MoD cost cuts 'will put troops in peril'

[Sideshow Bob]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/15/nmod15.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_15052006.

I can understand using kit that is in storage, but 10 million each to refurbish, for a cab that is well past it’s best. Why not scrap the PFI’s that are only making old men rich (FSTA 14 aircraft 21 billion ect) and buy some decent kit to keep people alive rather than putting lives at risk by penny pinching on kit that is needed.

[Pontius Navigator]

Now there is a blast from the past:

<<But his outburst drew a furious riposte from Air Commodore Eric Wright CBE DFC DFM, who flew Hurricanes with 605 Squadron in the Battle of Britain. "If we didn't have the RAF in the 1940s we would all be saying 'Heil Hitler' now," he said.>>

Only 86, amazing. He was Mr Pastry, OC Coningsby Wing and later moved the entire wing to Cottesmore. Now that was like an expeditionary air wing. The whole wing was even slatted to deploy to the Far East in one exercise.

[[email protected]]

Now there is a blast from the past:
<<But his outburst drew a furious riposte from Air Commodore Eric Wright CBE DFC DFM, who flew Hurricanes with 605 Squadron in the Battle of Britain. "If we didn't have the RAF in the 1940s we would all be saying 'Heil Hitler' now," he said.>>
Only 86, amazing. He was Mr Pastry, OC Coningsby Wing and later moved the entire wing to Cottesmore. Now that was like an expeditionary air wing. The whole wing was even slatted to deploy to the Far East in one exercise.

I don't see any mention of an Air Commodore Eric Wright anywhere in the Telegraph article. :confused:

[Not_a_boffin]

Direct result of the shenanigans in putting off FASH, then SABR and now FRC. It is ludicrous that the most overworked helo force we have is being forced into worn out HAS6s. Typical of SMART procurement - we can't make a decision so lets put it off until production lines have gone cold and we can be charged startup costs.

Absolute madness - you have to feel sorry for the lads & lasses in JHC.

[Green Flash]

Question.
What have we got in the UK that can go down the Gulf, whose job can be done in UK by the slowKing?:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

Grunt, Mrs PN had half-inched the paper and I had to make do with the electronic version. I pulled the quote directly from the link at th etop of the page.

Just goes to show, if you read one version of the paper it will differ from the same issue printed elsewhere or earlier in the day.

[Baskitt Kase]

I liked this quote from the electronic editionThe defence budget has fallen from £34.6 billion in 1999-2000 to £31 billion in 2004-05 in real terms, putting pressure on the armed forces at a time when senior officers are issuing warnings about overstretch.Although, I'm certain that pr00ne will be along shortly to show that as the sustained investment that we keep being told about... ;)

[Compressorstall]

The issue is whether the UK wants to be able to play the game 'Air Manoeuvre'. The SH Force and CHF are vital elements, but the money to replace the aircraft is burned up in sustaining existing ops and paying for the UORs that represent equipment that a lot of the types should have had already. The HAS6s might have been good value if we were still up to our eyes in NI, but what we really need now is new helicopters with the ability to lift lots even in hot and high. Anyone who considers the SK for Afghanistan doesn't have an atlas or know the effects of hot and high.:ugh:

[BEagle]

Don't confuse them with facts!

Are there any Whirlwinds in storage?

:rolleyes:

[The Helpful Stacker]

They've got a spare Wessex in 60(R) Sqn's hanger, perhaps we could send that to the Gulf.

Proper helicopters those, with built-in RTR refueller heater next to the front refuel point.;)

[The Gorilla]

I can quote Pr00ne now:
"Don't believe everything you read in the papers"
:}

[monkeybumhead]

There's a couple of sea kings, a gazelle and possibly a wessex at the shropshire training place formerly known as RAF Cosford. Perhaps they could be nurtured back into service.

[The Helpful Stacker]

There's a couple of sea kings, a gazelle and possibly a wessex at the shropshire training place formerly known as RAF Cosford. Perhaps they could be nurtured back into service.

Compulsory purchase on the International Helicopter Museum?

Just around the corner from Wastelands but a lot cheaper and available now.

[[email protected]]

The RAF has been crying out for more helicopters for years since every conflict needs loads of them to transport troops and supplies. What do we get instead - bloody useless fighters to keep the top brass happy and BAE in business.

