies huge sense to try and find a way to help with this kind of stuff yourself as an owner. Unless you have ££££ that is.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Several points: I've had millionaire owners begrudge me my very cheap rate for Permit renewal, until I invite them to take it to a JAR-145 outfit.....I'm not keen on owners mucking in unless I know them personally and know that they are competent with a spanner.I'd like to see an owner go down to his local VW/Audi/whatever main dealer (or his dentist or his solicitor or the farmer who raised his dinner...) and tell the mech that they're mucking in with them to save costs....there's two sides to the paperwork equation;I've had the aircraft's books handed to me in a plastic bag, completely out-of-date, check pages not filled in,etc....I've had owners carry out mods and only find out after the fact (quote: oh, yeah, I changed the prop.Guess I forgot to tell you.Sorry...)....some owners have a grossly unrealistic expectation of how long it can take.It's quite common for even minor tasks to eat up time,such as undoing and replacing screws and the like corroded into place because neglectful owners don't keep an eye on their aircraft!) and especially paperwork snags.Also, when the paperwork wends it's way to the authorities,it's out of my hands and phoning the Feds to try and speed things up only irritates them!
There's more to it than just spanner-turning!
regards
TDD

[jeppsbore]

Well said TDD
Those of us in GA engineering see so many A/C that only come in for annuals as they don't want the expense of trusting their 50's / 150's to a 145 organisation, how wrong could they be? most of the exorbitant annual cost is going over and re-doing SB's / AD's and routine maintenance that may well have been carried out but has never been recorded in the A/C's history so as a certifying engineer you have to re-do the task to satisfy yourself that it has been done.
I'm all for customer participation but only on a verbal basis, i.e. keep the customer informed of any problems as soon as they arise and invite them in to take a look if they want and you soon build up a relationship of trust, but never would I let a customer work on his own A/C during a check. What he does to the A/C when he takes it away is his business, I have no control over that.
IO540
I agree your 50 hr inspection is little more than a preflight if done on the N reg, it is however a fair bit more involved on the G reg under LAMS. As an aside your friendly A+P is not doing you any favours if he lets you run the engine without cowlings for a leak check. Most manufactuters including Socata state run engine with cowling in place at 1200 rpm for proper cooling for two minutes then remove top cowling and check for leaks. Any ground run without cowlings can only be doing damage to your engine. Just a bit of friendly advise.
JB

[IO540]

jeppsbore

I do the 50hr check exactly as per Socata maintenance manual. Every item is ticked off.

I know some people disagree but think of this:

a) the FAA oversees about 10x more GA planes than the rest of the known universe, and there is no evidence of problems they have which the CAA fleet doesn't, and

b) The manufacturer is better placed to decide what should be done, rather than some generalised CAA checklist which will, at best, be generalised.

One can argue with this but it soon resembles the argument that all convicted child molesters should be executed upon conviction, on the grounds that one cannot take any risk.

Statistically, the % of incidents attributable to lack of maintenance is very low. The % of incidents attributable to defective maintenance is also very low, but these numbers are probably comparable in the order of magnitude. I know this sounds cynical but if you take your G-reg in for an Annual after every 10hrs airborne time, you are probably increasing your chances of it plummeting compared to it seeing the JAR145 firm only once a year - simply because the chance of somebody messing it up is greater.

Not to mention the very obvious fact (obvious to any owner who started off with something new) that most damage to an aircraft is done during maintenance. Screws chewed up, threads damaged, cowlings cracked, bits of composites chipped off, windows scratched, etc. Apart from stone chips on the prop, every piece of damage I see was done during maintenance.

There is no problem doing a short run with cowlings off. I have an EDM700 which monitors CHTs and EGTs for all 6 pots. No point in removing top cowling only; most leaks will be on the bottom. Lyco's recommendations are all based on a near total lack of engine instrumentation, which is quite reasonable.

[javelin]

Having owned around 10 aeroplanes thus far, half PFA, half CAA, the majority of horrors have come from M3 establishments.

That said, I know of many establishments who are thoroughly diligent and offer superb customer service so this is not a knocking post.

Worst offenders - maintenance organisations attached to flying clubs - keep them flying, spend nowt !

I've had machine screws replaced with self tappers, a fabric repair signed into the logbook as satis - it was silver gaffer tape, sewn on. An inverted valve seized solid - the aeroplane had just been given a new C of A and flight tested !

On the PFA side, I had one aeroplane with a fresh permit, after the delivery flight I noticed a bit of oil and a nasty exhaust smell - the manifold on No3 was cracked 40% round and there were 4 serious oil leaks.

I have been fortunate to work with a very good engineer for the last few years, we have a good relationship, I work, he checks and signs and I pay for his time. Not everyone is able or willing to do this but it certainly works well for some.

Get a recommendation, visit the premises, talk to the mechanics and the engineer - don't forget, there are probably only 1 or 2 guys who sign the stuff off, the rest are paid mechanics with varying amounts of experience.

If you are not happy, write and document everything and don't be afraid to consult the CAA if you don't get a reasonable result.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hello again,
One problem is that the flow of GA engineers is drying up because the pay and conditions are often miserable and not worth the effort of going thru all the exams and training.The JAA exams aren't making it any easier.Mechs prefer to work for the airlines because the pay's a lot better, conditions are cleaner and you don't have to argue with the owner and you get training courses from time to time! In fact, many mechs are leaving aviation to work in other trades and I know a few that have become pilots.It's better to be clean and indoors up the front than lying under a Cessna, not to mention the much higher level of respect accorded pilots.GA has to improve T and Cs to retain the existing people, not to mind tomorrow's generation.
regards
TDD

[A and C]

Following the comments from Smarthawk I have had a look at the way I do the maintenance on my fleet, the aircraft do spend about 3.5 days in the hangar to compleat the LAMS annual but as I don't have to allocate the time to a customer I had not been looking at the items already prepaired to enable the minimum of time out of service.

I have a number of parts such as spark plugs, airfliters, brake pads and mainwheels that are ready serviced and so these are just a "part swop" at the time of the check. this cuts the aircraft down time but of course the work on the removed parts is being carried out while the aircraft are in service, the bottom line is that these parts along with the paperwork take about another 1.5 man days to re-work.

I don't think that my manhour estimate is to far adrift from that of smarthawk but one advantage that I have is that I dont have to work around other people in the hangar.