[NURSE]

why not order another squadron or 2 of merlin they appear to work well in the gulf. I'm sure 32Sqns A109's could be found a role oh yea that would leave President Blair with out a helecopter

[Compressorstall]

Ahh Crab - you forget that we are a fast jet Air Force. Lots of money has been spent convincing people who like to be convinced by very convincing consultants who can produce some very convincing graphs that convince them that we probably have too many SH because we aren't using them properly, or in a convincing manner. Having listened to these highly paid convincing consultants, they are great until they highlight the fact that they haven't a clue what we are really doing. No-one has told me to project combat power in the most economical way possible - I always thought we had to convince the enemy that they were going to lose, not spend our time convincing ourselves that because the politicians would like us to do the 'war thing' more cheaply that we should continually do it on a shoestring. All the consultants we have paid for would probably buy loads more Chinooks or Merlins, or a button for the Typhoon.

This rant has been fuelled by top quality wine on special offer from Tescos.

[WhiteOvies]

Last time I was down at HMS Sultan (Gosport) there was a hangar full of Jungly Wessex's in fairly good nick. Used for training maintainers on but all looked recoverable. This was about 4/5 years ago though.

[Rapscallion]

It seems you have the public on side, sideshow! From letters page of yesterday's Torygraph:
Sir - Perhaps if the Ministry of Defence pen-pushers were prised out of their £1,000 swivel chairs and made to do some combat missions, the quality of the equipment they offer our Armed Forces might improve, as no doubt would the delivery times (News, May 15).
Alan Marco, Watford, Herts

[RileyDove]

I remember years ago a company in the West Country wishing to build a machine called the Black Hawk! We could have had shed loads of those by now sitting in storage waiting for Tony's latest exploit!

[Lee Jung]

No names or locations, but yesterday the most senior of soldiers was meeting a reception line of aircrew:
" So Flt Lt, what do you fly? "
"I'm with the Merlin Flight out here Sir"
"Ah good...(points to the mighty king).. Not that piece of Junk then. So Lt what do you do out here?"
"I fly that piece of Junk Sir".
General politely shoved down rest of receiving line before 9 mils drawn
This happened yesterday and has severely upset the boys. The plan for the Sea King will see it upgraded to Puma speed, payload increased by 25% with much improved H&H performance. Let's face it fellas - we have to make the best of what w've got. If we could can 'Future Lynx, which we could by giving the RN a missile for Merlin and plonking the ones we have on the back of ships, and 212 for the army (nothing more capable is needed) then the badly overstreched Sea Kings and the moderately tasked (on 1st tuesday of the month) Pumas could be replaced by something decent.
This isn't going to happen because of Wastelands and the narrow minded attitude of Daavn and the FF/DD mafia.
Rant over - why do we need 220 cold war eurofighters btw? Prestige?

[RileyDove]

JPA = x million

Eurofighter = xx million

Decent support helicopters when you need the = priceless!

[Compressorstall]

Spot the UK operation where there aren't helicopters...

[rafloo]

errrr....How about Operation Phillis.... or Operation Fresco....


are there any more? Im sure we could compile a list of Operations without Helicopters.

[Evalu8ter]

To answer Lee Jung's elegant point:- we need 232 TypHoons to secure the future of the RAF into the hands of the single-seat Tactical Fighter mafia & to ensure that there are plenty of non-executive director "jobs for the boys" for their airshipfulnesses when they retire. We should just get with the program, SH isn't a core airpower role to the RAF, why do you think they were more than happy to sell us down the river to Land Command in 1999? Interestingly, this focus on tactical fighters might not do the RAF any good in the long run. "Global reach, global power" was the USAF mantra a few years back, and they can do it too with the triad of strategic bombers and a large tanker force. We have neither. The nearest we have is the MRA4, which threatens the GR4 force by it's ability to loiter, ID and prosecute tgts in a permissive RF environment without the use of tankers. Unfortuanately, at just over 3Bn quid for 12 ac we could almost have got B2s from Northrop.....So we're committed to a short range FJ force dependant on HNS, apart from JCA, which could be run in toto by the RN off the carriers. Soooo, where does this leave the RAF? Full of cold war ac (TypHoon/GR4) and cold war weapons (Brimstone) but with the upper echelons reserved for the FJ community and plenty of CSPs for leaving air ranks to get stuck into. And guess what, it's the SH/CHF that pay for all of this by being tasked to do the impossible by the ungrateful in the obsolescent platforms that we currently employ. Solution to the NAOs report? Scrap the Puma, Sea King and Lynx. Hire 212s to do the menial stuff, have a small fleet of squirrels so that the Generals don't have to get in a landrover, and equip the SH/CHF with a blend of Chinook (second hand "Ds" of the US?), Merlin (to keep WHL from bleating) and a small number of Cougar/NH90 to do the jobs that the Puma currently does. Oh, and let's pay for a proper DAS on all our platforms.
Standing back, opening bottle of quaffing red.

[Jobza Guddun]

The Tim Collins thread and this one have spawned furious and passionate arguments and inter-service bitching - FJ v RW, Typhoon v Carriers, Army v Navy v RAF, Global reach v don't bother coming to the war anymore etc ad infinitum.

What a pity you all haven't found a way of channelling it down the same route together against the :mad: clowns who have led us into this mess.

The politicians will be hugging themselves in delight reading this site.

[rafloo]

the :mad: clowns who have led us into this mess


What mess? Are the Armed Forces in a Mess....or has the RAF just realised what life in the Armed Forces really means? Ive been a serviceman for close on 30 years and life in the RN has always been like this. When I joined my First Squadron we were gapped an IRI and an HWI. That was a long time ago....and today, we are still gapped but we have learnt to live with it, learnt ways to avoid the pitfalls of being sent to do back to back tours ( Between 1981 and 1983 I was in the UK for 6 weeks)....and we have discovered new ways of fudging the figures so that rather than carrying gaps you shoulder them.

The equipment we use nowadays is fantastic compared to that of 25 yrs ago. We used to eat off Tin plates FFS.... the Old flying boots were blooming awful....remember those helmets which were designed for a rock ape? What about the watches that lost 3 minutes every hour...


One thing that hasn't changed in the RN is the people.....they remain the funniest, hardest and most proudest bucnh of servicemen I have had the honour to etc.... They fight hard and play hard and both fight and play to win.

So, I dont think the Armed Forces are in a mess....certainly no more so than they were 30 yrs ago. But I do think that all this bitching and moaning from RAF types shows that the RAF is slowly and gently waking up to life in the Armed Forces.

[VitaminGee]

I note that the Reds have now been cleared to display this season and are kicking off with a 3 week tour of the Middle and Far East - so, all's well in the world then! :rolleyes:

[topgas]

Are there any Whirlwinds in storage?


Don't like to worry you, but I was passing through Akrotiri last week (to watch the Akrotiri 10s) and the Whirlwind gate guardian has gone . . .

[FJJP]

God help me, but I actually agree with a lot of what rafloo has just said. Most of it.

Some things never change, like right royal screw-ups in kit procurement and supply.

We have never had enough money or kit to do the job [have we?].

We're always saying 'it was never like this in the halycon days of old' [weren't we?].

And he's right about the people - they're still the most fantastic bunch you could ever wish to work with. [We've always had to suffer the odd T*****].

But it is just not the case that the RAF a bunch of whiners and moaners - have you tried ARRSE or RUM RATION lately?

The overwhelming tenent of most of the topics on all 3 sites is about the way the Forces are equipped and treated by our Lords and Masters - pretty badly too frequently for it to pass without comment. Stories of inadequate kit or shortages or troops being vilified etc are enough to cause many of us to blow a fuse and burst into print to vent our anger/frustration.

Because we can do very little about it.

But when something like the Herc Foam affair shows signs of success, well, much applause all round.

Few things have changed over the years, except the roll-over-and-accept syndrome that used to pervade the Forces in the days when you were expected to do as you were told and not allowed to express an opinion.

That, and better communication, like in internet forums [fora?].

[buoy15]

Reminds me of a visit by the Air Commode CIO, as it was in 1975
On entering 201 Sqn (Nimrod) crew room, he asked his PSO, " What are all these SNCO's doing here?!
Piss poor briefing eh?
It all went quite well from there on !
Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!

[Pontius Navigator]

Buoy 15, that narrows it down a bit. I was on crew 7.

[Navaleye]

I think there are a couple of spare Wessex 5s on a glacier on South Georgia.

[Letsby Avenue]

Unfortunately Tony's modern adventures abroad require troops, troops and more troops plus shedloads of helicopters to move them around. peeing god knows how many billions on 292 one seat aircraft is a waste of time - we need C17s. Refurbed Comets, Minesweepers, Frigates, Apache and the like doesn't really help. Let's stop buying useless toys from BAE for a few years, buy some decent body armour and ship everyone who gets issued a weapon (from all three services) out to IRAQ for a quick six month roulement.

Perhaps we can involve everyone below the rank of let's say... one star. That should focus a few minds.